narcissist girlfriend

[Haydn]

OP, this sounds very much like my ex, each adjustment i made to accommodate seemed to make things worse.

 

From what i`ve read it wouldn`t have got better.

 

Downtowns reading of my situation was actually spot on and my ex repeated many cycles.

 

BPD often manifests this way. I can`t say for certain if my ex was full blown BPD but she certainly was a Narc. This has been shown by her on-off attempts since dropping me to still somehow want control. Door was slammed firmly in her face.

 

OP, i don`t think anything you could have done would have changed anything. Self blame is so often the way with these things.

 

Good luck and keep posting.

[Downtown]

But that is what happens here. Someone sagely mentions narcissism and BPD and it all slots into place in the mind of the hurt individual. But we as humans often choose the findings that suit us best to "prove" and support our theories.

Elaine, granted, there is always a risk -- when acquiring knowledge -- that you may misuse that knowledge. Yet, unless you are anti-intellectual or are convinced the knowledge is dangerous, you will seek to acquire more knowledge. Certainly, that is my view: that knowledge is a good thing and that more of it is better than less -- even though some folks may misuse it.

 

With regard to the warning signs for PDs, I believe you are greatly overestimating the risk of misusing such information. Those red flags -- symptoms, actually -- are generally very easy to spot because we all have them to some degree. We therefore know what they feel like on the inside and look like from the outside. Indeed, before Male graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD.

 

Likewise, he could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. He could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, he should be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur -- if he takes a little time to learn what traits are on the list.

[Oneness]

There is an old saying...if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and looks like a duck...it's a duck. My exboyfriend was not a diagnosed borderline...he was diagnosed with PTSD and bipolar...he may very well have them, but they could not account for:

 

1) Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]

 

2) A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

 

3)Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

 

4)Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]

 

5)Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

 

6)Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

 

7)Chronic feelings of emptiness.

 

8)Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

 

9)Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

 

These are the traits of BPD...you have to have 5 of them to get the diagnoses of BPD. I showed these too him once...not telling him what they were..asked him if he saw himself in any of them...he said ALL OF THEM. So many of his behaviors that did not make sense suddenly made sense when I discovered BPD. Because I can't diagnose and neither can he, we would say he had the traits of BPD....and maybe some traits of ASPD thrown into the mix to give him that extra abusive and law breaking kicker...

[pie2]

OP ~ I hope you're able to take the information you read on the internet with a BIG grain of salt. You don't know us, we don't really know you. Some people genuinely want to help you for whatever reason (good heart, desire to give back, been there before, etc).

 

But other people have their own agendas. Odd agendas from people with mental health problems of their own.

 

I think you need to be careful about playing the blame game, if you really want to start down the road to a healthier, happier you. But, as you can see, many people haven't chosen that path. Instead, their what I consider stuck. Stuck in a mindset that isn't helping them be the best person they can be.

 

It'll be up to you to decide which path you want to take.

 

Best of luck OP. I hope you're able to resolve things in a healthy way, especially if you have a child with this woman.

 

God bless. Let me know if I can pray for you.

[SycamoreCircle]

The trouble with exes saying that their partner had no empathy, is that did the partner have a lack of empathy as a basic personality trait, in that they had no empathy for anyone or any living thing?

Or was the lack of empathy specific to the partner and borne out of lack of love, lack of caring and building resentment, even hate.

Did they still cry at sad movies, still give to kid's charities, still put themselves out for other people, but reserved their lack of empathy for a person and a relationship they had checked out of?

I also think that some grieving partners see the distancing of the ex as being a sign of lack of empathy when all the ex is doing is carving out a new life for themselves.

To answer your question, yes I would say my ex exhibited no empathy for anyone or anything around her.

 

-A few nights before we actually broke up, I took her to dinner. Everything was fine, until my gf began zeroing in on a neighboring table's(a couple's)conversation. The night ended with my gf ranting about the stupidity of both the people.

 

-During the break up, as my gf was packing up her belongings, I mentioned that a nice little old lady in the building that my gf was on friendly terms with had asked about her. "That lady is weird," she said. She had no interest in anything about her.

 

-She lied to her mother. Her mother shelled out nearly 6K to help her move out of my apartment under false claims. She tried to convince her mother that I had contrived information about myself.

 

I could just go on and on. The point is---I witnessed so many signs that my gf was no longer my gf, that she'd come under some kind of possession, that she was stark mad.

 

This black/white splitting done by the OP's girlfriend is right out of my relationship and the relationship of so many other people who find themselves in the midst of someone with narcissistic tendencies.

[Otter2569]

I have not read all the posts here but was in a similar crazy relationship. My advise is to RUN DON'T WALK away. I was given this advise and should have taken it.

 

This chic basically moved herself into my house and proceeded to watch every move i made. Tracked my time in the bathroom, how long it took to drive my kids to the bus stop, stood there as my phone blinked to watch me read my messages, asked to watch porn then yelled at me for watching porn....it was freaking crazy.

 

I moved her crap out one day while she was at work and told her never to come back. Of course she came back several times for sex - which was also a bad move. Crazy is crazy. Cut this ****. It took months maybe even a year to get her out of my life.

[Otter2569]

ok upon further review we don't have the same problems. My crazy GF was a self proclaimed nympho and would have sex 4 times a day. She did like crazy **** like being choked, being pissed on and liked to watch me jerk off.

 

Bottom line is if you are not getting what you need and you have tried and communicated your needs then move the F on. There is someone out better out there...trust me on this.

[dumbass2]

Male, private messaging is not permitted until you've been here a bit longer and written more posts. This is why other members are unable to PM you and you are unable to privately message them. For what it's worth, I agree with you that you're describing the classic warning signs for NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). And, as Ebelskiver said (Jan 30 post) in your "Sorry for Swearing" thread, you also are describing some red flags for BPD (Borderline PD).

 

If your GF does have strong narcissistic traits, her also having strong BPD traits would not be unusual. On the contrary, BPD is very common among narcissists. A recent large-scale study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 41% of the female narcissists also had co-occurring full-blown BPD. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

If you would like to learn how to spot the red flags for BPD, I would suggest you take a look at my list at 18 BPD Warning Signs. Like Ebelskiver, I suspect you will find some of those signs to sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, Male.

 

Hello Downtown,

Is it all right for me to PM you about this subject and what I might be dealing with?

Thanks

[BlueIris]

I cant go back to her but just want to convince myself im ok, i have loads of friends, great family and every1 of my exes still friends on facebook and still likes me in 1 way or another and says i was a great boyfriend …

 

I think you’re on the right track with this.

 

Counseling helped me a ton. I wondered and worried about whether I was ok, too- for months, maybe more than a year. It was pretty obsessive, like I was still in the relationship. Counseling helps you get off the hamster wheel, see what you did wrong (definitely want to change those things) and why, and it gives you tools for the future, like what behaviors and attitudes to avoid and how to leave someone more easily if you see those.

 

To me it doesn’t matter if the person fits one definition or another because I want to stay away from hurtful people, no matter what their problems might be. It isn't as though the label changes what I need to do. I went to a few Al-Anon meetings at my counselor’s suggestion because my thinking and behavior when I was with my ex was similar to that of many partners of alcoholics. I saw myself and my thinking in the people in the meetings, which is the point.

 

You mention having great friends, exes and family, so ask them what they think you could do better or differently in the future, or if they see any patterns or tendencies in your relationships. They’ve known you for a long time and certainly would have some insights.

 

Good luck. It’s not easy getting over a bad relationship, but you’ll get there.

Edited February 18, 2015 by BlueIris

[Invictus01]

I normally try to stay out of these topics because my opinion is a bit biased but what the hell...

 

Sure, we can say that nowadays everybody coming out of breakups just slaps some disorder label on the dumper and goes on with their lives. By the same token, we can also say that there are a ton of completely oblivious naive people out there who think that personality disorders only exist in Hollywood movies and only people like Charles Manson could be a sociopath or a narcissist. Would that be also a correct assessment?

 

But let's go back to those psychiatrists who are supposed to diagnose BPD. Yes, this is correct, only a psychiatrist can certify a personality disorder. But let's look at other things that those very same psychiatrists say on this subject. They are as important. (1) According to those very same psychiatrists, somewhere around 4-5% of Western population have various forms of personality disorder that could be diagnose. Go into a room of 100 people, up to 5 could be a PD person. (2) Again, according to those very same psychiatrists, the vast majority of people who could be diagnosed with a personality disorder for various reasons do not go for an evaluation so by default they cannot be diagnosed. Pick a number what the vast majority means to you. 80%? 90%? So, out of 4 or 5 people who could potentially be diagnosed with a PD, 1 will go into an evaluation. (3) Then again, according to those very same psychiatrists, a good portion of people who go for an evaluation for various reasons will be misdiagnosed with something else (depression, bipolar), given a bunch of meds that don't do a damn thing for a PD person and send back out in the world. (4) And, finally, according to those psychiatrists, out of those who go for an evaluation and are diagnosed as a PD, many will bail once they find out what it takes to improve (4-7 years of treatment) or will never even start the treatment to begin with. Now, keep all of this in mind. You have a group of 1,000 people with 5-10 diagnosed and treated PD patients and 40-50 undiagnosed misdiagnosed untreated PD people. THIS is also according to those very same psychiatrists we are talking about. Looking at these numbers, wouldn't it be prudent to know the signs of BPD and apply them whether a person is diagnosed or not? Does the fact that a person isn't professionally diagnosed with BPD for the reasons I listed above make that person any less mentally ill?

 

We all have one or two friends who stick around in absolutely insane (pun intended) relationships where they break up 25,000 times, get back together, get dumped for no reason, take that person back because he/she loves them all the sudden, go through this cycle again and again and again. And all the while there are people who tell them "Well, honey, that's just how some relationships are. Relationships are just hard work. You can change him/her. If he/she loves you, he/she will change. You will see, love conquers all! Go work on it, pumpkin!" Those people lose their lives, careers, finances, in all this. In the end, they lose their sanity and their souls while trying to change something they can't change but they and people around them don't understand what they are dealing with. And all the while, what they should be told is "You are dealing with a mentally ill person who will never change for anything or anybody because you are dealing with a grown up with the emotional development of a 5 year old. You could try to take him/her for a treatment but chances are that won't change anything either. If you decide to stick around, I wish you the best, but you might wanna look at yourself and try to figure out why you want to be in a relationship like this."

 

And last but not least... On Monday, for the first time in my life I will go to a psychiatrist myself because 3+ months out of a short 6 month relationship with somebody, I still feel mentally broken (and we only had one round). I want that guy from 6 months ago back, not what I am right now. Sure, people can laugh at me when I say that I strongly believe I have dealt with a person with BPD/NPD (I have my reasons to believe that, looking at her family history, her childhood, her relationship history, everything) Never once since I started dating have I ever looked at BPD. However, never once a relationship moved me to go to a psychiatrist either. People also can tell me it is all in my head. They would be correct too. It is all in my head. And so much so that I am willing to pay somebody $200/hour to figure out what it is that I got in my head right now, what is wrong with it and how it can be fixed. You know, just for $hits and giggles. Because I like to make up things in my head.

[Downtown]

Hello Downtown, Is it all right for me to PM you about this subject and what I might be dealing with?

Sure, DA. But, if you feel comfortable discussing it here on this open forum, I would recommend doing that. In that way, you will get diverse views from many experienced members. Moreover, by sharing your experiences openly, you likely will help numerous other members and lurkers. Toward that end, I posted in your most recent thread about "Women and Jerks." You nonetheless are welcome to PM me if you would feel too uncomfortable placing some information on the open forum. Take care, DA.

[Elias33]

Boy do I have stories...but I would have to get really drunk first. That nightmare is over now. I feel for you.

[Downtown]

Invictus, I share your view that, because PDs are not uncommon, it is prudent for anyone searching for a spouse to protect themselves by learning how to spot the warning signs. Significantly, this information is NOT dangerous. That's why hundreds of mental health centers are placing it online to educate the lay public. Moreover, learning to spot these red flags is not difficult because these PD traits are basic human behaviors that we all exhibit to some degree. We therefore are not talking about rocket science.

Somewhere around 4-5% of Western population have various forms of personality disorder that could be diagnose.

Actually, the incidence of PDs is now believed to be several times that number. Indeed, the lifetime incidence of BPD alone was found to be 6% in a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults (funded by the National Institutes of Health and published in 2008). If BPDers only formed LTRs with other BPDers, this finding would imply that 6% of all LTRs include a BPDer.

 

Yet, because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they strongly desire to be paired with a partner who is stable and has a strong personality -- so that partner can help to center and ground the BPDer and provide a sense of direction. Hence, BPDers nearly always enter long-term relationships with nonBPDers. I mention this to explain why, although BPDers account for only 6% of the population, they account for (i.e., are a part of) 12% of the long-term relationships. Moreover, the figure likely is larger than that because BPDers typically have more failed marriages and other failed LTRs than other folks do.

[SycamoreCircle]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/off-topic/water-cooler/514764-most-sociopathic-year-spoiler-alert

[BlueIris]

BPDers nearly always enter long-term relationships with nonBPDers. I mention this to explain why, although BPDers account for only 6% of the population, they account for (i.e., are a part of) 12% of the long-term relationships. Moreover, the figure likely is larger than that because BPDers typically have more failed marriages and other failed LTRs than other folks do.

 

That math doesn’t make sense to me.

 

Person with PD in a relationship + his or her partner = 1 relationship

 

Therefore,

 

people estimated to have BPD, say 6% – single people with BPD – people with BPD in relationships with other people who have BPD = the number of relationships that have someone with BPD

[Downtown]

That math doesn’t make sense to me.

Blue, perhaps it will be easier to see if I change the incidence of BPD to 50% of the population -- so as to make the math simpler. In that case, 50% of couples in LTRs (i.e., 50% of the LTRs) would be impacted by BPD issues if the BPDers only paired up together. Conversely, if each of the BPDers only pairs up with a nonBPDer, the share of couples including a BPDer doubles to 100% because every nonBPDer is paired together with a BPDer.

 

Similarly, when the incidence of BPD is 6%, that share doubles to 12% for the couples when you assume BPDers pair up only with nonBPDers. Hence, because BPDers seek out a stable partner with a strong personality, the share of relationships impacted by BPD is double that of its incidence in the general population because another 6% of the population -- i.e., the nonBPDers -- are pulled into the toxic relationships together with the BPDers. This is why I concluded that BPDers are a part of 12% of the LTRs.

[BlueIris]

Blue, perhaps it will be easier to see if I change the incidence of BPD to 50% of the population -- so as to make the math simpler. In that case, 50% of couples in LTRs (i.e., 50% of the LTRs) would be impacted by BPD issues if the BPDers only paired up together. Conversely, if each of the BPDers only pairs up with a nonBPDer, the share of couples including a BPDer doubles to 100% because every nonBPDer is paired together with a BPDer.

 

No.

 

Example:

The world population is 1,000

IF 6% of people are blondes, 60 people are blondes. The maximum # of relationships with a BPD member is limited to 60.

 

But, subtract all of the single blondes. (no relationship) Say 20 blondes are not in relationships.

60 blondes -20 single blondes =40 blondes in relationships

 

Then subtract the blondes in relationships with another blonde, say 10 of the 60.

40-10= 30

 

But the double blonde couples = 5 relationships.

30+5=35

 

There are 35 relationships in which one or more of the people in the relationship is a blonde.

 

The number of relationships in which someone has the trait is LESS than the number of people with the trait.

 

That's the math.

 

On a previous thread we discussed the different estimations of incidence of BPD. But even if we take the high figure you use, it doesn't can't mean that 12% of relationships have at least one partner who has BPD.

 

Anyway, OP is focusing on his healing and himself, which is great. I just wanted to point out that the figures you used- 12% of relationships have a BPD member, isn't mathematically accurate. So it isn't something that is a statistically high likelihood at all.

Edited February 20, 2015 by BlueIris

[Downtown]

The figures you used- 12% of relationships have a BPD member, isn't mathematically accurate.

No, Blue, my math is correct. What you are disagreeing with is my assumptions, not my math. If the population is 100 people and 6 are BPDers, then 6% of that population are BPDers. Yet, because the maximum number of relationships is ONE-HALF the population, those BPDers are involved in 12% of the relationships (i.e., 6 divided by 50) if we believe -- as I do -- they enter LTRs only with nonBPDers.

 

Of course, we would get a result less than 12% if we change the assumptions to allow a few of the BPDers to stay in LTRs with other BPDers -- or to assume that more of them remain single than is true for nonBPDers. I generally disagree with these assumptions you make because BPDers have a fragile, unstable sense of self identify and thus typically HATE to be alone and seek out LTRs with stable individuals who can provide that missing self-identity. It is these underlying assumptions -- not the math -- that you are taking issue with.

 

My view is that the 12% figure for BPDer relationships likely understates the extent of the BPDer issues we encounter here on LoveShack. One reason, as I noted above, is that BPDers generally enter into far more LTRs than the nonBPDers do. Because BPDers are unable to sustain their relationships, they jump from one failed LTR to another -- leaving a long trail of abused ex-partners and ex-spouses.

 

A second reason is that the 6% figure for BPD incidence includes only those with full-blown BPD, i.e., those meeting 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having BPD. It excludes those satisfying only 70% or 80% of the diagnostic criteria -- even though they may be nearly as impossible to live with as a person satisfying 100%.

 

A third reason is that those abused people leaving a BPDer relationship are much more likely (than the folks leaving a normal LTR) to come here to LoveShack to write about the abuse or cheating that has occurred. Indeed, BPD is notorious for making the abused partners so confused that many of them feel like they may be going crazy.

[BlueIris]

Well, each reader’s mathematical abilities will determine their conclusion. I guess I'm just pointing it out for readers so they can think it through.

[Radu]

If the 6% figure is correct, then it means that between 6-12% of relationships have a BPD individual ... assuming no affairs.

[elaine567]

If the 6% figure is correct, then it means that between 6-12% of relationships have a BPD individual ... assuming no affairs.

 

You are forgetting that some of the BPDers will not be in relationships, and some of the BPDers will be in relationships with other BPDers, so 12% is unrealistic.

[pie2]

....because BPDers seek out a stable partner with a strong personality, the share of relationships impacted by BPD...

 

Yet, because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they strongly desire to be paired with a partner who is stable and has a strong personality -- so that partner can help to center and ground the BPDer and provide a sense of direction. Hence, BPDers nearly always enter long-term relationships with nonBPDers.

 

People with truly strong, stable characters, sense of self, and emotions wouldn't get involved with someone with BPD. S/he would recognize the dysfunction and make better choices.

 

Denial is such a strong force. People who have gotten involved in such dysfunctional relationship have a role to play in their circumstances. Admitting that is the first step to recovery.

Edited February 21, 2015 by pie2

[Radu]

You are forgetting that some of the BPDers will not be in relationships, and some of the BPDers will be in relationships with other BPDers, so 12% is unrealistic.

 

That's exactly why i said 6-12%.

 

 

 

PS: Reading comprehension ftw.

[Downtown]

People with truly strong, stable characters, sense of self, and emotions wouldn't get involved with someone with BPD.

On the contrary, BPDers generally are very easy for stable folks to fall in love with. Moreover, the vast majority of BPDers are so high functioning that, until their infatuation fades after 4 to 6 months, they don't exhibit strong BPD warning signs. By then, many of those "truly strong, stable characters" have already started to fall in love with the BPDers.

 

The result is that BPDers typically have more sexual partners and enter into many more relationships than is true for "Nons" (nonBPDers). A recent meta-analysis (i.e., summary of multiple studies on this issue) found that "BPD features are associated with having more partners and engaging in more casual sexual relationships (citing Sansone & Wiederman, 2009)." See Nora Charles, Texas A&M Univ., Role of Biological and Social Factors (2011) at 22.

[Invictus01]

On the contrary, BPDers generally are very easy for stable folks to fall in love with. Moreover, the vast majority of BPDers are so high functioning that, until their infatuation fades after 4 to 6 months, they don't exhibit strong BPD warning signs. By then, many of those "truly strong, stable characters" have already started to fall in love with the BPDers.

 

The result is that BPDers typically have more sexual partners and enter into many more relationships than is true for "Nons" (nonBPDers). A recent meta-analysis (i.e., summary of multiple studies on this issue) found that "BPD features are associated with having more partners and engaging in more casual sexual relationships (citing Sansone & Wiederman, 2009)." See Nora Charles, Texas A&M Univ., Role of Biological and Social Factors (2011) at 22.

 

It's a lost cause dude. Unless somebody went through this kind of stuff, it is absolutely impossible to understand it.