Forgiveness

[VeryBrokenMan]

So here is a question:

 

How in the world can one POSSIBLY adequately make amends or "earn" forgiveness for such a betrayal?

 

They absolutely can't ever repay that debt in full. So in my case I had to let it go if we were to move forward as a couple.

[katielee]

 

How in the world can one POSSIBLY adequately make amends or "earn" forgiveness for such a betrayal?

 

that is a good question. They likely can't. I think it at least means being present and there when the BS is triggering, having a tough time, or needing some comfort.

In the book it talks about high cost or low cost behaviors to make it easier for the BS.

[DKT3]

So here is a question:

 

How in the world can one POSSIBLY adequately make amends or "earn" forgiveness for such a betrayal?

 

I don't know that you can ever make amends. The mailman can't un-run over the puppy I got for my 7th birthday. But the candy he gave me three times a week went along way towards earning forgiveness.

 

I think its a combination of the BS letting go and understanding that its not their fault, and the WS using the time to show with actions that its something they will never do again. For me having a fWW that does her best every day is all I can ask for.

[katielee]

I could surely hand over the reigns to this recovery to my husband. He would do nothing but occasionally organize positive experiences for us and be his happy self.

 

I mean, what really, is there left to do?

[VeryBrokenMan]

That's a key point to come to terms with, the WS can't fix this, only you can. And that is true if you stay together or divorce.

[autumnnight]

They absolutely can't ever repay that debt in full. So in my case I had to let it go if we were to move forward as a couple.

 

I think that is what someone who WANTS to heal would do. Someone who doesn't can always hide behind "they haven't paid the debt yet."

 

Granted, some WS don't even try very hard. But I have a feeling that isn't what we aare talking about here.

[VeryBrokenMan]

I could surely hand over the reigns to this recovery to my husband. He would do nothing but occasionally organize positive experiences for us and be his happy self.

 

I mean, what really, is there left to do?

 

Letting you know where he is at all times. Watching for triggers and anticipating them. In my wife case, breaking the backbone of entitlement. Giving me the truth all day every day. Not expecting me to make her happy, that has to come from within. Telling me how she was feeling at any given time. Recounting things over and over without getting defensive. Saying she is sorry over and over. Texting me she misses me during the day. Being willing to sign a post-nup that is one-sided. So many little things that just add up.

[katielee]

Letting you know where he is at all times. Watching for triggers and anticipating them. In my wife case, breaking the backbone of entitlement. Giving me the truth all day every day. Not expecting me to make her happy, that has to come from within. Telling me how she was feeling at any given time. Recounting things over and over without getting defensive. Saying she is sorry over and over. Texting me she misses me during the day. Being willing to sign a post-nup that is one-sided. So many little things that just add up.

 

that's a lot of good stuff, very. He does let me know where he's at, transparency, going to IC himself. He doesn't anticipate my triggers. He REALLY Doesn't understand how hard it is for me to live around both OW.

I have no idea if he's telling me the truth. He is really trying to make his own happiness. We had a good non-defensive talk this weekend. He calls me every day at his lunch. We spend most all our free time together.

I would rather have a polygraph than a post-nup. I don't worry much about further cheating. But I would like to know if I have the truth.

[VeryBrokenMan]

that's a lot of good stuff, very. He does let me know where he's at, transparency, going to IC himself. He doesn't anticipate my triggers. He REALLY Doesn't understand how hard it is for me to live around both OW.

I have no idea if he's telling me the truth. He is really trying to make his own happiness. We had a good non-defensive talk this weekend. He calls me every day at his lunch. We spend most all our free time together.

I would rather have a polygraph than a post-nup. I don't worry much about further cheating. But I would like to know if I have the truth.

 

He is doing a lot of good things but set the expectation of more.

 

The truth is golden. I'm not certain I have all of it yet. I'd like to have a polygraph as well but unless hell freezes over it's not going to happen anytime soon but I'm holding out for that. So now I have to assume there have been other affairs or other secrets she is keeping. And I feel like I have to accept that and move on and see how things play out.

[badkarma2013]

Posted by DKT3:I don't know that you can ever make amends. The mailman can't un-run over the puppy I got for my 7th birthday. But the candy he gave me three times a week went along way towards earning forgiveness.

 

 

You are correct...the so called mailman absolutely cannot un run over you puppy...and Our WWs can never un-fu^k the OM...And No amount of "candy" anyone could give me would ever make that leave me...

 

I accepted what She had Done to our family and to me.....I forgave her...Then I blew up the Oms world as he knew it and burned mine to the ground as well..Was that Right? ..im not sure...Was it wrong...Maybe...But at the time it was Da*n effective..

 

 

PS I must add the"Scorched Earth" policy i have always lived by ..has for the most part left me now...With help from I/C and from posters like Fellini and Mrs. Adams..also after reading post from the Verybrokenman...I see though far from perfect and the pain is still there ..You have shown me there are Other Ways to travel besides Killing everything and everyone in the Village...For that i am grateful..

 

Badkarma

Edited February 23, 2015 by badkarma2013

[drifter777]

...

 

And yes I can absolutely get their by myself, that is a form of forgiveness talked about in the book when the WS is not there (or does not want) to assist in your healing.

Actually, no. The book specifically says that if the betrayer is dead or not willing to participate in the forgiveness process the best you can hope for is acceptance. In fact the quote that starts the chapter on acceptance reads:

 

"Acceptance is gutsy, life-affirming response to violation when the person who hurt you is unavailable or unrepentant".

 

You should look at the book again - especially the chapter on cheap forgiveness. I mean, you can keep denying it or go read about it again and see how much of it fits. The introduction to that chapter reads:

 

"Cheap Forgiveness is a quick and easy pardon with no processing of emotion and no coming to terms with the injury. It's a compulsive, unconditional, unilateral attempt at peacemaking for which you ask nothing in return.

 

When you refuse to forgive, you hold tenaciously to your anger. When you forgive cheaply, you simply let that anger go. When you forgive cheaply, you seek to preserve the relationship at any cost, including your own integrity and safety.

 

Cheap Forgiveness is dysfunctional because it creates an illusion of closeness when nothing has been faced or resolved, and the offender has done nothing to earn it."

 

Then go to the chapter on Genuine Forgiveness and read the three-point definition.

[badkarma2013]

Posted by drifter777:Actually, no. The book specifically says that if the betrayer is dead or not willing to participate in the forgiveness process the best you can hope for is acceptance. In fact the quote that starts the chapter on acceptance reads:

 

"Acceptance is gutsy, life-affirming response to violation when the person who hurt you is unavailable or unrepentant".

 

 

******************************************************************

 

Yes that is very true....If the betrayer does not want forgiveness or participate in the process ...then we must accept what has happened...

 

However at that time the rest of the decision with regard to my M is mine ..The Ws at that time has lost all right with regard to myself (a BH) to say or attempt anything..

 

I alone will make a decision...mine was Divorce ..and i walked..

 

After that I Owe You Nothing...and you will get nothing from me unless i want to give it....I wanted a Divorce and that is what we ALL got..

[autumnnight]

Actually, no. The book specifically says that if the betrayer is dead or not willing to participate in the forgiveness process the best you can hope for is acceptance. In fact the quote that starts the chapter on acceptance reads:

 

"Acceptance is gutsy, life-affirming response to violation when the person who hurt you is unavailable or unrepentant".

 

You should look at the book again - especially the chapter on cheap forgiveness. I mean, you can keep denying it or go read about it again and see how much of it fits. The introduction to that chapter reads:

 

"Cheap Forgiveness is a quick and easy pardon with no processing of emotion and no coming to terms with the injury. It's a compulsive, unconditional, unilateral attempt at peacemaking for which you ask nothing in return.

 

When you refuse to forgive, you hold tenaciously to your anger. When you forgive cheaply, you simply let that anger go. When you forgive cheaply, you seek to preserve the relationship at any cost, including your own integrity and safety.

 

Cheap Forgiveness is dysfunctional because it creates an illusion of closeness when nothing has been faced or resolved, and the offender has done nothing to earn it."

 

Then go to the chapter on Genuine Forgiveness and read the three-point definition.

 

This is an excellent summation of what the book says. I think VeryBrokenMan's point is that HE can do it on his on. In other words, he doesn't feel bound by some book to match its exact definition.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think many people settle for acceptance...I think John did for many years...and we were happy.

 

It was after he was satisfied I was truly remorseful that complete forgiveness came.

 

This is why we can now say it is better than ever. We were willing to live out or days the way we were...but we received a bonus.

[Elias33]

Go back to that book and read about false forgiveness.

 

The absolute, fundamental thesis of the book is that forgiveness for such a huge betrayal is something that must be earned by the betrayer. Yes, reaching forgiveness does mean letting go of the anger and urge for revenge and all that BUT you cannot get there on your own. You have granted her false forgiveness and you have done that for yourself. Its a temporary band-aid and something you can use to make it though the day. Great - because you need that kind of help right now. But this kind of forgiveness encourages rug-sweeping and denial and, more importantly, it will not last. Just read on this forum about the men who are suffering 20+ years after d-day to see what I mean. Every one of them regrets not facing their true emotions back when it all happened and finding peace of mind about the whole thing now is nearly impossible.

 

I can, and I have forgiven, without anyone's consent. You make it sound like, forgiving is something you can only do with two people present. If you NEED the other person, you are not looking for to forgive this person. You are looking for validation. You are looking for an apology, and that is a completely different thing.

 

One should be able to forgive, with or without the other person in question. If you can't do that by yourself, then it is not forgiveness that you are ready to give. It's not the case that forgiveness only may be reached if both parties put in the effort. This mindset is very limiting and destructive. The power is in you, not in the other.

 

Remember, while the violation may have been done to you, the act itself is all about the perpetrator, not the victim.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Elias33

[drifter777]

I think many people settle for acceptance...I think John did for many years...and we were happy.

 

It was after he was satisfied I was truly remorseful that complete forgiveness came.

 

This is why we can now say it is better than ever. We were willing to live out or days the way we were...but we received a bonus.

This makes a lot of sense in the context of genuine forgiveness. You discovered that it is not a pardon granted unilaterally by BH. It was a process that you both participated in. You had to be willing to understand that, although you were together, BH had not forgiven you. When you read that book you began to understand and admit the pain you caused him. You apologized - non-defensively - as often as was necessary. You finally got it. This became possible when you looked at your cheating for exactly what it was and stopped sugar-coating it TO YOURSELF. When you stop making excuses for yourself and stop mitigating why you did what you did you can accept that you truly did wrong. It was selfish and hurtful and you want to make amends for it.

 

Of course none of that would have mattered one bit if your BH wasn't open to forgiving. Clearly he was but it couldn't happen because you had not done the things necessary for his forgiveness. Its cases like this that prove how difficult genuine forgiveness really is and how lucky your BH is that you figured out how to earn it from him.

 

He really suffered a long time and you only knew about a very small part of his pain. He held back much more than you can know because he accepted a lot of the blame for his inability to forgive. He probably thought something was broken in him. It sounds like you are truly making it up to him.

[katielee]

I've thought much about this this afternoon. I forgave my parents for giving me a partially bullcrap childhood with neglect and abandonment. Didnt' need them there to do it. And AFTER I forgave my parents my Mom came back into my life and was the Mom I needed her to be. Dad, still distant. And that is fine. It was THEIR problems that allowed them to be neglectful, it didn't have anything to do with me. nor can I blame any of my adult problems on THEM.

 

And, I can see that in hubby now. I get that he was sick. That what he did had nothing to do with me. It was far from pleasant, it was awful. but what he did is his burden to bear. That he won't bear it the way I want him to I guess is my problem too.

 

If we didn't live here we wouldn't be having these issues. It wouldn't be all happiness, but I wouldn't feel like I'm having to put up with stuff, the continuing ripples of the affairs that have bred resentment in me. I need to make peace with acceptance = staying with him means living here and accepting the triggers.

And that is the ONE THING I cannot do.

[drifter777]

I've thought much about this this afternoon. I forgave my parents for giving me a partially bullcrap childhood with neglect and abandonment. Didnt' need them there to do it. And AFTER I forgave my parents my Mom came back into my life and was the Mom I needed her to be. Dad, still distant. And that is fine. It was THEIR problems that allowed them to be neglectful, it didn't have anything to do with me. nor can I blame any of my adult problems on THEM.

 

And, I can see that in hubby now. I get that he was sick. That what he did had nothing to do with me. It was far from pleasant, it was awful. but what he did is his burden to bear. That he won't bear it the way I want him to I guess is my problem too.

 

If we didn't live here we wouldn't be having these issues. It wouldn't be all happiness, but I wouldn't feel like I'm having to put up with stuff, the continuing ripples of the affairs that have bred resentment in me. I need to make peace with acceptance = staying with him means living here and accepting the triggers.

And that is the ONE THING I cannot do.

Katee - I struggled for years trying to understand why I can't forgive her. My psyche is different than yours and lots of other people's for lots of reasons. This book hit the mark dead-on for me. For me. We're all different and you did not need what I need to forgive - and that's great. It sound's like John Adams is a man very much like me in that he carried his pain & anger for decades because he didn't want to destroy his family. It not a noble thing to do - it just sounds that way to others. People like us do it because that family life is more important to us then our own life. When the family naturally begins to disperse - marriage, college, etc. - things kind of flip over and that thing you buried for so long jumps to the top of the heap and demands that you finally address it. I think guys like me are maybe a bit scarce but I know there's a lot of us out there. Women too. This book couldn't have sold so well if not for us...

[ladydesigner]

I'm re-reading Janis Spring's book How Can I Forgive You? - the courage to forgive, the freedom not to.

 

I don't need to hurt him back, constantly remind him, or be angry. There is a call for making amends and restitution in this book. There is also a message that forgiveness need not be complete, but partial - enough to put together a good, authentic life. There is a focus on dignity and justice. The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma.

 

I like this: You don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him work with you to achieve restitution.

 

But I really don't know what that would look like in my life.

 

I like the title of that book in that it gives you a choice, "the courage to forgive, and the freedom not to." I would be in the camp of "freedom not to", since I don't plan on forgiving my WH this time, after false r.

 

Is forgiveness necessary? Would be my next question.

[drifter777]

I like the title of that book in that it gives you a choice, "the courage to forgive, and the freedom not to." I would be in the camp of "freedom not to", since I don't plan on forgiving my WH this time, after false r.

 

Is forgiveness necessary? Would be my next question.

Necessary for what?

[Mrs. John Adams]

Forgiveness is not necessary...if you are fine to live with acceptance...and many people are. And we did for a very long time...and we were very happy.

 

But i can tell you first hand that coming full circle...remorse-forgiveness...is an unbelievably freeing experience. I love john more now than i ever have....and i truly think it is because he has forgiven me.

 

I am overwhelmed by John's forgiveness....i see him in a whole new light....I look into his face and i see a man willing to do anything to keep me...he sacrificed himself to keep us together. I could NEVER do enough to repay him. That's forgiveness folks....in it's purest form. He loves me in spite of what i did.

[JohnAdams]

I'm re-reading Janis Spring's book How Can I Forgive You? - the courage to forgive, the freedom not to.

 

I don't need to hurt him back, constantly remind him, or be angry. There is a call for making amends and restitution in this book. There is also a message that forgiveness need not be complete, but partial - enough to put together a good, authentic life. There is a focus on dignity and justice. The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma.

 

I like this: You don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him work with you to achieve restitution.

 

But I really don't know what that would look like in my life.

 

By my nature, I am not a forgiving person. I have a reputation for holding grudges. However, I am a fair person. I can have compassion and am very analytical and have strong principles. So, when something happens completely against my principles, what do I do?

 

For years I struggled with forgiveness. Did I forgive her? I was not sure. I was not sure what forgiveness really looked like. Is to forgive to be like the sin never happened? If that is the case, no, I could never forgive. So, for the most part, I thought I forgave, but, I was never really sure.

 

So, given this terrible situation, you are in a dilemma that there is no logical answer. Your principles say leave. Your logic says stay. Logic says, I have a young family, two kids, a mortgage, and not enough money to support two households. Your principles say this is way beyond something you could ever live with. Betrayal is something I cannot tolerate in anyone. My heart says I still love her. If I leave I better be sure because she will latch on to someone else and it will absolutely be beyond the point of no return.

 

Overall, yes, I felt I settled for a long time. But, I felt, what option do I have? Did I feel I could find someone I could love as much....NO. Often, I though damn, why do I love her so much. It would have been so easy had I not loved her.

 

In a strange way, I can relate to your husband. You had an affair first. You tore out his heart. You destroyed his principles. You made him feel less of a man. His life as he knew it was destroyed. Yes, he had two revenge affairs and there is no excuse for that. But, this was not the man he was prior to your affair. His life ideals were no longer intact. It is going to be a tough journey to get back close to where you were. You may need to help him forgive you before he can help you forgive him.

[Glarner]

Thank you all for this discussion on forgiveness. Spring's book was very helpful for me in beginning to understand the range of possibilities but I still struggle with understanding where sit and how it really works in my life (especially when I ride a roller coaster of emotions).

 

 

This little op-ed piece on forgiveness published on Valentines Day was interesting to me, in its thoughts on forgiveness as a process (and not always a deliberate one at that) - at least for some. It had some resonance with me as I struggle to really see if I have had, or will have, that "aha moment" when I choose to forgive. I thought I had that at times in the past, but sometimes it seems to regress. Muddling onward...

 

 

Forgiveness can open doors to healing and love | The Seattle Times

[katielee]

 

In a strange way, I can relate to your husband. You had an affair first. You tore out his heart. You destroyed his principles. You made him feel less of a man. His life as he knew it was destroyed. Yes, he had two revenge affairs and there is no excuse for that. But, this was not the man he was prior to your affair. His life ideals were no longer intact. It is going to be a tough journey to get back close to where you were. You may need to help him forgive you before he can help you forgive him.

 

Yesterday I asked him what more can I do as a WS? Am I doing everything he needs me to do?

 

He said keep on doing what you're doing.

 

I'm no longer the woman I was prior to his affairs, but I don't have a right to act out my pain and hurt other people.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee...I asked John for thirty years...what can i do? I fell on the ground and cried...tell me what you want. That is not remorse. That is sorrow.I believe you are sorry...I have no doubt you are sorry....i was sorry. It was not enough.

 

If your husband doesn't know what he is looking for he can't tell you. Do you understand that? He knows that his life is turned upside down and he wants it to go away...but he doesn't know how to make it go away. So he decided to hurt you back...he decided to try to soothe his ego that YOU destroyed by turning to another woman. He cannot forgive you until he knows you totally....TOTALLY understand what you did to him. IN YOUR SOUL...you can TASTE his pain.

 

He cannot forgive you until he knows you will NEVER do this again.

 

You are so obsessed with YOUR pain...that you cannot even begin to understand his. and he can't even begin to help you with your pain until you help him with his.

 

I am sorry...I just don't think you get it....

 

John too had a revenge affair...and i never said a word....i never blamed him...I knew it was my fault...if i had NEVER had my affair he would not have had his. That doesn't mean he gets off the hook....but my affair was the main focus.

 

It was amazing....when i finally gave john the remorse he needed....for the first time...he cried about his affair...he begged me to forgive him. Something we NEVER talked about....but MY remorse gave him HIS remorse.

So in giving me his forgiveness...I was able to then forgive him as well....something we both buried for 28 years...because we never talked about his affair.

 

I may be wrong...because i do not have all the answers...but i truly think you need to heal your husband...and in doing so...you will be healed.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams