Naive or Insecure?

[lolablue17]

I'd have to disagree that the past isn't as important.

 

If you two are going to try and work things out, you cannot rug sweep the past away. As a betrayed spouse, you will probably want to know a lot of what went on for a number of reasons. Not only will it help you to identify current behavior that might be following old bad habits, but it will hold your wife accountable as she won't be allowed to pretend those actions from her past didn't happen.

 

Generally I agree with you. But in his case, everything happened in the past was their way of life with his consent. I have a feeling that If he insist digging in the past he will get nothing but crisis and war.

 

Of course if it was me I wouldn't leave the past out of the equation.

[ThatMan]

Consent?

It sounds more like a history with reluctant consent which GreySpace has begun changing into empowerment through personal considerations. The unhealthy boundaries are an issue with the past, present, and probably the future. What has been described to us is an ongoing issue and not a previous way of life.

[RightThere]

Generally I agree with you. But in his case, everything happened in the past was their way of life with his consent. I have a feeling that If he insist digging in the past he will get nothing but crisis and war.

 

Of course if it was me I wouldn't leave the past out of the equation.

 

Sorry, but that is way off base. My situation is not that different from the OP and although he turned a bit of a blind eye to what was going on, in no way did he ever consent to his wife @#$%ing other guys.

 

He gave her way too much freedom and unaccountability, but infidelity was not something he consented to.

 

She said "I want to go out tonight and stay out late."

His actions said "OK"

She never once said "I'm going to start sleeping with other people" because I'm sure he would have had a different response than "OK".

[Realist3]

Sorry, but that is way off base. My situation is not that different from the OP and although he turned a bit of a blind eye to what was going on, in no way did he ever consent to his wife @#$%ing other guys.

 

He gave her way too much freedom and unaccountability, but infidelity was not something he consented to.

 

She said "I want to go out tonight and stay out late."

His actions said "OK"

She never once said "I'm going to start sleeping with other people" because I'm sure he would have had a different response than "OK".

 

Read this statement again. He knew about it.

 

Remember, she actively seeks male friends on FB and Tango.

 

If you know your wife is actively seeking out male friends online and do nothing about it, you are in every sense condoning this behavior.

[fellini]

At what point in the OPs post did you read that he said his wife was screwing other men.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but that is way off base. My situation is not that different from the OP and although he turned a bit of a blind eye to what was going on, in no way did he ever consent to his wife @#$%ing other guys.

 

He gave her way too much freedom and unaccountability, but infidelity was not something he consented to.

 

She said "I want to go out tonight and stay out late."

His actions said "OK"

She never once said "I'm going to start sleeping with other people" because I'm sure he would have had a different response than "OK".

[ThatMan]

At what point in the OPs post did you read that he said his wife was screwing other men.

What part of her engaging in cybersex can't you understand?

 

This is basically identical to phonesex with the added bonus of live video with maybe text, audio, or all three. I know that you grapple with the idea of how some might consider kissing other women an unfaithful act. But you do not need a penis inside a vagina for some lines to be crossed. It's not that hard to figure out.

 

You're right that we aren't in a position to understand whether or not she's had an affair. What's perhaps more significant are the absence of healthy boundaries. She's crossing so many distinct lines which in and of itself is really the crux of the problem, opposed to whether or not we can guess for sure if she truly had an affair as of yet. GreySpace has to learn to advocate for himself while she needs to stop behaving as a single woman throughout her marriage.

Edited April 17, 2014 by ThatMan
phone

[fellini]

What part of her engaging in cybersex can't you understand?

 

This is basically identical to phonesex with the added bonus of live video with maybe text, audio, or all three. I know that you grapple with the idea of how some might consider kissing other women an unfaithful act. But you do not need a penis inside a vagina for some lines to be crossed. It's not that hard to figure out.

 

You're right that we aren't in a position to understand whether or not she's had an affair. What's perhaps more significant are the absence of healthy boundaries. She's crossing so many distinct lines which in and of itself is really the crux of the problem, opposed to whether or not we can guess for sure if she truly had an affair as of yet. GreySpace has to learn to advocate for himself while she needs to stop behaving as a single woman throughout her marriage.

 

I think you need to be fair and provide themproper context when accusing a poster ofmthings you have read in LS.

 

1. I dont grapple with with someone kissing another not her S. In this case the woman in question kissed another woman in the hopes of both pleasing and turning on her husband.

So she was NOT IMO being unfaithful, but rather, the opposite. That it backfired on her and she learned not to do that again is clear. So no, I dont grapple with these issues.

 

2. Now you are in here saying this woman online is EQUIVALENT to having physical intercourse with men: your words, not men "she was screwing"

 

3. Weird thing is in the other thread about the kissing woman YOU TOTALLY DEFENDED HER HUSBANDS CONSUMPTION OF LESBIAN PORN FOR JACKING OFF BUT YOU COME IN HERE AND CLAIM THIS WOMAN MASTURBATING ONLINE IS HAVING SEX AND THEREFORE INFIDELITY. WOW. IN both cases the spouses are aware of the activity online yet you claim one is consenting And the other is not.

[Try]

At what point in the OPs post did you read that he said his wife was screwing other men.

At the point in post #5 of this thread where that OP stated that "Even though I can't prove it, I also believe it's very likely she has cheated on me".

[Try]

I think I want to get some proof that she did cheat. Even though she has already compromised our marriage with her actions, I still want to know for sure.

Studies show that over 80% of all affairs go undetected. Of the remaining less that 20% almost none get more proof than what you have already. Just knowing that their wife stayed until the early morning alone with the other man is usually considered proof enough by most people, as getting a photo of them in the act of sex or getting an eye witness account is almost impossible to get. You have at least that, yet by demanding more proof you are giving yourself an excuse to delaying taking action, which is the story of your marraige.

 

Your wife has so little respect for you and the normal boundaries of marriage, as she clearly carries on her affairs, that she not only regularly stays out with other men until 6 am, but she even refuses to tell you their names. I can almost hear the other men laughing when your wife assures them that they do not have to worry about the their wives finding out, since your wife has refused to tell her husband so much as their names. Husbands and wives know each other's friends, with affair partners being the only ones that they try to keep secret. If one of my friend's wives came home at 6:00am and told him that she was with another man that she refused to identify, and continued to do this on a regular basis, not only would my friend file for divorce, but I could not imagine the vast majority of their family and friends not support my friend in the divorce. I am sorry but common sense tells you that married women do not do this with other men unless they are cheating.

 

You do not need any more evidence to file for divorce. Sure call your wife's ex-friend and try to learn more, but at this point more proof is not needed for you to take action. Demanding 100% proof of what you know to be true already is just you looking to avoid doing what you do not want to really do. If you wait for more proof to take action, at least be honest with yourself, that although you do not like her cheating, you are not in fact willing to leave her for it.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Try

[fellini]

Studies show that over 80% of all affairs go undetected. Of the remaining less that 20% almost none get more proof than what you have already. Just knowing that their wife stayed until the early morning alone with the other man is usually considered proof enough by most people, as getting a photo of them in the act of sex or getting an eye witness account is almost impossible to get. You have at least that, yet by demanding more proof you are giving yourself an excuse to delaying taking action, which is the story of your marraige.

 

Your wife has so little respect for you and the normal boundaries of marriage, as she clearly carries on her affairs, that she not only regularly stays out with other men until 6 am, but she even refuses to tell you their names. I can almost hear the other men laughing when your wife assures them that they do not have to worry about the their wives finding out, since your wife has refused to tell her husband so much as their names. Husbands and wives know each other's friends, with affair partners being the only ones that they try to keep secret. If one of my friend's wives came home at 6:00am and told him that she was with another man that she refused to identify, and continued to do this on a regular basis, not only would my friend file for divorce, but I could not imagine the vast majority of their family and friends not support my friend in the divorce. I am sorry but common sense tells you that married women do not do this with other men unless they are cheating.

 

You do not need any more evidence to file for divorce. Sure call your wife's ex-friend and try to learn more, but at this point more proof is not needed for you to take action. Demanding 100% proof of what you know to be true already is just you looking to avoid doing what you do not want to really do. If you wait for more proof to take action, at least be honest with yourself, that although you do not like her cheating, you are not in fact willing to leave her for it.

 

This is typical way in LS that stats get thrown around. If 25% (for example) of marriages suffer some form of infidelity, that means 75% do not. If 80% of all affairs go undetected, that makes something like 100% of marriages are a lie, and the next 5% are owed to the pot.

 

THE REAL QUOTE on studies is this:

 

Polls show that 90% of married people disapprove of extramarital relationships. Statistics from a recent National survey indicate that

15% of wives and 25% of husbands

have engaged in extramarital sex by the age of 40. When emotional affairs are factored in, these numbers jump by an additional 20%. Author of The Monogamy Myth, Peggy Vaughn has suggested that as many as

60% of husbands and 40% of wives will have

an extramarital affair of some type

during the course of their marriage

.

 

If you consider that not all of these people cited by Vaughn and others cheat on each other,

some experts claim that as many as 80% of all marriages are affected by infidelity at one time or another

.

Some of these affairs go undetected

and yet

less than 65%

of the discovered affairs typically end in divorce. This leaves a large number of marriages that do recover in one form or another.

 

But here is a stat for you:

 

80% of those who divorce during an affair regret the decision.

 

 

Your argument is extremely dangerous and irresponsible:

1: you are promoting your opinion as solid fact based on statistics (you conflate subjective feelings with objectivity)

2: you invent statistics, but worse, overly inflated statistics some becomes 80% Not much margin of error in that stat.

3: you cannot prove he cheated, nor has he, he suspects, but using statistics as a mask, you attempt to invert the moral position "innocent until proven guilty" into "guilty until proven innocent" because your invented 80% is just impossible to imagine she is not.

 

On the positive, unlike the previous poster, you are not trying to argue that cybersex is actually F*@#"$ing a man as he tried to argue.

Edited April 18, 2014 by fellini

[Try]

This is typical way in LS that stats get thrown around. If 25% (for example) of marriages suffer some form of infidelity, that means 75% do not. If 80% of all affairs go undetected, that makes something like 100% of marriages are a lie, and the next 5% are owed to the pot.

While trying to sound superior in refuting my stat, your logic makes absolutely no sense. You are incorrectly applying the 80% of affairs going undetected statistic to the 75% of marriages that did not suffer from infidelity figure, which is why you feel that there is 5% “owed to the pot”. The 80% going undetected has nothing to do with the 75% that did not cheat. What you clearly do not understand is that of the 25% that do cheat (many have cheated multiple times), 80% of their affairs going undetected. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[fellini]

Nice try, but since you continue to hold onto your idea tha 80% of affairs go undetected (which is funny because that means the vast majority of affairs never see the light of day except for social scientists)

 

Since you are clearly an expert in statistical analysis kindly provide us here with your sources. A source that claims that 80% of infidelity goes undetected.

 

I have already quoted mine, and your 80% was called "some" in that quote, so no, I know how stats work.and worse you still cling to your idea that you believe this OP is cheating without a shadow of a doubt.

 

So there are, for you only two options: EITHER SHE IS cheating and he will eventually discover or she is in your ficticious 80% - she is still cheating but it is undetected.

 

You have no problem telling a complete stranger that his spouse is a statistical slut.

 

Call me traditional or deceived, but I don't like the idea of telling someone that in no uncertain terms their S is a wayward and its time to call a lawyer.

 

Your position reminds me of old joke. 90% of men cheat on their spouses in America. The other 10% cheat on them in Europe.

 

 

 

 

While trying to sound superior in refuting my stat, your logic makes absolutely no sense. You are incorrectly applying the 80% of affairs going undetected statistic to the 75% of marriages that did not suffer from infidelity figure, which is why you feel that there is 5% “owed to the pot”. The 80% going undetected has nothing to do with the 75% that did not cheat. What you clearly do not understand is that of the 25% that do cheat (many have cheated multiple times), 80% of their affairs going undetected. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Edited April 19, 2014 by fellini

[Appreciate]

Fellini, your advice needs a lot of help.

 

A married woman should not be staying out until 3am at other men's houses. The burden of proof is on the OP to prove she's not cheating, since all the circumstantial evidence is there. We're not in a court of law, we're in a forum of common sense.

 

OP, there are many ways to determine whether your wife is cheating. And you should. Like, last week. You need to do some better detective work -- phone, emails, put a VAR in her car (cheaters love to call their lovers in their cars) -- this kind of stuff. Get some hard evidence. Most likely your wife is playing you for a fool.

[fellini]

We have already discussed AT LENGTH the issue of the wife of the OP going out at night. the WIFE is not here in LS so we cannot address HER ISSUES.

 

We can however, and have been however, addressing the laid back issues of the OP. What can you say to an OP who stands by those nights while his S goes out to party and then comes into a Forum to ask what he should do about it, and worse, if he should even be worried.

 

If you want to come into a forum this late, and read ONE post by me and not bother to read the entire thread, that's fine. My post is related to other posts. So I BEG TO DIFFER THAT MY ADVICE NEEDS HELP.

 

LOL. I love this idea: the burden of proof is on HER to prove she is NOT cheating. What do you suggest, a pap smear with hubby? She should do a poly? Those sound to me like things the OP has to decide, and demand them. The onus is on the OP to do something about his suspicions. She has already declared innocent. Unless she comes in here crying about how she is going out with friends and her jealous husband is on her case you can't really do much about her can you.

 

That to me is common sense. Not jumping to conclusions.

 

If you cared to read anything in this thread you will see that repeatedly it has been said, by me, and others:

 

IS SHE SCREWING OTHER MEN: We cannot know - we don't have enough to go on.

IS SHE NOT SCREWING OTHER MEN: We cannot know - we don't have enough to go on.

 

And I already made my ADVICE very CLEAR:

 

To me if he cannot stop her from going out then he should leave her.

He doesn't have to know to act, he can ask for more respect NOW without knowing and leave her if she insists on continuing.

 

I hope you don't have a huge issue with that advice, I hope it fits into your idea of common sense.

 

 

 

 

Fellini, your advice needs a lot of help.

 

A married woman should not be staying out until 3am at other men's houses. The burden of proof is on the OP to prove she's not cheating, since all the circumstantial evidence is there. We're not in a court of law, we're in a forum of common sense.

 

OP, there are many ways to determine whether your wife is cheating. And you should. Like, last week. You need to do some better detective work -- phone, emails, put a VAR in her car (cheaters love to call their lovers in their cars) -- this kind of stuff. Get some hard evidence. Most likely your wife is playing you for a fool.

Edited April 19, 2014 by fellini

[Appreciate]

No, I don't think he should leave her if he can't stop her from going out. He should do a 180 and start focusing on himself while preparing for a possible separation from his wife. He needs to find his balls, because his wife seems to have them in her hands. I think he should give her a hard ultimatum and stick to it. He should not be asking for respect, he needs to state clearly what is needs are, that he wants a better relationship but will no longer tolerate her hanging out with guys that way she is doing. Who is more important, her husband or her "friend"? He needs to see how she reacts.

 

If he's interested in continuing with his wife, I think he should get smart and find out if she's cheating. He should find out for himself. She already has a history of cheating (cyber sex) and she's carrying on with other men. Common sense and experience spells out that she is c-h-e-a-t-i-n-g. There is enough to go on for him to assume she is cheating and to start a real investigation. Every day he continues to be dragged along is another day he loses his self-respect.

[Cpt]

Guys who cares about her comings and goings, or any of that "acting on suspicion" stuff? She has cheated already; whether it was cyber, emotionaly or physically doesn't matter. She cheated, and she is being very disrespectful.

 

I have to disagree with the vast majority of posters in this thread regarding this particular case, albeit my adoration and respect for a lot of you.

 

OP, you're being treated with disrespect. Until you address these issues with serious actions, you will not get serious responses from your WW. You don't need proof of any physical cheating. I doubt anyone in this board would be ok with their spouse cyber cheating, so it should not be taken so lightly.

 

Now is the time to make things on your terms. As I said before, file for D.

 

I repeat again that it will serve two purposes. If she accepts, you know that you meant nothing to her. Or she will see that she is ruining her marriage and take serious measures to fix this IF she truly loves you.

 

Does my advice sound controlling and barbaric? Maybe, but drastic situation calls for drastic measures.

 

Fellini I will check out that 17min video when I get a chance.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Cpt

[BHsigh]

Guys who cares about her comings and goings, or any of that "acting on suspicion" stuff? She has cheated already; whether it was cyber, emotionaly or physically doesn't matter. She cheated, and she is being very disrespectful.

 

I have to disagree with the vast majority of posters in this thread regarding this particular case, albeit my adoration and respect for a lot of you.

 

OP, you're being treated with disrespect. Until you address these issues with serious actions, you will not get serious responses from your WW. You don't need proof of any physical cheating. I doubt anyone in this board would be ok with their spouse cyber cheating, so it should not be taken so lightly.

 

Now is the time to make things on your terms. As I said before, file for D.

 

I repeat again that it will serve two purposes. If she accepts, you know that you meant nothing to her. Or she will see that she is ruining her marriage and take serious measures to fix this IF she truly loves you.

 

Does my advice sound controlling and barbaric? Maybe, but drastic situation calls for drastic measures.

 

Fellini I will check out that 17min video when I get a chance.

 

I have to agree wit Cpt here, no matter what kind of cheating she did, she still cheated and OP needs to act, the next steps are up to OP.

 

I personally would want to pursue evidence of a physical affair, but filing for divorce or doing the 180 are both logical choices as well.

 

OP, it's time to act, start with key loggers, VARS etc if you're looking for proof, or go 180 immediately.

[Friskyone4u]

This seems silly all of us statistically debating the odds of her cheating or what kind. The question is how many of us responding here would put up with this behavior from our spouse and sit there quietly while it continues to go on and repeat itself without questioning or confronting anything? My guess us very few if anyone would do absolutely nothing.

To me this situation sounds almost too unbelievable to be true and until the OP decides to do something, whatever that might be, what good is any more advice. I am not trying to be hard on him, but how do you help someone who is for some reason that we do not know paralyzed into denial or not even enough curiosity to find out.

Lets hear from him. If he does not respond or do anything suggested, then he can just live with it and to answer his question he must simply be naive

[Try]

Nice try, but since you continue to hold onto your idea tha 80% of affairs go undetected (which is funny because that means the vast majority of affairs never see the light of day except for social scientists)

 

Since you are clearly an expert in statistical analysis kindly provide us here with your sources. A source that claims that 80% of infidelity goes undetected.

According to the MSNBC.com/iVillage Lust, Love & Loyalty survey, “Ironically, while we tend to overestimate cheating in society, we are often blind to it in our own lives. If your partner is cheating, chances are, you have no idea.

 

Six in 10 cheaters believe they totally got away with their affair and another one in 10 felt their partner was suspicious, but never found out for sure.” Six in 10 plus one in 10 equals 70%. Although I was off by 10% in remembering it at 80% instead of 70%, that does not in any way take away from the point that I was making, that yes the “vast majority of affairs never see the light of day”.

 

The study actually goes on to also supports my statement that “almost none get more proof than what you have already” when it states “Few cheaters — only 2 percent — were busted in the act. And even when confronted with a partner's suspicions, only 6 percent of both men and women confessed to having an affair.” Below is a link:

Cheating hearts: Who's doing it and why - Health - Sexual health | NBC News

Edited April 19, 2014 by Try

[GreySpace]

So, things are more serious than I suspected. I found out some really disturbing things that I prefer not to share. At this point, I only have one thing on my mind and that's my child. My feelings are secondary right now. It is my opinion that my wife needs some serious mental help and it's my job to keep things as tranquil as possible at home. I really do love her as a friend and for the sake of our child I want to make sure she is ok. Over the last week I started to have no desire to be with her on a sexual level. I slept in jeans last night. Like I said, I want things calm in our home for the sake of our child.

 

I know some of you will come on here telling me I need to leave and file for divorce and wonder how I can stay there right now. I have my reasons and time is needed to sort things out. Everything needs to be planned with care. I believe I'm thinking with a clear head.

[JourneyLady]

You're probably afraid of confrontation, but this stuff IS bothering you and is a bad sign.

 

Simply put her on notice that if she continues to do this, you consider this an "open marriage" where you can both spend time with the opposite sex alone... Then either do so, or make her think you're doing so. See what happens. If she changes her behavior, then you can go forth and work on the marriage.

 

If not, start the filing process and tell her you decided you don't *want* an open marriage and want to find someone else who doesn't either... So she's going to have to let you go.

 

Document everything, unless your state is no-fault, in which case don't bother.

Also google marriage builders and read their books but stay out of the forums - they can be very harsh in there.

 

As a woman who had an online affair (ex-hubs had a real one), I am speaking from experience. These actions of hers are causing resentment and will eventually make the marriage fail one way or another. Better sooner than later for BOTH of you - so get it straightened out as early as possible.

[GreySpace]

You're probably afraid of confrontation, but this stuff IS bothering you and is a bad sign.

 

Simply put her on notice that if she continues to do this, you consider this an "open marriage" where you can both spend time with the opposite sex alone... Then either do so, or make her think you're doing so. See what happens. If she changes her behavior, then you can go forth and work on the marriage.

 

If not, start the filing process and tell her you decided you don't *want* an open marriage and want to find someone else who doesn't either... So she's going to have to let you go.

 

Document everything, unless your state is no-fault, in which case don't bother.

Also google marriage builders and read their books but stay out of the forums - they can be very harsh in there.

 

As a woman who had an online affair (ex-hubs had a real one), I am speaking from experience. These actions of hers are causing resentment and will eventually make the marriage fail one way or another. Better sooner than later for BOTH of you - so get it straightened out as early as possible.

 

I understand where you are coming from. But, like I said, some very disturbing events have occurred that go beyond just cheating. My mind is very clear right now. I'm able to step outside the situation and think in an emotionless state. My actions need to be completely thought out or it can get ugly. Her emotions are in a chaotic state and hasty actions could have very bad consequences.

[Friskyone4u]

the OP has obviously discovered his wife is cheating but there is more to the story and for his own reasons he wants to keep it to himself. Since no one but him knows really what is going on, and he knows a lot more now, it is silly to keep offering any more advice since only he has the knowledge of the situation. I can't see how any more speculation is meaningful.

Everyone had it right. It was ridiculous what she was doing. At this point, he either had to take action or share with the forum what is going on if he wants more advice.

Wife is cheater. He lives with it for now

[RightThere]

I understand where you are coming from. But, like I said, some very disturbing events have occurred that go beyond just cheating. My mind is very clear right now. I'm able to step outside the situation and think in an emotionless state. My actions need to be completely thought out or it can get ugly. Her emotions are in a chaotic state and hasty actions could have very bad consequences.

 

You probably feel like what you've discovered is totally unique and something you need to keep hidden. Don't feel like you're on an island by yourself.

 

I would say the more you can share, the more help you'll be able to get.

 

But that's obviously a choice and only you can make that.