JamesM Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) [personal conversation redacted] I do have to say that this has been thoroughly discussed. Cheating is wrong. No one is any more wired than the next fellow. Every one can find justification for their actions even if they are weak justifications. We all have a desire to cheat at some point (yes, Shepp...you too! joke). How we handle the desire determines who we are and what our future is. The article certainly has good points, but many points are weak and some are really ridiculous IMO. IMO even if one takes a thousand people and does a survey, the results are still not indicative of society as a whole. It may represent a segment but certainly not a large amount. Many other factors determine the results too. IMO this person has a bias that plays into the results. Edited January 18, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Another person blaming biology on their behavior rather than taking responsibility. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
nescafe1982 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I guess I should also add: I didn't pull the number 1000 out of the air. That was (last time I took a course in Soc Psych) the minimum acceptable sample size for a survey of this type. Now, all kinds of other factors involving the sample profile can mess up an experiment (for instance, limiting the profile of participants to one age group when the goal is to generalize beyond that age group). And most good experiments should have numbers much larger than 1000. But 1000 is the minimum acceptable sample size acknowledged by the research community. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Why are cheaters so opposed to the idea of having an honest open relationship? I don't get it. If they don't want monogamy why not just be honest about it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) [personal conversation redacted] Another person blaming biology on their behavior rather than taking responsibility. This is probably the best and shortest way to summarize the article. If we were biologically wired, then our society would probably not have developed as a monogamous society. Edited January 18, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheGuard13 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) Now I would have to agree with Red Robin....when I was your age, I would have agreed with you more. And while I applaud you still for your convictions and I hope they never change, my convictions and beliefs which in many ways parallel yours, are changed by time and experiences. Marriage is a funny thing. It brings out both the best and worst in us. Things we never thought we would do, we do. Things we thought we would always do, we don't. It is rare that anyone begins a marriage thinking they will cheat. In fact, 99% of all newly weds would agree with you...yet many of them will cheat or divorce in a few years or in a decade or two.<full quote snipped> Listen to this man. Edited January 18, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator No need for voluminous quote 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Haydn Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Nice one James. Ropes and on them leaps to mind. Well debated fella! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Shepp Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 We all have a desire to cheat at some point (yes, Shepp...you too! joke). I can't imagine it mate Would be like desiring soya sauce when it ruins the taste of my duck pancake and makes me sick - dunno which is worse! Beavering it up me! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
The Peanut Gallery Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Wow! What a topic! How did I stumble across this? I have to say, personally, I was about ready to off myself after reading the original post/study! Lord help me, I thought for SURE my husband of eight years was unfaithful to me, after I finished reading. I was considering confronting him - haha! So, imagine my relief when I read all these fantastic posts ... maybe their is life on this earth of men, after all! Thank-you all for speaking out! Marriage and cheating is a topic that is endless, and never-ending as it changes and evolves with each new union, and person. To define cheating is to define marriage. I assume that most of what we are considering is the western view of marriage - "Until death do us part"? However, consider those born and raised outside of what we might consider "civilized" society. In cultures where monogamy is never heard of, or expected, I suppose we would find a different study all together! Many people in this world are raised to be free of the intense subject of their sexuality. They are permitted to do as they wish, without being judged or scorned for their sexual actions. Even in a "relationship", which may serve to raise children, both parents may be free to come and go as they please. After all, it takes a village to raise the child, not the parents. Alternately, we have the more "common" (at least in this conversation) view of marriage, which entails rings, a contract, and only two people. This is the kind of arrangement I have been in for eight years now. I think we have both been faithful to each other! At least, I know I have, and despite what I just read in numbers, I think my husband has been true to me aswell. Marriage in this sense may have had purpose, such as beavers (good find!) at one point in time. Although, we could argue that this kind of relationship is no longer required for our survival, you could say that for some of us, it is necessary for our happiness! The most natural thing for any creature is to live like the beasts we are! We would live in holes, live off the earth, find mates for limited times, hunt, gather, and die in our little holes of infection or injury (if we were not eaten by something hungrier first). Most mammals do this, and we are nothing if not mammals. This would be natural! However, since we scampered out of caves, and took a look around at this vast earth, we have aspired to do better than other mammals. We lusted after gold, and wanted for power. We have walked on the moon, traveled by land, air, and sea. We have built structures that defy gravity, we have transplanted organs, and created life from cloning! None of this sounds very natural for any other lowly mammal. You could say then, that monogamy, is unnatural. But like walking on the moon, it is something we have dreamed about, something we have worked for, and something that some of us have been able to do - not all of us. Also, like scuba-diving (another unnatural thing, if you ask me!), monogamy is not for everyone! My husband loves to dive! I hate the idea of being so far away from an unlimited source of oxygen! So he has dreamed, and he has worked, and he has conquered the skills required to allow him to dive his way to ship wreck! That was his dream, not mine. I thought it all sounded unnatural! Haha! So too, monogamy is not for everyone. That is fine. However, my husband and I both set out with a dream of a monogamous relationship. So kudos to you who are in committed relationships, and have remained faithful! Kudos to you who have maintained open relationships, and found peace! I think either way, happiness is happiness. How we get to the point of happiness in our own lives, isn't the issue. I have personally chosen a monogamous relationship, but I can see the appeal, and understand the peace of those who have not. After we were engaged, my son-to-be-husband let it be known that he would like me to allow him to have a threesome! It came as a shock, and I told him that it was something I wouldn't feel comfortable with. I told him if it was something he wouldn't be able to live without, we should go our separate ways. I also promised him that if I ever got curious, and changed my mind, I would tell him. Marriage is something that changes, as the people involved in each marriage will change. We have had some tough times. Over the years we have gone trough some close calls. We have never had a threesome, and I don't think he has ever cheated on me sexually. However, our marriage is open and honest enough that if I ever felt like I could be in an open arrangement with him, all I have to do is talk to him about it. I think we are both curious about having sex with alternate people form time to time, but neither one of us would be willing to share the other with a third party! So we are empathetic towards our love for the other ... if that makes sense? Cheating (for instance, a person who goes behind the back of his or her partner and has a sexual experience without their partner's consent) is a sad reality for a couple that has lost the power of openness in communication. IMO Cheating (blindsiding me with another woman involved) in the relationship we have built, would be a deal breaker. I have told my husband that! However, if we talked about it first, and we BOTH agreed and wanted to try on other people for the sex, then we would have to re-write our understanding and agreement of our marriage. Again, this is a HUGE topic, and it is different per-person! Depending on where you were raised as a child, and who your partner (or partnersssss) is, you will see a completely definition of marriage, and then cheating. Why would anyone cheat? Well, each one of us is different. Ultimately though, we are after our own happiness. The sad truth is, sometimes we take the risk of sacrificing someone else's happiness to achieve our own. I wish you all the happiness you desire - however you may find it! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Monogamy is not a "system" - it's a choice!! No one is forced to take a vow of monogamy and faithfulness. Some people KNOW that they cannot be faithful and that is okay.... as long as they are not deceiving someone else and subjecting an unsuspecting partner to STDs. "Working outside the system", as you put it (or lying and wh****g around, as more accurately describes it) is immoral and extremely destructive. If someone does not want to be monogamous....fine. He/she should just have the cajones to be honest about it. Ditto. Monogamy is a choice you make. You don't HAVE to be monogamous. In the U.S. you can't be married legally to more than one person, but the state and no one else can stop you from having an open marriage or not marrying at all and engaging in various forms of multiple-partner relationship. Lots of people are down for that so if you are of that mind you can find others in the same boat. The problem is pretending to be monogamous and lying and sneaking around. Worse is almost every last male cheater I know believes in monogamy ---but only for the women in his life . That is, it isn't a case where he doesn't believe in monogamy and would be thrilled if his wife/gf were sleeping around, nope, they all would die if their wives/gfs were sleeping with other men too . Even some men who have mistresses and multiple other women want their harem to be sexually exclusive with them. So what does that say? It doesn't have any input as to why women cheat so that definitely weakens the argument and pretty much it seems like the age old: men need all kinds of sexual variety and even if they lie to get it, it's just a part of nature, don't be bothered, women don't need such things and women should continue being faithful to such men and not make a fuss as boys will be boys and it's just terrible of you to expect communication and honesty. Oh please. Edited January 18, 2014 by MissBee 3 Link to post Share on other sites
dreamingoftigers Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) [personal conversation redacted] In the end, we are all victims to our pathologies. Mine over the years have become quite ingrained and will now require some effort to modify and/or eradicate. Your pathology is not from "nature's wiring." It is more about "random reward, anxiety and chance." Sexual addiction follows the same brain patterning as gambling. Unfortunately for yourself, your pathology keeps you from deeply, honestly connecting with another human being. In essence, you are the lies you tell at the moment. It's a pretty dark place to be. It doesn't feel like it always with the "highs." But you definitely feel it when you realize that NO ONE truly knows you at all. Sometimes that feels grand and powerful. But mostly, it stinks. And you know in your heart that your current gamble and your money must mean more to you than your family, or else you would do anything to stop. Often seeking justification is a way that people with internal conflicts seek to have it "both ways." "It's okay if I blow up a bus because it's in the name of faith." "I am a good person. I give to charity. It doesn't matter that I steal office supplies from a mega-corporation." "It must've been a drunken stupor." Truly. If you want to, you can justify ANYTHING. And people often do. People who somewhere along the line figured their feelings entitled them to special privilege. People who get to the point where they feel they need their pathologies to hide their shame just to SURVIVE. Can't say that I am a stranger to that. BUT the "nature's wiring" is what most people recognize: a pathology and an excuse. An extreme justification for those who have not formed healthy relational coping habits. Edited January 18, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 1 Link to post Share on other sites
William Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Folks, there is no need to make this thread personal or discuss personal aspects or make lists or reference forum dynamics. It's a thread about an article and is placed in our General Relationship Forum. Focus on the article, its assertions, and debate and discuss the article. This thread has been edited. Thank you! Edited January 18, 2014 by William 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Zeroes Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I would say that each circumstance is different. Should a partner give half their assets to another partner who decided to stop having sex after however many years of marriage? Is that partner a gutless coward if he seeks a love and sex that he can't get at home? If a wife decides to gain 50 or 60 lbs and becomes disgustingly fat and unattractive, should the husband pay her to leave? Plus, in Western countries, family law is stacked against men, so we have to pay dearly, lose our families, etc to have a sex life. How high is the high horse you sit on? Some like to paint everyone with a broad brush on this site. So of course, the solution is to just cheat and make everything 100x more worse? Because most cheaters get found out sooner or later. No, the solution is to "man up"* and TALK to your wife about A) why she's gaining all that weight - whether it's self-inflicted laziness or a health issue, B) that you don't find it attractive and C) aren't happy in a sexless or loveless marriage and why it's this way, because, you know, it's possible that HE has let himself go too? Relationships/marriages are supposed to be based on trust and honesty above all. If there's no solution then it's time to end the relationship and separate. And, BTW, no. Stop listening to MRA rantings about Family Law/Alimony in Western countries/states. Their information is either really outdated or just flat out wrong, and they have a huge axe to grind with women in general. Alimony is actually rare these days. So, no, I still stand by affirmation that there's no excuse for cheating, full stop. * My disdain for those who cheat applies to both men and women who do it, it's not a gender war issue. Link to post Share on other sites
isisisweeping Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 My ex husband is polyamorous. Him and his girlfriends. It meant we couldn't be together, but he was honest and that's okay. Cheating is never, NEVER okay. If people don't like monogamy, they can be honest and not be monogamous. Cheating is just a disgusting behavior. Link to post Share on other sites
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