Affairs and happy relationship

[Selfish]

And this is one reason why a bad marriage is not really a "reason" but an "excuse." There were other options but the WS chose not to avail themselves of them. That's an internal problem.

 

After my wife had inexplicably said she might want to separate but "wasn't sure," I discovered her 13 month affair. I kept it under my hat for a few days while I decided what to do (spoke to an attorney, hired a PI for evidence). But then on one particularly stressful morning, she shouted at me that she was "trying." I couldn't help but ask if that's what she was doing with the OM at the hotel just three nights prior. Trying my ass.

 

A bad spouse or marriage is just an excuse for an affair, and a lame one at that.

ex·cuse

 

noun \ik-ˈskyüs\ : a reason that you give to explain a mistake, bad behavior, etc.

 

I said myself it is a bad reason... but it still can be a reason. reasons aren't always good but it doesn't make them less of reasons. or excuses. and sometimes a WS does use it to excuse their actions of a cheating when they choose to cheat only to find out when reality hits that the reason they cheated while probably a valid concern doesn't excuse the cheating. But just because it doesn't excuse the cheating doesn't mean it wasn't one of the reasons they stepped out.

 

This conversation goes in circles though. I never said I thought ALL or even Most affairs occur because of a big issue in the marriage. BUt I won't discount that it happens. Nor will I say that the people who cheat out of a bad place because their marriage was sexless or some other huge issue would do so even in a good marriage. Because people and circumstances are diverse. And I don't think one size fits all. The thing is, the people who do blame themselves for the cheating are usually the ones who have done nothing. And the ones who were terrible spouses? They won't admit to their faults before hand and they most certainly wouldn't admit to their behaviour being factored in to their spouse's decision to cheat.

 

What if peaksand valleys hadn't discovered her husband's affair? What if instead someone she connected with had appeared in her life. She may or may not have cheated but he most definitely would have been tempted as she was already considering it. And why was she considering it? Because she was human. And humans when in difficult situations react differently. And often contemplate things they wouldn't. Those are reasons. Like it or not. And they all factor in when people are open minded and honest.

 

Or Janedoe, it is easy to think she would have cheated even if her husband hadn't cut of sex. But none of us know that because the reason she chose wrong and stepped out wasn't just her own personal problems it was also because the husband cut off sex. It was a factor.

 

But I get it, for some it is easier to just make things simple and have the cheaters and the non cheaters. And that the cheaters will always cheat no matter the situation and the non cheaters will never cheat. Personally, I do think there are people who are healthy enough and it is important enough to them to never have cheat (I don't always think this applies to everyone who hasn't cheated though). But I also don't think cheaters are some sort of cloned people. They don't fit into one little box that is labeled cheater. Life is way to diverse for that.

[BetrayedH]

ex·cuse

 

noun \ik-ˈskyüs\ : a reason that you give to explain a mistake, bad behavior, etc.

 

I said myself it is a bad reason... but it still can be a reason. reasons aren't always good but it doesn't make them less of reasons. or excuses. and sometimes a WS does use it to excuse their actions of a cheating when they choose to cheat only to find out when reality hits that the reason they cheated while probably a valid concern doesn't excuse the cheating. But just because it doesn't excuse the cheating doesn't mean it wasn't one of the reasons they stepped out.

 

This conversation goes in circles though. I never said I thought ALL or even Most affairs occur because of a big issue in the marriage. BUt I won't discount that it happens. Nor will I say that the people who cheat out of a bad place because their marriage was sexless or some other huge issue would do so even in a good marriage. Because people and circumstances are diverse. And I don't think one size fits all. The thing is, the people who do blame themselves for the cheating are usually the ones who have done nothing. And the ones who were terrible spouses? They won't admit to their faults before hand and they most certainly wouldn't admit to their behaviour being factored in to their spouse's decision to cheat.

 

What if peaksand valleys hadn't discovered her husband's affair? What if instead someone she connected with had appeared in her life. She may or may not have cheated but he most definitely would have been tempted as she was already considering it. And why was she considering it? Because she was human. And humans when in difficult situations react differently. And often contemplate things they wouldn't. Those are reasons. Like it or not. And they all factor in when people are open minded and honest.

 

Or Janedoe, it is easy to think she would have cheated even if her husband hadn't cut of sex. But none of us know that because the reason she chose wrong and stepped out wasn't just her own personal problems it was also because the husband cut off sex. It was a factor.

 

But I get it, for some it is easier to just make things simple and have the cheaters and the non cheaters. And that the cheaters will always cheat no matter the situation and the non cheaters will never cheat. Personally, I do think there are people who are healthy enough and it is important enough to them to never have cheat (I don't always think this applies to everyone who hasn't cheated though). But I also don't think cheaters are some sort of cloned people. They don't fit into one little box that is labeled cheater. Life is way to diverse for that.

 

I think the point people are trying to make is that cheaters may use the spouse or marriage as an excuse but it's never a valid one. So the state of the marriage is, quite frankly, irrelevant. There are some spouses in atrocious marriages that never cheat and some spouses in good marriages that do. Ultimately, the choice is an internal one as that has everything to do with the individual.

 

And please stop labeling those of us with a differing opinion as "simple" or suggesting that we need simple explanations that make one group the good guys and one group the bad guys. I, for one, am quite capable of complex ruminations on this subject. I am a former wayward myself, having engaged in a revenge affair. If anyone wanted to list my wife's affair (or the state of the marriage or a crappy spouse) as a reason, excuse or factor for my own affair, it could be me. But the fact of the matter is that it was a piss poor decision and one that was entirely my own. I will own my sh*t. Anything else is just blameshifting, plain and simple.

[jm2013]

ex·cuse

 

noun \ik-ˈskyüs\ : a reason that you give to explain a mistake, bad behavior, etc.

 

I said myself it is a bad reason... but it still can be a reason. reasons aren't always good but it doesn't make them less of reasons. or excuses. and sometimes a WS does use it to excuse their actions of a cheating when they choose to cheat only to find out when reality hits that the reason they cheated while probably a valid concern doesn't excuse the cheating. But just because it doesn't excuse the cheating doesn't mean it wasn't one of the reasons they stepped out.

 

This conversation goes in circles though. I never said I thought ALL or even Most affairs occur because of a big issue in the marriage. BUt I won't discount that it happens. Nor will I say that the people who cheat out of a bad place because their marriage was sexless or some other huge issue would do so even in a good marriage. Because people and circumstances are diverse. And I don't think one size fits all. The thing is, the people who do blame themselves for the cheating are usually the ones who have done nothing. And the ones who were terrible spouses? They won't admit to their faults before hand and they most certainly wouldn't admit to their behaviour being factored in to their spouse's decision to cheat.

 

What if peaksand valleys hadn't discovered her husband's affair? What if instead someone she connected with had appeared in her life. She may or may not have cheated but he most definitely would have been tempted as she was already considering it. And why was she considering it? Because she was human. And humans when in difficult situations react differently. And often contemplate things they wouldn't. Those are reasons. Like it or not. And they all factor in when people are open minded and honest.

 

Or Janedoe, it is easy to think she would have cheated even if her husband hadn't cut of sex. But none of us know that because the reason she chose wrong and stepped out wasn't just her own personal problems it was also because the husband cut off sex. It was a factor.

 

But I get it, for some it is easier to just make things simple and have the cheaters and the non cheaters. And that the cheaters will always cheat no matter the situation and the non cheaters will never cheat. Personally, I do think there are people who are healthy enough and it is important enough to them to never have cheat (I don't always think this applies to everyone who hasn't cheated though). But I also don't think cheaters are some sort of cloned people. They don't fit into one little box that is labeled cheater. Life is way to diverse for that.

 

Why are you defending cheating? If a WS feels the need to "step out" of the marriage why don't they just seek a divorce? Pretty simple right? Most affairs are for weak minded individuals who's lives would implode without their spouse. Probably mostly due to finances.

[gettingstronger]

Interesting you brought up weak minded- my husband and I were just talking about that last night-now, I am in no way saying my husband was not 100% responsible for his cheating, but he fully admits that our OW did manipulate his thinking and he was weak minded enough to allow it- she pursued him, she made all the effort and then when he was all in, it was like she was the only one he could share that ugly side of himself with-they considered themselves partners in crime-

 

Its kind of like I tell my kids- its easy to hang with the losers, they are the most accepting of all groups in school because there are no standards, nothing is off limits, once you are scraping bottom its nice to have company so you don't feel so awful for not living up to your own standards-

[dichotomy]

I'm not sure where some people have been reading. But I have been to many boards and I have read (here too ) many clear instances where the WS has tried everything But the thing they needed to do (leave) they did not and chose wrong. The reason the affair was an option is because of the bad state of the marriage. Peaksand valleys on here contemplated an affair because of how bad her marriage was only to discover her SO in a long term affair. Janedoe recounted over and over how she pleaded with her husband only to be told sex was not going to happen. And somehow these stories are overlooked because they don't fit a very narrowminded pov. There is such a fear of blame shifting and victim blaming that people aren't even allowed to tell where often the pain of their choice came from. And in my opinion that helps no one. acknowledging that sometimes very bad spouses get cheated on isn't saying they deserved it or the WS is excuses. what is so hard to understand about that? We all (almost all) agree that the best path to choose is not to compromise our integrity. But people choose wrong all the time.

 

What threatens people so much that even though there situation is the basic greedy WS to deny there were situations where the WS was in a desperate place? That both the WS and the BS are broken and while the WS chose cheating the BS may have chose to be abusive or what not. Everyone is so diverse. stories are so diverse. Don't simply close your eyes to a story because it doesn't fit what you want to believe. Someone else's experience won't change your own. and vice versa.

 

 

Janedoe was so tormented, she tried so hard with her asexual husband. Divorce happened, but she tore herself apart before hand. I really felt for her.

[TrustedthenBusted]

My wife tried to convince me she was unhappy and that's why she began her affair. But she ran into roadblocks everywhere.

 

The problem for her is back then, we took pictures of everything, and everywhere, and had boxes of cards and videos etc. Our life was great and we were constantly telling eachother how much we loved eachother and how excited we were about getting married.

 

Mind you.. it started 90 Days after we got back from an epic month long globetrotting honeymoon.

 

The timeline proved her desperation and revisionist history.

 

Then she said it was because she was depressed because she broke her leg snowboarding. but.... turns out that happened three months into the affair.

 

Then she said it was because she was jealous of my hot running coach. But...turns out I didn't meet that woman until almost a year after her affair ENDED.

 

Then it was because of her depression meds. And would you believe hospitals actually keep records of things like this.... so um... yeah... that was like 6 months into the affair.

 

Eventually she admitted that she was happy with me and our marriage, and has just always been a cheater. Never able to soak up enough attention, and a history of just luring people into her web for extra attention.

 

I can tolerate a lot, and have. And I can accept my faults and learn to be a better partner.

 

But what I would NOT accept was blame for an unhappy life, when it was clearly quite the contrary.

 

That said...SHE may have been unhappy inside, but if all I see are smiles, I-love-yous, and back to back to back to back happy wonderful memories, then hell... how would I know any better?

[autumnnight]

Choosing an action that you know will have hurtful or devastating effects on another person is just wrong. And that includes cheating. It is amazing how many people attempt to justify their actions by saying "well if X hadn't done Y, I wouldn't have done Z."

 

No matter that action chosen, that kind of thinking is called blameshifting. Whether it be an affair or a threat or anything else. And when people choose such hurtful or damaging actions....there ARE ALWAYS consequences.

 

Always.

[Spark1111]

you know what I see a lot of in arguing my unhappy marriage made me do it?

 

Romanticism, and according to the late, great Dr. Frank Pittman, romanticism causes more infidelity and screws up more relationships than anything else.

 

It is the belief that love and attraction HAPPEN to you Rather than CREATING it and having an active role in keeping it alive.

 

It's an ideology that demands, what am I getting, as opposed to what am I giving.

 

Scientists....not counselors, sociologists, psychiatrists...Scientists believe the two most important traits to bring to a long term, happy relationship are kindness and generosity.

 

There is nothing less kind or more selfish than lying and betraying the trust of a loved one, IMO.

[badkarma2013]

you know what I see a lot of in arguing my unhappy marriage made me do it?

 

Romanticism, and according to the late, great Dr. Frank Pittman, romanticism causes more infidelity and screws up more relationships than anything else.

 

It is the belief that love and attraction HAPPEN to you Rather than CREATING it and having an active role in keeping it alive.

 

It's an ideology that demands, what am I getting, as opposed to what am I giving.

 

Scientists....not counselors, sociologists, psychiatrists...Scientists believe the two most important traits to bring to a long term, happy relationship are kindness and generosity.

 

There is nothing less kind or more selfish than lying and betraying the trust of a loved one, IMO.

*****************************************************************

Some damage cannot be repaired and some lies and acts of betrayal can never be forgotten.....badkarma

[Confused48]

What about very attractive people? By that I mean married people that get hit on more than others. Men who are extremely successful, women with great physical beauty and charm, they certainly have more opportunities to cheat.

 

Perhaps that is not so different from married people who are in what they consider bad relationships. They have more motivation to cheat.

 

In either case you have to also have a moral / ethical blind spot. The other characteristic, be it attractiveness or personal dissatisfaction, will not cause you to cheat.

[Striver]

What about very attractive people? By that I mean married people that get hit on more than others. Men who are extremely successful, women with great physical beauty and charm, they certainly have more opportunities to cheat.

 

Perhaps that is not so different from married people who are in what they consider bad relationships. They have more motivation to cheat.

 

In either case you have to also have a moral / ethical blind spot. The other characteristic, be it attractiveness or personal dissatisfaction, will not cause you to cheat.

 

The woman got hit on before she was married and likely learned her market value and how to fend men off.

 

I guess it might be more of a problem if the market value changes after marriage, but there is the whole better or worse thing. A lot of people would be grateful for the spouse that was interested even when they were poor or unattractive, instead of ditching them because they can "do better."

[atreides]

Can anybody be that dense that they don’t exactly know what they want in the relationship until OM/OW enters their life?

 

What I’m more inclined to believe nowadays is that the cheating tendency is always there in the cheaters, albeit in the incipient form, even when they love their spouse in their own way.

 

I have read more of this thread and there is a lot of back and forth on "simple" vs "complex" or "once a cheater" and most of all, "a cheater" and "non-cheater"

 

I wanted to elaborate on this and the above quote...

 

First, about being dense and not knowing what one wants... this actually is much larger than relationships, many can't even answer that very question for the smallest to the largest of things in life.

 

About "cheating tendency" as in "always in the cheater"... cheating is an "addictive substance" and therefore can and is most of the time an addiction that we can relate to coping, life issues, what have you.. and therefore, none of us are excluded from this. Some fall to other forms of addictions while others to cheating...

 

Therefore i do not see it as those that "are cheaters" vs "non-cheaters" as it is an "action" and not a "person" or "subject." It does not define a person in that sense but it is a "part of the person" IE our demons we must deal with.

 

There are other issues involved of course as with serial cheaters, or those that have had very harsh pasts and experiences in their lives that they have never healed themselves from and therefore compound the problems by creating more.

 

Cheating like other addictions lands a person as being "an addict" many times more than not as a label others asses. Thus the "one a cheater" mantra and much like so many that "fall off the wagon," yet again. Many times we delude ourselves that we are over our demons and blame other things.. like our marriages, our spouse, our kids, our stress and so on and never really fix what needs fixing.

This goes with any addiction, as i have heard alcoholics in my own family use those very excuses. Thus the real issue at hand is for the wayward to face themselves in the mirror and not let those actions define them and i don't mean by being spiteful as to being an antagonist to "being judged" or "i am only human" mantra.. we should always hold ourselves to higher standards and when we fail... we should acknowledge it and know that "it is of ourselves" and what we can do to get "back on the horse" and at all costs avoid changing the standard to suit your needs.

 

This is why i have great respect for the waywards here on LS whom have or are going through fixing their demons by acknowledging it as of themselves and are working hard to right them.

This is also why I feel former waywards add great value to LS despite those that forever place the "scarlet a" on them, so long as they have shown self-reflection and healing, the action they once did should not be allowed to define them.

[Mr. Lucky]

The common denominator for WS that successfully R is humility. That quality precludes all the damaging post A behaviors - trickle truthing, deception, blame shifting, etc - that many BS react to when WS post. Absent humility, no chance for the marriage to recover ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[star gaze]

Atreides: Thank you for the great post.

 

Yes, from what I have seen around, cheating IS an addiction, and the addictive personality disorders may also have some role in it. As for the “cheating tendency”, I think it has various forms like lack of empathy, conflict avoidance, selfishness, seeking of external validation, narcissism etc. I don’t mean people with any of these issues will cheat for sure, because most of the time sex and power and emotional high they can get from affairs simply are not high in their priorities so they invest in other avenues.

 

IMO, we all have these (relative lack of empathy etc) to some degrees which may increase with time and situation; but I do believe that there is a threshold somewhere that enables people to hurt those they claim to love. This is why, I also believe that everyone is fallible, and recognizing that, I place boundaries and precautions in my conduct.

 

I also don’t believe that “once a cheater, always a cheater” because everyone can change with self-reflection and effort, and many times consequences real or projected are real eye openers. I’m not the same boy who stole cash from my dad’s wallet.

 

Mr. Lucky: Humility, honesty and empathy, for me. (not in that particular order)

[flowergirl14]

For me, this post has been one of the most valuable. Like many bs I've read and read trying to find answers. So many of you posted things here that I like or agree with. I felt like finally, this is what I needed or wanted to hear. Thanks all the ls participants.

My husband kept telling me..its not you it's me. For some reason I couldn't accept this. I've been trying to "see" my role in his affair. I've finally accepted that it truly is his A his problems. I am a good person, loving wife, good mother. I am not to blame. Going forward I will not accept blameshifting. Period.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Ya know, I started a thread once asking how many WS sought counseling, either IC or MC to deal with these really huge marital problems....and withholding sex was definitely alluded to by many, before they cheated on their partner.

 

Not a single one. Amazing, no?

 

It surely amazed me.

 

I asked how many sat their partner down and said, if A, B and C does not happen in this relationship, it will be a deal breaker for me and I will seek it elsewhere with someone else.

 

Not a single one.

 

So, I wonder, really wonder, was their marriage that bad? Or are they not so good at long term relationships?

 

I still wonder that....

 

I'm sure I chimed in on that thread.

 

My WW's affair started right after our 2nd anniversary. By HER account we were still in the honeymoon phase, and happily married when she met OM at work.

 

Not only were we in a "happy marriage", but she never mentioned IC or MC before, during, or after her affair. Once she confessed years later we started to go to IC and MC. I remember having a discussion about her silence and rug sweeping. I asked in disbelief: "Do you mean you never said to yourself 'WTF did I do? Holy crap, I had an affair! Maybe I should talk to someone." Nope, she never considered IC or MC post-affair.

 

Over the years I've concluded that cheaters cheat because they want to. That really is the bottom line. No one makes them have sex with the AP. They have affairs because they want to. Good marriage, bad marriage; it doesn't matter. A BS can go crazy trying to answer the Why's and How-could-you's.

[merrmeade]

Ya know, I started a thread once asking how many WS sought counseling, either IC or MC to deal with these really huge marital problems....and withholding sex was definitely alluded to by many, before they cheated on their partner.

 

Not a single one. Amazing, no?

 

It surely amazed me.

 

I asked how many sat their partner down and said, if A, B and C does not happen in this relationship, it will be a deal breaker for me and I will seek it elsewhere with someone else.

 

Not a single one.

Wow. Just wow. I did not know about this. SO glad to read this... Convinces me that it is reasonable to assume that my H's OW (sister-in-law) is probably in the same place of justification as two years ago.

[merrmeade]

What about very attractive people? By that I mean married people that get hit on more than others. Men who are extremely successful, women with great physical beauty and charm, they certainly have more opportunities to cheat.

...

In either case you have to also have a moral / ethical blind spot. The other characteristic, be it attractiveness or personal dissatisfaction, will not cause you to cheat.

Bingo. Never saw this point clarified so well. Describes my H. Both of us actually. To a point. Unusual attractiveness, helpful, charming, etc. Hit on all the time. Thought he resisted. Find out years later: I did but he so did not.

 

I think there's another factor. BS cluelessness. The ONLY way I will admit enabling him is this: (1) I would travel. Be gone 3-4 months at a time. That's when it would happen. (2) When I did have reason to suspect, however, I could not get my mind around it and dismissed cues.

 

I think those two factors — attraction/temptation + spousal absence/unawareness — were as important as the entitlement/character flaw factor for the serial nature of my H's cheating.

 

It was NOT the marriage. He says this plainly.

Edited December 30, 2014 by merrmeade