Still sucks 2 years out

[ForeverTainted]

My wife's cheating was decades ago as well but it wasn't hidden and I was just plain scared to end my marriage. I was afraid to lose my son and afraid to be alone. I was afraid ti get back into dating and risk all that rejection. But whenever I tell my story there are folks who post about how strong I was to stay and raise my family. Bulls#it. Nothing strong about it at all.

 

The fact is that your wife's cheating and lying violate your core belief's. Her caviar attitude insults your soul. Know this: no amount of remorse from her is going to help you heal. Every day you stay with her twists the knife deeper because you know you are compromising your moral belief's. If you keep trying to make your marriage work i'll tell you that the way this ends is you remaining unhappily married until death do you part. It doesn't get easier to leave with time, and time is ticking. End your marriage now start healing.

 

 

I am really glad my husband has enough of his own identity that he doesn't feel me throwing my morals out the window for a few weeks means he threw his out by forgiving me. But OP this poster has a point, sometimes we need to let go because being miserable like this poster has been with pretending to reconcile is not living life in a way I think most people want. Do you think you will be like him? Holding onto self hatred and a grudge towards his wife? Never accepting the past is the past and the present and future are what you make them? I don't think his story is a success story. I think it is a sign that some people simply do not want to let go and move on.

 

Because if you do you will in time. But you need to make steps in that direction. But if your sense of self entitlement and need to have an untainted past with your spouse are set in stone and you know that your capacity to forgive is 0 then you will not be happy.

[katielee]

But if your sense of self entitlement and need to have an untainted past with your spouse are set in stone and you know that your capacity to forgive is 0 then you will not be happy.

 

Really? People who don't forgive affairs are self-entitled and have no right to an untainted past? He absolutely had a right to divorce over this or at the very least, be reasonably pissed!

[tough love]

Because if you do you will in time. But you need to make steps in that direction. But if your sense of self entitlement and need to have an untainted past with your spouse are set in stone and you know that your capacity to forgive is 0 then you will not be happy.

 

I get that I need to keep working toward forgiveness and getting past, focusing on the good things we have. I had been making progress until the anniversaries hit and I back slid. But REALLY, I have a sense of self-entitlement?!?!?! So are you saying she had no sense of entitlement? Or it's fine that she was self-entitled at my expense? I really don't get this comment?

 

Sorry, I value the feedback I have received even if doesn't seem like I do. I know I need to move past this to be happy, even if I had chosen not to stay. But this comment baffles me. I don't expect perfection and have many of my own faults. But is expecting fidelity and especially honesty too much to ask for, unreasonable or feeling entitled? I didn't lie, cheat or mistreat her in any way prior to this coming out. And I say prior to this coming out because I have not reacted well to finding out she cheated and lied our entire time together about many things and in the heat of the moment we have both said things we regret saying and I am not proud of how I have reacted and am dealing with this. If anyone felt self entitled, I would think she did when she withheld pertinent info, decided she had the right to ask me about my past and get honest answers from me, and she decided she should be able to make an informed life decision while I didn't.

 

I think I can get past this, but being told I am wrong to feel the way I do or being called self-entitled sure doesn't help me get past it and honestly ticks me off. I ALWAYS did little things to try and show her I loved her! let her know I appreciated her and let her know she was special. I told her these things, got her flowers randomly, picked flowers for her, bought her small gifts or jewelry and not just on special occasions and other little things that weren't a big deal but done because she was (and still is the love of my life). But none of this changed what I consider a lack of respect for me and what I wanted for MY life. It didn't stop her from cheating and lying throughout our marriage. What else could I have done? she says I didn't ALWAYS say I would want to know the truth. What was the magic number of times I would have had to say it to make a difference? How is any of what I self-entitled?

 

Again, forevertainted, I don't disagree that I need to move past this and I do think I can get there and felt closer to that until the DDay anniversary. I just take exception with being told I am the one who is self-entitled. She knew how I would feel about being played for a fool in a situation like this. I said being lied to would be worse than actually being cheated on and I would rather know because it would be easier to forgive being cheated on than being lied to and played for a fool. It still didn't matter. What else could I have done differently? I have even asked if it was something I did to contribute to the ONS and other instance of cheating and what I did or said that made her think lying was better than being honest. She says it wasn't anything I did. I was actually hoping she would say it was something I did to make her do these things so I could at least say to myself that I caused her to do these things and I deserved it.

Edited August 3, 2014 by tough love

[AlwaysGrowing]

Forever tainted

 

Forgiveness has nothing to do with staying with a relationship (regardless of who it is with ie: parents, friends).

 

One can forgive and still decide to terminate/limit the relationship.

 

It has to do with oneself.

 

Affairs end relationships.....that is what they do.

 

For some, they can work through it with the offender if certain critical steps are taken by the offender. If an offender fails or is late in offering those steps....the usual outcome is distrust so deep that it can NOT be overcome. Rightly so.

 

Our first loyalty should always be to ourselves. If we fail it erodes our sense of self.

 

Expecting fidelity, honesty and loyalty from our partners is not being self entitled. It is what true intimacy is built on.

Edited August 3, 2014 by AlwaysGrowing

[revelations]

Tough Love I read your post where you said

I get that I need to keep working toward forgiveness and getting past, focusing on the good things we have. I had been making progress until the anniversaries hit and I back slid. But REALLY, I have a sense of self-entitlement?!?!?! So are you saying she had no sense of entitlement? Or it's fine that she was self-entitled at my expense? I really don't get this comment?

The truth is that a lot of WW feel that their BH is acting like they are self-entitled when they ask for certain things such as being faithful or being honest with their BH. I actually see this in a lot of women today. You would be surprised at how many women I have seen treat men as some sort of pet they found. The truth is that a lot of women do not feel that a man is her equal. Keeping a secret such as a ONS is justified in their mind by "men can't handle the truth" and "well he does not need to know about this". I actually had a woman I was dating a couple years ago tell me "I don't understand why men don't want to get married, they are just too tight with their wallets". I retorted with "Dear, men my age are trying to save for retirement. They most likely have already been through a divorce and knows how much it cost them. They stay clear of marriage because they do not have the time to recover from a divorce and still retire." My ex then replied with "Well men are just selfish". In her mind she was entitled to a husband and entitled to his income and retirement and she did not care at all if that man was able to support himself should she divorce. Yes women today are very scary and they have the backing of the government to take what you have earned.

 

Okay yes it may seem like I am coming down on women or a misogynist because I disagree with women. I don't hate women at all, in fact I know some very good women who are my friends. However any woman that is honest will tell you that marriage is a raw deal for men. If you read all the postings on my rant thread you will see some women on their actually getting upset with me because I choose not to date or get married. So what I am posting has nothing to do with hating women, truthfully most women I am just indifferent to. All I post is simple observations I have made my own experiences. I have not only read about, but seen my friends go through similar problems like yours tough love with their wives. The major thing I have learn through the years about dealing with and trusting women is "don't do it". I say this because until they actually view us as human and acknowledge men as equals, men will get the short end of the stick.

 

If you look at my signature you will see

Forgiving does not require me to stay with a wayward spouse.

that is because it is true. When you forgive someone it is not up to you, nor do you have to prove it in some fashion. Like I have said before I can understand why you are so hurt by your wife's ONS and why you don't want to leave. Let's face it, they can and will use your own children against you in a divorce. Yes I mean your wife will use your kids against you, the lawyers, and the judge will do this also. Staying put for down until your kids are grown and on their own is a wise move if you can handle it. However don't neglect yourself, plan things out for when your kids do leave the home. Save up some money and take some trips without the WW. Go get laid (yes I know you said you don't want to cheat) and I say this because your whole marriage is a lie and you were tricked into it. The way I see it you do not owe your WW a damn thing and that includes being loyal to her. After all she has already proven that she is not only disloyal to you, she has also proven that she has little respect for you if any at all.

 

Oh and let me reassure you that being single is not that bad. Being single is not a problem that needs to be solved. I have actually been enjoying being single. I don't get bitched at all the time, I watch what I want to watch on TV, all kinds of things are better for me. The truth is for me the major relief is no longer worrying if she is cheating or not or what she has lied to me about. Yes every time a man goes his own way and stays out of relationships with women a feminist sprouts a new whisker. They have lost another man that they can no longer enslave and rob him of his wealth. My solution may not be the best for you tough love, after all I did not have kids with my xWW. Just know that their are people out there that understand how you feel and why this is still a problem 2yrs out. You are not being crazy. You are not acting self-entitled. You are not being unreasonable at all. In fact the only people that will say that your acting in such a manner are people that have no respect for their spouse. You hurt right now because you love your wife and she betrayed you. To rub salt into the wound your wife seems to show no shame for her actions nor empathy for your pain. Hell confess to your wife that you banged her best friend or sister 20 some odd years ago and see what her reaction would be. I'll bet you any amount of money that this would be a big deal to her. Where she expects you to just get over it because it was so long ago, it will be different in her case. The reason why it is different is because she is the one getting hurt and that matters. You (or any man) getting hurt is not a big deal. If you want proof of that, you can simply just watch TV. Take note on the shows that portray men as fools and idiots with out the help of their amazingly smart wife. Look at how often a man get's hit in the nuts and we all laugh. Look up a video clip of a new channel doing a study on men being abused by women. They actually staged a couple fighting in the park. When the boyfriend got physical bystanders broke it up. Later they had the girlfriend hitting her boyfriend. Not only did no one step in, some women were taking joy from it. One of the people walking by was an off duty cop that ignored the situation.

 

Sorry I went kind of off topic Tough Love. Truthfully I just want to help you and I wish you the best. You may want to do a search on Men Going Their Own Way or just Going Your Own Way. Just don't give up on yourself, remember this is not something you have done, it was done to you. Make sure that your kids needs come first and yours. Make sure your wants and likewise your kids wants come first. After all of that then think of your wife's needs and wants if you elect to do so. I say all of this because I have seen too many women destroy good men. The funny part of it is, that when they are done and go looking for the next victim that all say the same thing. "Where have all the good men gone".

[oldshirt]

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Yes every time a man goes his own way and stays out of relationships with women a feminist sprouts a new whisker.

 

 

 

 

 

That is one of the funniest one-liners I have seen in a long time!!

[drifter777]

I am really glad my husband has enough of his own identity that he doesn't feel me throwing my morals out the window for a few weeks means he threw his out by forgiving me. But OP this poster has a point, sometimes we need to let go because being miserable like this poster has been with pretending to reconcile is not living life in a way I think most people want. Do you think you will be like him? Holding onto self hatred and a grudge towards his wife? Never accepting the past is the past and the present and future are what you make them? I don't think his story is a success story. I think it is a sign that some people simply do not want to let go and move on.

 

Because if you do you will in time. But you need to make steps in that direction. But if your sense of self entitlement and need to have an untainted past with your spouse are set in stone and you know that your capacity to forgive is 0 then you will not be happy.

Much of what you post here is true - and even though you mean it as an insult you are just describing most men. Yes, I have a male ego. Yes, I have strong moral character that has served me well. I don't cheat on my wife or my taxes. I believe screwing another man behind your husbands back is a horrible betrayal that most men will never forgive. I don't expect you to understand since you are a woman - and a WW at that. But just because you don't understand doesn't mean its not true. Many BH's try and fail to forgive their WW's but choose to stay out of fear and/or misguided loyalty to family. These men are throwing away their lives and they should be aware of this before they decide to even try to reconcile. I will continue to advocate that a BH divorce his WW and begin his personal healing ASAP. The WW chose her path when she had sex with OM. If BH stays with her he simply validates her cake-eatimg.

Edited August 3, 2014 by drifter777
PS: I'll assume your self entitlement shot was just a poor choice of words.

[compulsivedancer]

Tough love, maybe I'm reading this the wrong way, but I think forevertainted is getting in a dig at drifter, not you. While drifter is often a very helpful poster, the fact that he can't forgive his wife after 20 years, though he has known the whole 20 years, often rubs people the wrong way.

[ForeverTainted]

Really? People who don't forgive affairs are self-entitled and have no right to an untainted past? He absolutely had a right to divorce over this or at the very least, be reasonably pissed!

 

Yes it is. There really is no way better to put it and self entitlement is usuall used in a negative way. For some people they are able to give up the perfect past but for others that is not something they want. We all have entitlements and expectations that are at different levels. And we are ENTITLED TO THAT AND OUR OWN OPINION. I'll never agree with the misoginist such as revelations that only see the men getting the raw deals and ignore the countless stories of cheating men while the wife works and does all the work around the house or the guys who never pay a dine of child support, ect. Poor behaviour is a human thing and using gender as an excuse is a copout.

 

 

Entitlement is expecting to be treated a certain way and hetting upset when we are not. And that is good at times. Past entitlement is not letting something go of what we cannot change. Dwelling on things gone by and mourning what could have been. Past entitlement usually doesn't make us happy.

 

Op, CD was right I was talking about drifter. I don't know if you are a past dweller (we will say this because people hate the word entitled). You did deserve better than being cheated on but unfortunatly we only control our own actions. You were cheated on and you are entitled to be angry and hold onto that forever. That is the thing about free will. But letting go of that entitlement whether you can have a good marriage with your current wife or not will help with bitterness. You do love her as you have defended her ven while being upset but I do question her behaviour based on her pattern of lying and telling you to get over sex. Because I know as a woman I am quite capable of having sex even when I am not in the mood. And you don't just tell your spouse to "deal with it" when it comes to something as fundamental to a romantic relationship as sex.

[katielee]

Past entitlement is not letting something go of what we cannot change. Dwelling on things gone by and mourning what could have been. Past entitlement usually doesn't make us happy.

 

Well, using this logic I should be able to do whatever I want but hey, it's in the past and if you can't forgive me it's your fault.

 

No way. Mourning a marriage that has been tainted by an affair is a necessary step. So, people should not mourn and grieve being traumatized? Having their vows broken that they have kept?

[Allumere]

Revelations, your post makes me very sad. Not from the standpoint of you choosing not to marry etc. but your view of women based on your experiences and some of the feedback you have received from them. I can tell you that picture isn't me at all .....and I can't see it framing the women I know. As far as the government backing I assume you are referring to state divorce laws. Again that didn't apply to me as I didn't see a dime but he could buy a 750k property while we were still legally married. I left the marriage with what I came into it with, nothing.

[ForeverTainted]

Well, using this logic I should be able to do whatever I want but hey, it's in the past and if you can't forgive me it's your fault.

 

No way. Mourning a marriage that has been tainted by an affair is a necessary step. So, people should not mourn and grieve being traumatized? Having their vows broken that they have kept?

 

Never said that. But how long does one want to mourn a marriage for? To hold onto the hurt? Hold something against a person? For

SOMe forever, those people should choose divorce. And doing something and then stopping that behaviour and changing yourself is not repeat behaviour. I even told the OP his wife's current behaviour doesn't seem reconciable. Her lying is not in the past. Her attitude in the now bothers him. But stay or go letting go of what could have been will make him a happier person. Doesn't mean he won't have times it hurts but the people who remain focused become bitter.

 

But as to your last part, you seem very sensitive to what I wrote, looking for things not there... But we know you did break the same vows so maybe you are having trouble forgiving yourself and letting go of a past you can't change.

[katielee]

But as to your last part, you seem very sensitive to what I wrote, looking for things not there... But we know you did break the same vows so maybe you are having trouble forgiving yourself and letting go of a past you can't change.

 

Yes! Because I think if my husband would have healthily grieved and mourned for our lost marriage because I broke my vows rather than just moved on he wouldn't have had two RA. i think that people need to take some time to heal and mourn. Without this, it's a bubbling nuclear explosion waiting to happen.

To just move on and forget the past doesn't work. Case in point to our situation.

[revelations]

I'll never agree with the misoginist such as revelations that only see the men getting the raw deals and ignore the countless stories of cheating men while the wife works and does all the work around the house or the guys who never pay a dine of child support, ect. Poor behaviour is a human thing and using gender as an excuse is a copout.

 

ForeverTainted, before you use a big word like misogynist you should first learn what the word means. Being a misogynist means a hatred of women, that is not me. I am indifferent to women, their is a big difference. Just because I point out that laws in the family courts are bias against men or because I disagree with a woman does not make for a misogynist. So grow up and stop your petty little name calling. Yes there are men that cheat and yes there are men that get away without paying child support. Do you know why that is? It is because they only go after the men that is trying to do the right thing, those are the main targets of the court. I point out the bias in the courts because it does effect people like me who was and did do the right thing despite the courts. So pointing this out is not the makings of a misogynist. Now I have to ask, did YOU sprout a new whisker?

 

Allumere,

I'm sorry that my post makes you sad. I will tell you that I do not thing that all women take their husbands for everything. I actually know a few women that had that chance and turned it down. My point is that all women are capable of cleaning out their husbands or at least try to. The major thing that separates these women is morals. Some women do have a good strong moral and feel they should take care of themselves. My trouble is that I do not run across such women. Even if I do it would not matter because of the damage that has already been done to me. It is like asking a combat vet with PTSD to sit and watch fireworks go off on a nightly bases. The vet would go insane because of the flashbacks he would have from the PTSD. Likewise for me the thought of going any farther than a date gives me the chills. It took me 5 years after the fact of paying off my child support to even buy and put a vehicle in my name. This was because I was afraid of the DA coming after me for some trumped up reason and taking my vehicle. Yes I know it sounds like I am paranoid, however these are things that they will do. I spent 23yrs paying off my child support. During this time the DA would try and get me fired from jobs, threaten my customers, take away my drivers license, block grants for my education. I am very aware of what the DA can and will do in order to maximize a man's child support debt. So do I have a reason to stay away from women? Yes I do, I know what trouble can follow with them. Do I hate women at all? Nope, they are doing like any human will, which is being opportunistic. However you can describe me as being indifferent for the most part and fearful if I allow them to get to close. Mind you not fear of women, fear of what they can do. I always advise me to leave a cheating wife because I know in the end they will loose. They will loose more than a broken heart, they will loose their retirement, savings, house, car, etc. No man should have to go through that nor be a slave to a woman. Yes alimony is slavery in my book. My hopes is that any man reading this or is going through the pain of infidelity will read my words and think twice before exposing himself again like that.

 

ToughLove,

I do hope you find peace no matter which road you take. Just know this, if your WW feels that lying is her best action to take she will continue to do so. You still feel the same way because two years out your WW has not changed. Stay for now if you must, however I would advise an exit strategy for later on down the road.

[ForeverTainted]

ForeverTainted, before you use a big word like misogynist you should first learn what the word means. Being a misogynist means a hatred of women, that is not me. I am indifferent to women, their is a big difference. Just because I point out that laws in the family courts are bias against men or because I disagree with a woman does not make for a misogynist. So grow up and stop your petty little name calling. Yes there are men that cheat and yes there are men that get away without paying child support. Do you know why that is? It is because they only go after the men that is trying to do the right thing, those are the main targets of the court. I point out the bias in the courts because it does effect people like me who was and did do the right thing despite the courts. So pointing this out is not the makings of a misogynist. Now I have to ask, did YOU sprout a new whisker?

 

Allumere,

I'm sorry that my post makes you sad. I will tell you that I do not thing that all women take their husbands for everything. I actually know a few women that had that chance and turned it down. My point is that all women are capable of cleaning out their husbands or at least try to. The major thing that separates these women is morals. Some women do have a good strong moral and feel they should take care of themselves. My trouble is that I do not run across such women. Even if I do it would not matter because of the damage that has already been done to me. It is like asking a combat vet with PTSD to sit and watch fireworks go off on a nightly bases. The vet would go insane because of the flashbacks he would have from the PTSD. Likewise for me the thought of going any farther than a date gives me the chills. It took me 5 years after the fact of paying off my child support to even buy and put a vehicle in my name. This was because I was afraid of the DA coming after me for some trumped up reason and taking my vehicle. Yes I know it sounds like I am paranoid, however these are things that they will do. I spent 23yrs paying off my child support. During this time the DA would try and get me fired from jobs, threaten my customers, take away my drivers license, block grants for my education. I am very aware of what the DA can and will do in order to maximize a man's child support debt. So do I have a reason to stay away from women? Yes I do, I know what trouble can follow with them. Do I hate women at all? Nope, they are doing like any human will, which is being opportunistic. However you can describe me as being indifferent for the most part and fearful if I allow them to get to close. Mind you not fear of women, fear of what they can do. I always advise me to leave a cheating wife because I know in the end they will loose. They will loose more than a broken heart, they will loose their retirement, savings, house, car, etc. No man should have to go through that nor be a slave to a woman. Yes alimony is slavery in my book. My hopes is that any man reading this or is going through the pain of infidelity will read my words and think twice before exposing himself again like that.

 

ToughLove,

I do hope you find peace no matter which road you take. Just know this, if your WW feels that lying is her best action to take she will continue to do so. You still feel the same way because two years out your WW has not changed. Stay for now if you must, however I would advise an exit strategy for later on down the road.

 

 

You type a lot... And no sir, you hate on women by judgeing them and placing them in a box. and have only a small sampling of the courts. I have never seen a woman be favoured in the courts the extent you talk about. Maybe you should move? You sound like like a conspiritist.

 

You are at the very least a chauvinist. How can you not see it when every chance you get you write a very long essay about how you are foiling every man's plan to remain single.

 

I am so glad for any female out there that you choose to remain single.

[revelations]

You type a lot... And no sir, you hate on women by judgeing them and placing them in a box. and have only a small sampling of the courts. I have never seen a woman be favoured in the courts the extent you talk about. Maybe you should move? You sound like like a conspiritist.

 

You are at the very least a chauvinist. How can you not see it when every chance you get you write a very long essay about how you are foiling every man's plan to remain single.

 

I am so glad for any female out there that you choose to remain single.

 

I type a lot because I know how to. Once again you prove your ignorance with your very own words. Why don't you try to pick up a hobby rather than trying to convince everyone that disagrees with a woman as a misogynists. Yes your right I have only had a small sampling of court cases. I only spent 23yrs on my own case plus watching other cases before mine and dealing with friends cases. So go try and baffle someone else with your B.S. or at the very least learn how to use spell check. I know my spelling is not the best, however even I can use spell check. Once again you use the word "chauvinist" incorrectly. This again does not describe me at all. You nor anyone else would say that I am a chauvinist if I did not like the taste oranges so there for chose not to eat them. However you choose to try and label me as such because I choose not to date. I do not like what women have to offer nor do I think the risk is worth it. You never did answer my question. That is did you sprout another whisker?