Forgiveness

[katielee]

Mrs JA - I appreciate your response. Not sure I agree with it though.

 

I was a WS for two years before his affairs. Believe me, every day was like that, me on the floor crying, begging him to tell me what to do, how could I fix this, that I was so sorry... I now live my life so that I put him first and help him with things that are important to him. Here we are, it's 5 in the morning, and I'm at the pool lifeguarding him while he swims his mile. We're the only ones here. These are the little things I do for him that I "think" help him.

Two weeks ago he just railed on me. I get it - still angry - and I just listened.

 

However, ff he doesnt' know what he needs, how can I help him?

 

Of course I know what his pain is like, I'm there. That's the thing about affairs by both people - it DOESN;T lessen the other's pain, just adds more pain and work to the already complicated situation.

 

I don't understand why people throw in one sentence of yeah, he shouldn't have done it but..... REally? Because at no time did I ever mention how I was treated before my affair. Because it doesn't matter. How I coped with my pain is the only thing that matters - because THAT was the wrong thing, he could have beat me and I still wouldn't have had a right to have an affair.

 

I can't go 28 years not talking about either affairs - although I think we've talked enough about them. They exist separately, because I'm not sure the pain can be handled together, as you kind of suggest - I forgive him, he forgives me. I think I've been so very understandning about where we are now. I'm sure he wouldn't have had his affairs had I not had mine. But I've taken on that guilt long enough, and perhaps that is where I'm stuck but that is not coming across on here. That I caused myself ALL this pain is something I could get for his one affair. But not two.

[xxoo]

That I caused myself ALL this pain is something I could get for his one affair. But not two.

 

There is no fairness in betrayal. Seeking it will drive you mad.

[katielee]

There is no fairness in betrayal. Seeking it will drive you mad.

 

understood. the only thing I can do is decide if it was a dealbreaker and leave or decide if I can live with it and stay. People leave marriages because the betrayal is "not fair" I'm guessing.

[merrmeade]

So now I have to assume there have been other affairs or other secrets she is keeping. And I feel like I have to accept that and move on and see how things play out.

And you're okay with that???

 

I think this is what TT does to us. After so much time, hedging, rephrasing, re-angling, trying to figure out a new, better way to get it out of them and them, constantly reassessing the situation and you and how much information is REALLY necessary right now, what will happen if do/what will happen if they don't. It's NEVER about doing the right thing or truth because it's the truth. THAT is as shocking, disappointing and unbelievable as anything else he's done to me in itself, but the result is that I will always doubt the 'truth' I've received.

[merrmeade]

I am overwhelmed by John's forgiveness....i see him in a whole new light....I look into his face and i see a man willing to do anything to keep me...he sacrificed himself to keep us together. I could NEVER do enough to repay him. That's forgiveness folks....in it's purest form. He loves me in spite of what i did.

And THAT is moving, worth knowing about but not something I think I'll ever have. And that's okay. Whether that's acceptance, settling or just reality, there's nothing I can do about it - except accept and try to be peaceful...

 

... ummm, unless you bring up TT and the lying. Therein lies the rub and then, so much for peaceful...

Edited February 24, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade....there is nothing wrong with acceptance. We lived that way and were happy.

 

Some people can't live with just acceptance...so for them divorce may be the answer.

 

I ask you...does your husband carry the weight of his infidelity against you? Does he give you what you need? Total and complete transparency...which means every detail you ask for...which means he becomes an open book...which means he tells you his every move, every password, etc.

 

Has you shown you remorse? Not sorrow...remorse...and you will know remorse when you see it. Even though John could not describe it to me...when he finally saw it...he knew.

 

You will not be able to forgive him until he gives you remorse. It's quite simple really.

 

Remorse allows forgiveness...forgiveness cannot come until you are at peace that he understands your pain and won't do it again. Then..and only then can you forgive him....

 

I pray you get there...but if you only arrive at acceptance....life can be good.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Actually, no. The book specifically says that if the betrayer is dead or not willing to participate in the forgiveness process the best you can hope for is acceptance. In fact the quote that starts the chapter on acceptance reads:

 

"Acceptance is gutsy, life-affirming response to violation when the person who hurt you is unavailable or unrepentant".

 

You should look at the book again - especially the chapter on cheap forgiveness. I mean, you can keep denying it or go read about it again and see how much of it fits. The introduction to that chapter reads:

 

"Cheap Forgiveness is a quick and easy pardon with no processing of emotion and no coming to terms with the injury. It's a compulsive, unconditional, unilateral attempt at peacemaking for which you ask nothing in return.

 

When you refuse to forgive, you hold tenaciously to your anger. When you forgive cheaply, you simply let that anger go. When you forgive cheaply, you seek to preserve the relationship at any cost, including your own integrity and safety.

 

Cheap Forgiveness is dysfunctional because it creates an illusion of closeness when nothing has been faced or resolved, and the offender has done nothing to earn it."

 

Then go to the chapter on Genuine Forgiveness and read the three-point definition.

 

Why do you think I've asked for nothing in return?

[autumnnight]

Why do you think I've asked for nothing in return?

 

Because it fits with his paradigm.

[Elias33]

Merrmeade....there is nothing wrong with acceptance. We lived that way and were happy.

 

Some people can't live with just acceptance...so for them divorce may be the answer.

 

I ask you...does your husband carry the weight of his infidelity against you? Does he give you what you need? Total and complete transparency...which means every detail you ask for...which means he becomes an open book...which means he tells you his every move, every password, etc.

 

Has you shown you remorse? Not sorrow...remorse...and you will know remorse when you see it. Even though John could not describe it to me...when he finally saw it...he knew.

 

You will not be able to forgive him until he gives you remorse. It's quite simple really.

 

Remorse allows forgiveness...forgiveness cannot come until you are at peace that he understands your pain and won't do it again. Then..and only then can you forgive him....

 

I pray you get there...but if you only arrive at acceptance....life can be good.

 

So based on this logic, forgiveness is not given, ever, it is a mere exchange, because something is expected in return. Does one not give, without expecting anything back? And if anything is expected, is it still something to be given? Forgiveness then is a response based on the perpetrator, so they hold all the power?

 

And again, just asking, I find your views interesting, even though they seem to clash with mine

[waterwoman]

I think I have forgiven H in that I don't blame him any more and I guess I can see why he did what he did and I see the remorse and regret he feels. I don't want to make him pay any more for what he did.

 

But that is not the same things as 'forgetting' about it. I mostly don't think about it but when I do it can still hurt. And sometimes I mention it and get upset. Difference is that now, when I say things that might hurt him, instead of thinking he needs to suck it up, I apologise. We are now on an even playing field. No more mouthing off, no more anger regarding the affair - amnesty for that behaviour is over.

 

It's forgiveness of a sort.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee...I am going to respond to this as honestly as I possibly can. I am going to use some tough love...because sometimes it takes tough love for us to open our eyes and really see reality. I care about you very much. But I want you to hear yourself...really hear what you say.

 

I was a WS for two years before his affairs. Believe me, every day was like that, me on the floor crying, begging him to tell me what to do, how could I fix this, that I was so sorry... THIS...is not remorse. This is sorrow. Yes..you are very sorry for what you have done...but not once do I hear you say anthing to him about the pain you placed on himI now live my life so that I put him first and help him with things that are important to him. Here we are, it's 5 in the morning, and I'm at the pool lifeguarding him while he swims his mile. We're the only ones here. These are the little things I do for him that I "think" help him.

Two weeks ago he just railed on me. I get it - still angry - and I just listened.this is kindness...this is marriage...it has absolutely nothing to do with remorse

 

However, ff he doesnt' know what he needs, how can I help him? I have been trying to explain this to you for a month. It took me thirty years to finally understand what remorse is...and while he could never explain it to me...he finally knew it when he saw it

 

Of course I know what his pain is like, I'm there. That's the thing about affairs by both people - it DOESN;T lessen the other's pain, just adds more pain and work to the already complicated situation. Pain is not remorse...you keep confusing the two. Of course you are in pain...you hurt him...he hurt you...you both hurt...and you will continue to do so until you are totally honest and transparent with each other about it.

 

I don't understand why people throw in one sentence of yeah, he shouldn't have done it but..... REally? Because at no time did I ever mention how I was treated before my affair. Because it doesn't matter. How I coped with my pain is the only thing that matters - because THAT was the wrong thing, he could have beat me and I still wouldn't have had a right to have an affair. You say the right words....but you don't feel it...and neither does he. As long as he feels that you are blaming him in any way for what you did....he will not believe you. You are right...there is absolutely no reason to cheat...you were wrong...he was wrong

 

I can't go 28 years not talking about either affairs - although I think we've talked enough about them. They exist separately, because I'm not sure the pain can be handled together, as you kind of suggest - I forgive him, he forgives me. neither of you forgives each other. Read what you write....you can't possibly forgive each other and still be where you are emotionallyI think I've been so very understandning about where we are now. I'm sure he wouldn't have had his affairs had I not had mine. But I've taken on that guilt long enough, do you hear this? You will carry this guilt for the rest of your life...do you think that just because you want this to end...it will? Because I am here to tell you...there will never be a day that goes by that you won't be reminded and perhaps that is where I'm stuck but that is not coming across on here. That I caused myself ALL this pain is something I could get for his one affair. But not two.you are so obsessed with this that you cannot see anything else. He had two affairs...yes he did.....because you had one first ....

 

Honestly...I see want this to be over because I hurt.....and no where in that do I see.... Remorse or forgiveness.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Mrs. JA: how do you describe true remorse? I often read that you will know it when you see it and I think I'm seeing it.

 

But what do you see it as?

[Mrs. John Adams]

So based on this logic, forgiveness is not given, ever, it is a mere exchange, because something is expected in return. Does one not give, without expecting anything back? And if anything is expected, is it still something to be given? Forgiveness then is a response based on the perpetrator, so they hold all the power?

 

And again, just asking, I find your views interesting, even though they seem to clash with mine

 

No that is not what I am saying at all...I am saying that some may not achieve total forgiveness....and that they may have to settle for acceptance rather than forgiveness. And this is about the bs giving forgiveness not the WS.

 

I am sorry I really don't understand what you are asking me.

[katielee]

Mrs J - I appreciate your response but I may not be making myself clear. I think you are equating my remorse to my forgiving him, and that's the only way to save us. Other than that, I don't know how to show my remorse the way you think I should. We've spoken endlessly about the pain I caused him. You speak etherically about it - like Mr JA knew you were remorseful because you were different - but what did you say? do? you never say what you did.

 

I said what I was doing was trying to do what I think he needs - to be a good wife. Because he said keep on doing what I'm doing. So if he doesn't TELL me somehow what he needs for me to understand his pain, how on earth can I do it?

 

I speak of pain because I'm trying to make the point that having any affair doesn't end pain, it maybe distracts from it, but then it certainly compounds it if there is one by both spouses. I never said it was remorse. I agree it is completely different. I am honest and transparent. I assume he is as well..

 

I say that about my affair BECAUSE I believe it. I have told him again and again that it was all my fault. Don't know how much further I can go with this?! I don't blame him at all. HE maybe blames himself a little. Any time he goes there I tell him that he is not to blame. so, WTh?

 

I cannot answer for him about forgiveness, although he said he forgives me. He has partial forgiveness from me. I doubt they go hand in hand that we forgive at the exact same time.

 

Of course I am reminded EVERY day what I did. Sometimes I mention it, but he would rather I not. I can go forward with integrity and honesty and authenticity and be a good wife. I will NOT stay in self-induced shame. How very selfish it would be to do that. I feel guilty for the pain I caused him. But I did not cause his affairs. I caused his pain. If this was the case then I should just have another one because after all, he would have caused it. No, someone needs to put the breaks on.

 

Obsessed with two affairs? - does he get to act out any number he wants and I have to forgive and reconcile with him because I caused his pain? Because that's what you're suggesting. Was it that painful to him that he HAD to do it twice? I'm sure I did cause him that much pain. So, allow him whatever he wants/needs to do to get over it?

Edited February 24, 2015 by katielee
changed word

[merrmeade]

Merrmeade....there is nothing wrong with acceptance. We lived that way and were happy.

 

Some people can't live with just acceptance...so for them divorce may be the answer.

 

I ask you...does your husband carry the weight of his infidelity against you? Does he give you what you need? Total and complete transparency...which means every detail you ask for...which means he becomes an open book...which means he tells you his every move, every password, etc.

 

Has you shown you remorse? Not sorrow...remorse...and you will know remorse when you see it. Even though John could not describe it to me...when he finally saw it...he knew.

 

You will not be able to forgive him until he gives you remorse. It's quite simple really.

 

Remorse allows forgiveness...forgiveness cannot come until you are at peace that he understands your pain and won't do it again. Then..and only then can you forgive him....

 

I pray you get there...but if you only arrive at acceptance....life can be good.

I think it's evident from my posts that my husband won't and can't do most of this. I'm FULLY cognizant of his limitations. But to confirm this by answering specifically ...

 

(1) Does your husband carry the weight of his infidelity against you?...Has [he] shown you remorse? Not sorrow...remorse...and you will know remorse when you see it.

NO, but he thinks he has because he feels so sorry and ashamed for what he DID. (This is from his family: Feeling bad about what you did is what's expected.) He is deeply ashamed of his mistakes but cannot get beyond the 'badness' of it and, therefore, does not "carry the weight of his infidelity"against me; it's always about him.

 

He does not realize that this isn't remorse and so thinks I want him to suffer since I'm not satisfied. He assumes, as all the non-BS (WS) posters here do, that I am only interested in seeing him grovel. He, like they, thinks I want to punish him. He doesn't understand, as you do, that once he crosses the line from self-hatred and is motivated, instead, by love for another, his regret becomes true remorse and I would feel it, start to heal and forgive, R would begin and the M restart. But you can't know that if you haven't come to it.

 

(2) Does he give you what you need? Total and complete transparency... which means every detail you ask for...which means he becomes an open book...which means he tells you his every move, every password, etc.This question encompasses different aspects of openness.

 

(a) Yes, he is transparent about his present actions, and access to written information is available to me.

 

(b) But, no, he does not freely and candidly share his thoughts and feelings with anyone about anything. He deliberates first, tries to read what effect his words will have, how much he has to reveal to quiet things again, what will be the result, etc. It's who he is; he isn't aware it's different or should change.

 

© So, no, he does not freely give me the information I need about the past.

Edited February 24, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

It is hard for me to describe....but if you think you are seeing it..Then you should be satisfied with your own definition.

 

For me... I came to a place where I could put myself totally in his pain and feel it to the depths of my soul...and at that point...I understood that it was I that had to heal him. I was the one who wounded him...it was my job to heal him. That meant almost dying to self. I was a selfish person....and I never thought about what my affair would do to my husband...emotionally. I never realized how devastated, how emasculated, my affair made him feel. Nor did I care. I now not only understand what I did..I feel it...I carry his pain in my heart. And because he knows I truly feel it..he has confidence that I will never do it again.

 

I think a bs needs to know that the WS truly understands the depth of their betrayal...and until they have that ..they are afraid to hand the WS forgiveness and trust.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams

[merrmeade]

Sorry, about lumping "all the non-BS (WS) posters here" together. Not all.

[xxoo]

katie, imagine that, instead of cheating twice, your betrayed H acted out his pain in a comparably extreme but purely self-destructive way. What would your response have been? Probably concern for him, compassion, and deep remorse for causing the pain that led him to that place emotionally.

 

What if you viewed his affairs as self/marriage destructive in the same light, and responded with the same concern, compassion, and deep remorse for leading him to that place?

[JohnAdams]

katie, imagine that, instead of cheating twice, your betrayed H acted out his pain in a comparably extreme but purely self-destructive way. What would your response have been? Probably concern for him, compassion, and deep remorse for causing the pain that led him to that place emotionally.

 

What if you viewed his affairs as self/marriage destructive in the same light, and responded with the same concern, compassion, and deep remorse for leading him to that place?

 

I know this is pretty much how I felt when I had my revenge affair. Very self destructive. I am sure his first affair gave him no satisfaction and then continued his self destruction with another affair. My understanding it that both of these were brief? Was your affair long?

[katielee]

Yes I would. The lying complicates and hurts. The fact that his reaction was tied to my sexual assault very much hurts. when one is dealing with rape guilt not taking his action personally is very hard. It really hurt. I am crying. Sh I t.

I do have compassion for him that he reduced himself to this, like he had no control.

If everyone felt like it was simply a self destructive choice where the person needed compassion we wouldn't have this site. It's not how things usually go. People end marriages over this. Affairs are designed to be marriage ending...

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mrs J - I appreciate your response but I may not be making myself clear. I think you are equating my remorse to my forgiving him, and that's the only way to save us. Other than that, I don't know how to show my remorse the way you think I should. We've spoken endlessly about the pain I caused him. You speak etherically about it - like Mr JA knew you were remorseful because you were different - but what did you say? do? you never say what you did.

Katielee...I am not equating your remorse to your forgiving him. You don't have remorse...because remorse takes self totally out of the equation and you are not doing that. It was like a lightbulb went off in my mind and I totally understood and he saw it. I GOT it....I knew what he was looking for and what he needed to hear. Yes..I believe you are sorry for causing your husband pain..yes I believe you feel responsible for it....but you cannot take you out of the equation. It is still about you...somehow it comes back to you.

I said what I was doing was trying to do what I think he needs - to be a good wife. Because he said keep on doing what I'm doing. So if he doesn't TELL me somehow what he needs for me to understand his pain, how on earth can I do it? Because he doesn't know what he is looking for..and you want an answer..you want this to be over...right now....

 

I speak of pain because I'm trying to make the point that having any affair doesn't end pain, it maybe distracts from it, but then it certainly compounds it if there is one by both spouses. I never said it was remorse. I agree it is completely different. I am honest and transparent. I assume he is as well..then you are both satisfied with your transparency

 

I say that about my affair BECAUSE I believe it. I have told him again and again that it was all my fault. Don't know how much further I can go with this?! I don't blame him at all. HE maybe blames himself a little. Any time he goes there I tell him that he is not to blame. so, WTh?

 

I cannot answer for him about forgiveness, although he said he forgives me. He has partial forgiveness from me. I doubt they go hand in hand that we forgive at the exact same time.

I believe you take responsibility for all affairs involved. But there is no partial forgiveness..you either forgive or you don't. And if he says you are remorseful and transparent and he forgives you...then you have done all you need to do for him.

Of course I am reminded EVERY day what I did. Sometimes I mention it, but he would rather I not. I can go forward with integrity and honesty and authenticity and be a good wife. I will NOT stay in self-induced shame. How very selfish it would be to do that. I feel guilty for the pain I caused him. But I did not cause his affairs. I caused his pain. If this was the case then I should just have another one because after all, he would have caused it. No, someone needs to put the breaks on.and this is where I see issues.yes you caused his pain and his pain caused the affairs.....and he is dropping the ball. He is not giving you what you need to heal...if you are satisfied you have healed him and you feel the way you do

 

Obsessed with two affairs? - does he get to act out any number he wants and I have to forgive and reconcile with him because I caused his pain? Because that's what you're suggesting. Was it that painful to him that he HAD to do it twice? I'm sure I did cause him that much pain. So, allow him whatever he wants/needs to do to get over it?

Nope..he does not get to act out at all...because he may very well lose his wife because of his actions. He needs to heal your pain now...since after all you healed his. I truly think..if he had only had one affair...you would not be where you are emotionally...but he had two...and you are not satisfied that he won't do it again.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Yes I would. The lying complicates and hurts. The fact that his reaction was tied to my sexual assault very much hurts. when one is dealing with rape guilt not taking his action personally is very hard. It really hurt. I am crying. Sh I t.

I do have compassion for him that he reduced himself to this, like he had no control.

If everyone felt like it was simply a self destructive choice where the person needed compassion we wouldn't have this site. It's not how things usually go. People end marriages over this. Affairs are designed to be marriage ending...

 

Yes...affairs end marriages...and sometimes divorce is truly the best answer..and only the two of you know what is best for you. I am so sorry you hurt...it tears my heart out..I wish I had some magic formula that would make everything alright...but I dont. Maybe my answers for me don't work for you....your situation is different...your personality is diffferent....

Hang in there...you are working on it...I know you are trying so very hard....

 

Bless your heart ....

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think it's evident from my posts that my husband won't and can't do most of this. I'm FULLY cognizant of his limitations. But to confirm this by answering specifically ...

 

(1) Does your husband carry the weight of his infidelity against you?...Has [he] shown you remorse? Not sorrow...remorse...and you will know remorse when you see it.

NO, but he thinks he has because he feels so sorry and ashamed for what he DID. (This is from his family: Feeling bad about what you did is what's expected.) He is deeply ashamed of his mistakes but cannot get beyond the 'badness' of it and, therefore, does not "carry the weight of his infidelity"against me; it's always about him.

 

He does not realize that this isn't remorse and so thinks I want him to suffer since I'm not satisfied. He assumes, as all the non-BS (WS) posters here do, that I am only interested in seeing him grovel. He, like they, thinks I want to punish him. He doesn't understand, as you do, that once he crosses the line from self-hatred and is motivated, instead, by love for another, his regret becomes true remorse and I would feel it, start to heal and forgive, R would begin and the M restart. But you can't know that if you haven't come to it.

 

(2) Does he give you what you need? Total and complete transparency... which means every detail you ask for...which means he becomes an open book...which means he tells you his every move, every password, etc.This question encompasses different aspects of openness.

 

(a) Yes, he is transparent about his present actions, and access to written information is available to me.

 

(b) But, no, he does not freely and candidly share his thoughts and feelings with anyone about anything. He deliberates first, tries to read what effect his words will have, how much he has to reveal to quiet things again, what will be the result, etc. It's who he is; he isn't aware it's different or should change.

 

© So, no, he does not freely give me the information I need about the past.

 

Thank you for answering these so honestly. You are an amazing woman. Maybe someday he will be able to do these things for you...meanwhile...you live with acceptance that this is all you may ever get.

 

So my question to you is this...is it enough?

 

For John....it was enough....but he sure kept hoping.

[xxoo]

Yes I would. The lying complicates and hurts. The fact that his reaction was tied to my sexual assault very much hurts. when one is dealing with rape guilt not taking his action personally is very hard. It really hurt. I am crying. Sh I t.

I do have compassion for him that he reduced himself to this, like he had no control.

If everyone felt like it was simply a self destructive choice where the person needed compassion we wouldn't have this site. It's not how things usually go. People end marriages over this. Affairs are designed to be marriage ending...

 

It's not everyone, it's your husband.

 

Your actions reduced him to that.

 

I'm not saying that you should live in shame and guilt, but openly acknowledging that your actions reduced him to that, and expressing remorse for doing that to him, might be what he needs to soften and show remorse for the pain his actions have caused you.

[katielee]

It's not everyone, it's your husband.

 

Your actions reduced him to that.

 

I'm not saying that you should live in shame and guilt, but openly acknowledging that your actions reduced him to that, and expressing remorse for doing that to him, might be what he needs to soften and show remorse for the pain his actions have caused you.

 

you're asking me to take responsibility for his affairs.

The logic doesn't fly. That means I could act out and he'd be responsible - right! Because if he got on here and said "my wife had an affair, I had two after her so she had another" you would all say - "what did you think would happen? you caused her that much pain so you should be forgiving of her for doing that."

 

um no... I will always be personally responsible for my actions. No matter what someone else does. What he did reduced me to a quivering mess. But I'm an adult, and I have a choice and a responsibility to not hurt people back and I must live and act in a healthful mature way. I will not put up with abusive behavior and if that means leaving a relationship, I will. But I have no right to hurt someone back the way that they did me.