drifter777 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 From another thread: We are apparently not the norm in this world because it bothers us, but it seems like a lot of people don't care anymore. Sex means nothing to them. It's not sacred anymore. They jump in and out of bed with each other and others and don't even care. Sure, it might bother them some, but they just push that thought out of their mind and go on through life, deciding it's all about what feels good in the moment. They don't think about the future or the consequences at all...it's too much for their brains to even wrap around. Is this a possible reason why some people are overwhelmed by sexual infidelity but can reconcile emotional infidelity? Is it generational to some degree? As for me, sex has always been a special gift that was given to me by the girl/woman I loved. Even in Jr. High we were in love for a month or two. And in High School I loved a girl deeply for nearly 2 years. When they gave sex to me it was precious and something I remember and treasure to this day. The fact that some had sex before we met and certainly after we broke up doesn't tarnish anything because all that matters is that they were faithful during our relationship. I'm wondering if my feeling about what sex means makes it much more important to me and is a reason that I cannot forgive or accept the actual sexual acts she did with OM. It revolts me on a level I'm not sure any of you understand because you grew up and were shaped in a different time when sex was simply not sacred. What do you think?
central Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I understand what you're saying, and to a considerable extent agree with it. But - isn't there always one? - I have a somewhat different take on things. Nothing is sacred. We decide what is important to us and call it sacred. Trust, truth, and loyalty are very important to me, and so I guess you'd call them sacred. That includes not being cheated on and then deceived and lied to about it. The real problem is the betrayal of trust and the expectation of honesty, not the act or fact of physical or emotional connection with someone else. We've been in open and swinger relationships, so sex with other people isn't a problem. We're both in agreement, nothing is hidden, no lies are told, and no disloyalty occurs. Sex is just an enjoyable physical activity in this case. Now, if I were cheated on, I wouldn't accept or forgive that. 2
RightThere Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Most men (surprisingly) equate sex with love. Women do not to the same degree as men. I've read because there is a lot of baggage that comes along with sex for women so they've put less importance on it in comparison. Women tend to have sex only when their husband wants it, they feel often pumped and dumped, good girls only have good sex (not nasty dirty kinds of sex). As a guy, I would often fall into that trap that if I fought with my STBXW, sex would fix things in my head. Really it was just fulfilling my need, but not hers at the time. So yes, men put a higher importance on sex in a relationship (not so much casual sex with strangers).
veritas lux mea Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Sex is just a primal act. We make it more than that. So by itself it is just "sex" but in a faithful and Intimate relationship it can become almost spiritual for some. Sex right now with my H is great since we took out the distractions. It is physicaly enjoyable and fulfilling. We have recaptured the exclusiveness of it. Sex with xMM was just sex. I did get attatched to him but it was a bond that has been broken. It has no affect on our current sex life because his penis isn't currently in my vagina. Nor will another man's penis be because that road is not worth travelling. Just because someone at one time has sex with someone else doesn't mean it can't become something sacred and special with their spouse. You can reclaim that if you want to. Doing so doesn't mean you say sex is cheap. Doing so is saying sex can be cheap but with love forgiveness and a second chance it can be so much more than that. 1
Buckeye2 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I totally agree with the OP but I’m old. I do believe it’s generational. I spoke with some young people recently and they told me that their normal pattern was to go to a bar, meet someone and have sex. Then, if they really hit it off, they would go out on a date at a later time. I think that young people having anonymous sex with so many makes cheating easier (i.e. if you have had sex with 100 strangers, what difference is 101). In the following post the OP is about 20 years older than his wife and when he was out of town she would go bar hopping with her girlfriends just like when she was single and spend the night with some random guy. It didn’t seem to be that big of a deal to her because it was a different guy every time. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/460257-how-broach-subject-wife
Author drifter777 Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 Sex is just a primal act. We make it more than that. So by itself it is just "sex" but in a faithful and Intimate relationship it can become almost spiritual for some. Sex right now with my H is great since we took out the distractions. It is physicaly enjoyable and fulfilling. We have recaptured the exclusiveness of it. Sex with xMM was just sex. I did get attatched to him but it was a bond that has been broken. It has no affect on our current sex life because his penis isn't currently in my vagina. Nor will another man's penis be because that road is not worth travelling. Just because someone at one time has sex with someone else doesn't mean it can't become something sacred and special with their spouse. You can reclaim that if you want to. Doing so doesn't mean you say sex is cheap. Doing so is saying sex can be cheap but with love forgiveness and a second chance it can be so much more than that. For me, when I am in a committed relationship (like marriage) there is no such thing as my wife having "just sex" with another man. I understand that some men wouldn't be as hung-up on this as me, but it's much, much more than a primal act. Two dogs screwing in my front yard is a primal act. If my wife has sex with someone while we're married than the special bond that I feel is gone. Destroying something sacred has no remedy so if sex is sacred to me than it cannot be made whole again. To ever forgive her for what she did is to "understand" her behavior - where "understand" means "approve". That will never happen. What I can do - and what I am doing - is to accept that back then she did a selfish, hurtful, shameful thing BUT she is not that person anymore. I trust her and believe she would never do it again. As I've said in other posts, I have to go through the process of accepting all this every time I trigger. 2
veritas lux mea Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 For me, when I am in a committed relationship (like marriage) there is no such thing as my wife having "just sex" with another man. I understand that some men wouldn't be as hung-up on this as me, but it's much, much more than a primal act. Two dogs screwing in my front yard is a primal act. If my wife has sex with someone while we're married than the special bond that I feel is gone. Destroying something sacred has no remedy so if sex is sacred to me than it cannot be made whole again. To ever forgive her for what she did is to "understand" her behavior - where "understand" means "approve". That will never happen. What I can do - and what I am doing - is to accept that back then she did a selfish, hurtful, shameful thing BUT she is not that person anymore. I trust her and believe she would never do it again. As I've said in other posts, I have to go through the process of accepting all this every time I trigger. So once again it is your mindset not her that is destroying your chance at happiness. Accepting that sex can be just sex isn't saying it is okay it is being realistic. If you guys broke up and she had sex in your time apart and tenfot back together you guys could still rebuild a spiritual connection if you wanted to. I think it would make you so much happier if you let go if your need to punish her until the day you die. And you may stop triggering too. Have you thought about seperating but remainig together for the grandson? Let both of you see other people. Don't say you are too old. My 75 year old aunt has a boyfriend!
Darren Steez Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 We attach such sentimentality to sex. If you're single and not careful then enjoy it, but in the context of a relationship, once your partner has sex, that is the red line crossed. No forgiveness 1
veritas lux mea Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 To answer the question. If what you believe is making you miserable and robbing you of all happiness... Then perhaps it is too important. Would your rather be happy and forgive your wife and value her based on her current, recent past and future actions or hold on to your idea that forgiveness means saying the A was "okay", be in a miserable marriage forever. You already hate yourself for staying all that time ago. Would giving that viewpoint up be anymore terrible than the life you are living?
veritas lux mea Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 We attach such sentimentality to sex. If you're single and not careful then enjoy it, but in the context of a relationship, once your partner has sex, that is the red line crossed. No forgiveness Should that say "careful" not "not careful"?
road Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Sex is just a primal act. We make it more than that. So by itself it is just "sex" but in a faithful and Intimate relationship it can become almost spiritual for some. Sex right now with my H is great since we took out the distractions. It is physicaly enjoyable and fulfilling. We have recaptured the exclusiveness of it. Sex with xMM was just sex. I did get attatched to him but it was a bond that has been broken. It has no affect on our current sex life because his penis isn't currently in my vagina. Nor will another man's penis be because that road is not worth travelling. Just because someone at one time has sex with someone else doesn't mean it can't become something sacred and special with their spouse. You can reclaim that if you want to. Doing so doesn't mean you say sex is cheap. Doing so is saying sex can be cheap but with love forgiveness and a second chance it can be so much more than that. You do not see a man's point. In general it is easier for a woman to get laid then a man. So when a man gets a woman to give up the gift of sex it leaves the man feeling that he has gotten something special. Then when a WW gives it up to the OM. The BH sees himself as no longer being special to the WW. The WW just devalued her BH. And made the her giving up sex not that valuable. So how does the WW make the BH get his self esteem back. WW: Oh BH all those orgasms with the OM were just orgasms. 2
veritas lux mea Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 You do not see a man's point. In general it is easier for a woman to get laid then a man. So when a man gets a woman to give up the gift of sex it leaves the man feeling that he has gotten something special. Then when a WW gives it up to the OM. The BH sees himself as no longer being special to the WW. The WW just devalued her BH. And made the her giving up sex not that valuable. So how does the WW make the BH get his self esteem back. WW: Oh BH all those orgasms with the OM were just orgasms. Actually my husband was glad it was just sex. And just sex doesn't mean better it means no ILYs or future faking or emotional investment. And for guys who have evolved past caveman status that can be helpful. My H never lost his selfesteem so it wasn't a problem. I think drifter proves that a WW can't help her H work past it. Maybe they can hinder but if the BH doesn't want to let it go or forgive no amount of trying to make sex special again or the relationship good again will work. So yor post means nothing. His wife failed their marriage. Sounds like she has tried to remedy that. But his pride or something won't allow that so there is no reconciliation to be had. I don't know if he is unhappy or not. She isn't here but he is and he is unhappy.
road Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 So once again it is your mindset not her that is destroying your chance at happiness. Accepting that sex can be just sex isn't saying it is okay it is being realistic. If you guys broke up and she had sex in your time apart and tenfot back together you guys could still rebuild a spiritual connection if you wanted to. I think it would make you so much happier if you let go if your need to punish her until the day you die. And you may stop triggering too. Sex is just sex when you are single. When in a relationship and you have promised to be exclusive. It is no longer just sex. Chances are always going to be that when you date someone they have had a BF/GF before you. That is water under the bridge. When you are married and your WW banged an OM. That is not past history. That is what happened to the BH now. This is not water under the bridge. This is throwing the BH off of the bridge with his hands tied. Then complaining why can't the BH swim anymore with the WW. 2
veritas lux mea Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Sex is just sex when you are single. When in a relationship and you have promised to be exclusive. It is no longer just sex. Chances are always going to be that when you date someone they have had a BF/GF before you. That is water under the bridge. When you are married and your WW banged an OM. That is not past history. That is what happened to the BH now. This is not water under the bridge. This is throwing the BH off of the bridge with his hands tied. Then complaining why can't the BH swim anymore with the WW. But we aren't talking about me or even a fresh betrayed spouse. What would your advice to the OP be? Context changes when the A has stopped, NC maintained and water has flown under the bridge for years.
Arvin_Solheim Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) An odd question..... I have to say that for me sex is not "Sacred".....It's a physical process that at times leads to emotional bonding....Whenever I cheated I didn't consider the fact that it might be hurtful or something like that; It's just not my style but what I do know is that I was once cheated on a long time ago by my second girlfriend and I retaliated in the worst way possible (even though I had cheated before her and she never knew)......I can never tolerate cheating on my girlfriend's part; sure a woman is entitled to date anyone she fancies but when she becomes my long term partner I cannot accept it, Oddly enough I don't mind her sleeping with other girls(I had a bi-sexual girlfriend who had a green light from me to sleep with other girls and that did have its own perks) I think that its purely Genetic with a bit of cultural influence that men can't handle cheating the same way women do(I think it's easier for them to accept it, even though it is just as devastating). For me the problem was always "Other men"....given the fact that I don't mind my girlfriend being with other girls tells me that I don't care about sex, for me it's the fact that I should be the only man in her life.... and I do believe it is better to be alone and in search for someone new instead of trying to get over the fact that someone stomped all over you. (I am a hypocrite and I don't mind it, but if the situation between me and my girlfriend was reversed I would've left her instantly) Edited March 31, 2014 by Arvin_Solheim
Spark1111 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I have read that sex is how a man shows and receives love, and as long as he is in love with a woman, even if he himself cheats, it is paramount that the woman he loves remains faithful to him. makes sense. Why do so many cheaters go to such great lengths to hide their extra-curricular exploits, or claim it was just sex when caught? I also have read that men can have a harder time overcoming the mind movies of their SO being physical with another and if they cannot, should divorce because it will forever taint the relationship. Women seem to be more devastated by an emotional, romantic attachment to another female. For many, that is the greater threat and causes greater pain than the sex act. Drifter, I do not think it is generational. When I read a younger poster claiming it was just sex, I assume they have not yet been deeply in love, where the thought of just sex or just in love by their SO would rock their world. 2
confusedandhurt2002 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 This is absolutely untrue biologically. Biologically a man has sex to feel love, but a woman has to feel loved to have sex. Women put a lot into sex and not every woman only has sex because her husband wants it. Geez..are you still married? You need to do some research, I think. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding what you mean, which is entirely possible. I do agree men put more importance on sex because that is how a man feels close to a person, again, speaking how a man is made and how he thinks. It isn't a bad thing, it's simply a fact of life. A man can have sex and not love a person in many cases while a woman usually falls in love first and then has sex. Of course, not always true, just an average. Most men (surprisingly) equate sex with love. Women do not to the same degree as men. I've read because there is a lot of baggage that comes along with sex for women so they've put less importance on it in comparison. Women tend to have sex only when their husband wants it, they feel often pumped and dumped, good girls only have good sex (not nasty dirty kinds of sex). As a guy, I would often fall into that trap that if I fought with my STBXW, sex would fix things in my head. Really it was just fulfilling my need, but not hers at the time. So yes, men put a higher importance on sex in a relationship (not so much casual sex with strangers). 1
confusedandhurt2002 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Well, I agree with it because I wrote it, so I stand by what I said. I know it won't be a popular thing for me to say, or maybe not, but I believe in God and I believe God created sex to be between a man and woman who are married (not going to debate anything anyone misinterprets here because I am just being general for the sake of keeping it short and sweet. THat makes sex a sacred and special thing. WHen a man or woman goes outside of marriage they take away something sacred that belonged to their spouse, in my opinion. I feel sex is something special between two people and not something to just do to feel good (though that is awesome too, so don't get me wrong!). Blah, blah, I could go on and on but I need to cook dinner so I will leave it at that for now. From another thread: We are apparently not the norm in this world because it bothers us, but it seems like a lot of people don't care anymore. Sex means nothing to them. It's not sacred anymore. They jump in and out of bed with each other and others and don't even care. Sure, it might bother them some, but they just push that thought out of their mind and go on through life, deciding it's all about what feels good in the moment. They don't think about the future or the consequences at all...it's too much for their brains to even wrap around. Is this a possible reason why some people are overwhelmed by sexual infidelity but can reconcile emotional infidelity? Is it generational to some degree? As for me, sex has always been a special gift that was given to me by the girl/woman I loved. Even in Jr. High we were in love for a month or two. And in High School I loved a girl deeply for nearly 2 years. When they gave sex to me it was precious and something I remember and treasure to this day. The fact that some had sex before we met and certainly after we broke up doesn't tarnish anything because all that matters is that they were faithful during our relationship. I'm wondering if my feeling about what sex means makes it much more important to me and is a reason that I cannot forgive or accept the actual sexual acts she did with OM. It revolts me on a level I'm not sure any of you understand because you grew up and were shaped in a different time when sex was simply not sacred. What do you think?
ChooseTruth Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I think you guys have already covered the emotional and dishonesty sides of this. Here's another point: Sex makes babies. My ex got pregnant and didn't know who the father was. -WWs can put a BH in the position of raising someone else's child. -WHs can put a BW in the position of having to financially support a child that is not their own, and having to allow their WH to spend time with that child and OW. -WSs in general can create a situation of having a child who finds out their Dad is not their real Dad.. Then there's STDS... It's not just about sex. Emotional attachmentBroken Trust/LiesIllegitimate ChildrenSTDs 2
veritas lux mea Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Um, what? Context changes when the betrayal isn't fresh? No, sorry, it doesn't change anything. Cheating is cheating, whether you did it 1 day ago or 1 year ago. If you have sex while in a relationship with another person, that context never changes, it's always going to be cheating, it's always going to be a painful reminder that even if you had some love for your spouse you surely did not have enough. The "water under the bridge" thing suggests it's over in done with, but the sting of betrayal never goes away..that is kind of why people hate being betrayed so much in this manner. It won't go away. You might go some time without thinking about it, but sooner or later something will trigger it and all that pain will come flooding back, it will hit you like a semi truck. That is the type of crap you put your spouse through if you cheat on them. Cheating is not like wine, it doesn't get better with age. As you have never been cheated on you really have no idea. It is actually doesn't fit this situation. This man chose to stay with his wife. It has been years. SHe has remained faithful. He hates her and himself. Clearly this mindset and stubborness to let go is not working for him. People have a choice. They can either hold on to a grudge until the day they die or they can let it go. OP can believe that he will never have a good marriage again while he chooses to stay in that marriage for his grandson. Be a martyr because he thinks forgiving his wife and truly giving her a second chance is saying her screwing around is okay. Instead of clinging to his triggers and wallowing in self pity and regret he could choose to forgive her and take control of his thought life instead of letting it control him. But instead he chooses to believe doing so is saying the affair was okay and so he remains in a miserable life, unhappy with himself and his wife for the rest of his life with her. That is depressing. Forgiveness isn't saying what someone did was okay. If what someone did was okay where is the need to forgive? Being bitter and mourning the past and things you cannot change is no way to live. 1
Spark1111 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 is that what you think? That we are so afraid of being alone that we gave them blanket forgiveness and the cheater laughed at our naive kindness????????????? Now, that's funny.
sidney2718 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 From another thread: We are apparently not the norm in this world because it bothers us, but it seems like a lot of people don't care anymore. Sex means nothing to them. It's not sacred anymore. They jump in and out of bed with each other and others and don't even care. Sure, it might bother them some, but they just push that thought out of their mind and go on through life, deciding it's all about what feels good in the moment. They don't think about the future or the consequences at all...it's too much for their brains to even wrap around. Is this a possible reason why some people are overwhelmed by sexual infidelity but can reconcile emotional infidelity? Is it generational to some degree? As for me, sex has always been a special gift that was given to me by the girl/woman I loved. Even in Jr. High we were in love for a month or two. And in High School I loved a girl deeply for nearly 2 years. When they gave sex to me it was precious and something I remember and treasure to this day. The fact that some had sex before we met and certainly after we broke up doesn't tarnish anything because all that matters is that they were faithful during our relationship. I'm wondering if my feeling about what sex means makes it much more important to me and is a reason that I cannot forgive or accept the actual sexual acts she did with OM. It revolts me on a level I'm not sure any of you understand because you grew up and were shaped in a different time when sex was simply not sacred. What do you think? There is the old "biology" theory. For what it is worth, the idea is that men instinctively want to impregnate as many women as possible because that increases the odds of their genes surviving. Women, on the other hand, seek the most alpha male around because they provide "better" genes as well as protection. Then there is the "newer biology" theory which starts with the old theory but adds to male behavior the idea that if he sticks around a female that looks as if she is genetically superior that he can better ensure survival of his genes. For males this leads to the "marriage and cheating" model of male behavior. For women the "newer" theory is that by having several men in reserve she can greatly increase both her survival rate and the survival rate of her children. For females this leads to the "marriage and cheating" model of female behavior. These are obviously too simple to explain much, but there they are for what they are worth.
rumbleseat Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I don't know if it's biology, genetics or something more, but to me, having sex with someone was the closest I could get to another human being. It was a very "spiritual" thing, which is something coming from an agnostic such as myself. It wasn't something you just went and did with anyone. It was something very special , an experience to be shared with on,y the person I truly loved. Due to circumstances beyond my control, he wasn't my actual " first" , but he was, in a very real the first time where it meant anything for me. It was something between us that was a unique experience that we couldn't share with anyone else. One of the "casualties" of my h's A was that I don't think that anymore. I know all about casual sex, but in my mind, sex was never a casual thing. It still isn't, but it's not the same as it was and it won't ever be again. This is not to say that I do 'to enjoy it with my H, or that we rarely have sex, it's just changed in a profound way that leaves a sting of sadness. Maybe that sound nieve, but it's how I feel. 1
road Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 while a woman usually falls in love first and then has sex. Of course, not always true, just an average. In general another reason that BH's have a hard time getting over their WW did the OM.
JamesM Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Do BSs somehow value sex more than the WS? No. In fact, the problem with my marriage is that my wife does not value having sex with me. So if I found a woman who enjoyed sex with me, then am I the one devaluing sex? Nope. If I entered into an affair with a woman who loved me as I her and that was expressed passionately with sex, how do I devalue sex? I don't. While one can argue that I do not value the commitment to being faithful to my wife with my sexual relations, one could argue just as strongly that she has already devalued sex by not honoring her commitment to me through the omission of sex as an expression of love. From what I have read, there are many affairs that have started simply because the sex life fell apart in the marriage. If both partners had realized how important that intimacy was to the relationship, then perhaps the marriage would have survived. So while it is true that in some cases, the WS simply enjoys sex and doesn't use it as an expression of love, in many cases, the exact opposite is true. I can say that in my case, my wife has no interest in sex and cannot understand how it is necessary to a good marriage anymore...per her. Who values sex more? Me.
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