Cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to?

[sidney2718]

But is the love right? My love tells me "Don't cheat". Your love (and my WW's) tells you "It's ok if he does not find out".

 

At the moment it happens it is often the case that sexual fever is running full tilt and one is thinking only of one's wants and needs and not their spouse.

 

None of what we've been writing applies to everyone. My point from the start has been that many many spouses have weak spots and the situation can get away from them. That's the only way I can explain the very large number of infidelities that take place in real life. Most of those folks aren't evil at all.

 

And I'm not even talking about those situations where one spouse has basically destroyed the married due to their behavior. That happens too.

[sidney2718]

VBM

 

Some time later I did meet a couple of guys, who were totally into having sex with married women. Have experienced how much of a turn on it was to have sex with another man's wife I understood where they were coming from.

I did not see them as psychopaths. Like myself they had found married women to be an easy source of great sex. And at the same time they reduced the worry of them wanting to develop into a permanent relationship.

In talking to them they had polished their skills into a science. They indeed had developed a script of what steps to follow.

With the first becoming her friend. Unlike with single women, men fear falling into the friend zone, with married women, that is your first goal. How many women claim we are just friends. To them is it true.

From there you try to develop a closer, relationship, more like a confidant, and in that way she will give you hints how to seduce her. You listen for the emotional holes with in their relationship.

At first you do not attack her husband. To do that you are saying she made a bad choice. What you do is wait for her to attack her husband, and still, you wait and try to take his side, try to point out his good points.

The guys were very much in tune with understanding love chemicals and how to use them. All along you are paying her compliments, looking for new ways to compliment her, keep buttering her up.

And be patient and wait for the right moment to attack. By that time, her body is filling her brain with love chemicals, and it is too late.

 

Gosh, you are so right! So very very right.

 

These things do not apply to everyone. Every situation is different. One thing that I do know is that when the folks involved get physical, they are NOT thinking about their spouses. They are having a deep ache soothed by something they've missed for months if not years.

[sidney2718]

If this is true, why don't all women in unhappy, long-term marriages cheat?

 

All of them, especially the attractive ones, get hit on by "players" of all skill levels on a regular basis. Why don't they fall under the spell of the "love chemicals"?

 

Maybe the answer has less to do with the skill of the hunter and more to do with the character of the prey?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Folks are all different. Nobody has said that there are universal "techniques" that will work on any woman. There aren't any such techniques.

 

But the fact is that many women in unhappy long-term marriages do cheat, as do the men in similar situations.

 

My personal guess is that a significant number of affairs are never discovered.

[2.50 a gallon]

"significant number of affairs are never discovered"

I totally agree, in this and with another co-worker, their husbands never knew. Neither was in love with me, all they wanted was an occasional fix in the sex department, and then to go back to their families.

Another oddity in infidelity is the number of women who end up in affairs with men that they are not attracted to. The sex is terrible, but they keep coming back for more bad sex, just to hear the words of affirmation that the OM is spewing.

Edited March 17, 2015 by 2.50 a gallon

[2.50 a gallon]

At age 27 I met a clerk at the local sporting goods store. For me I was instantly attracted, she had a face of a young Sofia Loren. And I still remember how her coal black hair, turned to a reddish hue, from the over head lights. I was probably in that store on average of at least twice a month for the past two years, and oddly we have never met, as the night we met was her one year anniversary at that store.

From there on every time I went into the store she was there, and over the next 3 months she must have turned down my requests for a date at least half a dozen times. As she put it, I was too short, too old (27 to her 22), too poor (Me a blue jeans and T-shirt guy, while she preferred her men to wear business suits) and too white (she was Hispanic)

Then came a Wednesday when work said they were closing the next day and take Thursday off. On the way home I stopped to pick up a supply of night crawlers to do some fishing at the river on my day off. Upon ringing me up, I casually asked if she wanted to go fishing with me the next day. To my surprise she said yes.

What I did not know was that she had always wanted to try fishing, and she had never been to the river. Also, she had a couple of big dates planned for that weekend and it would give her a chance to work on her tan. Friday night with her BF of over a year, she was considering marrying him. Saturday night, was with the son of a local politician and he was taking her to a grand and fancy ball for the sons and daughters of the mover and shakers of my city. She had already sewed herself a fancy gown.

Sexually, she had had sex with but 2 other guys, including BF #1 and had already decided that BF #2 if he played his cards right on Saturday night was going to get lucky. A short fling with him and she would probably agree to marry #1.

On the way to the river she again lets me know that we will never be BF and GF, because of the too's.

It was a day I did everything right. We caught fish, we went for a swim, and I showed off muy masculinity by horsing around with her in the water. That ended when I saw my chance and got in a first kiss.

I started a fire, and cooked some hot dogs. Again another first for her. Then we took a long walk along the shallows checking out tadpoles, (her first) and baby fish. River Romantic setting was working on her.

Late in the afternoon we returned to fishing and after catching a couple of more decided to head home. And she wanted to eat the fish she had caught to accepted an invitation back to my place for a fish fry.

As we got to my car, I was surprised when she grabbed and began kissing me.

Once back at my place, with the help of a bottle of wine to go with the fish, the kissing escalated to us taking a shower together before I took her home late at night. For the first time in her life she had had unprotected sex. She had also for the first time had a man go south.

That night after dropping her off I went home contented with the idea that I might not be #1 #2 but I was at least on the page.

At 5:30 the next evening, I was shocked to find her at my door, with a fresh pizza in hand and wanting a repeat of last nights fun. BF #1. whom she was supposed to have a date with, had already been told he was history. And she told me all about the ball and how she had sown a gown for it, and asked me for permission to go, promising she would be back in my bed after she got home from the ball.

She was now mine.

We almost married, we were engaged for almost 18 months, but alas her older sister could not get over me being too white. I refused to set a date until that was resolved and after waiting for 18 months, her sister won and she called off the wedding

Edited March 17, 2015 by 2.50 a gallon

[drifter777]

2.50 a gallon: What's your point? Every girl I ever dated was very attractive and all of them had a boyfriend when I met them. Every one of them liked flirting with me enough to break up with him and start seeing me. That's where I first discovered that most girls need to either be actively involved (cheating) with another guy - or at least have one lined up that they are 90% sure will jump them the moment they find out she is now unattached. So you found a girl who was not satisfied with her current romantic life that likely went way beyond just sex. Once she knew she might never see you again she panicked a bit and decided to try you on for size (no pun intended). Low and behold, she had fun and was confident that you were totally in to her so she dumped her other BF(s) and started up with you. Typical story that I bet many, many people her at LS have experienced. The thing is, once a woman marries another man this behavior is what it is: selfish, dishonest, immature, and tremendously hurtful to her husband. When she's on the hunt for a husband it is expected that she's going to toss a few guys aside that turn out to be less than the man she want to settle down with. Changing your mind after that is fine - it could happen to any of us - but when you change your mind you need to have that talk with your H and decide whether you want to work on the marriage or end it. You don't get to do what you did when you were a young girl and have a guy all lined up from an EA or PA before you dump husband. That must be tempting to many women because they fear confrontation or being alone or financial issues so they don't want to end the marriage without a safety net, but doing that is morally wrong and shows a lack of empathy usually associated with a narcissist.

[carhill]

I think the answer is simple, we're defined by our actions.

 

The action was cheating but in one case one apparently didn't love their spouse and in another did. Is it your assertion that character is strictly delineated by actions?

 

 

Because "those who cannot learn from history are" headed for a heap of future trouble...

 

So, your assertion is that we should learn from whether a person loves their spouse or not as an aspect of cheating and, if we don't, we're headed for a heap of future trouble?

 

Or, is this non-responsive?

 

The tone of your posts indicate you adjudicate cheating is 'bad' or a 'heap of trouble'; stipulating to that, the topic isn't about it being 'a heap of trouble', rather goes to state of mind and exploring that aspect, asserting cheating means one doesn't love their spouse the way they're supposed to. I agreed with that premise. Do you agree or disagree and why?

[truncated]

"significant number of affairs are never discovered"

I totally agree, in this and with another co-worker, their husbands never knew. Neither was in love with me, all they wanted was an occasional fix in the sex department, and then to go back to their families.

Another oddity in infidelity is the number of women who end up in affairs with men that they are not attracted to. The sex is terrible, but they keep coming back for more bad sex, just to hear the words of affirmation that the OM is spewing.

 

 

Maybe this has more to do with the quality of the women you were seducing than it does anything else.

 

There are many women and men who might not be happy in their marriage but they won't cheat, and there are some who will.

 

if you were the great and wonderful seducer of women that you say you were, then like any predator, you would instinctively seek out prey who you felt were weak and would fall to your charms, while ignoring the ones who wouldn't. this could mean that for every one women who you feel would cheat, there could be 20, 60, 100 or more who wouldn't.

[Noirek]

2.50 a gallon: What's your point? Every girl I ever dated was very attractive and all of them had a boyfriend when I met them. Every one of them liked flirting with me enough to break up with him and start seeing me. That's where I first discovered that most girls need to either be actively involved (cheating) with another guy - or at least have one lined up that they are 90% sure will jump them the moment they find out she is now unattached. So you found a girl who was not satisfied with her current romantic life that likely went way beyond just sex. Once she knew she might never see you again she panicked a bit and decided to try you on for size (no pun intended). Low and behold, she had fun and was confident that you were totally in to her so she dumped her other BF(s) and started up with you. Typical story that I bet many, many people her at LS have experienced. The thing is, once a woman marries another man this behavior is what it is: selfish, dishonest, immature, and tremendously hurtful to her husband. When she's on the hunt for a husband it is expected that she's going to toss a few guys aside that turn out to be less than the man she want to settle down with. Changing your mind after that is fine - it could happen to any of us - but when you change your mind you need to have that talk with your H and decide whether you want to work on the marriage or end it. You don't get to do what you did when you were a young girl and have a guy all lined up from an EA or PA before you dump husband. That must be tempting to many women because they fear confrontation or being alone or financial issues so they don't want to end the marriage without a safety net, but doing that is morally wrong and shows a lack of empathy usually associated with a narcissist.

 

Do you know how completely sexist this sounds? Even in my case where I am being a terrible wife it isn't to replace my husband. I can't do better than him. But before my husband I had only a few not serious boyfriends. And they were always a long ways apart. I really can't think of a single girlfriend of mine who exhibitied the behaviour you saddle women with. I do have a question. Did your wife break up with her boyfriend to be with you?

[Mr. Lucky]

Or, is this non-responsive?

 

The tone of your posts indicate you adjudicate cheating is 'bad' or a 'heap of trouble'; stipulating to that, the topic isn't about it being 'a heap of trouble', rather goes to state of mind and exploring that aspect, asserting cheating means one doesn't love their spouse the way they're supposed to. I agreed with that premise. Do you agree or disagree and why?

 

I'd agree that by your literal interpretation of the topic my answer is non-responsive.

 

I neither think about nor care whether or not my spouse "loved" me while committing infidelity. My focus - and what I'd hope to offer reciprocally in a good marriage - is on her actions and how she interacts me, with cheating being one of the worst possible examples of that. Her state of mind is an unknown and open to future revision.

 

My xWS's feelings while cheating, whether "love" or anything else, were immaterial. So my answer to "agree or disagree" would be "don't care"...

 

Mr. Lucky

[2.50 a gallon]

drifter

 

 

As for her love life she was satisfied with her romantic partner #1. After dating for over a year, they had began talks of getting married. But at age 22 she had dated just a few guys, and was still not ready to give up dating. So before she said yes, she wanted to make sure she had dating out of her system. Then #2 came along and he was in a position to open doors for her that most women never get a chance to go thru. She had already decided that he would be her last fling, before saying yes to a marriage proposal.

Prior to our first date, she had never flirted with me. In fact she repeatedly told me she was not attracted to me and I was wasting me time. She even reminded me of that on the way out to the river. That was one of the reasons she agreed to go with me, as she felt there was no danger of getting emotionally involved with me.

In short she was using me to learn to fish, to get a free trip out to the river, and to improve on her tan, for the coming weekend.

What she did not count on was the romance of the river. She had a great time doing many things for the first time. Every one of which triggered her body to begin the manufacture of love chemicals. Then we did spend some time working on our tans, and just talking. Again I said all of the right things, about religion, my out look on life, the things I wanted to do and see in my life, and how I was frustrated at not being able to find Mrs. Right, and how much I wanted to find her and start a family. By the end of the day she had a great fun day exploring things she had never tried. More love chemicals are hitting her brain.

That night when we made love, it was the best sex she had ever had, that and I did not use protection. Now the love chemicals are in full production and even more importantly they have been customized solely for me.

In a period of 24 hours she had gone from not being attracted to me, to being totally infatuated with me.

[2.50 a gallon]

truncated

 

In the year following the break up of my marriage, when I slipped over to the dark side, I only slept with about half a dozen married women.

 

I know you are not going to like this! In each and every case, had their husbands remembered the "love and cherish" part of the wedding vows, they never would have had anything to do with me.

 

As for the weak women that I have had in my life, most have been college educated. That included several nurses, a second grade teacher, an assistant principal, a regional manager of a large title company, bank tellers, and several business women. One was a CPA, that was half owner in a new and up and coming accounting firm.

My last serious relationship prior to my current GF of 20 years, was a Berkley graduate, with degrees in microbiology, and a miner in math, then went back for a second degree in chemistry. Still not satisfied she had gone back to school for a third degree in computers. She was working as the lead software engineer in a small software company. She also owned a quarter of the company. At age 30 she was already a millionaire several times over. I have since heard that when they sold out five years later, at her age of 35 she was worth close to 50 million.

As for a seducer, you would be surprised at how many woman came knocking on my door.

[Lion Heart]

If this is true, why don't all women in unhappy, long-term marriages cheat?

 

All of them, especially the attractive ones, get hit on by "players" of all skill levels on a regular basis. Why don't they fall under the spell of the "love chemicals"?

 

Maybe the answer has less to do with the skill of the hunter and more to do with the character of the prey?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Thanks Mr Lucky, exactly what I was thinking. And so far as the elaborate professional quals a person has, this has about as much to do with their depth of character as cheating Presidents, alcoholic judges or child molesting priests .... whatever.

Infidelity, like alcoholism and other "issues" knows no social status. These issues occur with ANYONE of shallow or immature or selfish character and the rest.

 

My marraige was unhappy, so I worked hard on many levels to improve it. Yes I have 3 degrees too, so what. That didn't make me happy just more financially secure as I have employment because of those degrees.

 

The weird thing about my marraige is that for the past 15y I HAVE been hit on heaven knows how many times. My husband trusted me completely. It wasn't the skills of the players that were lacking, no way, it was ME standing strong on behalf of my marriage that kept me faithful. The things I've had to say to these men were incredulous. I've even been hit on in FRONT of my H, standing next to him at a counter paying a restaurant bill!

 

I consider my H far better looking than me, though never have I noticed him getting ANY attention. Once was all it took and he grabbed it and ran with it. This was when things were good in our marriage!

It has since come out that part of the A (besides his obvious narcissism and entitlement issues) was to "get me back" (lack of self esteem).

I barely ever told him about any attention I got. No need. I handled it. The hits in front of him were too obvious, but hey! I didn't ASK to be hit on and it was certainly deflected. He knows

about ALL the other times I honoured him now!

 

Sure infidelity is all about "not loving your spouse the way you're supposed to". Plus not honouring them, respecting them or themselves. It's multi layered at times.

 

Sometimes it's quite simply because they WANTED TO CHEAT.

 

This is what sickens me. The whole sordid package of what follows an animal urge. Urrgh.

 

Lion Heart.

[Raines]

truncated

 

In the year following the break up of my marriage, when I slipped over to the dark side, I only slept with about half a dozen married women.

 

I know you are not going to like this! In each and every case, had their husbands remembered the "love and cherish" part of the wedding vows, they never would have had anything to do with me.

 

 

 

So what? That's not an excuse. I didn't get my needs met by me x-wife. Did I cheat? No. Thought didn't even enter my mind.

 

 

If it was that bad, they should have divorced their husbands.

[Meatballsmom]

"They should have divorced their husbands"

 

 

Divorce is not always the answer

 

 

Almost 30 years ago, I did exactly that and moved myself and my 2 kids away from my alcoholic, abuser of a husband. As a SAHM wife I had a high school diploma and no job experience. So I could not afford an attorney. I had to work at least 2 and sometimes 3 jobs to keep food on the table and a roof over their head. I was also forced to move to a bad part of town.

 

 

My daughter had just started high school. My work schedule had me going to work at 3 in the morning and returning until after 5. Time not there, meant my daughter who had been making great grades got into drugs and dropped out of school. She never went back, is now 41 years old and lives off of the state.

 

 

That was just the first step in the cascade of events. My daughter got my son into drugs. Sixteen years ago, my son commited suicide on New Years Day.

 

 

Because of my daughters drug problem, six years ago the state took away my only granddaughter. We have united, now that she is 18, but from the sixth grade on I had no idea where she lived. I have missed out on so much of her life.

[Mr. Lucky]

Divorce is not always the answer

 

 

Almost 30 years ago, I did exactly that and moved myself and my 2 kids away from my alcoholic, abuser of a husband.

 

I'm sorry to hear of the challenges you and your family faced.

 

But you have don't know how things would have played out had you stayed with an abusive husband. Doubt that they'd have been better and certainly could have been worse...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Raines]

"They should have divorced their husbands"

 

 

Divorce is not always the answer

 

 

 

But cheating is?

[2.50 a gallon]

I do not know all of her financials. What I do know is that they had bought their home in a super nice neighborhood, some 15 years earlier. Their mortgage payment was around $500. To move her two kids out into a small 2 bedroom apartment, in a not so nice neighborhood you looking at $2000 a month minimum. She would have gotten some child support, but not enough to make up that amount. As it was she was putting large amounts of money for the kids college fund. That would have ended.

As I posted, earlier, why move from a house, school and neighborhood the kids loved. And where they lived they were safe from the then going on war between rival gangs

In short she was taking the chance of moving her kids into a possible shooting gallery

One of my co-workers lost a grandson of 6 months to a stray bullet in a nice neighborhood. I lived in a nice neighborhood, but still just down the street from where I lived, a gang member shot and killed a 12 or 13 year old girl. Simply to gain status by being able to tattoo a tear drop under his eye. Meaning he had killed

[autumnnight]

I remember going to some career-related seminar and hearing about intent vs. impact. Basically, he was talking about the difference that there often is between how we intend something as opposed to how it actually is perceived by and impacts someone else.

 

For example, let's say someone jokes with you about your weight. They may intend it as a joke or friendly banter. However, the impact it has may be hurtful. Intent vs. impact.

 

I wonder if that is the deal with this topic. A WS may really and truly believe they love or loved their partner in spite of the affair. Their intent was not to stop loving the spouse.

 

That isn't the impact it has on the BS. Regardless of the WS's intent regarding loving them, the BS sure as heck doesn't perceive it or feel it as love. It feels like a lie. It calls every moment you were together into question. After all, if the A takes them by surprise, chances are they really believed you loved them while they were cheating. If they were so wrong about that, can they trust any love you ever proclaimed to have for them? Can they trust anything, including and especially themselves? They can know in their heads that the WS was the one in the wrong, but they are plagued by thoughts of what if. What if they had done this or that differently, even as they are cursing the WS for hurting them. NOTHING about the life they thought they had makes sense, and they cannot ever imagine it making sense again.

 

That isn't love, regardless of what the WS says. That is torture that is so foreign that it feels like it will never end.

[autumnnight]

they really believed you loved them while they were cheating

 

That was supposed to say while YOU were cheating. Shaky hands today.

[carhill]

Since the topic is regarding cheating, which is deception, and presumes the betrayed spouse is unaware of the affair, can they still fell loved the way they're supposed to, or accustomed to, while their spouse or partner is deceiving them and having sex or sharing intimacy with another? IMO, the dynamic turns upon the sensitivity of the betrayed spouse to words and actions of love and their 'feel' for the relationship as well as how the wayward spouse expresses their perspective within the relationship.

 

Going back to the first post by a BS:

 

"I've talked to my WW at length about this very topic. My love dictates that I could never hurt her by cheating. Is that what is really wrong when someone cheats? That their type of love does not prevent them from having someone else? Because so many WS's seem to profess love for their spouse yet they still cheat. "

 

The poster states he could never hurt his spouse by cheating. In his mind, he is aware of all factors relevant to him, his perspective, his choices, his behavior, his 'reality'. His spouse cannot read his mind and has no quantifiable method of determining all that 'stuff' which forms up his statement. If he was cheating (he never would, he states), she would similarly be unable to quantify aspects of his psyche relevant to the deception and would have only her own intuition to go on if his deception was successful. In my posts, I'm presuming it is, simply because he stated 'cheating'.

 

Part of my reason for focusing on this is due to the many MW's who rationalized away their interactions with myself as not being infidelity and professing love for their spouses. I found the confluence of those perspectives to be both, at the time, confusing and also profound, but I really had no frame of reference to understand what was going on in their mind since, yup, I can't read minds. I could state that no way they could have loved their spouses the way they should have while interacting with myself and deceiving their spouse but that would be me projecting my own value judgments onto them. Since I still firmly believe in that premise, I guess I'm still projecting those judgments. That's life.

[drifter777]

Do you know how completely sexist this sounds? Even in my case where I am being a terrible wife it isn't to replace my husband. I can't do better than him. But before my husband I had only a few not serious boyfriends. And they were always a long ways apart. I really can't think of a single girlfriend of mine who exhibitied the behaviour you saddle women with. I do have a question. Did your wife break up with her boyfriend to be with you?

I don't care what you think.

[drifter777]

drifter

 

 

 

In short she was using me to learn to fish, to get a free trip out to the river, and to improve on her tan, for the coming weekend.

What she did not count on was the romance of the river. She had a great time doing many things for the first time. Every one of which triggered her body to begin the manufacture of love chemicals. Then we did spend some time working on our tans, and just talking. Again I said all of the right things, about religion, my out look on life, the things I wanted to do and see in my life, and how I was frustrated at not being able to find Mrs. Right, and how much I wanted to find her and start a family. By the end of the day she had a great fun day exploring things she had never tried. More love chemicals are hitting her brain.

That night when we made love, it was the best sex she had ever had, that and I did not use protection. Now the love chemicals are in full production and even more importantly they have been customized solely for me.

In a period of 24 hours she had gone from not being attracted to me, to being totally infatuated with me.

I see it differently. She wanted to have sex with you before you even got to her store that day. She had already made the decision that if you pursued her she was not going to say no.

 

Love chemicals overwhelming clear thinking and free will? Someone accused me of being sexist - what about these statements?

[Noirek]

I don't care what you think.

 

Fair enough but I have a right to express and opinion or challange one just like you. Getting snarky about it is a reflection of your character.

[Noirek]

I see it differently. She wanted to have sex with you before you even got to her store that day. She had already made the decision that if you pursued her she was not going to say no.

 

Love chemicals overwhelming clear thinking and free will? Someone accused me of being sexist - what about these statements?

 

I didn't accuse you of being sexist. I asked you if you realized how sexist your statement sounded. Are you sexist? Do you care if you are or not? If you realized you were indeed would you work on yourself and make improvements. Go read your statement I initially replied to switching the genders and then maybe you can see how completely sexist it sounded.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Noirek