Jehovah's Witnesses and my Wife

[pureinheart]

Some Christian denominations teach that accepting Jesus is the path to heaven. I think jw accept Jesus, so your souls will be together.

 

I can't imagine god is excluding those who got the details wrong.

 

This detail is without a doubt the most important detail where Christianity is concerned. Many 'accept' Jesus, but it goes much further- while it's the easiest, it's also the 'hardest' detail to accept.

[M30USA]

Hence, that's why I said the "end point" of solipsism is that all world views are equally valid. If each of our "selves" are the only thing that exists, then we are the only legitimate standard for judging our truth and we can't be compared to anyone else by any standard. That's the end result. You cant just look up a term in one sentence and comprehend the entire concept. (BTW, according to your worldview, you can't debate this because we could each have our own definition of Solipsism in the first place.)

[M30USA]

That's if you believe that little fantasy, which in any case, has been widely accepted as a fairy tale to try to explain how life on earth began. It's just a story, nothing more.

And it's typical of Biblical bias against women, in that obviously, it's all the woman's fault things went belly-up.

 

Don't forget that Goddesses were hailed as superior to men, once upon a time, and that Mary, as Christ's mother, apparently never put a foot wrong. In fact, she and Mary Magdalene played a much bigger part in the story iof Christ than Church leaders - both past and present - are willing to acknowledge. Women still draw the short straw when it comes to their roles in Religious leanings.

 

So let's not steer this down the "women are weak-willed, impressionable and fickle creatures who do nothing but create a world of hurt, if not kept in check" route.

 

Adam and Eve were not the first beings on earth. I don't know what little "fairy tale" you're talking about. Maybe the one you were taught by misguided Sunday school teachers?

 

Regardless, your real issue seems to be with creation, itself. Evolution doesn't even explain creation (or to use a term you might prefer, "appearance of matter"). All we can ever explain is what happened AFTER things appeared. Anyone who tells you otherwise has never understood science or they haven't yet clarified terms.

[Davey L]

Ultimately your wife decides what she believes, yes. But you still have a big influence. Remember two things: 1) Eve was deceived while Adam was away from her and, implicitly, not watching over her. 2) What Eve believed wound up bringing Adam down with her, either because of his love for her or just logical inevitability.

 

Yes I have a big influence but with that comes the responsibility to use that influence wisely, and that is what I am struggling with; I do not have the wisdom that this requires. This is why I am soliciting points of view here to supplement the possibly polarised points of view that I have received from my church and will receive from the RC church.

[Davey L]

Some Christian denominations teach that accepting Jesus is the path to heaven. I think jw accept Jesus, so your souls will be together.

 

I can't imagine god is excluding those who got the details wrong.

 

My concern here is whether it is just detail or more fundamental than that. I have been told that JWs do not accept Jesus is God himself, which is basic to the definition of Christianity.

[M30USA]

My concern here is whether it is just detail or more fundamental than that. I have been told that JWs do not accept Jesus is God himself, which is basic to the definition of Christianity.

 

That's exactly what I've been trying to get at. The reason it's so important is because, if Jesus is not God, then WHO is?

 

This is why Jesus rebuked those who, while claiming to believe in God (the Father), rejected Christ. He said if you really did believe in the father, as you claim, you would believe in ME, for I and the Father are ONE. But the reason you do not believe in me is because your father is the devil. (Yes, Jesus said this.)

 

It's not just a technicality. When God came to us, he asked us: "Do you believe that I am He?" The question is packed with implications. If you say no (that he isn't God), then you are implying that God is someone ELSE (with a different character and personhood). Big implications. Most people don't see this.

Edited November 26, 2014 by M30USA

[Davey L]

That's exactly what I've been trying to get at. The reason it's so important is because, if Jesus is not God, then WHO is?

 

This is why Jesus rebuked those who, while claiming to believe in God (the Father), rejected Christ. He said if you really did believe in the father, as you claim, you would believe in ME, for I and the Father are ONE. But the reason you do not believe in me is because your father is the devil. (Yes, Jesus said this.)

 

It's not just a technicality. When God came to us, he asked us: "Do you believe that I am He?" The question is packed with implications. If you say no (that he isn't God), then you are implying that God is someone ELSE (with a different character and personhood). Big implications. Most people don't see this.

 

When I spoke with our chaplain at work this was his main concern. You need to believe in Jesus as God, that He came to Earth and died for our sins, was resurrected and is one with God. And that JW's do not believe that.

[beach]

When I was young I dated a guy who was JW. Nicest guy but the differences in what we believed and the traditions we celebrated (or not) were too big to overlook.

 

Why don't you do research on what the JW's believe and how they live? Until you educate yourself you are really only going by what other people say to you.

 

I found them to be very nice, honest and hard working people. Willing to support each other as a group and do anything for others (except change religions).

[Davey L]

When I was young I dated a guy who was JW. Nicest guy but the differences in what we believed and the traditions we celebrated (or not) were too big to overlook.

 

Why don't you do research on what the JW's believe and how they live? Until you educate yourself you are really only going by what other people say to you.

 

I found them to be very nice, honest and hard working people. Willing to support each other as a group and do anything for others (except change religions).

 

I have also found them nice and unfailingly polite. You are right I need to find out more about them and their beliefs.

[M30USA]

Wait a second. Hold up. Are we talking about PERSONALITY or DOCTRINE? These are two separate issues.

[beach]

That's exactly what I've been trying to get at. The reason it's so important is because, if Jesus is not God, then WHO is?

 

This is why Jesus rebuked those who, while claiming to believe in God (the Father), rejected Christ. He said if you really did believe in the father, as you claim, you would believe in ME, for I and the Father are ONE. But the reason you do not believe in me is because your father is the devil. (Yes, Jesus said this.)

 

It's not just a technicality. When God came to us, he asked us: "Do you believe that I am He?" The question is packed with implications. If you say no (that he isn't God), then you are implying that God is someone ELSE (with a different character and personhood). Big implications. Most people don't see this.

 

They don't believe in the trinity. They believe the three to all be separate.

 

No holidays are celebrated. Not even birthdays.

 

Their idea and proof of what the "afterlife" is very different than Christians.

 

They can quote the bible to their advantage - I give them that.

 

But it's just a book...

[evanescentworld]

Wait a second. Hold up. Are we talking about PERSONALITY or DOCTRINE? These are two separate issues.

If you're anything to go by, that's questionable.....?

 

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion, out of respect for the OP and topic.

 

If you want me, you know where to find me.

 

[M30USA]

Yes, JWs know the Bible better than 90% of Christians. That's a compliment to them and an embarrassment to us. However, knowledge of Scripture, alone, does not save. The very people who knew the Bible BEST in Jesus' day were the ones who rejected him (the Scribes and Priests).

[M30USA]

If you're anything to go by, that's questionable.....?

 

That's an honor, thanks. It means I'm doing my job of professing the Gospel. Christ prophecied his true representatives would always be rejected and hated.

[beach]

I don't personally think that it's one way and everyone else's way is wrong.

 

I don't judge and I don't make that decision for others.

 

Thinking I am right and others would be wrong would mean I am judging.

 

I believe what works for me and I respect that others believe what works for them.

 

The JW just may be right? Jews? Buddhists? Heck, they all may be right.

 

But I'm not going to marry one of them knowing their way isn't changing and it doesn't work for me.

 

I do admire their work though. I understand that when a person shows even the SLIGHTEST bit of interest they put you on a list to return for more "visits".

[M30USA]

Thinking I am right and others would be wrong would mean I am judging.

 

If someone says 2+2=5, are they incorrect?

[beach]

If someone says 2+2=5, are they incorrect?

 

That's math. You know that's completely different and off topic.

[M30USA]

That's math. You know that's completely different and off topic.

 

Plato believed the principles of math also apply to rational thought processes.

[whichwayisup]

You know your wife, so if you feel her being involved with JW is a good thing, support her. If you feel she's changing and her views on life in general is skewed towards JW way of thinking and their lifestyle (no celebrating holidays, birthday's, etc..etc.. and their views on medical procedures, refusing blood transfusions etc) is negatively impacting her and your life together, then you can step in and talk to her. All I know about it is through my own personal experience with a good friend of mine who totally changed and it ruined our friendship for a while, as well as her relationship with her parents, siblings and other friends. We are back on track, she left JW many years ago and can't believe how much they warped her way of thinking and believing, not just religion, but life in general. Others have different experiences, maybe better ones, but my friend TOTALLY changed and not in a good way. She was bossy, trying to convince me to convert, preached and cut people out of her life who weren't believers. IT was bad...

[M30USA]

Resources on this topic from rock-solid Bible teachers:

 

Respond to the heresy of Jehovah's Witnesses - YouTube

 

[Ronni_W]

Davey L,

There really isn't any real cause for concern that you and your wife will not be in the same heaven, at any point in the future. Jesus and his legions are not going to show up in Rome, OR at JW headquarters, OR at some other outer religion's headquarters.

 

You and your wife will end up in exactly the same place as long as you each are following God's Laws and the Living Word of God, which is the same as the Word of the Living Christ. Meaning, it doesn't matter the building you each worship at or the rituals you follow, but what is in your true hearts and that you each are striving to attain your individual God-given right as a son or daughter of God...just as Jesus did.

When I spoke with our chaplain at work this was his main concern. You need to believe in Jesus as God, that He came to Earth and died for our sins, was resurrected and is one with God. And that JW's do not believe that.

Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. He said he was a son of God. God has never embodied on Earth (as the Omnipotent, All-Present, All-That-Is, that God is -- the matter universe couldn't even accommodate that!) God has no "personhood" or "character". God is not a "someone". Jesus was/is an historical character/person who actually did walk the Earth.

 

If Jesus was/is God, what did he mean when he said, (paraphrasing) "What I can do you can do also, and more"? -- that we are ALL God???

If God was embodied on Earth at the time Jesus walked the Earth, who was standing in God's place? Who was minding the Fort, so to speak???

If Jesus was/is God, why on Earth go through the pain and suffering of the crucifixion? Why not just decree or issue a fiat, to accomplish what Jesus came to accomplish through his Mission?

If Jesus was/is God, is Mother Mary Jesus' mother? (No wait...there is nothing before God, so He has no parents.)

 

"I and my Father are one" means that God was working through Jesus; that Jesus had completely, totally, absolutely surrendered to the Will of God who was/is his Father (although sometimes he was referring to his spiritual master/guru, who is his spiritual father); that Jesus had decided to be and was the open door through which God (and the Holy Spirit) could - and did - work. A clear channel, if you will; the clearest.

 

Jesus' teachings are that the Kingdom of God is within. Meaning one does not need an outer "saviour" or religion to attain one's own salvation, redemption, ascension.

 

Jesus did allow himself to be crucified to alleviate the burden of Earth people's fallen consciousness...but not to wipe out all past, present and future sin, forever and ever. We still are responsible to get ourselves into the Kingdom of God. Jesus only came to show us the Way; not to do our work for us.

 

Davey L, the inner is more important than the outer. If you and your wife make sure to stay in alignment with the Living Word and the Living Christ, on the inner, then you'll end up in heaven together.

 

Sweat that part of it. Not the actual building of where it's happening, or rituals of how it's happening. But. Do sweat the part that's actually important.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Ronni_W
clarification

[M30USA]

Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. He said he was a son of God

 

He never claimed to be the FATHER. Correct. But what you just said here fails to acknowledge the reality of God as three persons. Christ certainly did claim to be one of these three. He said, "I and the Father are one." He also said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Jesus also referred to himself as "I AM," which is the name of God. Additionally, Jesus was killed because the Jews fully understood that Jesus was making himself EQUAL to God.

 

Your view of Christ is the product of Arianism, and is evident in Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, and Jehoviah's Witnesses. What they all have in common is that, in the end, Christ is a mere creation who does not have the exact character of God in the material world.

 

Regardless of everything I just said, you cannot explain away John chapter 1.

[TheFinalWord]

If Jesus was/is God, what did he mean when he said, (paraphrasing) "What I can do you can do also, and more"? -- that we are ALL God???

 

In John 14, Jesus was telling the disciples they would receive the Holy Spirit, not that they were God. And the things they would do be used to testify about Jesus, not to seek their own glory. These actions can be reviewed in the book of Acts, in which Peter is imprisoned for testifying Christ. Recall what Jesus said, that the one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.

 

“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

 

If God was embodied on Earth at the time Jesus walked the Earth, who was standing in God's place? Who was minding the Fort, so to speak???

 

God the father was in heaven. God the Father testified from heaven of Jesus during his baptism. The gospels show how this is entirely consistent:

 

And when Jesus was baptized (*notice this occurred when Jesus was physically on the earth), immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

 

If Jesus was/is God, why on Earth go through the pain and suffering of the crucifixion? Why not just decree or issue a fiat, to accomplish what Jesus came to accomplish through his Mission?

 

He went through it for US. He did not need to die for sin; it was for this reason, His sacrifice can count for us.

 

God is a God of Justice. He cannot just overlook sin. God is a judge. Can a a human judge let a murderer go without paying for their crime? Sure, some do and we call them corrupt for letting a criminal go that is guilty. God is just and there is no darkness or shadow of turning in Him.

 

If Jesus was/is God, is Mother Mary Jesus' mother? (No wait...there is nothing before God, so He has no parents.)

 

The Word became a human being and dwelt among us. John the Baptist said Jesus was greater than Him because He existed before he (John) was born. Consider this from hearing the prophet John. John said Christ was greater than him because He (Jesus) existed before he was born; yet, John said Jesus will come after him and his role was to prepare the way for Him (Jesus). So John answers how this is possible for us; Jesus was before John, yet his ministry came after his.

 

The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son. John spoke about him. He cried out, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘He comes after me, but he is greater than I am, because he existed before I was born.’”

 

John answered them, I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.”

Edited November 27, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[BC1980]

When I spoke with our chaplain at work this was his main concern. You need to believe in Jesus as God, that He came to Earth and died for our sins, was resurrected and is one with God. And that JW's do not believe that.

 

You are correct in that JWs do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. According to Christian doctine, JWs are not Christians. I have family who are JWs, so I am fairly familiar with the religion, often charged as being a cult actually. I'm not sure if I agree with the cult moniker, but many do levy that claim. In my experience, they will try vigorously to covert you.

 

My family practiced what they call "disfellowshipping," which is when JWs essentially cut off family members if they are unwilling to convert. JWs also do this to those who have left the faith. You need to look into that concept because it could affect your marriage. Once your wife converts, I would be shocked if she would not try to aggressively convert you. Disfellowshipping means that they will have no contact with family or friends who are not JWs. They practice it to varying extremes. Some family members outright never spoke to my immediate family again.

 

My great grandmother cut my grandmother off because she would not convert to JW. That's how serious it is. My grandmother's sisters would not speak to her anymore. I believe that one sister tried to reach out at one point, but the damage was done after decades of not speaking. JWs tend to be very isolated from anyone who is not JW. My advice would be to seek a divorce if she converts because that is where it will lead.

[M30USA]

You are correct in that JWs do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. According to Christian doctine, JWs are not Christians. I have family who are JWs, so I am fairly familiar with the religion, often charged as being a cult actually. I'm not sure if I agree with the cult moniker, but many do levy that claim. In my experience, they will try vigorously to covert you.

 

My family practiced what they call "disfellowshipping," which is when JWs essentially cut off family members if they are unwilling to convert. JWs also do this to those who have left the faith. You need to look into that concept because it could affect your marriage. Once your wife converts, I would be shocked if she would not try to aggressively convert you. Disfellowshipping means that they will have no contact with family or friends who are not JWs. They practice it to varying extremes. Some family members outright never spoke to my immediate family again.

 

My great grandmother cut my grandmother off because she would not convert to JW. That's how serious it is. My grandmother's sisters would not speak to her anymore. I believe that one sister tried to reach out at one point, but the damage was done after decades of not speaking. JWs tend to be very isolated from anyone who is not JW. My advice would be to seek a divorce if she converts because that is where it will lead.

 

Ah...so the truth comes out. Turns out life won't be all peachy keen with everyone's views equally respected. Such is the story with the tolerance garbage. You tolerate another religion, then it doesn't tolerate YOU in response. As I always say: there is no neutral ground in this world. Even the "coexist" people, if given authority, will stuff their views down your throat. Might as well just fight for you and your wife. She's YOUR wife and not somebody else's.