TB Rhine Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 There's a storyline in the current season of the TV show 'Shameless' (American version) that will illustrate the nice guy/dangerous jerk dichotomy for you perfectly. "Nice guys" (in the pop cultural parlance) are guys who believe being sweet, offering to do things for a girl or offering help if she seems to need it, and making romantic gestures (flowers, cute little gifts) are the way to a woman's heart. They believe this because that is what pop culture and their mom's advice leads them to believe, and because on some level this is even what some women think they want. They don't understand that physical attraction, rather than personality, basically counts for everything, and that failing that, drama/danger/excitement/whatever you want to call it is the average woman's drug of choice, rather than being sweeted to sweetly by a sweetly sweet guy. Link to post Share on other sites
mortensorchid Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I have also considered this factor as well. It seems that there are no truly "nice guys" anymore. The ones who are bad boys don't always have to get into fist fights, throw chairs through walls and call for bail money, they just have to be some kind of an a****** to others (not just women). The ones who are nice just seem to be weak wimps who are uninterested. I also think that a gender change has occurred that we were not ready for. Women became more aggressive and men became softer, both in personal and professional life. Women want more exciting, so do men, which is why we go for the wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
topaMAXX Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I have also considered this factor as well. It seems that there are no truly "nice guys" anymore. The ones who are bad boys don't always have to get into fist fights, throw chairs through walls and call for bail money, they just have to be some kind of an a****** to others (not just women). The ones who are nice just seem to be weak wimps who are uninterested. I also think that a gender change has occurred that we were not ready for. Women became more aggressive and men became softer, both in personal and professional life. Women want more exciting, so do men, which is why we go for the wrong. I'm a go-getter and very ambitious. I have a strong personality and get in trouble at work at times for being "insensitive" and overbearing at times. I am not attracted to aggressive women because I am aggressive. I believe that any woman that is aggressive will have trouble attracting aggressive men because, in this case, opposites attract. One of my problems is that most women try to be aggressive (even if they are not). It is difficult to a find woman these days that actually acts like a woman. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MixedUpChick Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 "Nice guys" (in the pop cultural parlance) are guys who believe being sweet, offering to do things for a girl or offering help if she seems to need it, and making romantic gestures (flowers, cute little gifts) are the way to a woman's heart. They believe this because that is what pop culture and their mom's advice leads them to believe, and because on some level this is even what some women think they want. They don't understand that physical attraction, rather than personality, basically counts for everything, and that failing that, drama/danger/excitement/whatever you want to call it is the average woman's drug of choice, rather than being sweeted to sweetly by a sweetly sweet guy. Apparently the reason this doesn't work on me, is because I'm an above average woman I'm only attracted to & only interested in a so-called "nice guy". Give me a good looking guy who's got the drama/danger/excitement thing going on & I'll walk away, every time. Link to post Share on other sites
Silver93 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I would consider myself to be a 'nice guy'. I am also shy which is why girls never seem to be interested in me. I am 20 and it does get me down sometimes when I don't seem to attract girls but I will never change my nice ways just to get a girl. I would open doors for my girl, ask her about her day, cheer her up when she's down, put her before myself and I think that is the way it should be. I am not a doormat, I just believe women deserve the utmost respect. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Do_The_Herp Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) I have also considered this factor as well. It seems that there are no truly "nice guys" anymore. The ones who are bad boys don't always have to get into fist fights, throw chairs through walls and call for bail money, they just have to be some kind of an a****** to others (not just women). The ones who are nice just seem to be weak wimps who are uninterested. I also think that a gender change has occurred that we were not ready for. Women became more aggressive and men became softer, both in personal and professional life. Women want more exciting, so do men, which is why we go for the wrong. If you don't have to get into fists fists or throw chairs through walls, what exactly is the middle ground? I don't understand. I'd never allow someone to try to take advantage of me. Is that all it boils down to? Having a back bone to say "what the **** are you doing/saying?!" when a girl tries to "play" you? Because I don't "play games". When people make these generalized statements, they add some sort of intangible mythicality to the whole "nice guy/bad boy" dichotomy that is not necessary, and it's annoying. I'd like to specifically know how men are acting softer in general, both professionally and/or personally. Edited April 7, 2014 by Do_The_Herp Link to post Share on other sites
TB Rhine Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I think you have to look at it from the guys' point of view. Imagine that you're shy, and you've spent your whole life being told that relationships/romance work in a certain way. So, over time, you're able to build up your confidence a little and start putting yourself out there. And you fail. Again. And again. And AGAIN. Meanwhile, the seemingly nice girl-next-door that you have a particular crush on, hooks up with a dude who just got outta jail, can't hold a job, and is insanely jealous and controlling (will scream at her for an hour when she gets home if he happens by and sees you talking to her, etc.) What's a guy to make of this? And, once it happens for the fourth or fifth time, how is he NOT going to start to develop some... unflattering... attitudes about women? And, lo and behold, you have this whole "nice guy/jerk" mentality floating around out there... a ready-made philosophy that perfectly explains what this guy has been experiencing (whether it happens to be an accurate explanation or not). It's like religious folks who target lonely people and recovering addicts and whatnot and offer them acceptance in exchange for being brought into the fold. Not only does he get an explanation, as well as an object to direct his anger and frustration at, but he gets the cold comfort of solidarity with all the other underappreciated "nice guys" out there. Essentially, I think these guys are recognizing something real and taking the wrong lesson from it. The fact is that a man's character has absolutely NOTHING to do with how attractive he is to the opposite sex. He can get sex by demonstrating worthiness as a provider, and he can even get love (or at least infatuation) by being physically attractive and/or demonstrating a panoply of stereotypical masculine traits -- aggressiveness, decisiveness, physicality, aloofness, etc. -- but he never gets a chance to develop these traits, because he's too busy trying to demonstrate to women what a GREAT GUY he is, and how much he RESPECTS them, and sees them as EQUALS, etc. He's trying to be the sensitive modern man that pop culture and feminist rhetoric leads him to believe he's supposed to be, and will simultaneously mock him for being if he ever manages to attain it. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
elevateiam Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I think you have to look at it from the guys' point of view. Imagine that you're shy, and you've spent your whole life being told that relationships/romance work in a certain way. So, over time, you're able to build up your confidence a little and start putting yourself out there. And you fail. Again. And again. And AGAIN. Meanwhile, the seemingly nice girl-next-door that you have a particular crush on, hooks up with a dude who just got outta jail, can't hold a job, and is insanely jealous and controlling (will scream at her for an hour when she gets home if he happens by and sees you talking to her, etc.) What's a guy to make of this? And, once it happens for the fourth or fifth time, how is he NOT going to start to develop some... unflattering... attitudes about women? And, lo and behold, you have this whole "nice guy/jerk" mentality floating around out there... a ready-made philosophy that perfectly explains what this guy has been experiencing (whether it happens to be an accurate explanation or not). It's like religious folks who target lonely people and recovering addicts and whatnot and offer them acceptance in exchange for being brought into the fold. Not only does he get an explanation, as well as an object to direct his anger and frustration at, but he gets the cold comfort of solidarity with all the other underappreciated "nice guys" out there. Essentially, I think these guys are recognizing something real and taking the wrong lesson from it. The fact is that a man's character has absolutely NOTHING to do with how attractive he is to the opposite sex. He can get sex by demonstrating worthiness as a provider, and he can even get love (or at least infatuation) by being physically attractive and/or demonstrating a panoply of stereotypical masculine traits -- aggressiveness, decisiveness, physicality, aloofness, etc. -- but he never gets a chance to develop these traits, because he's too busy trying to demonstrate to women what a GREAT GUY he is, and how much he RESPECTS them, and sees them as EQUALS, etc. He's trying to be the sensitive modern man that pop culture and feminist rhetoric leads him to believe he's supposed to be, and will simultaneously mock him for being if he ever manages to attain it. i love all of this 2 Link to post Share on other sites
MixedUpChick Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I think you have to look at it from the guys' point of view. Imagine that you're shy, and you've spent your whole life being told that relationships/romance work in a certain way. So, over time, you're able to build up your confidence a little and start putting yourself out there. And you fail. Again. And again. And AGAIN. Meanwhile, the seemingly nice girl-next-door that you have a particular crush on, hooks up with a dude who just got outta jail, can't hold a job, and is insanely jealous and controlling (will scream at her for an hour when she gets home if he happens by and sees you talking to her, etc.) What's a guy to make of this? And, once it happens for the fourth or fifth time, how is he NOT going to start to develop some... unflattering... attitudes about women? What you SHOULD make of this, is that you're pining after the wrong girls. It seems obvious that the girls/women you're falling for are rather... um... stupid - and you don't want a stupid girl, right? So look around & start noticing the intelligent women who aren't interested in this kind of man. There are many MANY of us out there who only want NICE/sensitive/kind men & have no interest whatsoever in the bad boy/jerks you described. Look around guys, we're out there. You're just not looking in the right direction. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
SJC2008 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) When you struggle with something you seek answers. When it comes to dating, men who struggle often are "fed" the nice guy theory. It's mostly online as I've never heard much of in IRL. I bought into some of it but not all of it. As I've said before there are tons of relationship dynamics but the popular ones are "nice guys finish last" and "women like bad boys". I'm a very good natured man and I am nice but I'm what they call the wear your heart on your sleeve type. If I'm upset you're gonna know it and if you're wrong I will call you out on your bs. That's not to say I'm confrontational, I'm not. But once I reach my limit you're gonna know it whether you're a friend, coworker or someone I'm dating. Edited April 8, 2014 by SJC2008 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Larry56 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 There are three categories of "Guys" Nice Guys: Doormats, too willing to please, don't have a spine, try to be a girls "friend" first, don't have standards, let women walk all over them etc. Bad Guys: Arrogant jerks who only think about themselves, cocky, deluded, insane but confident, are pushy, . Good Guys: Guys who are genuine, have manners, high-standards, let people know when they cross the line, willing to walk away because of their standards - Are gentleman, leaders, confident, know how to please a women in the bedroom, intellectually and emotionally. Bad guys are more attractive then Nice guys, Good guys on the other hand are more desirable in the long-term then Bad guys. It's just that most of the "Good Guys" are taken and don't stand out as much as the bad guys. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
GravityMan Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 There is a difference between a nice guy and a "nice" guy. The former is a great thing to have, many women like it. Especially when the guy is also fun, self-confident, has his own opinions and core guiding principles, and stands up for himself. The latter...not so great. Any perceptive person can usually quickly sense whether a guy is genuinely nice or a "nice guy" (or neither). 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Revolver Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 TopAmax is right. Bad boys tend to be good looking, very popular, and have great charisma. That's why they get away with being "bad". Link to post Share on other sites
atlg8r Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I think it's when a guy has no other personality trait other than 'nice' that women tune out. I agree with this. Some guys seem to think if they dote over a woman and do everything for her, that's all it takes. You have to be well-rounded. Have your own life, but make room for her to join in some. If your entire life is her, then yeah, that's obnoxious. Also, some guys are sickeningly nice (like a doormat) to the object of their affections, but it's just to try to "get the girl." My fiance is incredibly kind to me. He communicates frequently, does nice things for me (as simple as just offering to get me stuff when he goes in the kitchen or giving me a little foot rub after a bad day at work - not necessarily $$$$ things) and is clearly dedicated to me. But, when I go back to my place and we are apart, he has his own job and life. He isn't moping around waiting for me to call, but he is happy to talk when I do call (and vice versa). I also agree with something another poster said about only little girls with a lot of maturing left to do being the ones who like the bad boys who play games and treat them like dirt. A mature, good woman wants a strong man who is kind and respectful. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
atlg8r Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 What you SHOULD make of this, is that you're pining after the wrong girls. It seems obvious that the girls/women you're falling for are rather... um... stupid - and you don't want a stupid girl, right? So look around & start noticing the intelligent women who aren't interested in this kind of man. There are many MANY of us out there who only want NICE/sensitive/kind men & have no interest whatsoever in the bad boy/jerks you described. Look around guys, we're out there. You're just not looking in the right direction. Unfortunately, many men are programmed to find the artificially beautiful women most attractive, but they are often very superficial and will be bamboozled by the "bad boys". 2 Link to post Share on other sites
FrostBlaze Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) And as another poster said, ignoring women, get's them so mad on hunting and wanting you, i have experienced it myself. I will never understand why it works like this, some psychological stuff going on there. Or dating ex-inmates/losers that are just more masculine, i see this way too often. Let me make it short. When a woman says she wants a nice sweet guy that treats her right. All she is saying is "i want you to be sweet and nice every now and then and RESPECT me". But for the rest of the time they want you to be agressive and decisive, make their skin crawl. Be a man not a puss, dominate her in general. Most nice guys lack that, they don't have to be a doormat, it's just that they lack this agresiveness/masculinity that women themselves sometimes don't know that it's what they want. I've seen it, women making the realization after a relationship with a nice guy, most of them never admit. Some will finally realize he was too sweet and that they wanted more agression. Like i said, they don't have to be a doormat, they just lacked any agression, are to passive, that's what most nice guys are like. Edited April 8, 2014 by FrostBlaze 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TiredFamilyGuy Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) "Are women instinctively attracted to what they say they want?" is a rephrase of the question. To give a realistic answer I struggle for nuance, because the answer is plainly "No." Women - especially when young or at that point in the menstrual cycle - are attracted to over confidence and aggression: at some level they accord it respect. So do men! Being "nice" does not work of itself : I have observed that of my acquaintances the shallowest ones have had most success because of their lack of the qualities that women claim to esteem, at least until the late 20s when women start looking for life partners and have more experience. There is a life lesson here : not to be a jerk exactly, but to simulate enough jerky qualities so that a woman will look at you. Or have lots of money. Otherwise you will only be a magnet for damaged women, or women looking for a guy to hen peck, or someone who has experienced so many jerks that they go, what the heck, may as well try a nice one. I wasted a lot of my life being over nice. I blame myself for not understanding the rules: acquire resources and alliances, develop strong boundaries, and don't care enough to fear rejection. My respect to the women who said the same thing: it's not going to be something many women will want to admit. At least men a admit to being attracted to T&A. Oh, for half an hour with my younger self. Edited April 9, 2014 by TiredFamilyGuy Link to post Share on other sites
ponchsox Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I'm a nice guy but I'm also not a "yes" man. My gf likes me because I do guy things and have a sort of a care free attitude. Nothing makes a woman drier than being needy and clingy. I see so many guys like this today and they need to give up their man cards. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 What you SHOULD make of this, is that you're pining after the wrong girls. It seems obvious that the girls/women you're falling for are rather... um... stupid - and you don't want a stupid girl, right? So look around & start noticing the intelligent women who aren't interested in this kind of man. There are many MANY of us out there who only want NICE/sensitive/kind men & have no interest whatsoever in the bad boy/jerks you described. Look around guys, we're out there. You're just not looking in the right direction. I really want to comment on this, because I do find it interesting. I often hear "nice guys" bemoaning how women are only into jerks... but the women they're pursuing/pining over are kind of the Bad Boy of women. In that the women are usually young, somewhat immature, very attractive, and not always the best decision makers. It kinda seems like "nice guys" don't want "nice girls," but then judge the girls they do want for the exact same behavior. I've blatantly hit on "nice guys" who then opine about how girls don't like them! Maybe the lesson we should take away is that this is not a gendered issue... that "nice guys" can be just as blind about their options as the women they're chasing supposedly are. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
peruano99 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 No, I just like to respect everyone equally. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TB Rhine Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 There are many MANY of us out there who only want NICE/sensitive/kind men & have no interest whatsoever in the bad boy/jerks you described. The sad thing is that you probably really, truly believe this. The bottom line is that evolution and genetics drive women to respond to aggression and dominance, while pop culture, political discourse, love songs and the like program them to THINK they want caring, supportive men, and to be treated as equals. As a result, when women get (or are offered) what they want -- caring, respectful men who treat them in an egalitarian, rather than chivalrous fashion -- they don't actually respond to it, so they start making up excuses why not -- he wasn't *really* a caring man, he was just trying to get what he wanted, etc. Shock of shocks: that's what ALL men are trying to do. Every last one. Women reward the ones they're attracted to with sex, and punish/ridicule the ones they're not by acting as though those men are doing something fundamentally wrong, all because this is how they have to rationalize their continually bad decision-making to themselves. And, of course, men only add fuel to the fire when they inevitably get fed up with this treatment and act out against it, providing women yet more reason to doubt their original intentions. Surprise, peanut -- "nice" guys aren't trying to put one over on you any more than any other guy is. They're simply attempting to pursue a relationship according to a romantic idyll endorsed (make that created) by modern egalitarian ideology. Ideology based on high-falutin' ideas of what people SHOULD want, as opposed to what they actually respond to. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Buzzkill Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 There are many MANY of us out there who only want NICE/sensitive/kind men & have no interest whatsoever in the bad boy/jerks you described. I've never been a witness to this. Granted, I interact mostly with women who are in the life stage of having fun, not yet looking for a guy with the disposition and the personality to be a bread-winner/husband. Most of the women are swell human beings. They have terrific personalities, but their boyfriends and the guys they hook-up are quite trashy. Women either have the in-born desire to fix broken men or somehow these guys sexually arouse them and women, like men, act on their sexual desires. Treating a woman with special kindness and sensitivity will only land the guy in the friendzone or in the dreadful boyfriend category. Two examples: French girl comes to my college with her boyfriend. I keep a weeks worth of stubble. I am ''aggressive.'' I'm flirting with this girl like there's no tomorrow. I flirt with other girls in front of them. She seems I'm attractive to these girls. She yields and gives to me what I want. This other girl, she becomes part of my social group. She had been attracted to me from the start. She began to discern how kind I treat my friends, how great of a friend I am to my female friends and suddenly she's putting me on trial for the boyfriend position. Huh, no thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
FrostBlaze Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) The sad thing is that you probably really, truly believe this. The bottom line is that evolution and genetics drive women to respond to aggression and dominance, while pop culture, political discourse, love songs and the like program them to THINK they want caring, supportive men, and to be treated as equals. As a result, when women get (or are offered) what they want -- caring, respectful men who treat them in an egalitarian, rather than chivalrous fashion -- they don't actually respond to it, so they start making up excuses why not -- he wasn't *really* a caring man, he was just trying to get what he wanted, etc. Shock of shocks: that's what ALL men are trying to do. Every last one. Women reward the ones they're attracted to with sex, and punish/ridicule the ones they're not by acting as though those men are doing something fundamentally wrong, all because this is how they have to rationalize their continually bad decision-making to themselves. And, of course, men only add fuel to the fire when they inevitably get fed up with this treatment and act out against it, providing women yet more reason to doubt their original intentions. Surprise, peanut -- "nice" guys aren't trying to put one over on you any more than any other guy is. They're simply attempting to pursue a relationship according to a romantic idyll endorsed (make that created) by modern egalitarian ideology. Ideology based on high-falutin' ideas of what people SHOULD want, as opposed to what they actually respond to. This is so true you have no ideea, seeen it and personally experienced it way to often. This sums up pretty nicely what's the truth. Also notice the bolded part, it's available for most women. I've had at least 2 women make up BS excuses and question my "nice" behavior. They just couldn't admit to not liking what they wanted, and told me they wanted. They started to be all like "you're jut being this nice to get in my pants, it's all a malefical ploy to fool me". <--this was a response to when i told her we can wait and there's no rush to sex if she doesn't feel ready. I was seriously like WTFBBQ Y_Y. + a whole lot of other bull**** excuses, there's no point to exemplify. Anyhoo, after that i started being more of a ass, this increased my chances exponentially, but i soon realized that it isn't me so i said **** it. If they can't like me for me, i don't mind being single, it's how i've been raised...obviously the wrong way to get women. But i got used to being like this and i won't change now, i like myself. Women either have the in-born desire to fix broken men or somehow these guys sexually arouse them and women, like men, act on their sexual desires. Both, but mostly they are just arroused by them. Carring = he is nice friend material, would not do. Agressive = doable Edited April 9, 2014 by FrostBlaze 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ThaWholigan Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I guess some could say I am a nice guy because I treat people accordingly - but generally I wouldn't class myself as such simply because I encompass far more attributes than that and I am (thankfully) able to convey that at least in a social context whereas before I could not. I had my first sexual relationships less than 2 years ago and in that time, I don't recall ever conducting myself in a particularly "bad boy" manner - save for a few risky sexual scenarios and risque talk. It seems we're falling into that boring old discussion of "bad-boy/players" being the only kind of men who sexually arouse women while nice guys are automatically doormat pseudo-cuckolds who "marry broken women after their 'slut phase'" so to speak. It is an interesting discussion (without the vitriol) but I do not come to the conclusion of the above simply because men are not as black-and-white as this - and neither are women in my observation and experience. I would consider myself a hybrid of sorts. I'm no player (at all) but am growing slowly and increasingly confident in my ability to attract and arouse. So being nice on its own is not a prerequisite to attraction, but after getting over my social issues and being autistic, it hasn't hurt me at all. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 The bottom line is that evolution and genetics drive women to respond to aggression and dominance, while pop culture, political discourse, love songs and the like program them to THINK they want caring, supportive men, and to be treated as equals. And we're all slaves to our genes? No one has ever made a decision that wasn't in line with our evolutionary programming? We're all slaves to biology? Humankind hasn't further evolved or gained more nuanced views on their lives in the thousands of years since we broke away from the monkeys? (It should also be pointed out that apes, gorillas, and different species of monkeys all have different mating styles. Some are strictly monogamous, some are one male-multiple females, some are one female-two males. Humans' closest relative, the Bonobo, has a variety of sexual partners, and is matriarchal.) As a result, when women get (or are offered) what they want -- caring, respectful men who treat them in an egalitarian, rather than chivalrous fashion -- they don't actually respond to it, so they start making up excuses why not -- he wasn't *really* a caring man, he was just trying to get what he wanted, etc. They might not respond to it for reasons you are ignoring or disregarding. For example, they don't respond to it because "being nice" is the only thing a guy offers. Being nice is like including wheels on a car... it should come standard. You want wheels, but if a car had only wheels and no other features, very few people would want it. And yes, some women don't want guys who are nice. But to claim that all women want/do not want something is ridiculous. We are not a monolith. We weren't all pumped out, photo-copied from each other. Different women want different things. Surprise, peanut -- "nice" guys aren't trying to put one over on you any more than any other guy is. They're simply attempting to pursue a relationship according to a romantic idyll endorsed (make that created) by modern egalitarian ideology. Ideology based on high-falutin' ideas of what people SHOULD want, as opposed to what they actually respond to. Guys who pretend to be your friend in order to back-door their way into a relationship, and withdraw the friendship as soon as they don't get what they want, absolutely ARE "putting one over." They are being dishonest about their actual desires and motivations. No girl wants a guy who can't just come out and say he's interested. Telling a girl you are interested right away is NOT a jerk move, and I know of not a single girl who would categorize it as such. The reason guys aren't upfront about their intentions has absolutely nothing to do with how girls react or what girls want, and everything to do with their own fear of rejection. Link to post Share on other sites
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