My mother

[Taramere]

I am having a similar dilemma with my brother and my mother. Their relationship becomes more and more drained by the day. My mum is an extremely emotional person, highly strung. While my brother is abrasive in manner and at times unnecessarily tenacious. I do tend to have to be mediator and it jars me because I understand both POVs. They seem to be at loggerheads all the time now.

 

Partly due to the fact that he didn't get as much attention or as much support in childhood than I did - through no fault of my mother or him. I had special needs so I tended to get more help - sometimes even to my chagrin. I did try to support my brother - I would take him to football, encouraged him to make music. My mother would do the same, she didn't play favorites at all, but she fussed over me a bit due to my perceived vulnerabilities, while my brother had to work stuff out on his own at times. Not exaggeratedly so, but it wasn't uncommon. Sometimes I had this beat over my head quite unfairly when I had problems, but I accepted that.

 

In a sense, having special needs has served you well in terms of how deeply you've had to analyse human dynamics in order to manage them. I think it's left you with an unusual degree of insight. I'm not an expert on autism, but my understanding is that it often accompanies exceptional talents. In some ways, perhaps, being the price you pay for having a talent.

 

Nowadays, he has a less than rosy view of mum and I have to tell him sometimes to calm down in the way he speaks to her. He doesn't relent, so it's an ongoing problem I am trying to make him aware of - while trying to make sure my mum doesn't over-stress. She has high blood pressure currently, a couple years ago she reached 200/99 which was scary so I would rather keep things somewhat tranquil!!!

 

They talk about types A and types B. A, presumably Alpha, is always touted as this superior thing - but B types probably live longer and more harmonious lives.

 

Tara, I think that the dynamic your brother has with your mother can be repaired but unfortunately cannot be forced. You getting caught in the middle is what they expect you to do, almost relying on your desire for peace as a sounding board for their anger. Sometimes, strategically removing yourself periodically can do wonders not just for you but for them too.

 

Yes. Both have this well of resentment that is pretty much bottomless, and I think you're right. Detaching myself for a bit will perhaps do them good - and it will certainly be good for me!

[turnera]

Thanks Emilia. I think some childhood things do tend to stick, however hard you try to shake them off. You think they're gone, but then when you find yourself under stress they can re-emerge.

There's a fascinating book about that called Emotional Alchemy. It's really helpful if you have those things popping up and want to get a handle on it.

[Emilia]

They seem to be at loggerheads all the time now.

Does your brother still live at home?

[Taramere]

There's a fascinating book about that called Emotional Alchemy. It's really helpful if you have those things popping up and want to get a handle on it.

 

 

I'm kind of veering towards me perhaps needing to think less rather than more about these things - and this thread has been really helpful in that respect. As far as your earlier comment about us all needing to be in counselling goes, I've had counselling and I certainly found it very helpful. My counsellor was excellent, and I'd tend to trust his comments - made in the final session - that we'd achieved what we'd set out to achieve. s far as my other family members are concerned, I have the feeling that encouraging them to get counselling could be counter-productive.

[ThaWholigan]

Does your brother still live at home?

Yes, we both do. He wants to move out though, he tends to always be out of the house. At one point, I never saw him because as soon as he started driving he was always out doing something - sometimes things he shouldn't be doing!

[GorillaTheater]

A little house-keeping first:

 

1) Taramere, you rock in every sense. You're very funny, awesomely articulate, and extremely insightful. As for those who don't like you, it certainly reflects far more on them than you. If my wife ever takes off, I'm showing up on your doorstep, so prepare yourself. What are the prerequisites for a restraining order in the UK?

 

2) I'm jealous because I've only recieved nastygrams from one person at LS. I'm clearly underachieving.

 

My MIL is much like your mom, at least as I understand it as you've described her: loving, loyal, and a bottomless well of negativity, to the point of grossly exaggerating the "bad" motives and acts of nearly everyone she comes into contact with, notably her own husband who as far as I'm concerned is the kindest, most gentle man I've known. She's successfully alienated her children, except for perhaps my wife. She lived with us for 6-or-so years (one of at least two instances where she's left my FIL for extended periods), and it was like 6 years of Boot Camp as far as emotionally grueling experiences.

 

I have the advantage of feeling no guilt by absolutely minimizing my time with her, but I understand that blood counts, and so do obligations towards parents. But some things are unfixable, and more broadly we have absolutely no control over outcomes in situations involving people other than ourselves. In my case, the desire (and inability) to control outcomes is the biggest source of frustration and worry in my life. To the extent this applies to you, let it go. Support your mom to the best of your ability, but let go of the outcome.

[Emilia]

I'm kind of veering towards me perhaps needing to think less rather than more about these things - and this thread has been really helpful in that respect.

Something worth considering. As much as I love LS I'm posting less and less (might not be obvious but it's the case). It's not so much that it gets depressing but perhaps there is such a thing as too much insight. Life loses its natural appeal if you see everything as cause and effect and rationalise it all.

[Mittens]

I am sorry you find yourself in this position.

 

I have a similar story with different details. I play the part of your brother.

 

My sister and I see the family obligation differently. No gender difference here, but I do not feel an obligation to solve all my parents problems.

 

Years ago I made a decision to distance myself from my parents to protect myself from the crazy behavior. After lots of "stuff" we are now at a point where it works for me, and it works for my father, but not my mother. You see I have a social relationship with my father (weather, sports) but my mother cannot be happy with a surface relationship and I do not trust them with my feelings.

 

Not sure if it helps to have someone who thinks more like your brother to discuss this with or not.

 

The only question I ask myself anymore is will I have regret. I make every decision on that, not on what my parents need. It sounds selfish, but I think of it as self preservation.

 

I am in the same position as you Taramere, and I have also taken the same path as her brother and It-is-what-it-is. My parents got married very young, only because my mother was pregnant with my older brother. My father turned 20 the day after he was born...

 

My mother is exactly the same as you describe yours, Taramere...except mine has added bitterness and vitriol because my father left her for another woman, 24 years ago. She's never made any attempt to make a decent life for herself, even though she was only 48 when the marriage ended. She has emotionally blackmailed both myself and my two brothers into having no contact with our father.

 

I went through my own divorce, at the age of 23, barely a year later. She provided absolutely no empathy or support. I made the mistake of renting a flat for us both...less than 6 months later I ended up having a massive nervous breakdown and attempted suicide, mainly due to the stress she was putting me under. The only thing my mother cared about was the fact that I was seeing a psychiatrist, and that I might 'discuss her with him'....

 

After that, I made the same decision as It-is-what-it-is. I am not my mother's counsellor, I'm not on this earth to solve her problems. It is not my fault if she refuses to get the help she so desperately needs. I am not going to risk my own mental and physical health again by subjecting myself to her vitriol and bitterness.

 

Taramere, your brother has good reasons for acting how he does. Try to understand the way he feels.

[Taramere]

A little house-keeping first:

 

1) Taramere, you rock in every sense. You're very funny, awesomely articulate, and extremely insightful. As for those who don't like you, it certainly reflects far more on them than you. If my wife ever takes off, I'm showing up on your doorstep, so prepare yourself. What are the prerequisites for a restraining order in the UK?

 

We call it an interdict, and I will be claiming the expenses of raising it against you!

 

2) I'm jealous because I've only recieved nastygrams from one person at LS. I'm clearly underachieving.

 

My MIL is much like your mom, at least as I understand it as you've described her: loving, loyal, and a bottomless well of negativity, to the point of grossly exaggerating the "bad" motives and acts of nearly everyone she comes into contact with, notably her own husband who as far as I'm concerned is the kindest, most gentle man I've known. She's successfully alienated her children, except for perhaps my wife. She lived with us for 6-or-so years (one of at least two instances where she's left my FIL for extended periods), and it was like 6 years of Boot Camp as far as emotionally grueling experiences.

 

Oh my God, re the bold. That is such a perfect summary of it! Jesus - 6 long years??

 

I mean this is the terrible thing. My mother is very loyal and loving. She would move heaven and earth for those she loves. She'll ask me "where did I go wrong??" and I'll tactfully try to tell her, in amongst all sorts of reassurances about her good qualities. She does, however, have this core to her whereby once somebody has crossed it she'll never forget or forgive them. I told her the other day that I know she has that about her, and I know she prides herself on it. Sees it as a strength - but that it's childish. She countered with "I'm too old to take the kind of crap your brother dishes out. Never seeing him again is about self preservation." So yeah, I suppose she just has to be left to that position she's adopted.

 

 

I have the advantage of feeling no guilt by absolutely minimizing my time with her, but I understand that blood counts, and so do obligations towards parents. But some things are unfixable, and more broadly we have absolutely no control over outcomes in situations involving people other than ourselves. In my case, the desire (and inability) to control outcomes is the biggest source of frustration and worry in my life. To the extent this applies to you, let it go. Support your mom to the best of your ability, but let go of the outcome.

 

Thanks GT. So often on this board we see advice that is about taking more responsibility - but sometimes we do actually need to take less of it in order for things to improve. It reminds me of the time I tried to grow a bonsai tree. I kept nurturing it and trying to help it grow. Then I got bored and left the thing. Weeks later, I was about to throw it out, but when I took the lid off the thing was beginning to flourish. I got all excited and started paring roots and attending to it like the books on bonsai growing advocated. It died the next day.

[Emilia]

It reminds me of the time I tried to grow a bonsai tree. I kept nurturing it and trying to help it grow. Then I got bored and left the thing. Weeks later, I was about to throw it out, but when I took the lid off the thing was beginning to flourish. I got all excited and started paring roots and attending to it like the books on bonsai growing advocated. It died the next day.

This is why I like you so much. Sometimes you remind me of amaysngrace too. A very unhealthy dark sense of humour :lmao:

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I don't know about you all but this is the most helpful thread on which I have participated.

 

Family dynamics are strange, but while I am not close with my mother, I do finally believe she has done the best she could with what she had at the time and I have given up the grudge.

 

If you ever have a chance (or make the chance) to discuss grudges with your niece, you should tell her that because something is in our history does not mean we need to continue to feel the anger and pain of it forever. It happened, can't change it, but you don't really even thing about it and you hold no anger about it.

 

We can't get there with everything, and I don't think it's the same as forgiveness exactly, rather acceptance? Dunno.

 

Well folks, I need to go back to work...carry on.

[Taramere]

I don't know about you all but this is the most helpful thread on which I have participated.

 

Family dynamics are strange, but while I am not close with my mother, I do finally believe she has done the best she could with what she had at the time and I have given up the grudge message. Remembering isn't the same as grudge-harbouring.

 

If you ever have a chance (or make the chance) to discuss grudges with your niece, you should tell her that because something is in our history does not mean we need to continue to feel the anger and pain of it forever. It happened, can't change it, but you don't really even thing about it and you hold no anger about it.

 

Thanks IIWII. I can't remember the substance of what I said to my niece - but it was along those lines. I'm not going to lie about how my finger got broken if people ask, but it's not some grudge I hold. Privately I think that my brother can't completely let go of his guilt about that, since it's a fairly visible memento of his previous bullying behaviour, and that accusing me of grudge bearing is a way of handling that guilt. In a way it's good that my niece provided me with the opportunity to give her the "it happened, and I'm not going to lie about how it happened, but it was a long time ago when we were kids and I don't hold a grudge."

 

I just had to edit. I tried to add "remembering isn't the same as grudge harbouring" and then I noticed you said exactly that! Or did I edit it in incorrectly? It's too hot, and the seagulls are too noisy for me to think straight any more.

 

We can't get there with everything, and I don't think it's the same as forgiveness exactly, rather acceptance? Dunno.

 

Well folks, I need to go back to work...carry on.

 

I've achieved nothing today! I'm supposed to be working from home, and this is what happens. I blame the seagulls for being so noisy and distracting me.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Taramere

[Taramere]

After that, I made the same decision as It-is-what-it-is. I am not my mother's counsellor, I'm not on this earth to solve her problems. It is not my fault if she refuses to get the help she so desperately needs. I am not going to risk my own mental and physical health again by subjecting myself to her vitriol and bitterness.

 

Taramere, your brother has good reasons for acting how he does. Try to understand the way he feels.

 

I feel as though I've spent a lifetime trying to understand the lot of them! But yeah, I understand what you're saying. Try to see the positives and necessary aspects of how he deals with this rather than focusing on the anger he holds against my mum that accompanies it.

[gaius]

I only came in here cause I saw you had posted Tara, then saw you started a whole thread!

 

Do you think you could get her on medication? Don't know how it works in the UK but I was able to get my grandmother on effexor by just going through her regular doctor and not involving a shrink. She's actually tolerable to be around when I get her to take it but she gives your mom a run for her money when she doesn't.

 

The only other thing I have to add is people might bring up the co-dependent word, but I can't imagine abandoning my family member who had done so much for me no matter how much stress they put me through. I don't think I could deal with the guilt. I would imagine some of your brothers insistence on you abandoning her as well is based a selfish motivation to justify his own actions. I hope things get better no matter what you decide to do.

[GorillaTheater]

I would imagine some of your brothers insistence on you abandoning her as well is based a selfish motivation to justify his own actions.

 

Insightful, and correct in my opinion.

[Taramere]

I only came in here cause I saw you had posted Tara, then saw you started a whole thread!

 

Do you think you could get her on medication? Don't know how it works in the UK but I was able to get my grandmother on effexor by just going through her regular doctor and not involving a shrink. She's actually tolerable to be around when I get her to take it but she gives your mom a run for her money when she doesn't.

 

God - it seems a little drastic, but who knows? Yes, GPs here can prescribe that sort of medication without involving psychiatrists. I did ask her to make a GP (general practitioner) appointment. She said she might. Although I talk of her being isolated, she's a fairly social person who can fairly turn on the charm, and she has excellent social skills when she wants.

 

It's a difficult situation to describe, but my brother tends to be a lot less social. He didn't go to university, and can sometimes be a bit chippy about this. He insists that my parents judge him for not having gone to university - but I don't recall them saying anything about it. He and his wife both have an element of inverted snobbery about them, whereas my mother can be a classic snob and that results in a big clash.

 

The only other thing I have to add is people might bring up the co-dependent word, but I can't imagine abandoning my family member who had done so much for me no matter how much stress they put me through. I don't think I could deal with the guilt. I would imagine some of your brothers insistence on you abandoning her as well is based a selfish motivation to justify his own actions. I hope things get better no matter what you decide to do.

 

Thanks Gaius - I hope so too. I would never abandon her. It's just a case of making sure that I'm not being swamped or dragged down too much when she's being negative.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

[quote name=gaius;5057763. The only other thing I have to add is people might bring up the co-dependent word' date=' but I can't imagine abandoning my family member who had done so much for me no matter how much stress they put me through. I don't think I could deal with the guilt. I would imagine some of your brothers insistence on you abandoning her as well is based a selfish motivation to justify his own actions. I hope things get better no matter what you decide to do.

 

So been rolling this around in my mind...

 

I mentioned before being a bit more like the brother, so I had to admit to myself that I probably did this, or a version of.

 

But to explain my thoughts at the time. I thought I was helping my sister keep from being taken advantage of. I did.

 

But my sister explains that she cannot bear to live with knowing they need for anything, the obligation or guilt whatever. And that she isn't being taken advantage of, whether I agree or not.

 

See I just don't feel responsible for them. I do not feel guilty about the situation at all. Maybe someday I would, which is why I say regret not guilt.

 

But if I am honest, and why not be honest on an anonymous forum. I probably thought I was more Right, if my sister felt the same.

 

Interesting

 

I need to go pretend to work some more.

[Radu]

*Radu gives Tara a big huuuuuuuug

Pls take out that restraining order against GT, just look how many teeth he has left ... and after living for 6yrs with a MIL that is of that type, i doubt his gears work perfectly, if you know what i mean.

 

Your thread is very insightfull and scary Tara.

Mostly because i recognize your mom's and brother's character in me.

I hold grudges of things over a certain limit forever, and i had a temper. I did and still do see things more towards black and white than grey.

My sister [younger by 2yrs] is much like you though, logical, calculated, dedicated and despite what our grandfather tried to do, she doesn't hold much of a grudge against me.

I'm afraid i would also qualify as a bit of a bully when i was younger, though i do remember her being able to dish it out well too.

There were times when i stood up for her though and she remembers those, so maybe it's not all bad.

 

I see no-one mentioned this so far, but your situation with your brother sounded like the golden child - bad child dynamic, with your brother being the golden child while you were the bad child.

Except that it wasn't to such an extreme.

 

It's an interesting dynamic because my grandpa also did it to my dad and uncle [older by 4yrs].

My uncle was always more reserved, harder to win over, so in a way his acceptance and attention were more important to my grandpa ... he was always like that, if you held your ground and didn't follow, he would be attracted to following you.

My dad was always always was the one who held the family together, took care of them when they were old, and even my uncle when he had cancer.

In fact, my mother once remarked to him that he strived to be a son more than he strived to be a father [not meant as a critic to him].

My grandpa also did the same to his grandkids.

My uncle's kids were always 1st class citizens the few rare times they came to visit, we became 2nd class citizens; and when it was just us, my sister was always the golden child.

 

All my advice at this point, would be to have a relationship with your brother and forget your parents.

Stop following your mother, and remove her hold on your life.

 

PS: Thank you for coming over to the dysfunctional side of LS, we have cookies and milk.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Radu

[Taramere]

*Radu gives Tara a big huuuuuuuug

Pls take out that restraining order against GT, just look how many teeth he has left ... and after living for 6yrs with a MIL that is of that type, i doubt his gears work perfectly, if you know what i mean.

 

I know. I suppose I could consider running away with GT (if his wife ever has enough and kicks him out) or, at least, not taking an interdict out against him - but only if he lets my dad come out of retirement and sort out his teeth first.

 

Your thread is very insightfull and scary Tara.

Mostly because i recognize your mom's and brother's character in me.

I hold grudges of things over a certain limit forever, and i had a temper. I did and still do see things more towards black and white than grey.

My sister [younger by 2yrs] is much like you though, logical, calculated, dedicated and despite what our grandfather tried to do, she doesn't hold much of a grudge against me.

I'm afraid i would also qualify as a bit of a bully when i was younger, though i do remember her being able to dish it out well too.

There were times when i stood up for her though and she remembers those, so maybe it's not all bad.

 

Sibling bullying is incredibly common. As are sibling fights. I think what parents have to look out for is the situation where there's a clear power imbalance (eg due to a significant age and size difference).

 

I see no-one mentioned this so far, but your situation with your brother sounded like the golden child - bad child dynamic, with your brother being the golden child while you were the bad child. Except that it wasn't to such an extreme.

 

I know. I think it's, again, a very common situation. It's like those partnership from hell situations you counter in workplaces and other environments. Best friends united against everybody else one minute, at eachothers throats the next - and God help anybody who gets caught up in the crossfire of any of it.

 

It's an interesting dynamic because my grandpa also did it to my dad and uncle [older by 4yrs].

My uncle was always more reserved, harder to win over, so in a way his acceptance and attention were more important to my grandpa ... he was always like that, if you held your ground and didn't follow, he would be attracted to following you.

My dad was always always was the one who held the family together, took care of them when they were old, and even my uncle when he had cancer.

In fact, my mother once remarked to him that he strived to be a son more than he strived to be a father [not meant as a critic to him].

My grandpa also did the same to his grandkids.

My uncle's kids were always 1st class citizens the few rare times they came to visit, we became 2nd class citizens; and when it was just us, my sister was always the golden child.

 

It's really sad the way people will drag children into those games.

 

All my advice at this point, would be to have a relationship with your brother and forget your parents.

Stop following your mother, and remove her hold on your life.

 

I wouldn't say I follow her. I'm very much my own person and I think always have been - and I'm not shy about telling her what I think of the situation. I think I'll just have to be forearmed with "distraction topics" when I spend time with either of them so that I can shift the focus away from the bitching sessions they (my brother and my mum) want to have with me.

 

PS: Thank you for coming over to the dysfunctional side of LS, we have cookies and milk.

 

I'll take the cookies, but yeuch to the milk! I wonder if there's anything fittingly Freudian in my dislike of milk, or if it's just related to the fact that they used to leave our free school milk out in the sun all morning...

[Taramere]

SSee I just don't feel responsible for them. I do not feel guilty about the situation at all. Maybe someday I would, which is why I say regret not guilt.

 

But if I am honest, and why not be honest on an anonymous forum. I probably thought I was more Right, if my sister felt the same.

 

That's a good insight. It's something people do all the time - demonise others or try to recruit others to share their negative feelings about a person in order to feel in the right. We talk about conflicts we're involved in and take pains to relay how "it's not just me, they fall out with people all the time/feuding with their neighbours/fall out with colleagues....it's them not me!!!" I think most of us do it at times.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

That's a good insight. It's something people do all the time - demonise others or try to recruit others to share their negative feelings about a person in order to feel in the right. We talk about conflicts we're involved in and take pains to relay how "it's not just me, they fall out with people all the time/feuding with their neighbours/fall out with colleagues....it's them not me!!!" I think most of us do it at times.

 

Yes...so that's more than enough self awareness for one day. If we keep chatting, you guys might even make me feel like calling Mom and listen to every darn electronic device on 11 and her acting like its the cell....

[Radu]

 

 

 

I'll take the cookies, but yeuch to the milk! I wonder if there's anything fittingly Freudian in my dislike of milk, or if it's just related to the fact that they used to leave our free school milk out in the sun all morning...

 

Freud would probably say it was linked to your sexuality ...

[Taramere]

I think the fact that I titled this "my mother" encourages people, in a way, to see her as the issue. When I started the thread, I'd spent a lot time listening to her being really negative - so it's not surprising that people have given me the advice they have given. Having discussed the situation with my brother more, however, I was truly shocked to hear the level of hatred he harbours towards my mother - and about our childhoods - that came out. It's ungrateful, unreasonable and reminiscent of a spoiled brat. He doesn't seem to have any cogent reasons for hating her. Nothing specific that she has done. It's more that he just blames her for anything and everything that has ever gone wrong in his life. Anything he has failed to accomplish - it's all down to her.

 

It was a side to him that I haven't seen since we were very young. Really aggressive, angry and downright hateful. He railed on about what a snob our mother is, and how she is contemptuous of him for not having gone to university. I've never, ever heard her say anything to suggest that. He certainly has a point that she can be snobbish and negative...and she's been particularly so lately, but to be honest I think in large part it's a coping mechanism. A reaction to her son rejecting her.

 

His wife comes from a poor background. There's a bit of a clash between our family and hers. I know there are times I've been looking after my niece and nephew and I've corrected their grammar. I always try to do it in a nice, light sort of way so as not to cause offence...but the fact is that they're picking up sloppy speech from their mother and her side of the family. I can't really correct them without indirectly insulting them and so now I just grit my teeth and say nothing when I hear the sloppy speech.

 

That's the clash, really. Her family think that our family are snobs, and we think that they're inverted snobs. My brother and his wife have "liked" me in a way that they don't like my mother, but only because I go out of my way to be self deprecating about anything I've accomplished in life and to mock myself for anything I say or do that might be perceived as "posh". That's something I haven't really recognised and faced up to until now....but the more I think about it, the more I've had to go out of my way to make myself sound dumber, lacking in confidence, self deprecating and generally beneath them in order to be acceptable. My mother refuses to do that, and that's her crime in their eyes. While I think she goes over the top and comes across as outright arrogant at times, a big part of me admires her for refusing to dumb down in order to be accepted by people who frankly will never accept her anyway.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Taramere

[Emilia]

Perhaps your mother's mistake was to spoil your brother so much that he was raised almost like an only child. They are the ones I've seen behave in such a chippy, passive-aggressive, self centred kind of way.

[Taramere]

Perhaps your mother's mistake was to spoil your brother so much that he was raised almost like an only child. They are the ones I've seen behave in such a chippy, passive-aggressive, self centred kind of way.

 

I think you are 100% right, Emilia.