"Nice" guys

[iiiii]

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

[Taramere]

I suppose it's difficult to tell where it comes from without knowing a bit about the environment they spend most of their time in. I would generally agree with you that being polite and respectful but having good boundaries is the way to go for both genders. Sometimes, though, you'll suddenly find yourself in an environment where that really doesn't work out...ie if it's a pretty toxic, cut throat environment where psychopathy is embraced as a positive trait.

 

Maybe some of them work in an environment like that, or they spend a lot of time participating on message boards/watching tv programmes featuring environments like that where axxholes flourish.

[soccerrprp]

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

 

FRUSTRATION, MISOGYNISTIC views of women, LAZY a$$es who really aren't so nice. They don't want to do the hard work and think it should come easy, so when it doesn't they blame women, demonize them....

[Gaeta]

To have a product on the market you need a demand for it. There are bad guys because of women easily falling for them. This is a phenomenon especially present in younger generation where both parties don't have much experience and hormones are ruling the show.

 

I was married most my adult life to my first boyfriend so I did not experience dating when I was a young woman. When I found myself single at the age of 40 I was like a 17 year old let loose with a credit card in a shopping mall ! I had NO judgment what so ever ! I misinterpreted arrogance for confidence and that lead me to date a lot of bad boys.

 

Slowly I gained experience, started to read men better, started judging them by their actions and not their words, I've stopped giving importance to compliments like you're beautiful and finally good guys started to show up in my life. Once I experienced a good man I was sold.

 

The proof that women prefer bad boys is temporary, it's all related to dating. These women always end up marrying a good guy.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Gaeta

[pickflicker]

To have a product on the market you need a demand for it. There are bad guys because of women easily falling for them. This is a phenomenon especially present in younger generation where both parties don't have much experience and hormones are ruling the show.

 

I was married most my adult life to my first boyfriend so I did not experience dating when I was a young woman. When I found myself single at the age of 40 I was like a 17 year old let loose with a credit card in a shopping mall ! I had NO judgment what so ever ! I misinterpreted arrogance for confidence and that lead me to date a lot of bad boys.

 

Slowly I gained experience, started to read men better, started judging them by their actions and not their words, I've stopped giving importance to compliments like you're beautiful and finally good guys started to show up in my life. Once I experienced a good man I was sold.

 

The proof that women prefer bad boys is temporary, it's all related to dating. These women always end up marrying a good guy.

 

It's almost as if God forbid, one (and this applies to both men and women), can't make a poor decision when dating.

 

It's never a waste to have a few bad dating experiences, so long as they lead you to ultimately make better choices. A certain number of life experiences can't be deciphered from books or anecdotes. You have to live them to appreciate them. And you're right - most people learn from a poor experience and turn it into something productive.

[d0nnivain]

I think the problem comes from people who mistakenly believe nice is synonomous with doormat. They come in here & complain that women don't respect them or want to date them but they let the women walk all over them & don't stick up for themselves.

 

Polite & nice doesn't mean you can't express an opinion or disagree with the person you are dating.

[firsttracks]

I never liked the idea of this either. I'm a nice guy and I've had better luck attracting women being respectful and nice versus being a jerk. I don't want to attract women who want to be treated like crap, there's a whole other mess of self esteem issues there I don't want to deal with anymore.

 

Being nice is difficult though because I want respect but I also hate confrontation. I usually let something slide once or twice and then confront. It's not in my nature to pick fights or be a jerk over little things, I'd rather just ignore it and see if it's a pattern.

 

I've tried being overly nice, white knight in shining armor, no boundaries and it works but they lose interest fast. I've tried being an aloof jerk and I'm terrible at it. It has not worked because I can't navigate those waters so I either look crazy or am really overly jerkish to the point where I push them away. I've genuinely been uninterested and a jerk by leading them on and that seems to work but I feel guilty about it.

 

The best formula for me is to be nice but have boundaries and my own life. Be busy, be nice, respectful, most of all have fun every time you see each other, don't be too available, and be a stable rock but make it known when something rubs you the wrong way, and don't be a dick about it.

[Els]

Good post, but it's not going to convince those who need it the most.

[kodakgirl]

I know, right? I don't get it either. What I have seen in the real world is nice girls dating nice guys. Sure, sometimes nice girls or nice guys struggle, but if they claim it's because of the "niceness", they're deluding themselves (and I say this as a nice girl who struggles). I just said it in another thread but my ex was the nicest guy I ever met and women just adored him, I've never ever met anyone who attracted as many women as he did without even trying. He was average-looking or a bit above, certainly intelligent and interesting, but mostly deeply, genuinely nice-- kind, compassionate, caring, selfless. He didn't have a ton of confidence in most of his life but he had a deep, quiet confidence in who he was. He didn't like to rock the boat and could be almost annoyingly willing to please, but he had his lines and if you crossed them he would let you know and not back down (though he would talk about it and listen). If a woman doesn't want a guy like that, she doesn't deserve him.

 

In my social circles (in our mid 20s) "he's just SO nice" is one of the best things you can say about a guy. Both my friend and I found ourselves becoming attracted to this guy we know who didn't interest us at first because he is just so constantly friendly and nice (also, as we later learned, gay, haha. Doesn't change the point, though!).

 

I guess different people have different social circles and all that... but still, this whole "nice is bad" is WEIRD.

[MixedUpChick]

I think there may also be some confusion here. I've met several "nice" guys who were also incredibly boring & seemed to have no personality. When I chose not to go out with them again, I bet at least some of them said to themselves "she doesn't like nice guys".

 

There's a massive difference between a nice guy, and an über boring nice guy. Nice is good, boring... not so much.

[Woggle]

Women are not attracted to genuinely bad men. Overgrown little girls maybe but not real women. If men want to date overgrown little girls then be a jerk but if you want a real woman be a good man.

[RonaldS]

I think it's when a guy has no other personality trait other than 'nice' that women tune out.

[organizedchaos]

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

 

No, they're not necessarily one in the same. Being a nice guy is fine. Being a doormat is not. If you're nice, don't be boring.

[regine_phalange]

I always wonder why everyone uses the term "nice guy" instead of;

 

"Amiable guy"

"Cordial guy"

"Peachy guy"

"All right guy"

"Satisfactory guy"

"Ducky guy"

 

Why?

[Imajerk17]

I wouldn't concern yourself with this too much OP. I don't think the guys on LS is an accurate cross-section of men in general. No disrespect intended or anything.

 

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

[nescafe1982]

I always wonder why everyone uses the term "nice guy" instead of;

 

"Amiable guy"

"Cordial guy"

"Peachy guy"

"All right guy"

"Satisfactory guy"

"Ducky guy"

 

Why?

 

Related: I wonder why/how so many men continue to use this tired trope ("women don't like nice guys") DESPITE the very well-publicized dating discourse surrounding "Nice Guys of OKCupid" and the "so-called nice guy" phenomenon?

 

Are these men stuck so far under a rock that it is not clear to them that a post decrying women who hate nice guys looks like to most of us? Like... are they unaware of the stereotype they so neatly fit themselves into?

[Do_The_Herp]

It's almost as if God forbid, one (and this applies to both men and women), can't make a poor decision when dating.

 

It's never a waste to have a few bad dating experiences, so long as they lead you to ultimately make better choices. A certain number of life experiences can't be deciphered from books or anecdotes. You have to live them to appreciate them. And you're right - most people learn from a poor experience and turn it into something productive.

 

None of the potential reasons for a string of terrible decisions are attractive to me personally, and I doubt that they'd be too attractive or even acceptable for a true "good" guy who is generally respectful of others, but does not tolerate bull**** and avoids any potential bull**** like the plague.

 

What really are the main "poor" decisions anyway? I can only think of maybe three or four or so that are common.

 

It's understandable that some guys can "trick" you, but generally speaking it doesn't seem hard to tell when a girl/guy is taking a guy/girl I know for a ride or has a very ****ty personality or some other incompatibility where you just KNOW it isn't going to work, and never does.. Where they're using them for sex or a place to stay and be wined and dined. It can happen to anyone. Sometimes, people get pregnant.

 

Unfortunately, their misfortunes can only serve as a personal reminder for me and all others as to how NOT to make the same fatal mistakes. Lord knows, those people wouldn't wish their problems on those around them anyway, if you'd personally asked them.

[pickflicker]

None of the potential reasons for a string of terrible decisions are attractive to me personally, and I doubt that they'd be too attractive or even acceptable for a true "good" guy who is generally respectful of others, but does not tolerate bull**** and avoids any potential bull**** like the plague.

 

What really are the main "poor" decisions anyway? I can only think of maybe three or four or so that are common.

 

It's understandable that some guys can "trick" you, but generally speaking it doesn't seem hard to tell when a girl/guy is taking a guy/girl I know for a ride or has a very ****ty personality or some other incompatibility where you just KNOW it isn't going to work, and never does.. Where they're using them for sex or a place to stay and be wined and dined. It can happen to anyone. Sometimes, people get pregnant.

 

Unfortunately, their misfortunes can only serve as a personal reminder for me and all others as to how NOT to make the same fatal mistakes. Lord knows, those people wouldn't wish their problems on those around them anyway, if you'd personally asked them.

 

Few mistakes are "fatal", believe it or not. Just about any sh*t situation can be turned around.

[topaMAXX]

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

 

Bad boys tend to either be very good looking, have high social status, lots of confidence/game, or some combination of the three.

 

Men that don't understand women blame it on the nice guy vs. bad boy argument. They are wrong. Any nice guy that has any combination of the above will also be successful with women.

[GoodOnPaper]

Bad boys tend to either be very good looking, have high social status, lots of confidence/game, or some combination of the three.

 

Men that don't understand women blame it on the nice guy vs. bad boy argument. They are wrong. Any nice guy that has any combination of the above will also be successful with women.

 

Which means that being nice in the literal sense is really irrelevant in the dating/relationship world. It's all about the other things you mention. It's highly frustrating to have some important things going for you that women say are important -- in my case, education, career, relationship-mindedness -- but none of it counts if I don't have the body of a physical trainer or some other qualities that create "chemistry". Even more frustrating is that unless you are a natural, it's not something you can get under your control. When I was single, I was always the one rejected or dumped and no matter what I did, it wouldn't change things. When I met my wife, the attraction imbalance was the other way, but no matter what I did, I couldn't shake her.

 

"Nice-guy" issues (note the air quotes) are very complex and include being too passive, too socially awkward, too sensitive, and too focused on approval by women. The doormat thing can be overcome (or at least recognized in yourself) by a little experience. All-in-all, the best thing you can do to protect yourself from "nice-guy" issues is keep a full life and not care. Although that will protect you in the initial attraction/dating stages, it doesn't exactly open you up for fulfilling relationships. Maybe that's the ultimate frustration -- the extreme disconnect between the skills set needed to attract women and that needed to navigate relationships.

[StanMusial]

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

 

Guys are simple. Women are complicated.

 

With guys it is black or white, on or off, good or bad, nice or jerk, 0 or 1. Women expect men to "thread the needle" and get it just right. It hardly ever happens as quickly or easily as anyone would like it to. It takes life experience for the most part.

 

At the end of the day you have to do whatever works for you. There is a small percentage that will get it right, a large middle ground where people will do what they have to do in this world, and the rest will just wash out the bottom onto the discard pile.

[topaMAXX]

Which means that being nice in the literal sense is really irrelevant in the dating/relationship world. It's all about the other things you mention.

 

That's correct and something that "nice guys" get wrong. Being nice means absolutely nothing. At best, it's neutral.

 

It's highly frustrating to have some important things going for you that women say are important -- in my case, education, career, relationship-mindedness -- but none of it counts if I don't have the body of a physical trainer or some other qualities that create "chemistry".

 

Education, career, ambition, etc. are all nice, but they are all icing on the cake, something nice that the woman could tell her parents about. They're mostly irrelevant though.

 

Even more frustrating is that unless you are a natural, it's not something you can get under your control.

 

It's possible, but it's a long road. Many guys that I know completely changed their personalities to attract women. I disagree with doing this. There are better ways, imo.

 

When I was single, I was always the one rejected or dumped and no matter what I did, it wouldn't change things.

 

This is pretty much normal, unless the guy has tons of options. When I used to have tons of options, I was the rejector for the most part. Since college, I don't have as many options so it varies.

 

When I met my wife, the attraction imbalance was the other way, but no matter what I did, I couldn't shake her.

 

Hopefully, that's not the only reason you married her.

 

"Nice-guy" issues (note the air quotes) are very complex and include being too passive, too socially awkward, too sensitive, and too focused on approval by women.

 

Yes, all of these things are absolute dealbreakers (including sensitivity, which women actually do not like, despite what they say).

 

The doormat thing can be overcome (or at least recognized in yourself) by a little experience. All-in-all, the best thing you can do to protect yourself from "nice-guy" issues is keep a full life and not care. Although that will protect you in the initial attraction/dating stages, it doesn't exactly open you up for fulfilling relationships. Maybe that's the ultimate frustration -- the extreme disconnect between the skills set needed to attract women and that needed to navigate relationships.

 

Again, there are other options for guys that are beyond the scope of this thread without completely changing their core personalities.

 

Success is definitely possible, but one would have to do things far outside social norms.

[Do_The_Herp]

Few mistakes are "fatal", believe it or not. Just about any sh*t situation can be turned around.

 

 

True, that. And I may be an ******* to some of those awesome individuals who got their lives together after being in a toxic relationship that was possibly pre-determined by their own broken upbringing or family history of mental illness and searching for someone who mirrors their own mentally ill parent's relationship..

 

I don't hate them, don't believe that they're less of a human than I am, but I don't want to willingly take on those problems myself. I'd rather meet someone on the same page, who has also had a relatively normal upbringing and/or has dealt with any dysfunction in a healthy manner and has risen above in spite of the circumstances.

[DKT3]

For me this isn't a complicated situation. Men do what works. I have seen "nice" guys turn into jerks and find more success with women. At that point its hard to turn me back.

 

I would call myself a jerk, not a great looking guy but I'm ok. Honestly women flock to me. I think its the I don't give a F attitude I've had since my divorce, couple that with the fact I NEVER contact them. Seems that it puts them on the hunt and I'm the prey.

 

In a one on one situation I'm engaging and honestly interested, at the moment. Once I'm away I pick her apart mentally and find ways to not like her. I lose interest and it seems to really hook them.

 

Women fall for jerks, then after some time realize what all her friends knew all along. While all along there is normally a great guy in her life that she has tagged "friend".

 

Hard for men to argue what works, having a woman say "I'm looking for a nice guy" then watching her chasing *********s teaches its best to be that.

[topaMAXX]

For me this isn't a complicated situation. Men do what works. I have seen "nice" guys turn into jerks and find more success with women. At that point its hard to turn me back.

 

I would call myself a jerk, not a great looking guy but I'm ok. Honestly women flock to me. I think its the I don't give a F attitude I've had since my divorce, couple that with the fact I NEVER contact them. Seems that it puts them on the hunt and I'm the prey.

 

In a one on one situation I'm engaging and honestly interested, at the moment. Once I'm away I pick her apart mentally and find ways to not like her. I lose interest and it seems to really hook them.

 

Women fall for jerks, then after some time realize what all her friends knew all along. While all along there is normally a great guy in her life that she has tagged "friend".

 

Hard for men to argue what works, having a woman say "I'm looking for a nice guy" then watching her chasing *********s teaches its best to be that.

 

Short and sweet. This is an awesome, concise post on how to improve with women.

 

Anytime I've ever been successful with a woman, it was because I did exactly this.