Forgiveness

[drifter777]

Because it fits with his paradigm.

Look, I didn't write the book. If you don't agree with me or a book written by a therapist to address forgiveness issues that SOME people face - so be it. Stop the snarky crap - I'm tired of it. Just put me on ignore and go on with your life.

[xxoo]

you're asking me to take responsibility for his affairs.

The logic doesn't fly. That means I could act out and he'd be responsible - right! Because if he got on here and said "my wife had an affair, I had two after her so she had another" you would all say - "what did you think would happen? you caused her that much pain so you should be forgiving of her for doing that."

 

um no... I will always be personally responsible for my actions. No matter what someone else does. What he did reduced me to a quivering mess. But I'm an adult, and I have a choice and a responsibility to not hurt people back and I must live and act in a healthful mature way. I will not put up with abusive behavior and if that means leaving a relationship, I will. But I have no right to hurt someone back the way that they did me.

 

I am asking you to take responsibility for putting him in such a self-destructive place that he had an affair. His method of self-destruction doesn't change the fact that your actions put him in that place.

 

Yes, you could tit for tat into eternity, but I'm talking about taking responsibility for the SOURCE of all this pain, which is your affair. All this trauma in your marriage, ultimately, was started by you. You caused your pain. If your initial affair was a self-destructive one, you've been quite successful.

[katielee]

I know this is pretty much how I felt when I had my revenge affair. Very self destructive. I am sure his first affair gave him no satisfaction and then continued his self destruction with another affair. My understanding it that both of these were brief? Was your affair long?

 

Thanks JA... he was very angry with me- angry that I had an affair and angry that I put an end to his first affair, angry that he didn't get a chance to confess like I did. his affairs were about 4 weeks long - mine was probably about that time put together.

So, I'm sure he decided that he got to have what I got. Part of me wonders if the only way he could stay in this marriage was to HAVE an affair...?

[katielee]

i truly think..if he had only had one affair...you would not be where you are emotionally...but he had two...and you are not satisfied that he won't do it again.

 

this!! ....

[katielee]

I'm going to ask my IC if I should just lump together his two affairs as 4 months of bull crap rather than two - but it is hard. He purposely sought someone else out. I saw them making out. and he does NOT understand the pain I have when I see her.

The first one he pretty much fell into.

[JohnAdams]

So, I'm sure he decided that he got to have what I got. Part of me wonders if the only way he could stay in this marriage was to HAVE an affair...?

 

Part of his thoughts at the time of his affairs may have been a self destruction, you end it, you kick me out for what I have done, he may not have wanted to be the one that ended the marriage. He may have had second thoughts after his affairs. He may have realized how stupid it really was and that it did not accomplish anything.

[katielee]

Part of his thoughts at the time of his affairs may have been a self destruction, you end it, you kick me out for what I have done, he may not have wanted to be the one that ended the marriage.

 

 

JA - you have been a window into his soul. thank you. This is sad. likely true. My affair WAS a dealbreaker for him. He just couldn't pull the trigger. So I guess he had to resort to forcing the issue. And when push came to shove I didn't leave... because I knew it wasn't the real him that was doing this. But how do I trust I have the real him back?

[Mrs. John Adams]

You are responsible for his affairs. Do you believe he would have had them if you had not?

 

Therefore..you are responsible. Now...that does not mean he gets a free get out of jail card. He has to do the work to heal you as well.

[drifter777]

I'm going to ask my IC if I should just lump together his two affairs as 4 months of bull crap rather than two - but it is hard. He purposely sought someone else out. I saw them making out. and he does NOT understand the pain I have when I see her.

The first one he pretty much fell into.

I do this regarding my WW but that's easy for me because I just naturally felt this way. I can't "accept" that she did what she did without classifying a month of her being a selfish slut who decided - on her own - that she wanted to be single. It was a ONS with one guy and a 3 week shack-up with another guy. I do think about them individually and they set off different reactions in me but those reactions are equally painful, horrifying & disgusting. But overall, I deal with it as a single occurrence of her acting out a fantasy that was incredibly hurtful and caused much more damage then she could have ever imagined. Its like if she got drunk and lost control of her car and crashed into a couple of innocent drivers. Maybe one got hurt but the other just got a scrape. Neither of them can be excused. So different - yes - but the same reckless event. Does that make sense?

 

For me a real sticking point is: She meant to get drunk, enjoyed getting drunk, enjoyed being drunk, but when she sobered up after the damage she caused she refused to accept full responsibility because "she had been drinking" and she'd never do that if that bartender would have stopped serving her. The remorse that Mrs. JA describes is missing completely.

Edited February 24, 2015 by drifter777

[Mrs. John Adams]

Now we are making progress!

 

I think poor John...was shocked when he told me about his affair! I cried and held him and said I understood. I never questioned him...never brought it up..and I hung on to him for dear life....

 

Katielee....the only way you are going to know he is not going to do this again...is if he shows you the remorse you need to see and you can forgive him.

 

And he does not seem to be interested in anything that helps you to heal...

[Mrs. John Adams]

Drifter...maybe..with time she will be able to give you remorse....is she doing everything else you need?

[katielee]

Now we are making progress!

 

I think poor John...was shocked when he told me about his affair! I cried and held him and said I understood. I never questioned him...never brought it up..and I hung on to him for dear life....

 

 

MrsJA - I right hooked him!

[katielee]

You are responsible for his affairs. Do you believe he would have had them if you had not?

 

Therefore..you are responsible. Now...that does not mean he gets a free get out of jail card. He has to do the work to heal you as well.

 

I believe he would not have had them if I had not.

 

I am not responsible for his affairs. sorry. won't do it.

Perhaps if I had had a great childhood, he would have paid more attention to me the first 20 years of marriage, not left me alone with the kids all the time I wouldn't have had my affair. But I did. And that rests solely on me.

[katielee]

t taking responsibility for the SOURCE of all this pain, which is your affair. All this trauma in your marriage, ultimately, was started by you. .

 

I take responsibility for his pain. I've said that before. All his pain was caused by my affair... why can't people see I'm taking responsibility for that? I've said it over and over. Oh yes, I understand I started it.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katie..i understand you take responsibility for the pain which caused him to have the affairs.

 

Because I acted selfishly...and had an affair....I am responsible for johns pain...and because John hurt...and he wanted to hurt me back...because John wanted me to be the one to end the marriage so it would be on me and not on him.....he had an affair...he planned, plotted, sought out,another woman. He dated her...made out with her...took her for ice cream..in our car. He told me what he had done....and I cried and held him....and instead of kicking him out...I understood. I deserved what he did to me. He would never have had that affair had I not had one first. Therefore...I am responsible for his affair.

 

Perhaps if I had given John the remorse he needed to heal in the first two years after my affair....he would not have felt the need to have an affair. But I didnt. I did not give him what he needed to heal. I gave him transparency, devotion, and sorrow. But I never took his pain upon myself.

 

In the very beginning...I remember making excuses as to why I committed adultery....

I was not happy

You were not giving me attention

You were crabby

You shut me out

 

But the reality was I was selfish...I wanted attention...I liked being complimented....I was flattered.

 

So when he decided that I could stay...I was still blame shifting....

 

I learned to stop doing that...I learned to accept the responsibility ....I learned to place the blame entirely upon myself. John was not responsible for my affair....no matter how unhappy I was.

 

Are you with me so far?

[xxoo]

. I deserved what he did to me. He would never have had that affair had I not had one first. Therefore...I am responsible for his affair.

 

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but I agree. I've never cheated on my spouse. But if I did, I could hardly blame him for cheating as well. It would hurt like hell, but that's what often happens when you cheat on a spouse. This is real life. If you play with fire, you get burned.

[badkarma2013]

I believe he would not have had them if I had not.

 

I am not responsible for his affairs. sorry. won't do it.

Perhaps if I had had a great childhood, he would have paid more attention to me the first 20 years of marriage, not left me alone with the kids all the time I wouldn't have had my affair. But I did. And that rests solely on me.

 

******************************************************************

 

I am a grown man who has witnessed in my travels ,more grim,evil and horrible acts one human being can do to another..and still hang on to a thread of sanity...

 

But here I am sitting with tears in my eyes and there is more pain and sadness in this thread than a person can bear...

 

All who read this thread should realize The Horrific Damage Infidelity does to marriages and the Betrayed...

 

After reading post from all of you...I am through feeling sorry for myself..I hope ALL of us here find peace and with it some understanding and wisdom..

 

Badkarma

[Mrs. John Adams]

So we lived the next 28 years...in complete transparency, devotion, and love....and sorrow. I still did not understand why he could not forgive, why could not get over it, why he still hurt. I wanted desperately to make it go away. I wanted him to stop triggering. I offered to leave...I did everything I knew to do...except take HIS pain.

 

And we were happy...and traveled and raised our kids...and nobody looking in knew that every October...we wept tears of agony for what I had done. No body knew that he went into deep depression. And he could not tell me How to help him.....because he did not know. He did not know what it looked like or what it felt like....but he knew there was something missing.

And I was responsible for his pain.....

 

And then one day I read a book...and I realized that what he was looking for was remorse. I needed to not only know that I was responsible for his pain...but I had to carry it...I had to take it upon myself to the depths of my soul...and heal him. Only I could heal him. I had to let him see his pain. In my eyes...in my heart...in my soul...he needed to know I could feel what I had done to him so that I would never do it again. All those years..he was afraid.

 

He was afraid to trust me and afraid to forgive...and once he could see that I truly understood all of this...he was able to forgive me ....which meant that he made himself vulnerable to me again.

 

 

Remorse= forgiveness

 

Forgivness= vulnerability

 

Vulnerability = trust

 

Because I know the pain I not only have given him the ability to trust me again...but I can trust myself. I carry that pain with me...and I will never hurt him like that again.

 

Because I am responsible for his pain.

[badkarma2013]

Posted my Mrs. Adams:And then one day I read a book...and I realized that what he was looking for was remorse. I needed to not only know that I was responsible for his pain...but I had to carry it...I had to take it upon myself to the depths of my soul...and heal him. Only I could heal him. I had to let him see his pain. In my eyes...in my heart...in my soul...he needed to know I could feel what I had done to him so that I would never do it again. All those years..he was afraid.

 

He was afraid to trust me and afraid to forgive...and once he could see that I truly understood all of this...he was able to forgive me ....which meant that he made himself vulnerable to me again.

 

 

***************************************************************** EVERYONE of us here appreciate your and Mr. Adams honesty....basically telling us the Real story of what happened to 2 young married peoples lives and marriage when infidelity came calling ....

 

Thank You

 

badkarma

[Mrs. John Adams]

Infidelity is a large bag of rocks we place around our spouses neck. The rocks represent the pain. He carries that bag the rest of his life. He doesn't understand why we placed it there...the person he loved more than life put this huge bag of rocks on his neck...and it hurts..and it gets in the way...and it is always there. He grows weary and tired of carrying it.

 

So I grabbed that bag of rocks that I placed there and I carried it for him...and he saw that I understood that he needed help to carry it...and because I understood...he was able to help me carry it...and now we carry that bag of rocks together...it is still there..it still hurts...it is still heavy...but he knows he can trust me to help him carry it....and together...it isn't so heavy anymore.

 

I gladly carry my bag of rocks for my husband...I gladly take responsibility for what I have done. It reminds me of how very far we have come....I would do everything humanly possible to take that bag of rocks away...and he knows I can't. But he has forgiven me for putting it there....

[drifter777]

Drifter...maybe..with time she will be able to give you remorse....is she doing everything else you need?

Ok, really long response because I want you - and others - to understand the context I am still dealing with. I'm to the point where I'm not sure there is anything (other then discovering a time-machine) that will ever get me past a level of acceptance all the way to forgiveness. The "incident" was extra horrible because of the way she ambushed me. "I met somebody and I want you out of our home. Today. The guy will be here tomorrow. I'm sorry but that's the way I feel."

 

After that, everything was a blur for a couple days. Stunned, numb, devastated - lots of ways to describe how I felt - none of them good. I resolved to look forward and swore I would hate her forever. I would do what I had to do in order to see my son, but no contact other than that. I would not go to my home and beat the hell out of the guy because she wasn't worth my risking jail. I did fantasize about spitting in her face and I know that I would have done it at some point. I didn't sleep for weeks - just napped for an hour or two at a time. My resolve was strong and getting stronger and I was confident that I was going to get past this if I kept doing what I was doing.

 

A few weeks later circumstances put us in her (our) kitchen when I dropped off our son. All of a sudden she started to beg me to come back. She told me that she realized how much she loved me and she wanted our life back. My unintentional 180 scared the living sh*t out of her and that reality intruded on her fantasy. She wanted me when she was convinced she was losing me. But she never felt like she did anything wrong. She felt entitled to break loose and find out what f'ing other guys was like. She said it was something she needed to do and that I should be happy that she discovered she wasn't missing anything. That she now knows she wants only me. At that time she shared many details in a matter-of-fact kind of way - as if she was just telling me about her day. Not a shred of remorse or even empathy for what it must have been like for me. Talk about gas-lighting.

 

The bottom line to why I came back is, really, pure denial. And I made sure I stayed in denial because thinking about the truth was too f'ed up. So I told myself that what she did couldn't be that bad because here we were, back together. I told myself that the hurt and shame and anger would fade over time. People on here know that I always say that the main reason I left is because I was a coward. But years of therapy has opened my eyes about that.

 

Its like this - if this exact same thing happened to my best friend and he told me all these details I know I'd do two things. First, I'd hug him and cry. This is so horribly hurtful that it is nearly impossible to believe any wife could do this. Second, I would strongly (really strongly...) make him understand that convincing himself he was a coward is simply a way to soften the truth of how evil his wife had been to ambush him like this. What she did was narcissistic to a degree that was not comprehensible to a "normal" person. And then, using that same strength of will that he possessed, he convinced himself that he could take anything in order to make a solid, secure family life for his son. And, with that as the goal, he would make things work somehow. I wouldn't stop telling him this until he accepted the truth. And it might take 25 years for him to get there but I'd be with him every time he needed me.

 

Flash forward: she still holds back details because she is afraid that I will walk away if I know the truth. I believe she still feels that she was entitled to experience whoring around because it was fun and it felt good. And she can rationalize it by telling herself that she "grew" from the experience. I don't believe that this was the only time she cheated, although she says it was. These lies and half-truths demonstrate her lack of true remorse. If we didn't have custody of my grandson I would give her an ultimatum on full disclosure and set a time-frame for myself. If I still felt the way I do now after X amount of time then I walk away. But I won't do it because I will gladly give my life for that innocent little boy and that's just the way it is. It is my choice but that doesn't mean I have to just shut up and accept it. I can still regret the horrible decision I made to come back to her because moving ahead only tangled me up deeper into the unfulfilled life I was living. I can keep looking for a way to find peace and I will until I do or I die.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Drifter: I'm always astounded by the stories I read here but your story is worse than most. I'm truly sorry for your pain and I hope you find that peace somehow. I could not have done what you are doing.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Oh Drifter...i am so sorry. God i hope i did not make you trigger today.

 

You are a precious man...and i hope she knows what you have sacrificed because of her selfishness.

 

Our stories are all so ugly....I don't dare tell you all the horrible things i said to my beloved....where did that woman come from????

 

Can i ask you...did you ever ask her to read the Linda MacDonald book how to help your spouse heal from your affair?

 

Maybe just maybe it would rattle something in her mind to help her know and realize completely what she has done to you.

[Mrs. John Adams]

VBM...look at you...comforting another man....when you hurt just as bad.

 

Somehow infidelity has brought us together to comfort each other for the loss we have suffered and to draw strength from one another. Mankind at it's worst can bring out mankind at it's best.

 

I thank you all so much for what you have taught me. I would not be in the place i am were it not for those on another site that helped my John.

 

We are doing our best to pay it forward.

[merrmeade]

Drifter: I'm always astounded by the stories I read here but your story is worse than most. I'm truly sorry for your pain and I hope you find that peace somehow. I could not have done what you are doing.

I don't think VBMan is actually ranking you on the worst/best story spectrum, drifter, but it is truly a powerful one and I am also touched and honored that you chose to share it. I heard it and heard you and feel your pain. You are not alone.