Rising number of beta/clingy males in society

[thefooloftheyear]

Okay, but you said this, "Its been my nature to never be dependent on anyone..This was what I thought was expected of me as a man...People were supposed to be dependent, in some ways, on me..

 

Id never accept the role as some rich woman's "kept" man, even though its a lot easier than breaking my ass every day...Im well off and wont ever be in that situation, but Id sooner live in a box under a bridge, then have a woman support me in a "life" sense...Thats not true of a lot of guys today...They seem content to let the woman be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride...They live their lives with their sole focus on making their wives/gf life easier so they dont lose thier deal..

 

Im not criticizing it..Just curious how guys are able to accept the role of the clingy and dependent type...*shrug*.."

 

So then you believe in a gender double standard? It is okay to be a female and "seem content to let the woman [man] be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride . . . how guy [gals] are able to accept the role of the clingy and dependent type ..."

 

Why is okay and acceptable for a woman to take the passive role and let the man lead, at least financially and also be the "heavy hitter" when it comes to decisions but if roles are reversed the guy is clingy and dependent? It sounds like woman are expected to bring less to the table but financially and from a decision sense.

 

My view of marriage, is the two are equal partners. They utilize each other's strengths, hopefully balance out their areas of opportunity/weaknesses and make a stronger united front. For example, my husband and I are both fairly dominant/assertive personalities. So we have found that we take turn being the "bad" cop in situations. When we need to push back on a vendor, etc. we pause a beat to see who is leading the charge and one will take it and the other plays supporting role. Some times there is a "good" cop at play as well, sometimes a neutral party. It is an interesting dynamic we have worked out but is greatly enjoyable instead of being one sided and one always the heavy.

 

Hard to decipher this, because of how you quoted it...

 

But nothing is wrong with equality...Its a desirable thing for everyone...

 

I guess the original intent of the post is the part about guys who are clingy and dependent..I dont get that..Dont know what else to say..*shrug*

 

TFY

Edited July 7, 2014 by thefooloftheyear

[fortyninethousand322]

The problem with the beta/clingy males isn't that they become stay at home dads. Most of these guys don't ever even make it to the stage of being a parent to have that dilemma.

 

Usually with these types of guys if a woman even shows a whiff of interest they become obsessed. They drop whatever it is in life they are doing to spend time with the girl, and usually "spending time" involves them awkwardly hanging around the girl while she does whatever she wants to do.

 

They show way too much interest way too soon because well, they have no better options. And then they go online to complain that women don't like them. I'm not sure if it's a feminine trait or a whatever, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that these men have no concept of self confidence whatsoever despite growing up in a era known for participation trophies and building children's self esteem. It's the ultimate irony.

[No Limit]

Weird to read all this. But comparing it to the guys I know, there are plenty who do fit into the "beta"-role.

 

Can't speak for others but personally I'd love a partner to be an equal rather than a pet. There are dogs for that, you know.

And due to their fur they have a big advantage for the pet-position.

[Owl]

Got about halfway through this thread, and it really just spawned a few questions.

 

What...in the context of modern human beings...defines an "alpha male", or a "beta male"?

 

The willingness to kick someone's ass in a second for a minor violation of social etiquette? The ability to fix your car and use firearms? Business acumen and success?

 

Seems to me folks like to throw these terms around with very little definition.

 

By traditional definition of "alpha" and "beta" animals in a pack/herd setting...something like 98% of the human population would HAVE TO be 'beta'.

 

So only 2% of the male population is worthy to reproduce? Or worthy of respect?

 

And again...based on what criteria? Leadership? Emotional stoicism? Power tool ownership?

[Owl]

You think that they don't teach crafts and sewing anymore because of being PC? Don't you think it may be because times have changed and the value of at least sewing is minimal now and I am not not sure what value crafting is outside of elementary school.

 

Technology has taken the focus of all other areas of development like cooking, sewing, mechanics, etc. We are now teaching BOTH genders a greater focus on the sciences, math, and technology. I don't see that as a negative at all.

 

In regards to sewing, why shouldn't both genders learn how? Why should that be a purely female pursuit?

 

A bit of a tangent, but I just had to respond to this.

 

I'm a combat veteran. I've qualified expert on pretty much every small arms that the U.S. Army uses...and on several Soviet ones as well. I've taught kenpo and karate off and on for years. I'm an avid backpacker and outdoorsman...I also assist in teaching wilderness survival.

 

I've spent decades repairing electronics and computers. I can fix my own car most of the time.

 

I surely don't consider myself as any kind of whimp, or whatever negative term you wanna use.

 

For the record...I can sew on a machine better than my wife. I make some of my own gear. I can also knit and crochet damn near anything. I have zero issue with knitting/crocheting in public...let some neanderthal think I'm a whimp...his opinion means nothing to me anyway, and I'm certainly not afraid of getting beat up over it.

 

Gender roles are for those who worry about other people's opinions.

 

I grew up in the tail end of a family that had six kids. Every single one of us learned how to hunt, fish, track, and trap game. Grew up on a farm...we all learned how to plant/work a garden, care for horses and other animals, and maintain our equipment. We all also learned how to cook, clean, and sew. There were no assigned "girl chores" and "boy chores".

[thefooloftheyear]

Ugh, again what if you reverse the roles? What is wrong with a man knowing, that no matter how successful he is he has a wife that can take the ball and run with it if needed and can financially support the family as well? Wouldn't that be found to be an attractive trait?

 

And if they have a family, what if the guy is a SAHD? Why isn't it an option that both genders can be there to nurture and raise the kids? Why do you see raising children as purely the female's role? Outside of breast feeding and birthing the children, there is nothing else tied to raising children that is solely a female attribute or ability. Why are things seen as so one dimensional?

 

Do you really believe this??

 

That women arent natural born nurturer's?? More so than men??

 

Uhhh,,,,ok....

 

Again...what if the woman wants to be a SAHM and the guy isnt capable of carrying the load?? What then? Give up on having kids?? Throw them in a daycare facility, i suppose thats the answer...

 

PS...To answer a previous post...I am who I am...Ive been pretty successful in life despite starting with less than nothing..No one in my circle sees me as a knuckle dragger or Neanderthal, as I think you probably view me...I just dont understand the roles that some men adopt now where they just allow the woman to do everything and they act like 12 year olds, waiting for an allowance...I dont mock it, quite frankly I dont give a shyt, myself...But because we are participating in a discussion about it I am waiting for someone to clarify it..Havent heard anything that makes sense yet..

 

 

TFY

Edited July 7, 2014 by thefooloftheyear

[Owl]

PS...To answer a previous post...I am who I am...Ive been pretty successful in life despite starting with less than nothing..No one in my circle sees me as a knuckle dragger or Neanderthal, as I think you probably view me...I just dont understand the roles that some men adopt now where they just allow the woman to do everything and they act like 12 year olds, waiting for an allowance...I dont mock it, quite frankly I dont give a shyt, myself...But because we are participating in a discussion about it I am waiting for someone to clarify it..Havent heard anything that makes sense yet..

 

 

TFY

 

Haven't seen anything to lead me to think you're a neanderthal...unless of course you start making rude comments while I'm knitting...LOL!

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and feelings...people are always going to think/feel how they do.

 

It's how the treat others that matters.

 

By the same token...I still haven't seen anyone post a decent explanation/definition of an "alpha" or "beta" male in modern human society as I'd mentioned in my prior post.

 

And I'm still curious...since "alpha males" would make up an extremely small percentage of the human race (<2% if it were comparable to apes, for example)...does that mean everyone else just sucks and should shuffle off this mortal coil because they add no value to the world?

[serial muse]

Do you really believe this??

 

That women arent natural born nurturer's?? More so than men??

 

Uhhh,,,,ok....

 

Again...what if the woman wants to be a SAHM and the guy isnt capable of carrying the load?? What then? Give up on having kids?? Throw them in a daycare facility, i suppose thats the answer...

 

PS...To answer a previous post...I am who I am...Ive been pretty successful in life despite starting with less than nothing..No one in my circle sees me as a knuckle dragger or Neanderthal, as I think you probably view me...I just dont understand the roles that some men adopt now where they just allow the woman to do everything and they act like 12 year olds, waiting for an allowance...I dont mock it, quite frankly I dont give a shyt, myself...But because we are participating in a discussion about it I am waiting for someone to clarify it..Havent heard anything that makes sense yet..

 

 

TFY

 

TFY, you seem to be conflating two things here, and I think that's where some disconnect is coming in.

 

On the one hand, there's the issue of - for example - a SAHD, who is hardly a 12-year-old, but would instead have a very important and responsible and mature role as the primary caregiver for a child. Along with that goes the idea that a woman can be the primary breadwinner, and that that isn't a matter of ANYBODY shirking responsibility or being immature, just simply a different way to structure two important responsibilities between two adult human beings.

 

On the other hand there's the issue of a man not taking responsibility for himself, let alone anyone else.

 

Those are two very different things, but you seem to be suggesting - in what I think is coming across as a very close-minded and kind of judgmental way - that they are the same!! Do you see why people would take issue with that? Nobody's calling you a Neanderthal, but it would be nice if you'd stop to think about what you're saying first. It seems like you're getting a bit defensive, but maybe you should take a moment to think about how you're coming across here and what you really want to convey.

 

Now I don't really understand why people have to go with all this talk of betas and alphas - it's silly and limiting and judgmental, frankly, to divide men into binary groups like that; humans aren't a wolf pack and we have a very complex society and very complex brains and we are perfectly capable of moving between roles and acting with far more subtlety than that. But if we're going to insist on determining who's a beta, then we probably should make sure we're all on the same page with what that actually means. Because it's for damn sure it doesn't mean BOTH a guy acting like a child and a guy acting like a responsible parent. So, decide.

 

Edited to add: This came off as harsh and I don't mean to be. But I think you and Got It are talking at cross-purposes.

Edited July 8, 2014 by serial muse

[thefooloftheyear]

TFY, you seem to be conflating two things here, and I think that's where some disconnect is coming in.

 

On the one hand, there's the issue of - for example - a SAHD, who is hardly a 12-year-old, but would instead have a very important and responsible and mature role as the primary caregiver for a child. Along with that goes the idea that a woman can be the primary breadwinner, and that that isn't a matter of ANYBODY shirking responsibility or being immature, just simply a different way to structure two important responsibilities between two adult human beings.

 

On the other hand there's the issue of a man not taking responsibility for himself, let alone anyone else.

 

Those are two very different things, but you seem to be suggesting - in what I think is coming across as a very close-minded and kind of judgmental way - that they are the same!! Do you see why people would take issue with that? Nobody's calling you a Neanderthal, but it would be nice if you'd stop to think about what you're saying first. It seems like you're getting a bit defensive, but maybe you should take a moment to think about how you're coming across here and what you really want to convey.

 

Now I don't really understand why people have to go with all this talk of betas and alphas - it's silly and limiting and judgmental, frankly, to divide men into binary groups like that; humans aren't a wolf pack and we have a very complex society and very complex brains and we are perfectly capable of moving between roles and acting with far more subtlety than that. But if we're going to insist on determining who's a beta, then we probably should make sure we're all on the same page with what that actually means. Because it's for damn sure it doesn't mean BOTH a guy acting like a child and a guy acting like a responsible parent. So, decide.

 

I know exactly what I am saying...If someone cant understand it, what can I say??..*shrug*

 

Its my opinion that a dad isnt quite as capable as a mom in the early years of child rearing...I guess all the people who dont have a child(I do, btw), seem to have a problem with it..I dunno..

 

I like a good argument, but I never really get defensive...My opinions are my own-dont care what anyone else thinks, and ill challenge their views as they challenge mine...And we can all hug when its done...

 

Newsflash...Strong(dominant?) men actually prefer strong women...They dont get intimidated, so there is no power play...Again, just my experience..YMMV

 

The whole point of the original post has nothing to do with women being the breadwinner...I dont know a single man on the planet that doesnt like this attribute, me included...Make as much as you can...The more the merrier..Again, strong men(that are also strong earners) aren't intimidated by this....They never feel like they are beholden to a woman that is carrying them, as a lot of guys are today...

 

The thread has nothing to do with me....I dont fit the mold of the type of men that are being questioned/discussed...

 

For me its this simple....

 

For a guy to be raised as strong and independent should have no bearing on what a woman does with her life..Why a woman would get defensive about it and call someone names is beyond me...I always thought that women preferred those traits, but ??..Why are women accepting of guys that may not be the type that stands on their own two feet without the emotional and financial backing of of their wives/gfs just confounds me..It flies against everything a man is supposed to be as I was brought up...(key word here is I.)..

 

I suppose one could speculate that this dynamic allows some women to feel more in control of the man/relationship because he is dependent on her?? There is some level of security in knowing that she has that control??

 

At the end of the day, while I dont quite get it, if it works for both people then, it matters to nobody..least not me, thats for sure...

 

.02

 

TFY

[serial muse]

For a guy to be raised as strong and independent should have no bearing on what a woman does with her life..Why a woman would get defensive about it and call someone names is beyond me...I always thought that women preferred those traits, but ??..Why are women accepting of guys that may not be the type that stands on their own two feet without the emotional and financial backing of of their wives/gfs just confounds me..It flies against everything a man is supposed to be as I was brought up...(key word here is I.)..

 

I suppose one could speculate that this dynamic allows some women to feel more in control of the man/relationship because he is dependent on her?? There is some level of security in knowing that she has that control??

 

At the end of the day, while I dont quite get it, if it works for both people then, it matters to nobody..least not me, thats for sure...

 

.02

 

TFY

 

I don't think you actually answered my question. Is a "beta", to you, a man who acts like a child or a man who raises one as a SAHD? Do you think those two men are the same?

 

Because, again, you have been conflating the two in your posts, it IS confusing and not clear what you really think, and that is where the disconnect comes in. I'm not sure you get that yet.

[thefooloftheyear]

I don't think you actually answered my question. Is a "beta", to you, a man who acts like a child or a man who raises one as a SAHD? Do you think those two men are the same?

 

Because, again, you have been conflating the two in your posts, it IS confusing and not clear what you really think, and that is where the disconnect comes in. I'm not sure you get that yet.

 

I never used the word alpha or beta to describe anyone, wouldnt even know how to properly characterize it, so how can I answer the question..?.

 

A woman is better served than a guy to raise a child in the very early years...Its my opinion only...Its neither "good nor bad"...

 

A guy that acts like a child....isnt a man...What more can I say.??

 

Hope that answers your questions..

 

Im good..Business is booming, stocks are all up, units are all rented, health is good..family all good and kid is having a great summer...

 

Now let me get back to business, cuz J-Lo wont return my calls.

 

Have a great day!

 

TFY

[serial muse]

I never used the word alpha or beta to describe anyone, wouldnt even know how to properly characterize it, so how can I answer the question..?.

 

A woman is better served than a guy to raise a child in the very early years...Its my opinion only...Its neither "good nor bad"...

 

A guy that acts like a child....isnt a man...What more can I say.??

 

Hope that answers your questions..

 

Im good..Business is booming, stocks are all up, units are all rented, health is good..family all good and kid is having a great summer...

 

Now let me get back to business, cuz J-Lo wont return my calls.

 

Have a great day!

 

TFY

 

Sigh. I get the feeling that you kind of willfully ignore other peoples' points of view but just want to get yours out there. Hard to have a discussion in that situation. But OK. Tell J. Lo I said hi.

[GorillaTheater]

I'm pretty sure I'll get a bunch of disagreement (it's a touchy subject that's been harped on at length here and elsewhere), but I've always viewed, for my own convenience if nothing else, Alpha traits as being more geared towards advancing a person's immediate interests, like leadership, initiative, aggressiveness (mentally and sexually if not necessarily physically), confidence, etc. Beta traits would include the more nurturing and beneficial for the "collective", like empathy, self-control, providing for your family, etc.

 

I think both genders need a balance of both, depending on the nature of the relationships they have with others. All too often, however, there is a lack of balance, or maybe even a lack of either one.

[M30USA]

Thank the single mom epidemic. They raise boys like girls and when the father tries to raise boys like men they call CPS. I literally have a sister in law who called CPS on her neighbor who was raising his voice at his son. I don't even think there was profanity or threats. I kid you not.

Edited July 8, 2014 by M30USA

[Owl]

I'm pretty sure I'll get a bunch of disagreement (it's a touchy subject that's been harped on at length here and elsewhere), but I've always viewed, for my own convenience if nothing else, Alpha traits as being more geared towards advancing a person's immediate interests, like leadership, initiative, aggressiveness (mentally and sexually if not necessarily physically), confidence, etc. Beta traits would include the more nurturing and beneficial for the "collective", like empathy, self-control, providing for your family, etc.

 

I think both genders need a balance of both, depending on the nature of the relationships they have with others. All too often, however, there is a lack of balance, or maybe even a lack of either one.

 

Actually...I really like this post.

 

And I like the recognition of a need for balance.

 

It reminds me of my time in the service. As an NCO, we had a saying that we had to live by. "When in charge, take charge. When not in charge...take orders.".

 

Military service has to be one or the more "alpha male" type professions...NCO's perhaps moreso. But not everyone can be the max-dominant, always-in-charge, my-way-or-the-highway person 100% of the time. Sometimes, you're in charge, running the show, making the decisions, leading the movement. Sometimes...you're the guy who's gotta take the orders.

 

Balance.

 

Too much of one or the other...'alpha' or 'beta'...can lead to unhealthy relationships and situations.