BlueIris Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Hm - define whining. For example, if I have a ****ty day at work and then open up to my girl and vent about how I hate being powerless to counter-act what my firm's management is doing at the moment, is this whining or being open? To go a step further - if said girl completely backs away after that day, goes radio-silent for a few more days, and does not really show any support/compassion, would it be whining if I get upset with her because of it? Sorry but in a relationship you have to be able to vent and complain about stuff to your partner and said partner is supposed to give you support. This shouldn't happen all the time but there are moments in life when one is frustrated and what's the point of a partner if that person can't be by your side and help you pick yourself up? Now, since that day I figured my issues out and got my superiors to get me that bonus, so I guess I'm alpha enough to do that However, if I'm really close with someone (suppsoedly), I do expect to be able to open up and not having to keep up the invincible alpha guy charade all the time. No man - regardless of how alpha he is - is made of stone and taking the risk of opening up to your partner is actually much more alpha and takes much more strength and confidence than being closed off and playing unbreakable all the time. Just my 2c but I'd be curious to read your response. Okay. My definitions and perspectives. “how I hate being powerless” You’re not powerless. This is different from being frustrated and moving to solve your problem. You say later that balance or doing it too much is the key and I agree. But “too much” is a personal measure. People differ on how much is too much. “does not really show any support/compassion, would it be whining if I get upset with her because of it?” By my scale, yes. And it would be whiney of me to expect, demand, need that too- as you point out, “too much.” “Sorry but…” passive aggressive warning sign, weak argument to come. Avoid this speech pattern. “…in a relationship you have to be able to vent and complain about stuff to your partner and said partner is supposed to give you support.” That’s something YOU do and want in a partner, but not a law of relationships or human interaction. You have every right to want that and find someone who provides you the type of support you want, but what you consider “support” isn’t what everyone considers support, or enough support, or the right style of support. “keep up the invincible alpha guy charade all the time. No man - regardless of how alpha he is - is made of stone and taking the risk of opening up to your partner is actually much more alpha and takes much more strength and confidence than being closed off and playing unbreakable all the time.” Hyperbole, assumptions, stereotyping, dismissive. Weak argument form so I lost track of the argument. I consider this whiney. My measure. I dated a guy for a while who complained and whined and vented about his life so much, I just couldn’t take it any more. It exceeded my tolerance. Sex became a drag. He was a 50 year old LEO, federal government, former military, very smart, professionally successful- alpha on paper shall we say? But ferheavensake the man whined and licked his wounds raw. (my opinion) Was I supportive and warm “enough” for him? No- by personality and choice. I viewed him as an emotional black hole, a net negative to my life. Note that I haven’t justified my perspective by saying how often and how he complained and vented, and how much he was supportive of me or interested in my life, thoughts and feelings. That’s because these things are relative.
ThaWholigan Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Given the opprotunity to give this some thought, a few other things come to light... Its been my experience that not all cultures "demand" the same qualities in what a "man" is supposed to be... Italian and Jewish folks put quite a lot of pressure on thier men to be the "do it all" type of men, that are expected to be successful, take care of their families and just be the type of guy that is independent and strong.. Seems like Italian or Jewish women are not going to be very happy with a guy that is a low achieving, passive type...As some have found out, like a good friend of mine who was married to an Italian woman who constantly complained to him that he wasnt earning enough or doing enough..She divorced him over it.. Again, this may or may not be a quality where you live, or with the people you know, but its what I have noticed... Its been my nature to never be dependent on anyone..This was what I thought was expected of me as a man...People were supposed to be dependent, in some ways, on me.. Id never accept the role as some rich woman's "kept" man, even though its a lot easier than breaking my ass every day...Im well off and wont ever be in that situation, but Id sooner live in a box under a bridge, then have a woman support me in a "life" sense...Thats not true of a lot of guys today...They seem content to let the woman be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride...They live their lives with their sole focus on making their wives/gf life easier so they dont lose thier deal.. Im not criticizing it..Just curious how guys are able to accept the role of the clingy and dependent type...*shrug*... Maybe some younger guys can comment on this and help me to understand.. TFY Clingy and dependent types - I don't think any one wants necessarily to identify with this particular troupe, but I understand that some men do fit this nowadays. Honestly (and this is a little ironic coming from me) but a lot of that is to do with the fact that they are very much "mummy's boys". Not that single mothers raise needy sons, but some may not teach them necessarily how to develop enough emotional boundaries to avoid dependency on a woman. I can't say I'm a clingy or dependent person really. Being autistic, I need my space more than most people . But I do think my mother mothers me too much sometimes! I will say this though - as I mentioned earlier, some men don't want to identify with the traditional ideal of men doing the heavy lifting in the relationship or "do it all" as you put it. Evidently, we aren't all built like that and some have to find a balance. Being dependent on a woman and clingy is obviously not the right one in many cases. But having said that, women are also encouraged to be more than their own traditional role that they would have had to live up to. It's simply a case of wanting different things. I'm sure back in the day there were guys who longed for an opportunity to relinquish their "traditional role" in favor of something more balanced - and maybe a tad more relaxed - but were not able to so had to keep soldiering on. I'd say that you (TFY) would probably have more respect for that man anyway because the ideals you take on would be embodied by a man who did so. I understand your confusion at this kind of man who doesn't want to be the leader and cedes to the woman in his life. Me personally, I understand that not every man and woman is the same as another man or woman, so it's all about finding that dynamic with a partner - and indeed facing enough obstacles to grow into the kind of person that can build character and express their - for lack of a better term in this instance - "beta-like" traits in a more positive way than being clingy, passive-aggressive or dependent. Me personally, I am in favor of a more equal partnership in a relationship. I will likely be the dominant one in the bedroom though . 3
EasyHeart Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Clingy and dependent types - I don't think any one wants necessarily to identify with this particular troupe, but I understand that some men do fit this nowadays. Honestly (and this is a little ironic coming from me) but a lot of that is to do with the fact that they are very much "mummy's boys". Not that single mothers raise needy sons, but some may not teach them necessarily how to develop enough emotional boundaries to avoid dependency on a woman. This. I don't think it's a coincidence that the increase in Betas (or whatever you want to call them) coincides with the explosion of single motherhood. 3
thefooloftheyear Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear You didnt directly answer the question, but what do you make of the dynamic where the woman is the heavy in the relationship and is the one that is required to be the earner, the doer, the "decision maker", etc, while the guy just kinda stands back and lets the woman do her thing, so to speak.? Just curious...Other women, feel free to answer as well.. TFY I wouldn’t be happy with that and I wouldn’t be happy with a man who wanted or needed to dominate, earn, do and decide everything or who wanted a wife who wanted that dynamic. But it works for some people (I hear). I dont think or expect any woman would be happy about it...Nor would any guy really be happy with an overly emotional, needy, miserable b!tch either....No need to state the obvious, I suppose... But, all too often you are seeing these scenarios where the guy is just content to chug along and let the woman do all of the heavy lifting.. If you have ever seen an episode of the TV show, "Judge Judy", just about every night you will see an outwardly educated, well put together woman, with a great career, who is taking an ex bf to court for all of the things she either did or paid for while the guy was unemployed, underemployed, addicted, irresponsible, incarcerated, whatever....And in most of these cases the guy was the one dumping the woman! She winds up taking him to court out of spite because she is bitter that she got canned.... And all I can say is wtf is wrong with these women? They seem attractive and well put together...Why would they choose to carry these sorry dudes..?? And some are dumb enough to have kids with them, too!! TFY
Atem Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Okay. My definitions and perspectives. “how I hate being powerless” You’re not powerless. This is different from being frustrated and moving to solve your problem. You say later that balance or doing it too much is the key and I agree. But “too much” is a personal measure. People differ on how much is too much. “does not really show any support/compassion, would it be whining if I get upset with her because of it?” By my scale, yes. And it would be whiney of me to expect, demand, need that too- as you point out, “too much.” “Sorry but…” passive aggressive warning sign, weak argument to come. Avoid this speech pattern. “…in a relationship you have to be able to vent and complain about stuff to your partner and said partner is supposed to give you support.” That’s something YOU do and want in a partner, but not a law of relationships or human interaction. You have every right to want that and find someone who provides you the type of support you want, but what you consider “support” isn’t what everyone considers support, or enough support, or the right style of support. “keep up the invincible alpha guy charade all the time. No man - regardless of how alpha he is - is made of stone and taking the risk of opening up to your partner is actually much more alpha and takes much more strength and confidence than being closed off and playing unbreakable all the time.” Hyperbole, assumptions, stereotyping, dismissive. Weak argument form so I lost track of the argument. I consider this whiney. My measure. I dated a guy for a while who complained and whined and vented about his life so much, I just couldn’t take it any more. It exceeded my tolerance. Sex became a drag. He was a 50 year old LEO, federal government, former military, very smart, professionally successful- alpha on paper shall we say? But ferheavensake the man whined and licked his wounds raw. (my opinion) Was I supportive and warm “enough” for him? No- by personality and choice. I viewed him as an emotional black hole, a net negative to my life. Note that I haven’t justified my perspective by saying how often and how he complained and vented, and how much he was supportive of me or interested in my life, thoughts and feelings. That’s because these things are relative. Hm - you sound like a real treat, I gotta tell you. But, as you said, to each his own. As for your comments about speech patterns and expressions - it's ridiculous to think so much into every single word and behavior. Again - I guess what people want out of relationships is different - but isn't the point of being with someone essentially to not have to hold up a guard 24/7? Trust me - nobody is made of stone and neither are you despite your oh-so-tough tone and messages on this forum. A partner is a person with whom you should be able to have your crappy/low/down/weak/whateveryouwanna call them moment without any fear of repercussions. Oh - and you mentioned complaining without doing something about it - I'm with you there. Just complaints followed by no action are lame. However, what if complaining/saying things out loud help you do something about them? I've found that bitching about stuff helps me calm down and find a solution and - as I said - I got my bonus the very next week after a follow-on talk with my boss. If I had just let the negativity bottle up inside of me to keep my stone-cold facade in from of my girl, I guarantee that I wouldn't have turned this around. By the way - when I say my girl, I mean ex-girl --> I dumped her because of this episode. Dismissal and no support/interest at all in my life after I invested 2 months into being great to her (in her words: "you treat me incredibly well - much better than any guy ever has") is just unacceptable. But anyway - guess everybody has his/her own priority list that needs to be satisfied. Mine's different than yours - let's move on. Thx for sharing.
Author ponchsox Posted July 3, 2014 Author Posted July 3, 2014 True. Dave Chappele has a sketch called 100% nig.r. The point of the sketch is that girls dont want the 98% good guy, they dont want 99%, they want 100%. Of course everyone has flaws so even the dude they think is 100% eventually falls below the platinum standard due to some real or perceived flaw and theyre off in search of greener pastures. This i blame on feminism, and it affects them too. They want an alpha male, yet they want a man they can boss around. They want a killer career, yet they want to be good wives and mothers. They want to be beautiful, but they also want to sit and wolf back ice cream because being beautiful isnt everything. Family sitcoms reflect this. Super hot wife berates and bosses around dumb oaf husband and father in tandem with kids every episode. In real life super hot wife would choose alpha male, who would not put up with her bullsht bitching all day and would snap at her, she would cry call her friends, call him abusive and take the kids and end up living alone as a single mother, serially dating alpha males who had no interest in being cuckolded who just bang her and she feels lost and alone. In reality the first dude was probably just fine. She chose to have kids with him and marry him, its her who changed not him. Ugh Very true. A lot of women today want their cake and be able to eat it to. I dated a girl who was exactly as you described. She liked me because I am independent, have my own place, do manly things, yet she wanted to boss me around when she had a kid and tons of baggage. I couldn't hit the eject button faster. Funny now she's popping back up again and wants to be friends. She probably hit a dry spell and figured I'd get sucked in
DarkKnight1 Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 There is Defiantly A Rise No Doubt About It. I Thinks It The Rise Of Single Mothers / Fatherless Sons Although If The Father Is Around But Submissive To Mom Then We Get The Same Outcome I Guess, And Of Course Media And The Effeminate Male Image Portrayed As Man Being Dominated By This New Gen Womanhood. This Is All Done By Design.
Eggplant Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 You think that they don't teach crafts and sewing anymore because of being PC? Don't you think it may be because times have changed and the value of at least sewing is minimal now and I am not not sure what value crafting is outside of elementary school. Technology has taken the focus of all other areas of development like cooking, sewing, mechanics, etc. We are now teaching BOTH genders a greater focus on the sciences, math, and technology. I don't see that as a negative at all. In regards to sewing, why shouldn't both genders learn how? Why should that be a purely female pursuit? This whole conversation makes me think of my ex, who was self-sufficient in every way because he grew up dirt poor. And he sewed. (It does save money to just sew the button back on instead of buying another shirt.) Cooking healthy meals is a basic life skill. It's neither healthy nor economical to east at restaurants that much. It's not a gender thing. My sons and daughters, should I have any, will learn to cook. By crafts, I meant the kind of thing people do with saws or hammers. All these little things like plumbing, fixing things, these little things really do make life easier and make a person more independent and are appreciated. In general, the richer the person, the more utterly dependent they are because they don't know how to take care of basics. 3
Robert Z Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) So funny, I can remember when women wanted men to be more compliant. The classic alpha male stereotype became a virtual joke - a Neanderthal out of time. So if you ask me, women got what they wanted. I watched as my sister feminized her sons and rejected all things classically alpha. Her husband supports her and their children. They have a beautiful house. And he works his ass off. But she runs the house and is clearly in charge. And he hasn't had sex in at least three years now. So alpha, beta? How about, betrayed? One of the problems my ex and I had was that we were both alphas. I guess you could say that eventually I conceded the alpha ground but only because I thought the marriage was worth saving. I made the mistake of assuming good intentions on her part and tried to make it work. Looking back now, I should have told her to go to hell the first time she disrespected me. But when you love someone you will tolerate a lot... a lot more than you should. I had a cousin who was my mother's age, who met us both for the first time about two years into our marriage. Within about five minutes she started asking how in the hell we ever got or stayed married. She saw then what I never understood until it was far too late. Two dominant personalities just don't work. The ex should have told me that she really just wanted a sugar daddy who never bothers her, has no self respect, and caters to her every need. That would have been a perfect match. Edited July 5, 2014 by Robert Z
ascendotum Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Some might find this interesting... Rise of the American metrosexual: How the modern man now feels empowered to abandon traditional masculine sterotypes (yeah I know the DM lol) Where I live women championed the SNAG (sensitive new age guy) in the 90s, then came the Metrosexual trend, which is still here. The SNAG trend died out. While women said they wanted it (probably more so women journos + magazines, then their readers), but after a while guys picked up its not what they took home to sleep with, nor were they all that happy in relationships with them. Guys wised up...well the savvy ones did. Masculinity rocks for women. I do notice the trend with single mothers - sons who tend to be betas, and daughters who chase alphas/jerk/bad boy no hoper types.
Got it Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 This is so true. I wonder how much of the self-pitying beta phenomenon is a function of women in their 20’s and early 30’s exceeding their male peers in education and income, on average. For that matter, even in the older age groups, women are earning more money, more are primary earners in the households, males’ economic status is no longer such an important factor in mating as before. In general, statistically, men as a group no longer have that huge advantage compared to women. Since women can now meet their basic needs, first and second level needs in the Maslovian hierarchy of needs, they choose on other bases. Whiners whine that women are being too picky or too uppity, but actually self-sufficient women are being perfectly logical and tracking Maslow’s theory perfectly. THIS is what is frustrating and angering many non-alpha males: They used to have an advantage, something that they brought to a relationship that the woman didn’t or couldn’t, and that advantage is gone or going fast. So now they have to have other attractive qualities to attract mates since they can’t rely on providing at levels one and two any more. Some argue that the solution is remove female economic parity, or near parity, to return to the good old days when providing for basic needs, levels one and two, made them desirable. But that is not an alpha argument- to hobble others so you can restore a status that you held that was external, not earned. Alphas take the field as it is, compete and win. What the whiners don’t assess is themselves: What do I bring to a relationship? How would someone, anyone, have a better life by being my partner? You have to look at what the "other side" wants and needs, not what you want or need. I do agree that the idea that financial superiority is a male right and lauded in the dating pool has changed. While my husband makes very good money I surpass him in both salary and title. What is fantastic is he is not threatened by it at all. For him, we are not in competition and he actually enjoys that the financial pressure is not only on him like it was in his past marriage. We have discussed (because we agree that any prolonged time off in one's resume can be a negative) taken mutual and concurrent sabbaticals/breaks to recharge our batteries. While a year off sounds enjoyable I couldn't imagine not working. I would be bored out of my mind (actually would just start my own business again! lol). If someone things their edge is solely their income they need to really reassess what they bring to the table and what makes them a viable partner. Most are expecting far more nowadays in a relationship. 2
Got it Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Given the opprotunity to give this some thought, a few other things come to light... Its been my experience that not all cultures "demand" the same qualities in what a "man" is supposed to be... Italian and Jewish folks put quite a lot of pressure on thier men to be the "do it all" type of men, that are expected to be successful, take care of their families and just be the type of guy that is independent and strong.. Seems like Italian or Jewish women are not going to be very happy with a guy that is a low achieving, passive type...As some have found out, like a good friend of mine who was married to an Italian woman who constantly complained to him that he wasnt earning enough or doing enough..She divorced him over it.. Again, this may or may not be a quality where you live, or with the people you know, but its what I have noticed... Its been my nature to never be dependent on anyone..This was what I thought was expected of me as a man...People were supposed to be dependent, in some ways, on me.. Id never accept the role as some rich woman's "kept" man, even though its a lot easier than breaking my ass every day...Im well off and wont ever be in that situation, but Id sooner live in a box under a bridge, then have a woman support me in a "life" sense...Thats not true of a lot of guys today...They seem content to let the woman be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride...They live their lives with their sole focus on making their wives/gf life easier so they dont lose thier deal.. Im not criticizing it..Just curious how guys are able to accept the role of the clingy and dependent type...*shrug*... Maybe some younger guys can comment on this and help me to understand.. TFY Then do you see women, who make less than than their male partner as "clingy" and "dependent"?
Got it Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 You didnt directly answer the question, but what do you make of the dynamic where the woman is the heavy in the relationship and is the one that is required to be the earner, the doer, the "decision maker", etc, while the guy just kinda stands back and lets the woman do her thing, so to speak.? Just curious...Other women, feel free to answer as well.. TFY Why is a man's worth solely tied to his income level or parity? So let's say a man is making more than his wife but is laid off. Is he now dependent and clingy? I think this mind set is SO insulting for men and reduces their value to only their paycheck. And why is it so black and white that the paycheck is the definition of being a "decision maker"? My first marriage, my husband, until the last year, made far more than me. But most decisions were decided by me as I am a far more dominant person. My marriage now, I make more than my husband but in regards to decisions for our family, etc. we are very mutual. We discuss everything and make a group decision. Why is it paired that the one that pulls in the money is the one who makes a decision? I think what this is really speaking to is your view of men and women and roles in a marriage. I think it really shows how you view women, especially in a marriage, and how the power is based on the paycheck. I find that really sad and one dimensional on what a marriage can be. 2
Got it Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 This whole conversation makes me think of my ex, who was self-sufficient in every way because he grew up dirt poor. And he sewed. (It does save money to just sew the button back on instead of buying another shirt.) Cooking healthy meals is a basic life skill. It's neither healthy nor economical to east at restaurants that much. It's not a gender thing. My sons and daughters, should I have any, will learn to cook. By crafts, I meant the kind of thing people do with saws or hammers. All these little things like plumbing, fixing things, these little things really do make life easier and make a person more independent and are appreciated. In general, the richer the person, the more utterly dependent they are because they don't know how to take care of basics. Really? Says who? You? What studies have you seen that cite these stats? I think you are really making some gross assumptions. I doubt income levels actually show a trend of such skills. Your original argument seemed to argue gender tied to these skills and who should know them. Now you are arguing socio-economics. Which one is it? Bottomline, nowadays, most of these skills will be learned moreso because of desire to do so than need. One can work around if so desired. And healthy cooking is shown to be done at higher income levels than lower.
thefooloftheyear Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Why is a man's worth solely tied to his income level or parity? So let's say a man is making more than his wife but is laid off. Is he now dependent and clingy? I think this mind set is SO insulting for men and reduces their value to only their paycheck. And why is it so black and white that the paycheck is the definition of being a "decision maker"? My first marriage, my husband, until the last year, made far more than me. But most decisions were decided by me as I am a far more dominant person. My marriage now, I make more than my husband but in regards to decisions for our family, etc. we are very mutual. We discuss everything and make a group decision. Why is it paired that the one that pulls in the money is the one who makes a decision? I think what this is really speaking to is your view of men and women and roles in a marriage. I think it really shows how you view women, especially in a marriage, and how the power is based on the paycheck. I find that really sad and one dimensional on what a marriage can be. I quoted "decision maker", because I wasnt really sure how to say what I wanted...But, in fairness, I never said that the man has to be the decision maker..As a matter of fact, its not that easy to do all of the heavy lifting all the time..Id love it of someone took some of the load off of me...Try to run businesses and make a payroll every week, when what I directly do or dont do affects people's lives and families...Its not freaking easy!! I adore strong women..All the women in my family are strong earners and strong women...And NONE of them are married to the "yes dear" types ....I am strong enough in my own character that it wouldnt matter one bit to me...You seem to want to paint me as the type that wants them pregnant and in the kitchen...Nothing further from the truth,,, What can I say? Im a atrong and self assured guy..I have been TOTALLY independent since I was 17 years old....TOTALLY....I do what I think is right..I do all of the things that I was rasied to believe that a traditional man is supposed to do...I take care of my family,including an aging mother...Im a strong provider and an emotional rock..If that bothers you, or you feel like its demeaning to a man that doesnt posess these qualities., so be it..You are entitled to your opinion.. I sense a bit of insecurity on your part..Do you want to arm-wrestle me? It seems like you need to be overbearing and domineering..Or that you feel like perhaps you have to justify the fact that you wear the pants and your husband is a passive type..I'd also be willing to bet that you have disdain for traditional women and mock those that stay at home to raise kids and are homemakers..I dunno...Thats fine, You are certainly entitled to your opinion.. Doesnt make either one of us bad, though...... TFY
thefooloftheyear Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Then do you see women, who make less than than their male partner as "clingy" and "dependent"? nope..................................... TFY
MoreCoffee Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 I, for one, look forward to serving our new female overlords. 3
Glinda.Good Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 It seems more and more young males, mostly from the millenials, are becoming increasingly beta and clingy towards women. I keep seeing tons of posts in the breakup forum "she left me and I can't get on with my life" or "I've lost all motivation." Even worse "can I get her back?" . I don't think that feeling like life is over after a bad breakup equates to being clingy and "Beta" (whatever that means; I refute the concept) But guys need to stop giving up their man cards to women and move on and live their life like alpha males A man feeling terrible after his breakup does not equate to "giving up his man card to women." It doesn't have anything to do with women. It has to do with him, who he is and how he is responding to this situation. And the whole "Alpha male" thing - bah humbug. It means to be a leader, be confident, and have your own direction in life and not be influenced by women so easily. A woman should add to your life and be someone who you can share it with. Their job isn't to make YOU happy. From my perspective, you are so right, EXCEPT for the bolded. And of course I don't think it's gender specific; PEOPLE need to be confident, have their own direction in life, and have a partner to share life with them and NOT to be responsible for their happiness. I would say the exact same thing to women except without any alpha / beta references, or holding men responsible in any way. 2
Eggplant Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Really? Says who? You? What studies have you seen that cite these stats? I think you are really making some gross assumptions. I doubt income levels actually show a trend of such skills.If you're working 100 hours a week and have a super high-paying job, somebody else is probably cleaning your house. You're not sewing buttons back on your clothing or patching holes in them. You're not washing your clothes by hand. You're not looking under the hood of your car and trying to fix it yourself because you have the means to quickly pay somebody else to do that. Poor people have no choice in these matters. They have to do it or it doesn't get done. Your original argument seemed to argue gender tied to these skills and who should know them. Now you are arguing socio-economics. Which one is it? NO! I never said anything about who SHOULD know them based on gender. Read what I wrote first, darn it. What I am saying is that a lot of such skills are still useful to know. Bottomline, nowadays, most of these skills will be learned moreso because of desire to do so than need. One can work around if so desired. And healthy cooking is shown to be done at higher income levels than lower.This is probably true about the cooking. The people with higher incomes have the luxury of either having time or having somebody with time in the household to cook. But I think it's really important for everybody to know how to do.
RedRobin Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Again, this may or may not be a quality where you live, or with the people you know, but its what I have noticed... Its been my nature to never be dependent on anyone..This was what I thought was expected of me as a man...People were supposed to be dependent, in some ways, on me.. Where I come from, both men and women are taught never to be solely dependent on anyone either. That they each pull their weight. My parents told me when I was quite young that I'd be on my own when I was 18 and that was it... that I'd better learn a skill, and better work because me and my sis weren't going to be lounging around the house and sucking off them after that. They also taught us that relying on any one person for our survival as adults was unstable and unsustainable and not something likely to make us happy in the long term. I'm quite sure they'd do the same if they had boys, lol. I took typing classes AND shop classes AND drafting classes. My first job out of HS was as a drafter for an engineering company. I was living on my own at 18 and put myself through school. I'm a woman... as you know Id never accept the role as some rich woman's "kept" man, even though its a lot easier than breaking my ass every day...Im well off and wont ever be in that situation, but Id sooner live in a box under a bridge, then have a woman support me in a "life" sense...Thats not true of a lot of guys today...They seem content to let the woman be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride...They live their lives with their sole focus on making their wives/gf life easier so they dont lose thier deal.. Me either, and it has been a source of friction or disagreement between myself and some men I've dated. I've never been attracted to men who dangled the carrot of wanting to take 'care' of me. Or ones who said they'd never be with a woman who made more than them. I saw that as insecurity in them... not a sign of 'manhood'. Insisting on ME being dependent seemed like a power play and a sign of weakness in them. It is quite possible that more men these days find it ok to explore careers they love, that may not pay as much... just like more women are allowed to do things THEY love that happen to compete with men. And neither are being nancy boys (as men) or emasculating females (as women). 6
thefooloftheyear Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Where I come from, both men and women are taught never to be solely dependent on anyone either. That they each pull their weight. My parents told me when I was quite young that I'd be on my own when I was 18 and that was it... that I'd better learn a skill, and better work because me and my sis weren't going to be lounging around the house and sucking off them after that. They also taught us that relying on any one person for our survival as adults was unstable and unsustainable and not something likely to make us happy in the long term. I'm quite sure they'd do the same if they had boys, lol. I took typing classes AND shop classes AND drafting classes. My first job out of HS was as a drafter for an engineering company. I was living on my own at 18 and put myself through school. I'm a woman... as you know Me either, and it has been a source of friction or disagreement between myself and some men I've dated. I've never been attracted to men who dangled the carrot of wanting to take 'care' of me. Or ones who said they'd never be with a woman who made more than them. I saw that as insecurity in them... not a sign of 'manhood'. Insisting on ME being dependent seemed like a power play and a sign of weakness in them. It is quite possible that more men these days find it ok to explore careers they love, that may not pay as much... just like more women are allowed to do things THEY love that happen to compete with men. And neither are being nancy boys (as men) or emasculating females (as women). I can agree here.... I guess the only part is that it doesnt have to be a "power play" or a "carrot dangling" thing...Whats wrong with a woman knowing, in a non descript way, that her man is the type that can handle things, that can provide, that can stand on his own, etc....?? The woman could make millions and be as crafty as Norn Abram, i'd like to think any woman would find that trait to be attractive, no?? What I am seeing now is that guys are more than happy to just let their women do most or all of the heavy lifting..These guys dont seem to have that urge or desire to be the type that can be heavily counted on...Heck, if it works for both parties, then I suppose no one can say anything...Im not a woman, but I would think that is kinda lame, i dunno....It wouldnt matter to me if the other person made more than I did, that but that in and of itself doesnt make me want to just set it on cruise and let her do all of the hard work...That just doenst seem right, yet I see a lot of guys do this, and a lot of women dont mind??? And this is one last thing, but its probably important to the discussion..What if in the dynamic of this relationship, the couple decides to have a child(ren) and the woman now wants to spend some time as a SAHM? That option winds up being limited or even off the table, if the guy is not the type to carry the load...You see a lot of childless couples with this scenario, maybe its not because thats what she/they wants, but more like if they have kids, then he isnt going to be able to be counted on and they cant lose her income.. TFY Edited July 7, 2014 by thefooloftheyear
Got it Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 I quoted "decision maker", because I wasnt really sure how to say what I wanted...But, in fairness, I never said that the man has to be the decision maker..As a matter of fact, its not that easy to do all of the heavy lifting all the time..Id love it of someone took some of the load off of me...Try to run businesses and make a payroll every week, when what I directly do or dont do affects people's lives and families...Its not freaking easy!! I adore strong women..All the women in my family are strong earners and strong women...And NONE of them are married to the "yes dear" types ....I am strong enough in my own character that it wouldnt matter one bit to me...You seem to want to paint me as the type that wants them pregnant and in the kitchen...Nothing further from the truth,,, What can I say? Im a atrong and self assured guy..I have been TOTALLY independent since I was 17 years old....TOTALLY....I do what I think is right..I do all of the things that I was rasied to believe that a traditional man is supposed to do...I take care of my family,including an aging mother...Im a strong provider and an emotional rock..If that bothers you, or you feel like its demeaning to a man that doesnt posess these qualities., so be it..You are entitled to your opinion.. I sense a bit of insecurity on your part..Do you want to arm-wrestle me? It seems like you need to be overbearing and domineering..Or that you feel like perhaps you have to justify the fact that you wear the pants and your husband is a passive type..I'd also be willing to bet that you have disdain for traditional women and mock those that stay at home to raise kids and are homemakers..I dunno...Thats fine, You are certainly entitled to your opinion.. Doesnt make either one of us bad, though...... TFY Definitely not. I am addressing things that you are saying directly and either extrapolating on the point or asking clarifying questions. I find it amusing that you are assessing energies and assumptions on to me that you yourself are doing. I have no disdain for others though that has come through with you in your posts of others. Nor have I said my husband is passive, you said that. Actually if you reread my posts you will see that I have stated to the contrary. But you speak very black and white against men that don't meet your criteria of a man and those that do not fit the traditional stereotype. So, in other words, hello pot. Disdain and mock are two strong words. I do not feel I do either. Do you disdain men who are passive and mock those that are different? And finally, if what you said about me was true then, yes, it would make me bad. 1
Got it Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 nope..................................... TFY Okay, but you said this, "Its been my nature to never be dependent on anyone..This was what I thought was expected of me as a man...People were supposed to be dependent, in some ways, on me.. Id never accept the role as some rich woman's "kept" man, even though its a lot easier than breaking my ass every day...Im well off and wont ever be in that situation, but Id sooner live in a box under a bridge, then have a woman support me in a "life" sense...Thats not true of a lot of guys today...They seem content to let the woman be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride...They live their lives with their sole focus on making their wives/gf life easier so they dont lose thier deal.. Im not criticizing it..Just curious how guys are able to accept the role of the clingy and dependent type...*shrug*.." So then you believe in a gender double standard? It is okay to be a female and "seem content to let the woman [man] be the heavy, while they just come along for the ride . . . how guy [gals] are able to accept the role of the clingy and dependent type ..." Why is okay and acceptable for a woman to take the passive role and let the man lead, at least financially and also be the "heavy hitter" when it comes to decisions but if roles are reversed the guy is clingy and dependent? It sounds like woman are expected to bring less to the table but financially and from a decision sense. My view of marriage, is the two are equal partners. They utilize each other's strengths, hopefully balance out their areas of opportunity/weaknesses and make a stronger united front. For example, my husband and I are both fairly dominant/assertive personalities. So we have found that we take turn being the "bad" cop in situations. When we need to push back on a vendor, etc. we pause a beat to see who is leading the charge and one will take it and the other plays supporting role. Some times there is a "good" cop at play as well, sometimes a neutral party. It is an interesting dynamic we have worked out but is greatly enjoyable instead of being one sided and one always the heavy.
Got it Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 I can agree here.... I guess the only part is that it doesnt have to be a "power play" or a "carrot dangling" thing...Whats wrong with a woman knowing, in a non descript way, that her man is the type that can handle things, that can provide, that can stand on his own, etc....?? The woman could make millions and be as crafty as Norn Abram, i'd like to think any woman would find that trait to be attractive, no?? What I am seeing now is that guys are more than happy to just let their women do most or all of the heavy lifting..These guys dont seem to have that urge or desire to be the type that can be heavily counted on...Heck, if it works for both parties, then I suppose no one can say anything...Im not a woman, but I would think that is kinda lame, i dunno....It wouldnt matter to me if the other person made more than I did, that but that in and of itself doesnt make me want to just set it on cruise and let her do all of the hard work...That just doenst seem right, yet I see a lot of guys do this, and a lot of women dont mind??? And this is one last thing, but its probably important to the discussion..What if in the dynamic of this relationship, the couple decides to have a child(ren) and the woman now wants to spend some time as a SAHM? That option winds up being limited or even off the table, if the guy is not the type to carry the load...You see a lot of childless couples with this scenario, maybe its not because thats what she/they wants, but more like if they have kids, then he isnt going to be able to be counted on and they cant lose her income.. TFY Ugh, again what if you reverse the roles? What is wrong with a man knowing, that no matter how successful he is he has a wife that can take the ball and run with it if needed and can financially support the family as well? Wouldn't that be found to be an attractive trait? And if they have a family, what if the guy is a SAHD? Why isn't it an option that both genders can be there to nurture and raise the kids? Why do you see raising children as purely the female's role? Outside of breast feeding and birthing the children, there is nothing else tied to raising children that is solely a female attribute or ability. Why are things seen as so one dimensional? 2
thefooloftheyear Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Ugh, again what if you reverse the roles? What is wrong with a man knowing, that no matter how successful he is he has a wife that can take the ball and run with it if needed and can financially support the family as well? Wouldn't that be found to be an attractive trait? Nothing is wrong with that.... And if they have a family, what if the guy is a SAHD? Why isn't it an option that both genders can be there to nurture and raise the kids? Why do you see raising children as purely the female's role? Outside of breast feeding and birthing the children, there is nothing else tied to raising children that is solely a female attribute or ability. Why are things seen as so one dimensional? I personally dont think that a dad is better than a mom in the early stages of childrearing, but thats my opinion and its shared by probably the majority of people and experts alike...And I have an opinion on people that have substantial means dumping little tiny infants in daycare centers so that they can make payments on the Benz and the house at the shore...Lets just say its not favorable... As you already know, I am a parent..And was/is heavily involved with the rearing of my child..So I am NOT saying its purely a female role..No one is saying they are one dimensional..But at the end of the day, what happens if the woman wants to be the SAHM? Then what? TFY Edited July 7, 2014 by thefooloftheyear
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