Housing issues with ex wife of former MM

[Redheaded Mistress]

Oh, no - he just spoke with them about the fact that she had contacted us and is looking at losing her place. He wanted to know if they wanted him to help her. They all said no. He presented it neutrally and just told them, "if you want me to help her, I will because she is your Mom and your feelings and happiness are important to me". He was very relieved that they all said no because he doesn't want to help her (but didn't express that to them obviously). He believes that the sooner she hits rock bottom the sooner his children can hope to have a sane mother.

 

I understand. Just in the future, probably best to do what you're going to do without involving the kids. This is grownup stuff, they shouldn't be helping make decisions about their mother's living situation or be made aware of her struggles. Even if they're older, they're still kids and shouldn't have to mediate their parent's divorce. Especially with an RO in effect, which limits what you can do even if they said they wanted him to help. At 15, you can't even drive yet... The guilt of "did I tell my Dad something that ended up making my mom homeless?" isn't something they need.

 

We had our discussion completely separate from them. We are very careful about what we say or do in front of them regarding her. She has attempted to physically attack me on the street multiple times and even though I could really harm her, I have yet to fight back due to his children being present. We are very aware of their needs and feelings and that is always first and foremost on our minds when having to deal with her. She's actually very lucky that they share children because if they didn't she would be much worse off regarding our reactions to her behaviors.

 

Which is why it's especially important, given her behavior, that you guys work to build her up as much as possible to the kids. Even if you aren't a fan of hers and she's not one of yours. Actually, especially if you guys hate each other.

 

Like for example, we had the kids and it was his ex's day to pick up the kids. She sent a text 15 minutes before she was supposed to come and said she wanted us to keep them an extra hour because she wasn't feeling good, then we could drop them off. My husband said we couldn't drop them off, we had plans, she had to pick them up as was set up on the schedule 4 weeks ago. She flew off the handle and refused to get them, so we said we'd just keep them for the night and just be done with it.

 

When it came to telling the kids, they were really upset because they were expecting her to come get them like normal. Lots of tears and "why isn't she picking us up?" We didn't say "your mom is really acting out today and she won't come get you and we can't drop you off because we had an event we were hosting, so you're staying here tonight." We said "we got a text from Mom that she's feeling really sick, so you're staying here overnight so she can feel better." Then we made get well cards for her.

 

It was a total lie, she as just being a witch and trying to cross lines and push boundaries. But they don't need to know that. The discussion with her via text was in a separate room with poker faces on all, the discussion on what to do was while they were upstairs playing and we were in the office with the door closed, and coming back to deliver the news was that only something totally out of her control would have kept her from being there, like being sick, and reinforcing that by making her cards so they can still nurture the attachment, temper their concern for her feeling ill, and not have to deal with the fact that their mother is unreliable and selfish.

 

Love her or hate her, she did give your family kids with the man you love, and they are a part him too. On that level, that the kids are the melding of the person you love and a person they love, it's best to not undermine that in their eyes by involving them in the adult dynamics of a messy divorce.

[Got it]

I understand. Just in the future, probably best to do what you're going to do without involving the kids. This is grownup stuff, they shouldn't be helping make decisions about their mother's living situation or be made aware of her struggles. Even if they're older, they're still kids and shouldn't have to mediate their parent's divorce. Especially with an RO in effect, which limits what you can do even if they said they wanted him to help. At 15, you can't even drive yet... The guilt of "did I tell my Dad something that ended up making my mom homeless?" isn't something they need.

 

 

 

Which is why it's especially important, given her behavior, that you guys work to build her up as much as possible to the kids. Even if you aren't a fan of hers and she's not one of yours. Actually, especially if you guys hate each other.

 

Like for example, we had the kids and it was his ex's day to pick up the kids. She sent a text 15 minutes before she was supposed to come and said she wanted us to keep them an extra hour because she wasn't feeling good, then we could drop them off. My husband said we couldn't drop them off, we had plans, she had to pick them up as was set up on the schedule 4 weeks ago. She flew off the handle and refused to get them, so we said we'd just keep them for the night and just be done with it.

 

When it came to telling the kids, they were really upset because they were expecting her to come get them like normal. Lots of tears and "why isn't she picking us up?" We didn't say "your mom is really acting out today and she won't come get you and we can't drop you off because we had an event we were hosting, so you're staying here tonight." We said "we got a text from Mom that she's feeling really sick, so you're staying here overnight so she can feel better." Then we made get well cards for her.

 

It was a total lie, she as just being a witch and trying to cross lines and push boundaries. But they don't need to know that. The discussion with her via text was in a separate room with poker faces on all, the discussion on what to do was while they were upstairs playing and we were in the office with the door closed, and coming back to deliver the news was that only something totally out of her control would have kept her from being there, like being sick, and reinforcing that by making her cards so they can still nurture the attachment, temper their concern for her feeling ill, and not have to deal with the fact that their mother is unreliable and selfish.

 

Love her or hate her, she did give your family kids with the man you love, and they are a part him too. On that level, that the kids are the melding of the person you love and a person they love, it's best to not undermine that in their eyes by involving them in the adult dynamics of a messy divorce.

 

I disagree with this part. If he didn't say something and tell them their mom was losing her place they could be upset with him for not doing anything. While I can see, and wholeheartedly agree, that the kids should not be placed in the middle this is one where I would have a discussion.

 

This situation is far more severe than the run of the mill squabbling most situations are dealing with. I agree that we have had issues with my husband's ex wife and nothing is ever said to the kids. But there is no mental or physical issues happening with any party to need to elevate the issues.

 

My one suggestion, for this situation, is family counseling for the kids. This is hard having a parent with a mental illness and a professional will be able to help them navigate the waters better.

 

I don't agree with lying to the kids either about things. So in your situation, I would have just told the kids there was a change in plans and they were going to stay there for the night. Telling them their mom was sick was a lie and one they could have easily found out.

 

I get it, it is hard especially when dealing with these issues. We dealt with parental alienation and my husband had to seek an attorney specifically geared towards father's rights to finally get things to stop. Prior to that the kids where pushed into the middle of everything, privy to far more than they should have been, and used as weapons.

[Redheaded Mistress]

I disagree with this part. If he didn't say something and tell them their mom was losing her place they could be upset with him for not doing anything.

 

So why tell them that you know and have chosen to not do anything and remove the doubt? Or worse, tell them you know she's losing her home and letting them be the ones to decide to help her or not? Now the children could feel that they had a role in their mother's homelessness. With the RO in place, their involvement is an illusion anyway... What if they said give her money or help her find a new place or let her move in with them? They can do none of those things because of the RO. Then what was the point of asking, only to find out they want you to help and be told you can't?

 

Like her or hate her, you have to build her up to the kids. Kids deserve to safely love both of their parents. They can be a product of divorce without being a battleground of the divorce.

 

This situation is far more severe than the run of the mill squabbling most situations are dealing with. I agree that we have had issues with my husband's ex wife and nothing is ever said to the kids. But there is no mental or physical issues happening with any party to need to elevate the issues.

 

Which makes reinforcing her role as a mother to them even more important.

Kids don't understand that mental illness is something that is inherent and can't be helped. Even at 15, all they see is actions and a baseline of it being "good" or "bad." Once they're older and understand that the actions were awful, but they were due to something equally awful from an internal switch that she has no choice in flipping...

 

Besides which, if she has a mental illness, care should be taken to avoid doing things that could aggravate her further. Even the most balanced mother would be truly upset to hear a family meeting was called over a hardship she was experiencing and a vote was taken to find out if they should help. Worse, that they voted "no."

 

If the worst ever happened and my husband and I split and I was having problems making ends meet (because I'll be honest, I would), I'd be really mad if this happened and would probably take him back to court.

 

I don't agree with lying to the kids either about things. So in your situation, I would have just told the kids there was a change in plans and they were going to stay there for the night. Telling them their mom was sick was a lie and one they could have easily found out.

 

She was ill, which was not a lie. It was the reason she said she wanted us to keep them an extra hour. So she won't be blindsided by kids asking if she was sick when she wasn't. But saying "plans changed" and then letting it at that... It wouldn't have floated. Kids are really smart and they internalize a lot. If we'd just marched into their room and said "plans changed, mom isn't coming, you're staying here tonight," there would have been tears, there would have been questions, and there would have been internalizing... "Does she not want to see us?" "She doesn't miss us?" "Why isn't she coming?" Even though the oldest is only in elementary school, he's already asking these questions when somebody isn't there when they should be or for something that's important to him. By saying that she's sick, they can sympathize as they know how hard it is to be sick, and they can do something to express their concern for their mom and disappointment from not hearing from her.

 

Even if she wasn't sick, a quick text after saying they were staying the night saying "the kids are really upset, we told them you were sick and couldn't come" and the problem is solved.

 

I get it, it is hard especially when dealing with these issues. We dealt with parental alienation and my husband had to seek an attorney specifically geared towards father's rights to finally get things to stop. Prior to that the kids where pushed into the middle of everything, privy to far more than they should have been, and used as weapons.

 

Most would see involving minor children in key decisions over if their mother is homeless or not as a case of attempted parental alienation.

[Poppygoodwill]

She sounds like a borderline personality.

 

Borderline (Emotionally Unstable) Personality Disorder

[anika99]

I think it was awful to leave this decision up to the kids. They said not to help her (which is a really odd thing, kids will usually want to protect their mother, even if she is terrible) but if she is mentally ill and something terrible happens to her, they will likely feel guilty for making a decision that should have never been put upon them in the first place.

[Redheaded Mistress]

That, and kids at that age can't predict what their relationship will be down the road.

 

My husband came from a family of divorce, he hated his father and said his mother was insane. He turned 18 and wanted a relationship with neither and moved away.

 

As he got older, he understood his mother dealt with their divorce was hard, and having to care for 3 kids alone with no child support and without ever having a job before (and now working 3 paid jobs)... It broke her for a time. After she got married again, had another child, she still has issues (as most people do) and tends to deal with stress poorly, but she's overall much better and he went from hating her and resenting how crazy she was to getting that she was the way she was by no fault of her own. Mental illness is a hell of a thing.

 

Because one hates their parents now doesn't mean he'll hate them later. He wouldn't have given her the time of day when he was 15-20. Now, he feels much differently. And he really resents how his father exploited that issue of hers and made it about him, or about how awful she was.

 

Now the picture he has isn't of a crazy mom and an a-hole insensitive Dad. It's of a mother who had issues and got through it to a moderately functional life where she's happy and moved on... And a father who still rants on about a divorce and the evilness of the woman he divorced 25 years ago and he utterly resents how he feels his father's conduct made it harder for him to see what was going on with his mother.

 

Not saying this is the OP's situation at all, just that the opinions kids hold of their parents change.

 

And if she truly is mentally ill, a lot of what's going on... It's still her fault because she's doing it, but it's not her fault in that what drives her to do it is something she can't control or easily moderate. She shouldn't be doing what she's doing, but the mental illness means what's happening isn't a conscious choice in the same way that it is for others and that stopgap that filters the behavior isn't there. Just like you can't blame a person in the wheelchair for being unable to take the stairs, you can't blame an expected reaction consistent with a mental illness on somebody.

[Downtown]

There has just been so much craziness on her end that it isn't safe for the kids and the courts have ordered only supervised visitations with her.

Amy, I agree with PoppyGoodWill that the instability, physical abuse, temper tantrums, and other childish behaviors you describe are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest you read my list of such red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs.

 

If most of those signs sound very familiar -- as I suspect they will -- I would suggest you consider participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com in the "Parenting with Someone Having BPD" message board. If you want a more detailed description of those BPD traits, please see my posts in Rebel's Thread. Take care, Amy.

[cocorico]

Amy I'm sorry this woman continues to be any kind of presence in your life. It is best to have no contact of any kind at all; no good can come of any contact with someone so damaged and so toxic. It is best to protect yourself, your BF and his kids by observing the RO very strictly.

 

If, one day, she is well enough to resume some kind of healthy contact with her kids, she can apply to the courts, but until then, it's best that you simply erase her existence from your lives.

 

At least, that is what my experience has shown.

[AmyBamy]

I disagree with this part. If he didn't say something and tell them their mom was losing her place they could be upset with him for not doing anything. While I can see, and wholeheartedly agree, that the kids should not be placed in the middle this is one where I would have a discussion.

 

This situation is far more severe than the run of the mill squabbling most situations are dealing with. I agree that we have had issues with my husband's ex wife and nothing is ever said to the kids. But there is no mental or physical issues happening with any party to need to elevate the issues.

 

My one suggestion, for this situation, is family counseling for the kids. This is hard having a parent with a mental illness and a professional will be able to help them navigate the waters better.

 

I don't agree with lying to the kids either about things. So in your situation, I would have just told the kids there was a change in plans and they were going to stay there for the night. Telling them their mom was sick was a lie and one they could have easily found out.

 

I get it, it is hard especially when dealing with these issues. We dealt with parental alienation and my husband had to seek an attorney specifically geared towards father's rights to finally get things to stop. Prior to that the kids where pushed into the middle of everything, privy to far more than they should have been, and used as weapons.

 

This is where he and I were with this too. He just didn't want them to blame him if she ended up homeless and so he wanted to bring it out in the open. Unfortunately for his kids they are all operating eons ahead of their age level in maturity due to all that they have had to go through thanks to their Mom. I say absolutely nothing about her, bad or good, to the kids ever. I have said to the youngest one that I know her mother loves her, which I believe is true. She was talking about her Mom and how upset she is with her and was saying that her Mom doesn't love anyone but herself, and I gently just said to her, "she is your mother and she loves you even if she can't always show it". And I left it at that. Otherwise, I am really leery of stepping in on any of that because it's not my place and I don't want to inadvertently do more damage even with good intentions. Not to mention, it is hard for me to hide my lack of respect for their mother and I'm aware of that, but I do not believe that she is mentally ill, just manipulative and selfish. So, I try to stay away from it if at all possible.

 

But he and I discussed this whole thing and he was just very worried that his children would blame him if he didn't offer to help because they know that he has contacts and the financial ability to do so. When they all said to just leave her to it he was relieved but didn't show them that, just said that if they wanted or needed to talk about it any further to let him know and he would do his best to do what is best for them. Even if that means helping their mom, he would do it - for them.

 

And try to remember, they have seen this dynamic going on for their entire lives. Their mother manipulating and playing victim and denying responsibility. They are unfortunately quite aware of it and have very little patience with it left. He didn't do that, I didn't do that, SHE did that.

[AmyBamy]

I appreciate the concern for his children from those who expressed it, but trust me, they are doing very well. The decision wasn't left to them. He simply told them that he would help her if they wanted him to. He can't guarantee that he could find her a place to live, but he wasn't going to even try unless it was important to his children that he do so.

 

As for them not wanting him to help her, they are just exhausted with her. They have had to deal with this type of behavior their entire lives and now that they have had a break from it for the first time ever they are very unwilling to get re-involved with it again. They are finally breathing and she has a lot of work to do if she ever wants to have anything that resembles a relationship with her children.

 

The youngest ones that still live at home are in counseling. We offered to pay for the oldest one too but they weren't interested in it right now. The youngest ones are having weekly sessions for now and are doing fantastic. Their grades at school are up, they are having fun with their friends and enjoying normal teenager things - sports, activities - and just doing really, really well. He is in counseling working on his own baggage and working on how to parent his children effectively during this huge transition. He ran the latest by his counselor and his counselor agreed that it was a good idea to ask his children what they wanted him to do. I think that people are trying to treat them like they are "normal" teenagers, and thankfully they can enjoy that somewhat, but deep down, they are not. They have not had a normal life, they have had a very toxic parent that has manipulated them as much as she does other adults. They are traumatized because of her treatment of them and unfortunately, are having to deal with some very adult issues and always have had to.

 

Hindsight is always so clear and my boyfriend is kicking himself now that he didn't leave her years earlier and take the kids out of that environment. There have been many a sessions with their therapist that he has tearfully apologized to them for this and they have been working on not only processing their anger at her, but their anger at him for not leaving sooner and not protecting them more. But like he said, who ever thinks you should have to protect children from their own mother?

 

I think we will be just fine. I have seen the progress in only a short time and he and I have always done fine in our interactions. I am excited about the future as it seems it will keep moving in a positive direction. Things have certainly worked out for the best of everyone involved. It's unfortunate that it had to happen the way it did, but sometimes, no matter how it happened, it was the best thing. Change and growth can sometimes be painful and messy.

 

It has been peaceful around here since I blocked her. I am going to have to fight my soft heart to not keep trying to help her and protect her as I have my own life to live and myself and my own family to take care of. I have to trust that she is an adult and can handle herself. And if she can't and something terrible happens, god forbid, I will not feel guilty because I have done all that I can and can't keep saving her from herself. I will be there for his children and him and just hope that at some point she realizes how to take care of herself.

[AmyBamy]

Amy, I agree with PoppyGoodWill that the instability, physical abuse, temper tantrums, and other childish behaviors you describe are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest you read my list of such red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs.

 

If most of those signs sound very familiar -- as I suspect they will -- I would suggest you consider participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com in the "Parenting with Someone Having BPD" message board. If you want a more detailed description of those BPD traits, please see my posts in Rebel's Thread. Take care, Amy.

 

I will read up on it. I just honestly believe that she chooses her behaviors because they have always worked, not because she is mentally ill. The only time she has tantrums is when she doesn't get her way. If things are going her way, she is able and willing to act normal.

[AmyBamy]

And, they are already divorced. It's not in process, it's finalized and signed, sealed, delivered and done. Has been for a while now. I guess she just hasn't accepted that she wasn't able to manipulate this situation the way that she wanted, but she wasn't and it happened and it's over now.

[cocorico]

I appreciate the concern for his children from those who expressed it, but trust me, they are doing very well. The decision wasn't left to them. He simply told them that he would help her if they wanted him to. He can't guarantee that he could find her a place to live, but he wasn't going to even try unless it was important to his children that he do so.

 

As for them not wanting him to help her, they are just exhausted with her. They have had to deal with this type of behavior their entire lives and now that they have had a break from it for the first time ever they are very unwilling to get re-involved with it again. They are finally breathing and she has a lot of work to do if she ever wants to have anything that resembles a relationship with her children.

 

The youngest ones that still live at home are in counseling. We offered to pay for the oldest one too but they weren't interested in it right now. The youngest ones are having weekly sessions for now and are doing fantastic. Their grades at school are up, they are having fun with their friends and enjoying normal teenager things - sports, activities - and just doing really, really well. He is in counseling working on his own baggage and working on how to parent his children effectively during this huge transition. He ran the latest by his counselor and his counselor agreed that it was a good idea to ask his children what they wanted him to do. I think that people are trying to treat them like they are "normal" teenagers, and thankfully they can enjoy that somewhat, but deep down, they are not. They have not had a normal life, they have had a very toxic parent that has manipulated them as much as she does other adults. They are traumatized because of her treatment of them and unfortunately, are having to deal with some very adult issues and always have had to.

 

Hindsight is always so clear and my boyfriend is kicking himself now that he didn't leave her years earlier and take the kids out of that environment. There have been many a sessions with their therapist that he has tearfully apologized to them for this and they have been working on not only processing their anger at her, but their anger at him for not leaving sooner and not protecting them more. But like he said, who ever thinks you should have to protect children from their own mother?

 

I think we will be just fine. I have seen the progress in only a short time and he and I have always done fine in our interactions. I am excited about the future as it seems it will keep moving in a positive direction. Things have certainly worked out for the best of everyone involved. It's unfortunate that it had to happen the way it did, but sometimes, no matter how it happened, it was the best thing. Change and growth can sometimes be painful and messy.

 

It has been peaceful around here since I blocked her. I am going to have to fight my soft heart to not keep trying to help her and protect her as I have my own life to live and myself and my own family to take care of. I have to trust that she is an adult and can handle herself. And if she can't and something terrible happens, god forbid, I will not feel guilty because I have done all that I can and can't keep saving her from herself. I will be there for his children and him and just hope that at some point she realizes how to take care of herself.

 

This sounds very similar to what happened with my H's kids after he dumped their toxic mother. It was like a huge weight lifted off their shoulders, and they quickly adapted to becoming "normal" teens, with huge improvements in their social, emotional, academic, sporting and cultural lives. They're well-functioning young adults now. I'm sure your BF's kids will be fine!

[Redheaded Mistress]

I appreciate the concern for his children from those who expressed it, but trust me, they are doing very well. The decision wasn't left to them. He simply told them that he would help her if they wanted him to. He can't guarantee that he could find her a place to live, but he wasn't going to even try unless it was important to his children that he do so.

 

But that is leaving the decision to them...

 

As for them not wanting him to help her, they are just exhausted with her. They have had to deal with this type of behavior their entire lives and now that they have had a break from it for the first time ever they are very unwilling to get re-involved with it again. They are finally breathing and she has a lot of work to do if she ever wants to have anything that resembles a relationship with her children.

 

Which is why it's doubly important to not involve them in what they're exhausted in dealing with already and have already a damaged relationship to contend with.

 

They are traumatized because of her treatment of them and unfortunately, are having to deal with some very adult issues and always have had to.

 

Again, that's why it's so important to not ask them to keep doing so. I'm not sure why your counselor would think that's a good idea... If there's a RO in place, one would think the counselor would at the least say "the law forbids you from contact so you can't help her."

 

Hindsight is always so clear and my boyfriend is kicking himself now that he didn't leave her years earlier and take the kids out of that environment. There have been many a sessions with their therapist that he has tearfully apologized to them for this and they have been working on not only processing their anger at her, but their anger at him for not leaving sooner and not protecting them more. But like he said, who ever thinks you should have to protect children from their own mother?

 

I think that having them make these decisions though... That's not really protection. That's further involving them in something you just said has impacted them negatively and no longer want to deal with.

 

It has been peaceful around here since I blocked her. I am going to have to fight my soft heart to not keep trying to help her and protect her as I have my own life to live and myself and my own family to take care of. I have to trust that she is an adult and can handle herself. And if she can't and something terrible happens, god forbid, I will not feel guilty because I have done all that I can and can't keep saving her from herself. I will be there for his children and him and just hope that at some point she realizes how to take care of herself.

 

At the risk of sharing the unpopular opinion, I don't think the reason you're so mired in this is a soft heart. You have no problems expressing your frustrations and exasperation with her and a soft heart would mean that in spite of her flaws you overlook them. While I think there's a degree of messiness you assume when you are in this relationship, I think more of it is you don't express boundaries with her because maybe you like to stay a little more involved than the situation dictates. I did the same thing after my husband left his wife... I'd entertain the nasty texts, the passive comments, try to figure out what she was doing, keeping her at arms length so that I'd be one of the first to feel the impacts of her behavior. I did so for a lot of reasons... Insecurity in the relationship and the transition, a feeling like this is a big chunk of his life and thus thinking if I was involved I was more involved with him or the relationship, a degree of spying and satisfaction in hearing her behavior was irritating my other half (and the false sense of security in that it meant there were no ties between them left... Without realizing that degree of entanglement and anger is still a tie), and I'll be honest, a degree of happiness in hearing that she failed at something or was struggling. She put me and her husband and her kids through such hell, I felt like I deserved a "win" by watching her score a "lose." Maybe even I liked the drama of it a little and thought us bonding over our irritation with her behavior would bring us closer.

 

I think that, especially since there's a RO in place, there's really no reason to give so much time and attention to what she's doing and certainly would be better on the kids to fully detach from it so they can move on too. A life without caring for, making decisions about, or hearing things that bring her down in their eyes will be worth far more than anything else, and part of that is compartmentalizing what she does from them and then taking steps to build her up a little. Building her up despite all she's done for you? Now that's a soft, forgiving heart.

 

Trust me, I get how hard it is. While I've alluded to it I don't really discuss just how insane and abusive my husband's ex wife was and is. And I admit, forgive and forget is something I really, really struggle with. My husband is so good at ignoring it, but I fall for her ridiculous behavior every time and my husband has to remind me at how it's not worth it, how toxic it is, and how badly it impacts us and the kids. I freely admit it's my struggle to sit next to this woman at the kids events, watching her make nice with my child, give my child gifts, talk to him, watch her talking to us like our relationship is perfectly normal while entirely ignoring that the night before she fell apart via text, f me, f him, f our child... Or that a few weeks before she told everybody I was insane and had gotten fat, or that we steal money from her... Or that when we were at our worst point, she attacked me, beat my husband, stole money, hit our car with her car, and did it all in front of the kids. Do I want to sit next to her at public events and talk to her like we're friends? No. And I don't want to talk up the woman who tries to dump the kids off on any warm body there is so she can do what she feels like doing. I resent explaining to my stepson that the reason mom can't go to his soccer event has nothing to do with him, that she's a good mom, and that she just couldn't come... As opposed to the truth that she just doesn't care about his extracurricular activities when it conflicts with her plans. I'm not even going to lie, I practically spit fire behind the smile when I drop them off and they give her big hugs and have totally forgiven how she's blatantly done them wrong because of what my husband and I have done to build her up to him.

 

The last night she dumped them on us because she didn't feel like going out and wanted us to drop them off and couldn't? I cried. I cried like a child. She threw them aside and I had to stuff my rage and indignation down to comfort them and make sure that their relationship with her was still protected. It sucked.

 

At the end of the day though if it makes the kids feel safe, secure, and keeps their vision of their mother at a good or better place, it's what you have to do.

[Downtown]

I just honestly believe that she chooses her behaviors because they have always worked, not because she is mentally ill.

Perhaps you are right, Amy. That is NOT what you are describing, however. Like everyone else on the planet, BPDers choose behaviors that "have always worked." Their problem, however, is that they have a very limited set of ego defenses from which to choose. Because their emotional development froze at age 3 or 4, they are stuck with having to rely on the few ego defenses available to young children. These include the ego defenses you are describing: temper tantrums, denial, black-white thinking, magical thinking, and projection.

 

The only time she has tantrums is when she doesn't get her way. If things are going her way, she is able and willing to act normal.

Likewise, the vast majority of BPDers "act normal" most of the time, especially when they are getting their way. Just like young children, they behave well when they want to and throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way.

 

I feel really sorry for her inability to control herself.

Significantly, this "inability to control herself" is THE HALLMARK of BPD. Indeed, it is such a central feature of BPD that a large share of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for over 20 years to change the name of this disorder to "Emotional Regulation Disorder." BPDers have great difficulty with controlling their own emotions because they lack the emotional skills the rest of us learned in early childhood.

 

...her childish behavior....

If she has strong BPD traits, her problem is NOT being evil, having low morals, or being crazy. BPDers generally are NONE of those things. A BPDer's problem is having the emotional development of a four year old. Hence, "her childish behavior" is exactly what you would expect to see.

 

She is very erratic and histrionic so it's hard to tell....she has a tendency to throw tantrums and be really overly dramatic about a lot of things....her children have already been mortified many times by her outbursts and behaviors.

All these behaviors are warning signs for BPD. Whether she has "full-blown BPD" is a determination that only a professional can make. You nonetheless should be capable of spotting all the warning signs if you take a little time to learn what to look for. There is nothing subtle about red flags such as temper tantrums, always being "The Victim," and verbal abuse.

[Redheaded Mistress]

If she has strong BPD traits, her problem is NOT being evil, having low morals, or being crazy. BPDers generally are NONE of those things. A BPDer's problem is having the emotional development of a four year old. Hence, "her childish behavior" is exactly what you would expect to see.

 

Do we know for sure she has BPD?

 

Also, as somebody who deals with Bipolar II Disorder, I can tell you with certainty that the problem a person with Bipolar Disorder isn't that they have "the emotional development of a four year old." Bipolar Disorder is complicated and there are different degrees of Bipolar Disorder. What a person with Bipolar I Disorder deals with is very different than what a person with Bipolar II Disorder deals with... So to say that being Bipolar means that you are emotionally immature... Well, that's not really what it means.

 

If anybody has questions, I know I can answer a little with first-hand knowledge what being Bipolar Disorder does to you... But to say it's just you act like a child and have the emotions of a child... Well... No.

[anika99]

Do we know for sure she has BPD?

 

Also, as somebody who deals with Bipolar II Disorder, I can tell you with certainty that the problem a person with Bipolar Disorder isn't that they have "the emotional development of a four year old." Bipolar Disorder is complicated and there are different degrees of Bipolar Disorder. What a person with Bipolar I Disorder deals with is very different than what a person with Bipolar II Disorder deals with... So to say that being Bipolar means that you are emotionally immature... Well, that's not really what it means.

 

If anybody has questions, I know I can answer a little with first-hand knowledge what being Bipolar Disorder does to you... But to say it's just you act like a child and have the emotions of a child... Well... No.

 

 

Downtown isn't talking about Bipolar Disorder, she's talking about Borderline Personality Disorder and people with Borderline Personality Disorder are emotionally immature. They throw temper tantrums or have big pouts whenever the smallest upset happens to them. Even when they are happy, they show it by being overly exuberant, thankful and affectionate, like a child, which is actually quite charming and part of what gets people hooked on them.

[anika99]

I will read up on it. I just honestly believe that she chooses her behaviors because they have always worked, not because she is mentally ill. The only time she has tantrums is when she doesn't get her way. If things are going her way, she is able and willing to act normal.

 

 

I'm guessing you don't have any kids of your own Amy. As a mother myself I really can't believe that any mother would deliberately choose a behavior that would cost her the love of her children. No mom wants to be turned away by her own children. This woman is mentally ill and it is sad that she is not getting the help she needs. Mental illnesses are varied and all have different symptoms. One doesn't have to be talking to the voices in their head or slashing their wrists in order to be mentally ill. The BW in your situation is losing her kids, her family, her life has fallen apart and you think she chooses that?

[Redheaded Mistress]

Ah, gotcha.

[Got it]

I'm guessing you don't have any kids of your own Amy. As a mother myself I really can't believe that any mother would deliberately choose a behavior that would cost her the love of her children. No mom wants to be turned away by her own children. This woman is mentally ill and it is sad that she is not getting the help she needs. Mental illnesses are varied and all have different symptoms. One doesn't have to be talking to the voices in their head or slashing their wrists in order to be mentally ill. The BW in your situation is losing her kids, her family, her life has fallen apart and you think she chooses that?

 

I am not sure if this is true. I think there are many people who are parents but do not have a maternal/paternal component that allow them to look beyond their self interest. I am not saying that this is the case here but do now that not everyone who has kids actually are good parents or even at a level where they wouldn't choose actions that would be counterproductive for their kids.

 

She is responsible for her actions as is everyone else. Allowing her leniency on her actions would allow every WS to potentially waive responsibility for their affair/actions because of a mental concern. While there may be many layers to a situations, addictions are one where I think the affair is really the secondary component, this does not mean they aren't responsible and, yes, something they choose.

 

So yes, I would say the BS in this situation is choosing her actions regardless of what they are.

[Got it]

But that is leaving the decision to them...

 

 

 

Which is why it's doubly important to not involve them in what they're exhausted in dealing with already and have already a damaged relationship to contend with.

 

 

 

Again, that's why it's so important to not ask them to keep doing so. I'm not sure why your counselor would think that's a good idea... If there's a RO in place, one would think the counselor would at the least say "the law forbids you from contact so you can't help her."

 

 

 

I think that having them make these decisions though... That's not really protection. That's further involving them in something you just said has impacted them negatively and no longer want to deal with.

 

 

 

At the risk of sharing the unpopular opinion, I don't think the reason you're so mired in this is a soft heart. You have no problems expressing your frustrations and exasperation with her and a soft heart would mean that in spite of her flaws you overlook them. While I think there's a degree of messiness you assume when you are in this relationship, I think more of it is you don't express boundaries with her because maybe you like to stay a little more involved than the situation dictates. I did the same thing after my husband left his wife... I'd entertain the nasty texts, the passive comments, try to figure out what she was doing, keeping her at arms length so that I'd be one of the first to feel the impacts of her behavior. I did so for a lot of reasons... Insecurity in the relationship and the transition, a feeling like this is a big chunk of his life and thus thinking if I was involved I was more involved with him or the relationship, a degree of spying and satisfaction in hearing her behavior was irritating my other half (and the false sense of security in that it meant there were no ties between them left... Without realizing that degree of entanglement and anger is still a tie), and I'll be honest, a degree of happiness in hearing that she failed at something or was struggling. She put me and her husband and her kids through such hell, I felt like I deserved a "win" by watching her score a "lose." Maybe even I liked the drama of it a little and thought us bonding over our irritation with her behavior would bring us closer.

 

I think that, especially since there's a RO in place, there's really no reason to give so much time and attention to what she's doing and certainly would be better on the kids to fully detach from it so they can move on too. A life without caring for, making decisions about, or hearing things that bring her down in their eyes will be worth far more than anything else, and part of that is compartmentalizing what she does from them and then taking steps to build her up a little. Building her up despite all she's done for you? Now that's a soft, forgiving heart.

 

Trust me, I get how hard it is. While I've alluded to it I don't really discuss just how insane and abusive my husband's ex wife was and is. And I admit, forgive and forget is something I really, really struggle with. My husband is so good at ignoring it, but I fall for her ridiculous behavior every time and my husband has to remind me at how it's not worth it, how toxic it is, and how badly it impacts us and the kids. I freely admit it's my struggle to sit next to this woman at the kids events, watching her make nice with my child, give my child gifts, talk to him, watch her talking to us like our relationship is perfectly normal while entirely ignoring that the night before she fell apart via text, f me, f him, f our child... Or that a few weeks before she told everybody I was insane and had gotten fat, or that we steal money from her... Or that when we were at our worst point, she attacked me, beat my husband, stole money, hit our car with her car, and did it all in front of the kids. Do I want to sit next to her at public events and talk to her like we're friends? No. And I don't want to talk up the woman who tries to dump the kids off on any warm body there is so she can do what she feels like doing. I resent explaining to my stepson that the reason mom can't go to his soccer event has nothing to do with him, that she's a good mom, and that she just couldn't come... As opposed to the truth that she just doesn't care about his extracurricular activities when it conflicts with her plans. I'm not even going to lie, I practically spit fire behind the smile when I drop them off and they give her big hugs and have totally forgiven how she's blatantly done them wrong because of what my husband and I have done to build her up to him.

 

The last night she dumped them on us because she didn't feel like going out and wanted us to drop them off and couldn't? I cried. I cried like a child. She threw them aside and I had to stuff my rage and indignation down to comfort them and make sure that their relationship with her was still protected. It sucked.

 

At the end of the day though if it makes the kids feel safe, secure, and keeps their vision of their mother at a good or better place, it's what you have to do.

 

Why do you have so much involvement with her if you don't want to? Why on earth do you choose to sit next to her? Don't you think that you are "allowing" the behavior because you are making nice when she isn't acting crazy?

 

I completely disagree that it is my role to "make the kids keep their vision of their mother at a good or better place" that involves lying, hiding, etc. Their view of their mother is between them and their mother just like their view of their father is about their relationship, etc. Now maybe the difference is I am dealing with teens and older and maybe you have younger but I can tell you I do not lie to the kids. My role is to not play parent to them. I am an adult in their lives that enforces the rules that mom and dad have put into place and if I have to choose I follow what their father says and/or court documents. I never badmouth their mother or father to them but I am not going to cover something up either. I am honest with them, age appropriate answers, and have tried to develop a relationship with them that I will be honest whenever they ask me a question. This includes talking high level about the affair, apologizing for it and the hurt it caused others, and the bad decisions tied to it.

 

Even when they get mad at their oldest sibling I will ask questions about whatever they are grumbling about, ask them how they feel, but I do not make up excuses or pass judgement.

 

And for his ex, I do not sit with her at events, we sit separate. We are not one big happy family and unless all parties actually act like such 24/7 then there is no reason to create a false impression. This does not mean we fight, carry on, etc. But we are very peacefully separate. I am respectful to her with my presence and do not force it upon her in unnecessary situations.

 

My husband and I have battled her for years over things but what we have committed to is controlling our actions to be as compassionate and mature as possible. I know for myself I try and put myself in her shoes and give her the benefit of the doubt when advising my husband. He has called me the forever optimist with things as I do hope one day to have a more integrated relationship. But I completely understand and respect her opposition to that.

 

I respect your decision to handle your situation however you and your husband see fit but it doesn't necessarily apply or work in all other situations.

[evanescentworld]

I'm sorry, a lot of the posters here are right.

What on earth are you doing entertaining any contact from her at all?

First of all, there is a legal restraining order on her, so in effect, your complacency is permitting her to violate it, which is extremely reckless and foolish.

 

Secondly, as stated, she isn't YOUR problem - enough of that said here by others, so I need not elaborate.

 

Thirdly - you makes your bed and you lies in it. If she was stupid, reckless and idiotic enough to cause damage to where she was staying, then she reaps the consequences of her actions.

Action - Vandalism

Result - Eviction.

There's her Karma right there.

 

Fourthly, in my limited view and personal opinion, it's extremely disloyal to your partner to even give her the time of day, behind his back. You know his choices and opinion on the matter. The fact that you're a 'soft touch' is what she's banking on. It's called "taking full advantage of your Good Nature" and puts you at odds with him, effectively pitting you against one another.

 

That's a bad thing, in anyone's book....

[Redheaded Mistress]

Why do you have so much involvement with her if you don't want to? Why on earth do you choose to sit next to her? Don't you think that you are "allowing" the behavior because you are making nice when she isn't acting crazy?

 

Because when you marry a man who has children with somebody else, a man who you also have a child with and who has a relationship with the children he had with his ex wife, you have to make concessions. You can't act like you hate each other. You can fight like cats privately, but as far as the kids are concerned, they need to see their life is spread out between two joint households, not Mom's house vs. Dad's house.

 

If we show up to these events and sit far away from her, now the kids have to choose... Do we go see Mom? Do we go see Dad? When they have a victory, do they pick Mom's side of the bleachers to go celebrate first or do they pick Dad's? We perpetuate instability. By sitting near each other, our child can visit their sibling, and whomever we're there to watch isn't forced to pick Mom over Dad. As far as they know, we're the same team.

 

I completely disagree that it is my role to "make the kids keep their vision of their mother at a good or better place" that involves lying, hiding, etc. Their view of their mother is between them and their mother just like their view of their father is about their relationship, etc. Now maybe the difference is I am dealing with teens and older and maybe you have younger but I can tell you I do not lie to the kids. My role is to not play parent to them. I am an adult in their lives that enforces the rules that mom and dad have put into place and if I have to choose I follow what their father says and/or court documents. I never badmouth their mother or father to them but I am not going to cover something up either. I am honest with them, age appropriate answers, and have tried to develop a relationship with them that I will be honest whenever they ask me a question. This includes talking high level about the affair, apologizing for it and the hurt it caused others, and the bad decisions tied to it.

 

But in cultivating that honesty, you've asked them to make adult decisions about their mother that put her in a bad light. If you want peace for them and with her, you just can't do that. You don't have to like her, but you should not be another nail in the coffin of their relationship.

 

And for his ex, I do not sit with her at events, we sit separate. We are not one big happy family and unless all parties actually act like such 24/7 then there is no reason to create a false impression. This does not mean we fight, carry on, etc. But we are very peacefully separate. I am respectful to her with my presence and do not force it upon her in unnecessary situations.

 

Well, then you've chosen a different route. While her behavior may mean it's not safe for you guys to sit together. That said, you don't need to like each other 24/7 in order to sit near each other (with the RO in place, you shouldn't be anyway). But making those concessions where the kids don't have to reaffirm their tie with one parent over the other, choose sides, or otherwise have to be involved in your disputes may go a long way into helping them move on but also helping her calm down.

 

At some point, you get tired of the battles and you just want a functional drama-free life. If that means sitting next to somebody at an event, it's a small trade off.

 

My husband and I have battled her for years over things but what we have committed to is controlling our actions to be as compassionate and mature as possible. I know for myself I try and put myself in her shoes and give her the benefit of the doubt when advising my husband. He has called me the forever optimist with things as I do hope one day to have a more integrated relationship. But I completely understand and respect her opposition to that.

 

I respect your decision to handle your situation however you and your husband see fit but it doesn't necessarily apply or work in all other situations.

 

Compassion and mature, however, means extending the same to her. Would you appreciate if you and your husband (I thought he was your boyfriend?) were having problems and his ex sat the children down to weigh out what they want to do about it? I doubt it. You'd see it as interjecting and trying to get the kids to choose sides. It's reasonable to think she'd see it the same way.

 

If you'd like an integrated relationship, somebody has to take the first step and putting the adult arguments aside to build up the adults in the kids lives. Since there's a RO in effect, you guys can't be together at the same events or spend time together in that way, but that just means that working to help the kids understand how their mother feels isn't necessarily invalid, just the way she responds to it is... And some of that response may be beyond her control... The sooner she'll see that it's not you and your husband vs. her with the kids in the middle, but that everybody wants what's best for the kids and what's best for them isn't maligning one, the other, or both of the parents.

 

While you very clearly don't like her, the best way to end these arguments is to not make it quite so well known just how much you dislike each other in the presence of the kids. To listen to the kids fairly and honestly, but to maybe be an advocate for their best interests which includes not thinking the worst of their mother.

 

Trust me, I'm not a fan of their mother at all and I don't think she's a good person. It's tough to sit there and help the kids understand in a way that doesn't undermine their relationship why their mother does what she does. But in the end, to have happy kids who don't feel like their life is full of tension and moderating adult animosity, it goes a long way to keeping the peace.

[Got it]

Because when you marry a man who has children with somebody else, a man who you also have a child with and who has a relationship with the children he had with his ex wife, you have to make concessions. You can't act like you hate each other. You can fight like cats privately, but as far as the kids are concerned, they need to see their life is spread out between two joint households, not Mom's house vs. Dad's house.

 

If we show up to these events and sit far away from her, now the kids have to choose... Do we go see Mom? Do we go see Dad? When they have a victory, do they pick Mom's side of the bleachers to go celebrate first or do they pick Dad's? We perpetuate instability. By sitting near each other, our child can visit their sibling, and whomever we're there to watch isn't forced to pick Mom over Dad. As far as they know, we're the same team.

 

 

 

But in cultivating that honesty, you've asked them to make adult decisions about their mother that put her in a bad light. If you want peace for them and with her, you just can't do that. You don't have to like her, but you should not be another nail in the coffin of their relationship.

 

 

 

Well, then you've chosen a different route. While her behavior may mean it's not safe for you guys to sit together. That said, you don't need to like each other 24/7 in order to sit near each other (with the RO in place, you shouldn't be anyway). But making those concessions where the kids don't have to reaffirm their tie with one parent over the other, choose sides, or otherwise have to be involved in your disputes may go a long way into helping them move on but also helping her calm down.

 

At some point, you get tired of the battles and you just want a functional drama-free life. If that means sitting next to somebody at an event, it's a small trade off.

 

 

 

Compassion and mature, however, means extending the same to her. Would you appreciate if you and your husband (I thought he was your boyfriend?) were having problems and his ex sat the children down to weigh out what they want to do about it? I doubt it. You'd see it as interjecting and trying to get the kids to choose sides. It's reasonable to think she'd see it the same way.

 

If you'd like an integrated relationship, somebody has to take the first step and putting the adult arguments aside to build up the adults in the kids lives. Since there's a RO in effect, you guys can't be together at the same events or spend time together in that way, but that just means that working to help the kids understand how their mother feels isn't necessarily invalid, just the way she responds to it is... And some of that response may be beyond her control... The sooner she'll see that it's not you and your husband vs. her with the kids in the middle, but that everybody wants what's best for the kids and what's best for them isn't maligning one, the other, or both of the parents.

 

While you very clearly don't like her, the best way to end these arguments is to not make it quite so well known just how much you dislike each other in the presence of the kids. To listen to the kids fairly and honestly, but to maybe be an advocate for their best interests which includes not thinking the worst of their mother.

 

Trust me, I'm not a fan of their mother at all and I don't think she's a good person. It's tough to sit there and help the kids understand in a way that doesn't undermine their relationship why their mother does what she does. But in the end, to have happy kids who don't feel like their life is full of tension and moderating adult animosity, it goes a long way to keeping the peace.

 

RM - I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I do not have a RO nor is he my boyfriend. We are married. But either way I do not think giving them the truth does them a disservice. That is one thing I have learned with the affair and my reading on different boards. You do not go wrong by giving the truth. And trust me, I know all about concessions. I agree and I make them. But concessions and undermining healthy boundaries are world's apart.

 

There are many in divorce situations that do not sit near each other. In fact that is pretty much the common message on Infidelity boards from the BS side. That divorce means separate. Doesn't mean hostile but it does mean separate.

 

We do not act like we hate each other, or I don't act like I hate her. I can only control my actions. I do not engage with her. It is not my place so there is no fighting. That is between her and my husband.

 

But that also doesn't mean I lie or paint a false picture. The kids are well aware of the affair and their mother's feelings on it. To insinuate myself any closer to her would be disingenuous and against her desires as well.

 

In regards to her asking the kids to weigh in our things with us. She did in the past and now it really doesn't come up. Things are very separated now for everyone's piece of now. Intermingling does not work in all situations and I have ZERO desire for drama which is what intermingling will do.

 

To push for more involvement would enforce more drama like you are dealing with. Why would I want that? Why shouldn't I have boundaries as well that my life can be peaceful. Should it be more of a united team? Sure, that would be lovely! But that isn't reality. And so the kids have to deal with the reality. If the ex wife in our situation wants to move things forward we are happy to but my husband has been slapped enough times to be "twitchy" about taking any olive branches right now. My ideal would be a very integrated situation as I would love to share lives far more. But that would cause her more stress, grief, and well, just not close to reality. So we don't. She is still healing and I respect her stance and her feelings on it. I also respect our boundaries and my husband's feelings and we have found separate to be the best for all parties involved.

 

Drama free is the best part and that is where we are at.

[goodyblue]

RM - I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I do not have a RO nor is he my boyfriend. We are married. But either way I do not think giving them the truth does them a disservice. That is one thing I have learned with the affair and my reading on different boards. You do not go wrong by giving the truth. And trust me, I know all about concessions. I agree and I make them. But concessions and undermining healthy boundaries are world's apart.

 

There are many in divorce situations that do not sit near each other. In fact that is pretty much the common message on Infidelity boards from the BS side. That divorce means separate. Doesn't mean hostile but it does mean separate.

 

We do not act like we hate each other, or I don't act like I hate her. I can only control my actions. I do not engage with her. It is not my place so there is no fighting. That is between her and my husband.

 

But that also doesn't mean I lie or paint a false picture. The kids are well aware of the affair and their mother's feelings on it. To insinuate myself any closer to her would be disingenuous and against her desires as well.

 

In regards to her asking the kids to weigh in our things with us. She did in the past and now it really doesn't come up. Things are very separated now for everyone's piece of now. Intermingling does not work in all situations and I have ZERO desire for drama which is what intermingling will do.

 

To push for more involvement would enforce more drama like you are dealing with. Why would I want that? Why shouldn't I have boundaries as well that my life can be peaceful. Should it be more of a united team? Sure, that would be lovely! But that isn't reality. And so the kids have to deal with the reality. If the ex wife in our situation wants to move things forward we are happy to but my husband has been slapped enough times to be "twitchy" about taking any olive branches right now. My ideal would be a very integrated situation as I would love to share lives far more. But that would cause her more stress, grief, and well, just not close to reality. So we don't. She is still healing and I respect her stance and her feelings on it. I also respect our boundaries and my husband's feelings and we have found separate to be the best for all parties involved.

 

Drama free is the best part and that is where we are at.

 

I am extremely jealous of the drama free life you have going on. Things get a little better every day but my guys ex still does some messed up stuff to try and hurt us/him. I definitely keep my distance and would do whatever it took to not have a run in with her. Hopefully someday soon she will heal and move on too.