No intimate conversations ...

[Eivuwan]

You have to understand that there is a strong possibility that she will always be like this. Can you accept that?

[Zimber]

You have to understand that there is a strong possibility that she will always be like this. Can you accept that?

I do understand it yes.

Can I accept it ... it depends. My biggest reason for wishing this is to get to know her better and trust more. I don't need more intimate conversations so I can chat ooze all the time.

What I worry about is that I'll end up pulling back some and we end up in more of a business partnership. For that I don't need marriage.

 

I hope that at least there will be a happy medium. I will say that she has told me things in the last week that I hadn't expected (more information). Maybe she's starting to realize I'm not going to dump her when the alter gets close.

 

Z

[2sunny]

If you intend to marry her - then it's only right to accept that she isn't a big emotionally expressive gal.

 

Over all else - do not marry her hoping she needs to change to suit your comfort zone or needs.

 

If her emotionally distant style doesn't work for you now - and things aren't likely to change - I am at a loss and can't see how it's supposed to look all happy 10 or 20 years from now.

[still_an_Angel]

You have to understand that there is a strong possibility that she will always be like this. Can you accept that?

 

You're lucky this woman wants the same things as you, she may not be emotionally expressive and she guards her thoughts but i think she makes up for it physically and cares for you... she looks after you and it seems she really wants to please you. Her being emotionally distant seem to be a product of years of being stoic and unused to expressing her thoughts. And i still do not discount the possibility that she has something that she's embarrased/scared to share with you coz you might change your mind about marrying her.

 

I think you will have to work slowly and hope you can 'break' into her thoughts/past coz it might take you a long time to get to the core of her thoughts. You've got to work on this one my dear chap, with no guarantees... i think you will have to accept this when you marry her. If intimate talks weigh heavy for you in a marriage, you need to re-think before you proceed. After all the physical, material stuff, marriage is companionship and if you are not connected emotionally to her?...

 

I wish i could help, maybe a stranger's views would give you a different perspective... all the best chappie.

[Zimber]

Almond_Joy, this is the forth attempt to answer this post but I finally was able to scheme some me time to answer this complex post properly ...

 

I see some similarities in your relationship and mine. Going on 2.5 yrs with my bf, living together a year. My bf is emotionally reserved by nature and I came in with severe trust issues, some of them since childhood.

That sounds similar to my situation indeed. My breakup with my ex really messed me up too. I had always been a tad jumpy, but not like I am now (nicely hidden for the most part).

 

If your gf is like me, emotionally complex/rich but scared to open up, it will take years or some emotionally cathartic event for her to get to the level of intimacy you want to see.

I would love to know that is the case. However, that is the paradox isn't it?

If one doesn't offer an opinion to an emotional matter (anyones), ever shed a tear (not even a movie) or to even just come home and vent about something (me, work, missed that there is no toilet paper in that stall ...), it's hard to do other than speculate. She's not a robot mind you, she is very affectionate, likes a lot of physical contact ... just no words.

 

She may be more comfortable speaking that way and that way can devote more energy to be being emotionally open in conversation.

I feel that I should learn her language anyway, but it will take a very long time. Also this has to come from her. I would love to see her put that "skin on the table". I've mentioned it a couple/three times, but the initiative burns out with "pass the salt" or some other such thing and doesn't happen again until next it's mentioned.

 

If your gf is more like my bf....she's just not emotionally responsive/aware the way you are. This was hard for me to grasp, but some people's emotional attachments are very limited and may come across as superficial to more emotionally intuitive folks. It's not that they're holding back, but what they have to give in that department is not as rich as what you're expecting.

I like this statement. I think I can learn to live with that quite easily. It would help me rule out the concerns that cause me anxiety. It's another of those things that I would have to take a leap of faith and believe because she freezes if I were to ask her such a question (not that I would - I think she'd take it as a ... slight, that I'm suggesting something is lacking rather than just different).

 

The situation seems more like the former since you've observed she's close with others.

Not sure which, a combination or something else (the part I'm concerned about). My paranoid self is worried that I'm just a mannequin to place beside her so she's married rather than "her man". I'm not a Hollywood fantasy nut job with terms like "soul mate" and "the one" bouncing in my tiny man brain, but would hate to realize someday that I'm married to a person that just wanted a ... mannequin that would ... serve (income, share house, cater too ...). Bah!

 

I'd recommend being patient, and exploring ways she can express herself emotionally that you can understand besides verbally -writing, artwork, music - perhaps she can find art that expresses what she wants to say but can't/won't just yet? Or make art of her own.

You are wonderfully sensitive. Too bad you were not her influential girlfriend that she trusted completely! Truth be told, I'm not sure that she could conceive of expressing herself in such a way. However, I assume that maybe I should look within. I think you point really was ... Am I capable of relating what I would like (words) to some other form of ... communication. I'm going to explore this. Thank you!

 

Also learning some of her language again may help. Are there discrepancies between her language and English, maybe words in one language that there's no word for in the other? That could create a communication gap too. Just a troubleshooting area to consider.

I am considering this (as mentioned above). I think it would make it easier for her. I just think so much quicker than she does. I'm not suggesting anything other than we're different, but I think it intimidates the heck out of her. My "feeling" is that she's had a parent and a husband (maybe others) that have made her feel inadequate in the past, coupled with someone that is not "emotionally complex/rich", a wall of protection has come up. She has mentioned that she doesn't want to talk about herself/past in the fear that I will someday use it against her. This suggests she's been manipulated pretty badly too. Sigh, we all have problems don't we?

 

You've given me some things to think about ... hope for.

 

Z

[Zimber]

You're lucky this woman wants the same things as you, she may not be emotionally expressive and she guards her thoughts but i think she makes up for it physically and cares for you... she looks after you and it seems she really wants to please you. Her being emotionally distant seem to be a product of years of being stoic and unused to expressing her thoughts. And i still do not discount the possibility that she has something that she's embarrased/scared to share with you coz you might change your mind about marrying her.

 

I think you will have to work slowly and hope you can 'break' into her thoughts/past coz it might take you a long time to get to the core of her thoughts. You've got to work on this one my dear chap, with no guarantees... i think you will have to accept this when you marry her. If intimate talks weigh heavy for you in a marriage, you need to re-think before you proceed. After all the physical, material stuff, marriage is companionship and if you are not connected emotionally to her?...

 

I wish i could help, maybe a stranger's views would give you a different perspective... all the best chappie.

Yep, I agree. My last post which I was writing when you responded to this thread, touched on a couple of your points, my fears and what I can learn to live with.

 

You're very correct though and why I am following through. We have a lot of similarities, life goals and there is a ... calmness that is present when we're together.

 

I started this thread to explore understand her better and it's certainly given me some new insights. The direction of thought it did provoke which I didn't expect was to pay more attention to why this was so important to me. If I accept that she's different is all, why is bothering me?

 

Self improvement, alternative perceptions I can control and succeed with, Expecting someone to respond like me is not realistic.

 

Z

[Zimber]

If you intend to marry her - then it's only right to accept that she isn't a big emotionally expressive gal.

 

Over all else - do not marry her hoping she needs to change to suit your comfort zone or needs.

 

If her emotionally distant style doesn't work for you now - and things aren't likely to change - I am at a loss and can't see how it's supposed to look all happy 10 or 20 years from now.

Last couple posts kind of took care of this response too. What I'm really getting from this thread is that she will likely be quite happy. She is happy! Will I allow myself to be happy too?

Yep, work to do!

 

Z

[Zimber]

I do understand it yes.

Can I accept it ... it depends. My biggest reason for wishing this is to get to know her better and trust more. I don't need more intimate conversations so I can chat ooze all the time.

What I worry about is that I'll end up pulling back some and we end up in more of a business partnership. For that I don't need marriage.

 

I hope that at least there will be a happy medium. I will say that she has told me things in the last week that I hadn't expected (more information). Maybe she's starting to realize I'm not going to dump her when the alter gets close.

 

Z

 

You have to understand that there is a strong possibility that she will always be like this. Can you accept that?

 

I may need to change my answer. I'm pretty quick to give a positive sounding answer because I hate the thought of starting over. Perhaps it's that I just want the potential picture I've managed to paint in my mind to the point where I've allowed it to cloud my judgment.

 

Here is the kicker as I think Eivuwan was "picking up", is that I'm not that secure. I'm damaged goods after my divorce and the trigger density is a little thick. Fact is, is next to a serial cheater, an avoided is the worst person for me. Especially one that is a little bit narcissistic, has daddy issues (I think, but ... how can I know for sure) and has lied to me before. The combo makes me nervous as hell as they are such an easy mark for a player. Gullible, not too bright, narcissistic, hottie-wannabe but just ... isn't (cute and small who appears warm at first, but if you're empathic, you'll feel/see the wall within a couple hours).

 

Listen to the way I'm talking. Sigh, I'm fooked!

 

Fact is, I'm frustrated as heck. If she could at least talk to me, I could latch on to something. Anything she says if I try to talk to her is just BS and avoidance. As such, certain ... indiscretions of hers (maybe yes, maybe the paranoia of damaged goods asking an avoider for details) are slowly eating away at my ability to love. It's only a matter of time before I snap.

 

I'm not worried about being alone. If I ever am, it will be by choice. I'm in pretty good shape with the attributes most attractive to most women I think (the ugly part of me I hide until I gain confidence in the relationship and it gets absorbed back into me - I'm not denying anything, I'm on a public forum ... right?).

 

So ... I'm on a death spiral heading towards a complete meltdown (yes, there is more to this, and yes I know this will eb and flow, but always flow downhill a little more).

 

That said, does a wise nervous person need to give me a head slap?

Or an anti-denial crusader need to give that slap?

 

I'm frustrated and don't know what to do.

 

Z

[Eivuwan]

I may need to change my answer. I'm pretty quick to give a positive sounding answer because I hate the thought of starting over. Perhaps it's that I just want the potential picture I've managed to paint in my mind to the point where I've allowed it to cloud my judgment.

 

Here is the kicker as I think Eivuwan was "picking up", is that I'm not that secure. I'm damaged goods after my divorce and the trigger density is a little thick. Fact is, is next to a serial cheater, an avoided is the worst person for me. Especially one that is a little bit narcissistic, has daddy issues (I think, but ... how can I know for sure) and has lied to me before. The combo makes me nervous as hell as they are such an easy mark for a player. Gullible, not too bright, narcissistic, hottie-wannabe but just ... isn't (cute and small who appears warm at first, but if you're empathic, you'll feel/see the wall within a couple hours).

 

Listen to the way I'm talking. Sigh, I'm fooked!

 

Fact is, I'm frustrated as heck. If she could at least talk to me, I could latch on to something. Anything she says if I try to talk to her is just BS and avoidance. As such, certain ... indiscretions of hers (maybe yes, maybe the paranoia of damaged goods asking an avoider for details) are slowly eating away at my ability to love. It's only a matter of time before I snap.

 

I'm not worried about being alone. If I ever am, it will be by choice. I'm in pretty good shape with the attributes most attractive to most women I think (the ugly part of me I hide until I gain confidence in the relationship and it gets absorbed back into me - I'm not denying anything, I'm on a public forum ... right?).

 

So ... I'm on a death spiral heading towards a complete meltdown (yes, there is more to this, and yes I know this will eb and flow, but always flow downhill a little more).

 

That said, does a wise nervous person need to give me a head slap?

Or an anti-denial crusader need to give that slap?

 

I'm frustrated and don't know what to do.

 

Z

 

Have you ever considered some therapy for yourself? It seems that there are a lot of things to work through aside from your fiancee not being an emotionally open person.

[Zimber]

Have you ever considered some therapy for yourself? It seems that there are a lot of things to work through aside from your fiancee not being an emotionally open person.

Considered, participated and still participate. I understand what ails me / has ailed me.

If I had to start this relationship over again, I'm not so sure I would. Sometimes I feel like the mannequin rather than her man and it bothers me. To the emotionally unavailable man, this woman would be a perfect.

 

For now I suppose, I have to just concentrate on myself. It just feels like accepting that direction I'm somehow facing eventual loss. I know this is not realistic, but cannot shake it.

 

Z

[Eivuwan]

Considered, participated and still participate. I understand what ails me / has ailed me.

If I had to start this relationship over again, I'm not so sure I would. Sometimes I feel like the mannequin rather than her man and it bothers me. To the emotionally unavailable man, this woman would be a perfect.

 

For now I suppose, I have to just concentrate on myself. It just feels like accepting that direction I'm somehow facing eventual loss. I know this is not realistic, but cannot shake it.

 

Z

 

I think it's time to have a serious talk with your fiancee about your concerns before you guys marry. I know you talked with her before, but perhaps you need to be more firm and serious this time. I am not sure if she is aware of the gravity of the situation. Avoidance usually doesn't solve a problem.

[Zimber]

I think it's time to have a serious talk with your fiancee about your concerns before you guys marry. I know you talked with her before, but perhaps you need to be more firm and serious this time. I am not sure if she is aware of the gravity of the situation. Avoidance usually doesn't solve a problem.

Kind of a paradox when the person doesn't talk. I'll just get denial and insinuation that I need help.

 

I think what sparked my sudden cloud of darkness last night was a phone call about a therapist referred to me a little less than a year ago.

We were in love supposedly, she went on a business trip and went ghost. When she came back, she appeared in half love with her colleague that she traveled with. I almost dumped her over it (long story to this one, not relevant for now). So she decided I needed help with my issues (more help to numb me into a false sense of security where I trust her so deeply, I'll forgive going ghost and gaslighting).

The therapist took months to call. I told her that I didn't want to go, but felt we should as we both have issues. She agreed at the time. Then then idiot therapist went ghost again and phoned two nights ago (phoned me this time). What bugged me, is that she will still go, because she wants to see me get help. So her somewhat acceptance that we both have issues went away, and I'm a sick dog again. I've been down this road before. When my sanity is put on trial to hide another persons indiscretions, it's one of the most horrible things that can be done to a partner.

 

I'm soooooo in denial. I've got 200 guests invited to a wedding in three months. Uggggh!

 

My problem is, is I love the woman and she very much wants to go through with it (guess that's how I got here).

 

Z

[2sunny]

You two have some very big issues to deal with before considering getting married.

 

Delay the marriage for now.

 

Tell her what you feel and why and ask her what she plans to change so that you can eventually consider marrying her without her cloud of deception and suspicion.

 

Tell her that communication from her side isn't adequate at the moment to go through with the wedding.

 

If you have reservations this big - don't get married.

 

If you suspect she's cheated - start looking for evidence.

 

You need to know - or not - if she's hiding things from you.

[Candy_Pants]

I had an ex like this. I thought he was mysterious and quiet at first. Turns out he was just plain old BORING.

[Zimber]

You two have some very big issues to deal with before considering getting married.

 

Delay the marriage for now.

 

Tell her what you feel and why and ask her what she plans to change so that you can eventually consider marrying her without her cloud of deception and suspicion.

 

Tell her that communication from her side isn't adequate at the moment to go through with the wedding.

 

If you have reservations this big - don't get married.

 

If you suspect she's cheated - start looking for evidence.

 

You need to know - or not - if she's hiding things from you.

 

I know you're right. Actually, we've been here before (Mid December).

 

There is a pattern that will follow.

I'll be uncomfortable, a little distant.

She's ask "you're upset?", like a caring person would.

We'll talk / gently quarrel (mostly her denying or saying nothing).

She'll later turn up the heat (couple ILY texts, hump like bunnies) and the problem fades in the background.

Month or two of more attention (still no intimate words) then ... fade again.

Rinse and repeat.

 

What I don't understand is why she wants to get married because I don't understand for the life of me how someone can be so guarded on one side of their face, but push forward on the other?

Why would she risk sooooo much on saying "ILY" now and then rather than just "me too". I hint, I let her know that I would love to hear someday about ..., nothing.

How hard is it for a 46 year old woman to find a suitable marriage minded partner?

 

If I get nothing out of this crazy situation, I would love to understand why me if she cannot talk.

 

Thoughts?

 

Z

[Candy_Pants]

It's not you. She just sounds like the type who doesn't express themselves emotionally. Nothing you can do to help that.

[2sunny]

I know you're right. Actually, we've been here before (Mid December).

 

There is a pattern that will follow.

I'll be uncomfortable, a little distant.

She's ask "you're upset?", like a caring person would.

We'll talk / gently quarrel (mostly her denying or saying nothing).

She'll later turn up the heat (couple ILY texts, hump like bunnies) and the problem fades in the background.

Month or two of more attention (still no intimate words) then ... fade again.

Rinse and repeat.

 

What I don't understand is why she wants to get married because I don't understand for the life of me how someone can be so guarded on one side of their face, but push forward on the other?

Why would she risk sooooo much on saying "ILY" now and then rather than just "me too". I hint, I let her know that I would love to hear someday about ..., nothing.

How hard is it for a 46 year old woman to find a suitable marriage minded partner?

 

If I get nothing out of this crazy situation, I would love to understand why me if she cannot talk.

 

Thoughts?

 

Z

 

What's in her history ---> she obviously isn't intending to share with you.

 

What could affect a person on such a profound level? Hmmm

 

Abuse

Fear

More abuse

Her upbringing - she may have been sexually molested - by family or close friends of her family

 

Maybe not.

 

But the way she doesn't tell shows that it's outside the range of "normal communication" skills.

 

 

While in counseling - did the counselor dig deep with her to find out what her history looked like for her?

 

Were there any suggestions made that she was supposed to work on by participating differently with you?

 

What was she addressing with the counselor?

[Almond_Joy]

Hi Z,

 

Your follow up posts resonate so much with a chapter of my relationship that's only recently been put to rest. I hope that in sharing my experiences and thoughts you will find something to help you resolve the frustration and problem you're struggling with now.

 

Here is the kicker as I think Eivuwan was "picking up", is that I'm not that secure. I'm damaged goods after my divorce and the trigger density is a little thick. Fact is, is next to a serial cheater, an avoided is the worst person for me. Especially one that is a little bit narcissistic, has daddy issues (I think, but ... how can I know for sure) and has lied to me before. The combo makes me nervous as hell as they are such an easy mark for a player. Gullible, not too bright, narcissistic, hottie-wannabe but just ... isn't (cute and small who appears warm at first, but if you're empathic, you'll feel/see the wall within a couple hours).

 

Z

 

 

I've gone over your other posts in this thread....I don't know how I missed that you're a former BS, but I think that plays into this alot. My prior post was made without that knowledge. Again I see many similarities in your history and thinking to mine.

 

6 or 8 months into my current relationship, I found out the guy I was seeing before my current bf had been seeing the woman he left me for for months before he decided to break up with me. I had previously believed he met this woman and had a love at first sight thing happen and decided to break up to be with her.....whereas now I know he cheated.

 

Now I had had trouble with emotional intimacy/reciprocity with my bf since the beginning of this relationship. On top of that we didn't have the great physical intimacy that you two have. These things bothered me before I found out I was cheated on, but it wasn't a huge issue. AFTER I found out I was cheated on, this discrepancy beame a huge issue. A few months after we moved in together it took on dealbreaker status. Every time I felt emotionally disconnected/misaligned with my bf, I was convinced that he was hiding the emotional core of himself from me. I started thinking "I'm putting my heart on the line and he's only half invested, I'm going to get burned, I'm a placeholder, etc. etc."

 

I share all that to highlight that for me, the paranoia induced by cheating....made a difference that I could take or leave before into an area symptomatic of infidelity precursors as the relationship naturally progressed. ...I mean, have you ever had this emotional disconnect problem in prior relationships? And if so......did it upset you this much, where you felt the relationship cannot continue? I think it's important to discern if the desire for this is stemming from the effects of beng cheated on or just the pressure of gearing up for lifetime commitment or both....the latter motive is natural but any sign of the former motive would warrant.....a bit more regulation of that knee-jerk reaction of distrust/paranoia.

 

 

So she decided I needed help with my issues (more help to numb me into a false sense of security where I trust her so deeply, I'll forgive going ghost and gaslighting).

The therapist took months to call. I told her that I didn't want to go, but felt we should as we both have issues. She agreed at the time. Then then idiot therapist went ghost again and phoned two nights ago (phoned me this time). What bugged me, is that she will still go, because she wants to see me get help. So her somewhat acceptance that we both have issues went away, and I'm a sick dog again. I've been down this road before. When my sanity is put on trial to hide another persons indiscretions, it's one of the most horrible things that can be done to a partner.

 

I'm soooooo in denial. I've got 200 guests invited to a wedding in three months. Uggggh!

 

My problem is, is I love the woman and she very much wants to go through with it (guess that's how I got here).

 

Z

 

Ok....it's one thing to be protective of your emotional self....and another to try and deflect attention from that protectiveness by exploiting your partner's vulnerabilities. That is malicious behavior and makes me doubt if she ever REALLY wants a fulfilling healthy relationship with you. It sounds like that's what she did here. It's exacerbated by the lack of indicators here that she ever owned up to preying on vulnerabilities that you shared with her in confidence.

 

Maybe this is my natural skepticism kicking in, but with this info I would no longer suggest for you to put in so much effort in trying to get her to open up. She's gotten too comfortable with deflecting and avoiding opening up and seems hellbent on keeping that dynamic at the expense of your emotional security. You may have issues, but she's got something beyond run of the mill skepticism going on. I don't think this will get better with you tackling it on your own. She needs therapy. It sounds like whatever her ex did to her has put her on the defensive against men in a romantic capacity. So being that you're the intruder if that's the case....your efforts to "get in" will be seen as attacks as another poster pointed out. Maybe this distrust extends to anyone besides friends and family......if that's the case you'd have to decide if you want to get her family involved. That could end badly too, but it's an option.

 

 

We were in love supposedly, she went on a business trip and went ghost. When she came back, she appeared in half love with her colleague that she traveled with. I almost dumped her over it (long story to this one, not relevant for now).

 

I think this could be relevant to what's going on right now. What did you see in her behavior when she came back that led you to think she was taken with her colleague? Was she showing the emotional openness that you've been asking for all along to this colleague? It's passing strange that she would try and gaslight you over this if there was nothing going on there. I'm geting a sense that she may be using you in a way. She'll kiss and cuddle and has no problem being open physically, but keeps you at arm's length emotionally thereby preventing the relationship from evolving into something deeper.

 

As for my "fix", my trouble chapter in this area closing..... This is only my 3rd serious relationship, and the first that has ever progressed to this point (living together). I had a habit of placing all my emotional requirements on my bf to meet. I've learned to be more open with people I meet. This has helped me to generate more authentic friendships and generally my openness is reciprocated. And it's not that I don't have things that I only share with my bf now....but because of those other sources for emotional connection....I don't feel lonely when he can't reciprocate that emotional responsiveness. He is way less tense because that expectation is not so insistent, and actually seems more emotionally expressive to me. I'm happy and he says he is too.

[Zimber]

What's in her history ---> she obviously isn't intending to share with you.

 

What could affect a person on such a profound level? Hmmm

 

Abuse

Fear

More abuse

Her upbringing - she may have been sexually molested - by family or close friends of her family

 

Maybe not.

 

But the way she doesn't tell shows that it's outside the range of "normal communication" skills.

 

 

While in counseling - did the counselor dig deep with her to find out what her history looked like for her?

 

Were there any suggestions made that she was supposed to work on by participating differently with you?

 

What was she addressing with the counselor?

That's one of the difficulties with dealing with someone so shutdown is you typically only have speculation.

The odd tidbit or two that has been shared suggests that her ex huzbo used to rage at her for spending ...

Given that she's petite and has always been a ... "careful thinker" suggests she was shutdown regularly. She's very respectful of her now deceased father too, but the couple stories that did slip out doesn't paint him as a kind man. But who knows, my speculations could be way off.

 

We haven't been to therapy yet. I'm thinking I'm going to go through with it and not hold back. Maybe it will bring things to a head and the decision will be pulled out of my hands.

 

Z

 

Z

[Zimber]

A few months after we moved in together it took on dealbreaker status. Every time I felt emotionally disconnected/misaligned with my bf, I was convinced that he was hiding the emotional core of himself from me. I started thinking "I'm putting my heart on the line and he's only half invested, I'm going to get burned, I'm a placeholder, etc. etc."

I could have written this ... It has been 6 months since she moved in and I'm thinking the exact same thing. Except, I call myself a mannequin rather than a placeholder. I usually don't suspect her of hiding something from me but rather just not feeling it. She's closest to me after a friend or family member praises her on making a good catch. I often feel that I am a means for her to love her own self.

 

I share all that to highlight that for me, the paranoia induced by cheating....made a difference that I could take or leave before into an area symptomatic of infidelity precursors as the relationship naturally progressed. ...I mean, have you ever had this emotional disconnect problem in prior relationships?

No, never. They've all been typical(ish). This is my first encounter with an emotionally unavailable person. The women of my past serious relationships have all been quite ... fond of me.

 

I think it's important to discern if the desire for this is stemming from the effects of beng cheated on or just the pressure of gearing up for lifetime commitment or both....the latter motive is natural but any sign of the former motive would warrant.....a bit more regulation of that knee-jerk reaction of distrust/paranoia.

I would have to agree to this. I think my panic partially stems from a danger warning in my head. We've had some problems along the way (as touched on earlier). However, if I knew her better and she was open to me, I'd not be as jumpy.

 

Ok....it's one thing to be protective of your emotional self....and another to try and deflect attention from that protectiveness by exploiting your partner's vulnerabilities. That is malicious behavior and makes me doubt if she ever REALLY wants a fulfilling healthy relationship with you. It sounds like that's what she did here. It's exacerbated by the lack of indicators here that she ever owned up to preying on vulnerabilities that you shared with her in confidence.

Thank you! That's what I think. In the past I've worried that I've hooked myself up with a "controller". There are some symptoms, but then again, I suppose if I read the list I could qualify as well (which I'm not), so I didn't really put much extra thought in that direction.

 

Maybe this is my natural skepticism kicking in, but with this info I would no longer suggest for you to put in so much effort in trying to get her to open up. She's gotten too comfortable with deflecting and avoiding opening up and seems hellbent on keeping that dynamic at the expense of your emotional security. You may have issues, but she's got something beyond run of the mill skepticism going on. I don't think this will get better with you tackling it on your own. She needs therapy. It sounds like whatever her ex did to her has put her on the defensive against men in a romantic capacity. So being that you're the intruder if that's the case....your efforts to "get in" will be seen as attacks as another poster pointed out. Maybe this distrust extends to anyone besides friends and family......if that's the case you'd have to decide if you want to get her family involved. That could end badly too, but it's an option.

Regarding defense against men. I've called her on a thing she said a few times before it started to bug me "I'll never cry for another man". What does that mean anyway? How do you prevent that? When I asked her that exact question, I got the stare, then later it was explained to me that it was just a "figure of speech". Maybe, but not if it's repeated. To this day, I've not seen a tear. Not a one.

 

I think this could be relevant to what's going on right now. What did you see in her behavior when she came back that led you to think she was taken with her colleague? Was she showing the emotional openness that you've been asking for all along to this colleague? It's passing strange that she would try and gaslight you over this if there was nothing going on there. I'm geting a sense that she may be using you in a way. She'll kiss and cuddle and has no problem being open physically, but keeps you at arm's length emotionally thereby preventing the relationship from evolving into something deeper.

I think she got totally played. She went ghost the first three nights, then called, then missed her plane on the last day and had to take another (this chick is cheap, I never completely believed it, but ... chose too). Also, when she came back, she was quoting this guys comments about the Chilean people, how they always hold hands, bla bla bla. Worst, is I knew this guy from where I worked (he had left the company and joined hers a couple months prior). We were quite serious after 4 months (slept over at her place or mine), said how in love she was with me before she left ... she never named me to this bloke. By not identifying me when they talked about her relationship status, she only said she's "seeing someone" (or something like that. She should have said, oh, it's Zimber, I'm sure you know him. Many a meeting have I shared with his guy.

 

There were just a whole bunch of tells. There were more in the months to come. But ... he was/is a married man with young children. Ugly, but brags big living, fine wine and caviar ... Jewish / Russian status crap that she's a total sucker for. Bah! I get mad again just thinking about it!

 

As for my "fix", my trouble chapter in this area closing..... This is only my 3rd serious relationship, and the first that has ever progressed to this point (living together). I had a habit of placing all my emotional requirements on my bf to meet. I've learned to be more open with people I meet. This has helped me to generate more authentic friendships and generally my openness is reciprocated. And it's not that I don't have things that I only share with my bf now....but because of those other sources for emotional connection....I don't feel lonely when he can't reciprocate that emotional responsiveness. He is way less tense because that expectation is not so insistent, and actually seems more emotionally expressive to me. I'm happy and he says he is too.

I would love to see this happen with me and she, but I don't think I'm dealing with exactly the same thing as you.

 

I'm tall, good looking (for my age I suppose), fit, successful, drive a fancy car, own a fancy house in a big city (not the burbs), will be retired by 55, funny and ... codependent (what a freak'in combo) :s

 

She's short, cute, a little socially awkward, slow thinker (not stupid, just ... slow), and has wasted 15 years with men that never put a ring on her finger. Just used her for companionship and sex I suppose. But again, who knows. I do know that culturally, that if a woman is not married, she's perceived to be broken.

 

The one thing I know about myself, is I'll paint the worst scenario conceivable for any unknown situation. I've learned to slow down the judgement a bit, but it's hard. The cognitive thinking techniques kind of scare me as I fear that they will shut down my intuition and leave me a gullible / trusting putz ... ripe for blindsiding.

 

Z

[Lemonitaz]

She has mentioned that she doesn't want to talk about herself/past in the fear that I will someday use it against her.

 

 

^^^ This line jumps out at me. I'm not sure what to make of it though. Maybe that she is embarrassed about something in her past and feels you won't accept? Have you ever asked her to clarify about this specifically- what she means by this statement? Not sure you would get a clear answer but I find this statement curious why she would be concerned that you would someday use her information against her.

[Zimber]

She has mentioned that she doesn't want to talk about herself/past in the fear that I will someday use it against her.

 

 

^^^ This line jumps out at me. I'm not sure what to make of it though. Maybe that she is embarrassed about something in her past and feels you won't accept? Have you ever asked her to clarify about this specifically- what she means by this statement? Not sure you would get a clear answer but I find this statement curious why she would be concerned that you would someday use her information against her.

 

There are a couple definite tells here and a couple other possibilities....

 

Definite:

1) This dirty fighting tactic has been used against her in the past.

2) She doesn't trust me (or maybe anyone) enough to assume that they would not use this tactic.

 

Probable:

1) She has chosen to live life differently now and doesn't want me pointing at her past and saying, if it was OK for him, why not me.

2) She's scared as heck to be controlled, and this "ammunition" might put her in a box.

 

None horrible, but now for the BS neurotic, paranoid worst fear ...

1) She wants to be able to follow every whim without regard to her monogamous partner. Why not embrace the moment? BF/Huzbo is going to screw me over anyway. Any knowledge of her character in the past will not help her achieve that freedom.

 

I once called her out on her response about people cheating. My view on the subject is to dump your partner, fix it with your partner, but never betray your partner. So, the feelings I conveyed about that subject were quite absolute and negative. She would respond, "people cheat when they're unhappy" (which anyone from this forum knows, is not always the case). The message to me though was that she condoned cheating should she ... "feel like it" (and it wasn't her fault as she was ... unhappy). Initially it was too early to call her on this statement, but I did later, and she changed her tune as she knew this was a deal breaker for me.

 

See, this is the paranoid me speculating myself into singledom which I've worked hard to not do.

 

However, ignoring some of these oddities is starting to get me pretty anxious and anxiety will take me out.

 

BTW, sex happened this morning. Guess she needed to reconnect before I got too nutty. I am determined to break out of this pattern though as I get a little nuttier each time.

 

Z

[2sunny]

You haven't given any solid reason to marry this gal.

 

Is there any reason to consider marrying her?

 

 

Why not just leave the situation "as is" until a time when you know YOU have good reason to change it?

 

 

It appears she has given you reasons why she is in control, guarded and secretive - none of which are healthy, open and honest.

 

IF you are OK living around an emotionally closed off gal - then just continue until it's no longer "enough" for you.

[Eivuwan]

I don't know. The more you talk about your problems with her, the more I feel like you shouldn't get married anytime soon. Too many things to work out.

[Almond_Joy]

Regarding defense against men. I've called her on a thing she said a few times before it started to bug me "I'll never cry for another man". What does that mean anyway? How do you prevent that? When I asked her that exact question, I got the stare, then later it was explained to me that it was just a "figure of speech". Maybe, but not if it's repeated. To this day, I've not seen a tear. Not a one.

 

Yes, that raised a red flag when I read it also. ....Does anyone in her family have relationships with healthy intimacy? She herself has never had it, and if she's never gotten to see that kind of dynamic.....a "seeing is believing" approach might help make some headway. I would think it's a challenge for her to be motivated to change something about herself when she can't see what's in it for her in the end. Maybe a therapist or another woman outside of her culture can help her paint that picture?

 

I think she got totally played. She went ghost the first three nights, then called, then missed her plane on the last day and had to take another (this chick is cheap, I never completely believed it, but ... chose too). Also, when she came back, she was quoting this guys comments about the Chilean people, how they always hold hands, bla bla bla. Worst, is I knew this guy from where I worked (he had left the company and joined hers a couple months prior). We were quite serious after 4 months (slept over at her place or mine), said how in love she was with me before she left ... she never named me to this bloke. By not identifying me when they talked about her relationship status, she only said she's "seeing someone" (or something like that. She should have said, oh, it's Zimber, I'm sure you know him. Many a meeting have I shared with his guy.

 

There were just a whole bunch of tells. There were more in the months to come. But ... he was/is a married man with young children. Ugly, but brags big living, fine wine and caviar ... Jewish / Russian status crap that she's a total sucker for. Bah! I get mad again just thinking about it!

 

Yeah....I could see how that's over and done with now, sorry to rehash it. I don't know about those cultures much, but what of them you said she's attracted to here doesn't resonate with anything like emotional intimacy.

 

I would love to see this happen with me and she, but I don't think I'm dealing with exactly the same thing as you.

 

I'm tall, good looking (for my age I suppose), fit, successful, drive a fancy car, own a fancy house in a big city (not the burbs), will be retired by 55, funny and ... codependent (what a freak'in combo) :s

 

She's short, cute, a little socially awkward, slow thinker (not stupid, just ... slow), and has wasted 15 years with men that never put a ring on her finger. Just used her for companionship and sex I suppose. But again, who knows. I do know that culturally, that if a woman is not married, she's perceived to be broken.

 

The one thing I know about myself, is I'll paint the worst scenario conceivable for any unknown situation. I've learned to slow down the judgement a bit, but it's hard. The cognitive thinking techniques kind of scare me as I fear that they will shut down my intuition and leave me a gullible / trusting putz ... ripe for blindsiding.

 

Z

 

No, our situations are not the same. Expanding your friend network won't do anything for this problem.

 

Are you still debating whether this is a dealbreaker for you? As another poster mentioned, I think you should delay the marriage. Even if it turns out not to be a dealbreaker, I think it will take alot of work to accept this dynamic. At least give yourself some time to work on the bolded above without the pressure of marriage looming.

 

The delay will also likely show her that she can't keep this up and expect to get what she wants, which is basically what's been happening. Despite your concerns, loneliness, and frustration....at the end of the day she's still trotting right along to marriage which is a security she probably wants very much. That cultural pressure to marry will probably be enough to make her stay and really try to change this.

 

I have never been married, but my current relationship's on that track. I've had to give up a lot of my protectiveness to instill a solid foundation of trust in this relationship so that we can keep progressing and stay on that track. I've had to get some therapy sessions, and I've come here often to hash out my problems with helpful posters. It's been downright firghtening at times for me, and I don't think I would have found the courage in some situations to keep trying without a clear model of the endgoal and some encouragement from trusted friends. I really don't think she'll be able to see what a problem this is or what she can do to change it without some help from outside of the relationship.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Almond_Joy
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