narcissist girlfriend

[elaine567]

That's exactly why i said 6-12%.

 

 

 

PS: Reading comprehension ftw.

 

Yes, but 12% is not an option surely?

No-one would think that 100% of BPDers are in relationships with non BPDers.

So 6-12% is incorrect.

All we know is the 6% of the population are considered to have BPD.

How many are in relationships is unknown, how many are in relationships with non BDPDers is unknown and how many are single is unknown.

It is thus hardly scientific to assume then that 12% of the population are in a relationship where BPD is a concern.

The exact figure may be a lot less than 6% too, seeing as having BPD is inconsistent with maintaining long lived relationships.

[Radu]

On the contrary, BPDers generally are very easy for stable folks to fall in love with. Moreover, the vast majority of BPDers are so high functioning that, until their infatuation fades after 4 to 6 months, they don't exhibit strong BPD warning signs. By then, many of those "truly strong, stable characters" have already started to fall in love with the BPDers.

 

The result is that BPDers typically have more sexual partners and enter into many more relationships than is true for "Nons" (nonBPDers). A recent meta-analysis (i.e., summary of multiple studies on this issue) found that "BPD features are associated with having more partners and engaging in more casual sexual relationships (citing Sansone & Wiederman, 2009)." See Nora Charles, Texas A&M Univ., Role of Biological and Social Factors (2011) at 22.

 

To add to this ... BPD-ers are the most stable when they are in the beginning of a relationship because they naturally mirror the other person.

The other person's stability becomes their stability.

When this period ends, the troubles begin and it's the partner's fault that they feel the way they do.

 

So BPD-ers are rewarded through limerence; it would make sense that they would seek it more than others while normals would be rewarded by the LTR itself [good and bad].

[Radu]

Yes, but 12% is not an option surely?

No-one would think that 100% of BPDers are in relationships with non BPDers.

So 6-12% is incorrect.

All we know is the 6% of the population are considered to have BPD.

How many are in relationships is unknown, how many are in relationships with non BDPDers is unknown and how many are single is unknown.

It is thus hardly scientific to assume then that 12% of the population are in a relationship where BPD is a concern.

The exact figure may be a lot less than 6% too, seeing as having BPD is inconsistent with maintaining long lived relationships.

 

It's a domain, it doesn't mean it has to be 12% ... it means that it could 12% with a lower probability.

And low probability =/= impossible

 

If you want to account for every variable ... good luck; i'm sure all of us could contribute with every conceivable variable we on the next 10 pages of this thread.

[Oneness]

It's a lost cause dude. Unless somebody went through this kind of stuff, it is absolutely impossible to understand it.

 

Yes,this is my experience. I had been in a LTR that was stable and loving, it ended due to outside stresses and the problems my exhusband was having adjusting to the change a baby brings to a marriage...but we had 9 years of no fights, no break ups, no cheating..etc.

 

When I met my exboyfriend there were some red flags...but I had no idea about BPD, so I could not recognoze what was happening when the switch flipped. If you have not been with a high functioning BPD, you would not know what was happenning either. By the time he started the BPD dysfunctional behavior, I was deeply in love with him and committed in my heart to him. I am by nature a care-taker and a fixer, and I had failed in my marriage I did not want to fail this time...but I had no idea what I was up against for years. I had a high tolerance for abuse, I had high relationship investment, and I was not going to lose this time...I kept researching, digging, I was dogged and did not give up until I could find out why his behavior was the way it was...then I discovered BPD and it all fit. When it all struck me I was devastated...I still am. I went into denial that it could not be fixed...people with BPD can get better...they just have to want to. I read all kinds of books, I joined a forum, I went into therapy...I left him and went back over and over again. You have to understand...some of us are like velcro...we nons are the sticky side and they have the hooks..and it is very hard to get that velcro to release.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Oneness

[Invictus01]

When I met my exboyfriend there were some red flags...but I had no idea about BPD, so I could not recognoze what was happening when the switch flipped. If you have not been with a high functioning BPD, you would not know what was happenning either. By the time he started the BPD dysfunctional behavior, I was deeply in love with him and committed in my heart to him. I am by nature a care-taker and a fixer, and I had failed in my marriage I did not want to fail this time...but I had no idea what I was up against for years. I had a high tolerance for abuse, I had high relationship investment, and I was not going to lose this time...I kept researching, digging, I was dogged and did not give up until I could find out why his behavior was the way it was...then I discovered BPD and it all fit. When it all struck me I was devastated...I still am. I went into denial that it could not be fixed...people with BPD can get better...they just have to want to. I read all kinds of books, I joined a forum, I went into therapy...I left him and went back over and over again. You have to understand...some of us are like velcro...we nons are the sticky side and they have the hooks..and it is very hard to get that velcro to release.

 

Somehow I don't see any sane person having a conversation like this 2-3 months into seeing somebody, no matter how strong emotionally that person is - "Sorry, I don't think we should see each other anymore. Something is off and I am not sure what it is. We seem to be into each other a little bit too much. We have way too much in common. We talk to each other too much. We enjoy each other's company too much. We have too much chemistry. This isn't healthy in a normal relationship. I don't want all this. Have you by any chance been to a psychologist for a borderline personality disorder evaluation?"

 

The other person - "I must have been seeing a nut job for the last a couple of months"

[Radu]

Somehow I don't see any sane person having a conversation like this 2-3 months into seeing somebody, no matter how strong emotionally that person is - "Sorry, I don't think we should see each other anymore. Something is off and I am not sure what it is. We seem to be into each other a little bit too much. We have way too much in common. We talk to each other too much. We enjoy each other's company too much. We have too much chemistry. This isn't healthy in a normal relationship. I don't want all this. Have you by any chance been to a psychologist for a borderline personality disorder evaluation?"

 

The other person - "I must have been seeing a nut job for the last a couple of months"

 

I think there could be some warning signs when dealing with one :

- too much mirroring; if it looks and sounds too good ... it could be mirroring. You can test this, throw out some bait.

- look at parents behaviour ... their relationship.

- a history of the other partners being at fault ... never he/she

- a huge tendency to speak in absolutes 'all' 'none' 'everyone'

- a pathological fear of therapy; they fear therapists because they might be able to see through them

- a lack of respect towards boundaries; we tend to forgive this during limerence but it could be a hint about things to come

Outside of the above one could also not go in full ... hold back on going in 'love' which is essentially a form of hypnosis.

That means ... see the good and the bad in the other person; don't get drunk on cold water.

 

Mine weren't full blown BPD just some of this + very selfish, so i don't know if splitting can be seen in the initial limerence period.

Maybe her/him splitting good/bad someone else ?

[Downtown]

I don't know if splitting can be seen in the initial limerence period.

My experience, Radu, is that most of the BPDers -- I believe roughly two-thirds -- are high functioning folks whose fears are typically triggered only by those who draw close to them in long term relationships. During the infatuation period, they are so convinced that the partner is nearly perfect that their two fears (abandonment and engulfment) are held at bay. Those fears generally return in full force only when the infatuation starts to evaporate.

 

Maybe her/him splitting good/bad someone else?

Maybe, Radu. Yet, if you are dating a BPDer, she very likely is a high functioning BPDer or you wouldn't be seeing her repeatedly. This means that she probably gets along fine with casual friends, business colleagues, clients, and total strangers -- because none of those people draw close enough to trigger her two fears.

 

Your best chance of seeing such splitting, then, would be to see how she interacts with people very close to her, e.g., her siblings or other close relatives. Of course, that rarely occurs during the first several months of the infatuation stage because partners typically are introduced to the family later on. This, at least, is my experience.

[Invictus01]

Your best chance of seeing such splitting, then, would be to see how she interacts with people very close to her, e.g., her siblings or other close relatives. Of course, that rarely occurs during the first several months of the infatuation stage because partners typically are introduced to the family later on. This, at least, is my experience.

 

^^^THIS. I was dumped... or should I say "walked away from" since I wasn't even provided a reason or even a "it's over" conversation... a month after she introduced me to her parents, at her and her parents insistence, at a lovely dinner that apparently went so well, she told me "I have never seen my mother be so nice to the new guy I am introducing her to. That was weird." Apparently, her mother likes to be a giant b!tch to her new guys (or so I was told). Anyway, to any normal person, a meeting with parents (all my friends were like "A big day today, huh?" the day off the dinner) and the fact that it went well would signal that things are progressing well. A month later, without an argument or a disagreement or any other reason I can think of, she was gone.

[BlueIris]

Yes, but 12% is not an option surely?

No-one would think that 100% of BPDers are in relationships with non BPDers.

So 6-12% is incorrect.

All we know is the 6% of the population are considered to have BPD.

How many are in relationships is unknown, how many are in relationships with non BDPDers is unknown and how many are single is unknown.

It is thus hardly scientific to assume then that 12% of the population are in a relationship where BPD is a concern.

The exact figure may be a lot less than 6% too, seeing as having BPD is inconsistent with maintaining long lived relationships.

 

True.

 

And we don’t even “know” the 6% bit. Many reputable sources put the estimated figure at about 1-2%. For instance:

 

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | NAMI: The National Alliance on Mental Illness

NIMH · National Survey Tracks Prevalence of Personality Disorders in U.S. Population

 

The second one, from the US National Institutes of Mental Health, says BPD is estimated at 1.4% of the population and that about 80% are women. You’d think that all of the other personality disorders would be given as much consideration, but they’re not, at least these days. I think that BPD is a popular go-to casual speculation because it’s the personality disorder most often popularly associated with women. It wraps the classic allegation “she’s crazy!” in science and a patina of objectivity (though the “science” says we can’t be objective about a partner).

 

My heart goes out to OP who wants to stop ruminating. That’s the key to moving forward. Get out, go NC and get strong yourself. Try therapy and/or mindfulness techniques if you find yourself obsessing. Figure out how to re-tune your picker and pick better in the future. If you’re obsessing or “sticky” as one poster put it, work on those.

 

Personally, I don’t think it matters what label we slap on someone who was destructive. I had an ex who insisted I was mentally ill, and I trotted off to therapists and all. But he himself was later institutionalized by his business partners and diagnosed bipolar I with psychotic features, years after our relationship and well after I’d been NC. There’s a chance your partner was mentally ill, like mine turned out to be. It can be a mess.

 

Your best chance of seeing such splitting, then, would be to see how she interacts with people very close to her, e.g., her siblings or other close relatives. Of course, that rarely occurs during the first several months of the infatuation stage because partners typically are introduced to the family later on. This, at least, is my experience.

 

Good point. It’s important to socialize with family, friends and colleagues, ours and theirs, prior to getting involved with someone. If we don’t think we have the right or power to vet someone that way, or we attach too quickly, we should figure out why WE do that.

Edited February 23, 2015 by BlueIris
typos

[Invictus01]

The second one, from the US National Institutes of Mental Health, says BPD is estimated at 1.4% of the population and that about 80% are women. You’d think that all of the other personality disorders would be given as much consideration, but they’re not, at least these days. I think that BPD is a popular go-to casual speculation because it’s the personality disorder most often popularly associated with women. It wraps the classic allegation “she’s crazy!” in science and a patina of objectivity (though the “science” says we can’t be objective about a partner).

 

That is correct, 80% of BPD cases are women. But here is something else to think about. 80% of sociopaths/narcissists/psychopaths are male. Yet the difference between all those isn't too great, they are all considered to be in the same cluster of personality disorders (Cluster B). The causes are pretty much the same, in many cases people have symptoms of multiple disorders... Then you start looking at how sociopaths/narcissists are described - no consciousness, no remorse, no empathy. You can easily imagine a guy to be all that. A woman without consciousness, remorse or especially empathy? It is much tougher to wrap your brain around it. It is much easier to put a BPD diagnose on a woman than a sociopath/narcissist (or, for that matter, misdiagnose it with depression or bipolar and not deal with it at all).

[Leegh]

Male, you're trying to apply healthy behavior patterns to someone who is unhealthy. Without trying you bring up key words that point up NPD. Namely, NO EMPATHY. That is huge. My ex, in the same breath, told a friend she had butterflies in her stomach for this new guy she'd made out with while disparaging my sexual and intellectual shortcomings. She called me a half-formed man and said I wasn't self-sufficient. I could go on and on. She didn't have one kind thing to say about me. Except...she said I wasn't a jealous type, therefore she didn't feel guilty about being so smitten with this other man.

 

Don't listen to these people who poo-poo applying personality disorders to flagrant abuse.

The hallmark of narcissism is no empathy. I have a sister whom I believe is a narcissist and it is an absolute nightmare dealing with her. My sister twists things around and blames me for things she has done, and that is another red flag of narcissism, and she lies too, about major things. Narcissists do not change, and they won't even acknowledge that they have a problem.

[Downtown]

And we don’t even “know” the 6% bit. Many reputable sources put the estimated figure at about 1-2%.

Blue, the 1.5% to 2% figures came from very small hospital studies that looked only at the diagnoses in clinical settings. These studies were not representative of BPD's incidence in the general population. One reason is that the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning and thus generally don't end up in a locked psychiatric ward. Another reason is that therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer the name of the disorder -- or to report it to the insurance company as a diagnosis because it rarely is covered. The 2% figure, then, typically represents the portion of BPDers who are so sick that they are covered by government subsidies (not insurance) -- and are so sick that they won't immediately terminate therapy on hearing the true diagnosis.

 

The second one, from the US National Institutes of Mental Health, says BPD is estimated at 1.4% of the population and that about 80% are women.

This is an older study that preselected individuals based on responses to PD screening instruments or psychopathology, limiting the size of the survey samples. It therefore was not based on a randomized, representative sample of the population.

 

NIMH 2008 Study. Although NIMH did fund that smaller study, it also funded a far larger, more recent, and more comprehensive study of BPD that did face-to-face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults. Unlike the earlier study, this much larger study is based not on preselected individuals but, rather, on a randomized selection of individuals that is actually representative of the general population. This 2008 study concludes that the prevalence of BPD in the general population is about 6%. Specifically, it finds prevalence of lifetime BPD to be 5.6% for men and 6.2% for women -- or 5.9% for both men and women. The difference between men and women is not statistically significant. See 2008 Study in JCP at 1.

 

Federal Government. Significantly, 6% is the BPD prevalence figure reported to Congress by an expert panel of mental health professionals. In response to the U.S. House of Representatives’ request, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) submitted this report to Congress in 2011. That report states:

SAMHSA conducted an extensive literature review and gathered input from selected leading experts in the field of BPD research, treatment, and services.... See

Report to Congress on Borderline Personality Disorder

(May 2011) at 1.

Randi Kreger. The author of Stop Walking on Eggshells states, "The latest figures that raised the percentage of BPDs from 2% to 5.9% were done by looking at large scale surveys, not hospital data." See Reply 19 at Randi Kreger.

 

Dr. Leland Heller. The author of Biological Unhappiness states:

The prevalence of BPD has been debated over the years, with most estimates ranging between 1-2%. Those of us who treat the BPD know that estimate is too low. A population telephone study in Iowa during the 1990′s found 7% of the population had the BPD. A large study (34,653 adults) showed the prevalence was ~ 6% (5.9% actually), with men equal to women. This study was published in the April 2008 edition of the

Journal of Clinical Psychiatry

. See

Dr. Leland Heller

at 1.

[Downtown]

That is correct, 80% of BPD cases are women.

Invictus, yes, that is what the small hospital studies showed. As I noted above, however, the only large-scale study using representative data found that the incidence of lifetime BPD was essentially the same for both genders. The explanation offered for this new finding is that, in clinical settings such as hospitals -- where therapists typically see only the low functioning clients -- those therapists have a bias toward diagnosing "Cluster B" women as BPDers and "Cluster B" men as narcissistic or sociopathic.

[BlueIris]

The difference between men and women is not statistically significant.

 

That’s interesting! Here on LS, I see it suggested or offered as an explanation primarily in regard to women. Almost always, actually.

[Haydn]

That’s interesting! Here on LS, I see it suggested or offered as an explanation primarily in regard to women. Almost always, actually.

 

I can see why you`d think that but i think it`s pretty 50-50. (Usually) I am no expert but what i do `think` is that the cycles of my ex repeated so often and fitted a pattern very similar to Downtown`s advice and evidence.

[Downtown]

That’s interesting! Here on LS, I see it suggested or offered as an explanation primarily in regard to women. Almost always, actually.

Yes, Blue, my experience is that most explanations for abusive behavior -- whether it be BPD, NPD, ASPD, bipolar, drug abuse, or hormone problems -- are "primarily in regard to women," as you say. The primary reason, I believe, is that most members are male and they generally are complaining about their female partners. It seems that females have a tradition of sharing their problems with close friends and males do not -- giving males no other option than seeking advice on a forum.

[jt27]

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[FONT=Arial]I am ALMOST convinced I was in a relationship with a NPD/BPDer. I say almost because, naturally, I cannotofficially diagnose the disorder. What Ican do though is look back at the relationship (3 years) and deduce logicallywhy my ex was the way she was. I canalso determine why I stayed in the relationship with such a person. Things that didn’t make sense at the timemake perfect sense now…almost a year later. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]When you are in the relationship with someone like this, youdefinitely see the characteristics of this disorder but are not quite sure whatto attribute to them. I am sure eachperson here that was involved with someone like this asked him/herself more thanonce why this person is acting the way they are. It isn’t normal and we knew it wasn’t normalbut the problem is as Downtown stated, by then we are already in love with thisperson and by then it’s too late. You’vealready been sucked in by this person. See,these types are attracted most often to someone that is giving, supportive,empathetic and stable. I was in love andcared for her deeply and chose (yes, I know, it was indeed my choice) to believein the good in her instead of the red flags that I weren’t quite sure of. That’s who I am. So I made excuses for her behavior forwhatever reason. I was always the one keepingthe relationship together. Always theone trying to make it work but it was futile. The more I did, the worse it got. It was so exhausting keeping up with her need for reassurance. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]These types build you up to be the person they dream aboutway too early in the relationship just to chop you down when you can reachtheir unattainable expectations. Theymake you feel like you are perfect then resent you when it inevitably turns outthat you are not (i.e. it was my all my fault). When you accept so much and put so much effort into the relationship andit fails, you feel defeated. You blameyourself and so does she because you couldn’t live up. You feel like you let her down and that’s howI felt for the longest time. It wasn’tabout all the great and wonderful things I did for her or how great I was toher, it was the things I didn’t do “right”. I did X and Y BUT I didn’t do Z. That is narcissistic love and that’s all they know. They cannot love unconditionally. They don’t have the capacity. I, on the other hand, loved, accepted andembraced her for her only to get burned in the end.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]I realize I did contribute to this as I becamecodependent. I also know that mypersonality fits their “type” to a T and that the relationship I had with myfather created this. I have been able toreflect on the relationship with her and my father along within myself and makeimprovements – something a NPD/BPDer is incapable of. They keep repeating the same thing and cannot/will not reflect. Months of therapy has also helped me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]I could give a ton of different examples to illustrate my ex’snarcissistic characteristics. I willtouch on a few just so you all don’t think I am blowing smoke here. These examples focus on death. A few different examples that show her lackof empathy that is essential in NPD/BPD. First is when my father died pretty suddenly. The night he died, my ex came to my house andI can remember it like it was yesterday. When she came into my house, she didn’t even sit down next to me. No real attempt to comfort the “love of herlife” after his father just passed away. Her face was basically blank and without emotion, she didn’t saycomforting things, didn’t rub my arm. Nothing. I explained it away as “shejust didn’t know how to handle it” and was right, she didn’t. Because she doesn’t have the empathy to doso. She just went cold. Second was her “best” friend’s (she wasn’treally a friend, just someone she texted/haven’t seen each other for like 10years) dad dies suddenly of a heart attack. Now, maybe I am crazy, but if my “best” friend’s dad dies, I am going tothe funeral to support HER because I feel compassion for HER. She didn’t. Third, is her grandmother. Towards the end of our relationship hergrandmother was dying. When she learnedof this, her response was “Better not have the funeral on a day I have to work,I worked too hard to get this job!”. Seriously?? So self-involved andabsorbed that she doesn’t even think of being there for her mother. I could go on and on but that tells it prettygood.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]After it ended, she blamed me. She actually left me and would say thingslike “I was so good to you” and “you’re such a manipulator”. This is called projecting. She projects her own faults on me to not onlymake herself feel better but to justify her decision to leave. I never manipulated her. This is where the resentment of me not livingup shows its face again.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]You cannot do enough for these types. Nobody can. It took me a long time to realize this. I blamed myself for a very long time thinking if I did more of somethingor something different she wouldn’t have left. Reality is that it was over before it started. She isn’t meant to last. When the butterflies start to lessen, shedidn’t know what do to. It was my faultthey ran out. She is 28 and been singlefor about 3 months since she was 18 and it was always the other person’s fault. She had no sense of herself but knewsomething wasn’t right. “I am such abasketcase, I don’t know how you put up with me”. Something is wrong with me since I loved heranyway I guess. It’s called unconditionallove and since she doesn’t know it, she doesn’t understand it. I truly loved her and still have compassionfor her because I do know about her childhood and her relationship with hermother that caused all this.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]To those that have an issue with us “assigning” a disorderto our NPD/BPD exes - if it helps us move and accept that our relationship wasn’tmeant be because our exes have serious emotional issues, then let us. Yes, we should definitely look at ourselvesand ask why we stayed but unless you have experienced a relationship of thistype, you cannot relate so please save the judgment. It is known that the aftermath of arelationship with this type of person takes an incredible toll on the “victim”and a long time to recover as compared to a “normal” break up. I have never experience such pain. You will read that it’s almost always thepartner of someone with this disorder that goes to therapy and not the otherway around.[/FONT]

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[jt27]

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[FONT=Arial]I am ALMOST convinced I was in a relationship with a NPD/BPDer. I say almost because, naturally, I cannotofficially diagnose the disorder. What Ican do though is look back at the relationship (3 years) and deduce logicallywhy my ex was the way she was. I canalso determine why I stayed in the relationship with such a person. Things that didn’t make sense at the timemake perfect sense now…almost a year later. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]When you are in the relationship with someone like this, youdefinitely see the characteristics of this disorder but are not quite sure whatto attribute to them. I am sure eachperson here that was involved with someone like this asked him/herself more thanonce why this person is acting the way they are. It isn’t normal and we knew it wasn’t normalbut the problem is at Downtown stated, by then we are already in love with thisperson and by then it’s too late. You’vealready been sucked in by this person. See,these types are attracted most often to someone that is giving, supportive,empathetic and stable. I was in love andcared for her deeply and chose (yes, I know, it was indeed my choice) to believein the good in her instead of the red flags that I weren’t quite sure of. That’s who I am. So I made excuses for her behavior forwhatever reason. I was always the one keepingthe relationship together. Always theone trying to make it work but it was futile. The more I did, the worse it got. [/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]These types build you up to be the person they dream aboutway too early in the relationship just to chop you down when you can reachtheir unattainable expectations. Theymake you feel like you are perfect then resent you when it inevitably turns outthat you are not (i.e. it was my all my fault). When you accept so much and put so much effort into the relationship andit fails, you feel defeated. You blameyourself and so does she because you couldn’t live up. You feel like you let her down and that’s howI felt for the longest time. It wasn’tabout all the great and wonderful things I did for her or how great I was toher, it was the things I didn’t do “right”. I did X and Y BUT I didn’t do Z. That is narcissistic love and that’s all they know. They cannot love unconditionally. They don’t have the capacity. I, on the other hand, loved, accepted andembraced her for her only to get burned in the end.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]I realize I did contribute to this as I becamecodependent. I also know that mypersonality fits their “type” to a T and that the relationship I had with myfather created this. I have been able toreflect on the relationship with her and my father along within myself and makeimprovements – something a NPD/BPDer is incapable of. They keep repeating the same thing. Months of therapy has also helped me.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]I could give a ton of different examples to illustrate my ex’snarcissistic characteristics. I willtouch on a few just so you all don’t think I am blowing smoke here. These examples focus on death. A few different examples that show her lackof empathy that is essential in NPD/BPD. First is when my father died pretty suddenly. The night he died, my ex came to my house andI can remember it like it was yesterday. When she came into my house, she didn’t even sit down next to me. No real attempt to comfort the “love of herlife” after his father just passed away. Her face was basically blank and without emotion, she didn’t saycomforting things, didn’t rub my arm. Nothing. I explained it away as “shejust didn’t know how to handle it” and was right, she didn’t. Because she doesn’t have the empathy to doso. She just went cold. Second was her “best” friend’s (she wasn’treally a friend, just someone she texted/haven’t seen each other for like 10years) dad dies suddenly of a heart attack. Now, maybe I am crazy, but if my “best” friend’s dad dies, I am going tothe funeral to support HER because I feel compassion for HER. She didn’t. Third, is her grandmother. Towards the end of our relationship hergrandmother was dying. When she learnedof this, her response was “Better not have the funeral on a day I have to work,I worked too hard to get this job!”. Seriously?? So self-involved andabsorbed that she doesn’t even think of being there for her mother. I could go on and on but that tells it prettygood.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]After it ended, she blamed me. She actually left me and would say thingslike “I was so good to you” and “you’re such a manipulator”. This is called projecting. She projects her own faults on me to not onlymake herself feel better but to justify her decision to leave. I never manipulated her. This is where the resentment of me not livingup shows its face again.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]You cannot do enough for these types. Nobody can. It took me a long time to realize this. I blamed myself for a very long time thinking if I did more of somethingor something different she wouldn’t have left. Reality is that it was over before it started. She isn’t meant to last. When the butterflies start to lessen, shedidn’t know what do to. It was my faultthey ran out. She is 28 and been singlefor about 3 months since she was 18 and it was always the other person’s fault. She had no sense of herself but knewsomething wasn’t right. “I am such abasketcase, I don’t know how you put up with me”. Something is wrong with me since I loved heranyway I guess. It’s called unconditionallove and since she doesn’t know it, she doesn’t understand it. I truly loved her and still have compassionfor her because I do know about her childhood and her relationship with hermother that caused all this.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]To those that have an issue with us “assigning” a disorderto our NPD/BPD exes - if it helps us move and accept that our relationship wasn’tmeant be because our exes have serious emotional issues, then let us. Yes, we should definitely look at ourselvesand ask why we stayed but unless you have experienced a relationship of thistype, you cannot relate so please save the judgment. It is known that the aftermath of arelationship with this type of person takes an incredible toll on the “victim”and a long time to recover as compared to a “normal” break up. I have never experience such pain. You will read that it’s almost always thepartner of someone with this disorder that goes to therapy and not the otherway around.[/FONT]

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[jt27]

sorry for the multiple posts. Something is up with my posts...

[Radu]

 

The second one, from the US National Institutes of Mental Health, says BPD is estimated at 1.4% of the population and that about 80% are women. You’d think that all of the other personality disorders would be given as much consideration, but they’re not, at least these days. I think that BPD is a popular go-to casual speculation because it’s the personality disorder most often popularly associated with women. It wraps the classic allegation “she’s crazy!” in science and a patina of objectivity (though the “science” says we can’t be objective about a partner).

 

 

Histrionic is more closely associated with women and narcissism is generally associated with men.

[Radu]

I have to make a few points in a single post :

1 - the discrepancy in bpd/histrionic and narcissism can be considered from another pov.

Men are raised to be independent, to seek out, to look for adventure and to risk more ... in a way this means more trust in risking. The higher prevalence of nacissism [be seen like a Gooooooood] could be influenced by this.

Histrionic/BPD are at it's core about emotional regulation. One is a walking tornado of drama and the other has drama around it because of emotional deregulation ... and women are raised to be more in touch with their feelings.

2 - the most important thing that is taken from this discussion is that most abusers [be they male or female] have a full PD, several or elements of them but do not qualify for a PD.

3 - attaching the label can be quick and good, and i am guilty of doing this myself when i started reading up about it.

But now it's better to write about boundaries because all of the ppl who have this to some varying degree have poor boundaries ... while theirs are bloody rock solid [they look out for their own interests].

They do not want to be with someone like them most of the time, it's much easier to be with a welcome mat of a person.

So i would say that ppl with these ... PD's, prefer ppl without them.

[anika99]

The trouble with exes saying that their partner had no empathy, is that did the partner have a lack of empathy as a basic personality trait, in that they had no empathy for anyone or any living thing?

Or was the lack of empathy specific to the partner and borne out of lack of love, lack of caring and building resentment, even hate.

Did they still cry at sad movies, still give to kid's charities, still put themselves out for other people, but reserved their lack of empathy for a person and a relationship they had checked out of?

I also think that some grieving partners see the distancing of the ex as being a sign of lack of empathy when all the ex is doing is carving out a new life for themselves.

 

I'm late to this conversation but I just want to say that empathy, when dealing with someone who is a borderline personality, is not this simple nor this black and white.

 

 

Fear of abandonment is at the heart of BPD. Therefore BPD individuals are at their worst with the people who have the power to hurt or abandon them while they can behave normally with those who are non-threatening.

 

 

I spent several years with a BPD man and he was perfectly capable of showing care and empathy to people who he was not emotionally attached to. When a person with BPD is in an romantic intimate relationship their fear of abandonment is most likely to manifest itself in all manner of crazy making ways. In protecting themselves from being abandoned the BPD person is either extremely clingy and needy or cold and heartless. Often they swing between these two extremes which is a real mindful*k to their romantic partner. One day the BPD individual is telling their SO that they are the bestest and greatest person to have ever come into their life and the next day they are coldly dismissing that person from their life with seemingly no heart or feeling whatsoever. Usually my BPD ex would turn on me shortly after we had a particularly close experience. That closeness would unleash his fear of abandonment which he would react to by turning mean and unfeeling.

 

 

He did not have empathy for me because seeing me unhappy or in pain was a sign to him that I might leave. So anytime I was the least bit hurt or unhappy he would react in an all out BPD meltdown. Yelling at me, making wild accusations, calling me names, kicking me out of the house, giving me the silent treatment for days. And while he was acting this way with me he could very well be showing empathy and caring to other people because they didn't trigger his fear.

 

 

So just because who see a person showing caring or empathy to someone you can't say, oh well that person cannot have BPD because they show empathy, because it's really about how they treat the person/people in their intimate lives.

[jt27]

I agree with you anika99. My ex would almost cry when she heard about, say, a cop getting killed but when my own father died, she was completely emotionless. Strange, isn't it? I believe it to be a defense mechanism that was manifested during her childhood as is the almost always the case with BPD/NPD.

 

I used to ask myself over and over if I was just being irrational when "labeling" my ex with a personality disorder even when my instinct was telling me so. Was it just my hurt talking? Was it just my damaged ego? Was I in denial? Is it just her way of dealing with it? Etc... I am confident that because I can look back after the fog has lifted a year later and add everything up, that my ex indeed has a personality disorder. It's not so much about what happened during the break up, it's what happened during the relationship that leads me to this conclusion along with research and therapy.

 

For months and months I wanted her back. This is where I really wondered...it's been almost a year and I am STILL blaming myself. Why? This isn't normal. I understand I became addicted to her and dependent on her. I know that part of me came from MY childhood and also how she treated me and the relationship exploited that. Such is the case with most that get involved in LTRs with a BPD/NPDer. She fed off my epathy, my understanding, my patience, my tolerance, my loyalty, my confidence, my big heart, and my unconditional love for her "supply". When she used it all up, she was gone. When she thought I couldn't provide those things anymore for her, she flipped the switch and painted me black. Every relationship before me wasn't her fault either. She has been single for a total of 3 months since she was in high school (over 10 years)...one source to another.

 

Something else I want to note...pay attention to what your friends and family say that got to know your ex. Almost every one of my friends and all my family admitted they felt my ex had serious emotional issues or "something wasn't quite right" about her. They see things we cannot because we are so enmeshed. But because of the type of person I am and because I loved her with all my heart, I thought I could handle it and that it wouldn't lead to our demise. That I was different. That I was strong enough to take it. I was wrong obviously. I thought that the good qualities she had shown are really who she is. They are a part of her but those parts don't win out in the end.

 

Like anika stated, when my ex sensed there was something wrong she pulled away or acted out instead of empathizing with me or trying to understand what's wrong. It's like I wasn't allowed to get upset. When she got upset or we had problems and I asked her why she feels this way or what we can do to fix it, her response was always "I don't know". It was up to me to figure it out because it was never her fault so she didn't know what was wrong and when I didn't do the "right" thing, she resented me for it.

 

I will say I have learned more about myself and about relationships in general than I ever have because of this experience. With this kind of hurt and the type of reflection one has to do, so many lessons are learned. Too bad she is unable to do this and will very likely be unhappy the rest of her life looking for the "one" that is perfect but doesn't exist.

 

I loved a narcissist and I am a better person because of it.

[Invictus01]

Something else I want to note...pay attention to what your friends and family say that got to know your ex. Almost every one of my friends and all my family admitted they felt my ex had serious emotional issues or "something wasn't quite right" about her. They see things we cannot because we are so enmeshed. But because of the type of person I am and because I loved her with all my heart, I thought I could handle it and that it wouldn't lead to our demise. That I was different. That I was strong enough to take it. I was wrong obviously. I thought that the good qualities she had shown are really who she is. They are a part of her but those parts don't win out in the end.

 

Funny story. A couple of weeks after my girlie abruptly exited my life and one of my FEMALE friends pointed me towards personality disorders and I just started learning about it, I had a dinner with my buddy and his wife. His wife asked me if I wanted to talk about it. I said I am not sure there is much to talk about but I believe she had some sort of a mental issue. To which my buddy's wife said, and I quote - "You know... I could have told you this a long time ago. Something just wasn't right about her". THEN the next day I was out with my buddy talking about stuff and he told me "I will tell you this - pretty much all our mutual female friends after a while started urging me to talk to you get you away from her. Something just wasn't adding up with her and her stories". How I was THIS blind, I have no idea...

[Taramere]

For months and months I wanted her back. This is where I really wondered...it's been almost a year and I am STILL blaming myself. Why? This isn't normal. I understand I became addicted to her and dependent on her. I know that part of me came from MY childhood and also how she treated me and the relationship exploited that. Such is the case with most that get involved in LTRs with a BPD/NPDer. She fed off my epathy, my understanding, my patience, my tolerance, my loyalty, my confidence, my big heart, and my unconditional love for her "supply".

 

If you tend to be an empathic, nurturing and tolerant sort of person then a relationship with somebody who's really going to test those qualities to the max can give you a stronger sense of self. I mean, that's what happens when your best character traits are severely tested. Getting to the point where you say "okay, this person has tested my patience and my better qualities enough" can feel like a failure.

 

However, all that good stuff - tolerance, patience, kindness etc - needs to be balanced out with a sense of boundaries. A narcissistic person will try to "condition" you into dispensing a limitless supply of these things by flattering you for them...but if you resist being flattered and watch their behaviour closely you will see that underneath the flattery lies a lack of respect for you. Not just for you, but for those traits that you value in yourself.

 

Some people with very low empathy/narcissism will demonstrate their contempt for those traits openly, once they're "done" with you. You've said that you're a better person for this unpleasant experience, and I don't find that difficult to believe at all. I think it's very healthy that you continue to embrace the kind, tolerant side of yourself as a good thing. It's very easy to fall into the trap of starting to view those traits in a contemptuous way - as the narcissist does.

 

You see people doing that a lot on this board, actually. The "no more Mr Nice Guy" type threads - where people have felt poorly treated by others, and decide that they're going to embrace that bad behaviour themselves in an attempt to "win". Essentially, attempting to turn themselves into narcissists because they think that's a superior way of being.

 

Your approach - in continuing to cherish the nurturing, empathic aspects of yourself - is far more healthy I think. Your difficult in getting over the relationship suggests that there's still some important learning to be gleaned from it...and the most likely thing I can think of is that you maybe still have some work to do as regards balancing those great character traits with some boundaries. To recognise that while being a tolerant person is a great thing, you have to be mindful of the tendency some people have to exploit or test tolerance - and to disrespect you if you show too much of it.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Taramere