To the lonely fed up single men - a woman's perspective on the same issues...

[GravityMan]

No, what I meant to say is that your prose, although very good in my opinion and some of the best I've seen on LS, makes you sound slightly douchey and uppity, and if you talk using the same higher vocabulary, sentence structure, and general tone, then I can see it being a turn-off to men.

 

That is true, and I think it holds true for both genders. It is why some highly educated and well-spoken men and women tend to "dumb it down" a bit when they're hanging out at the bar, party or other social venue with friends and other people.

 

Many people tend to dislike those who give off a vibe of elitism or a whiff of condescension, even if unintentional.

[tomhomme13]

Hey Phoenix,

 

It'll take quite a bit of arrogance and an over the top overbearing personality to even get me intimidated. So I'll bite. Would you consider dating a guy who isn't good looking?

[Suave]

I can identify with the OP. Never get too high or too low.

[PhoenixRysing]

Hey Phoenix,

 

It'll take quite a bit of arrogance and an over the top overbearing personality to even get me intimidated. So I'll bite. Would you consider dating a guy who isn't good looking?

 

Sure, in the past I have even dated a man who looked somewhat like a Fraggle - but he was funny!

 

Wait are you saying I am overbearing and arrogant? Way to a girls heart...

 

I guess beggars can't be choosers though. Are you hung at least? A gal has to have some standards.

 

I can identify with the OP. Never get too high or too low.

 

I have taken this in all the ways you meant it, identified with it, over-analyzed it and come to the conclusion that you only want to get in my pants.

[Woggle]

Many men are able to compartmentalize their lives where they are tough as nails in their profession but loving husbands and fathers in their personal lives. They separate the two worlds. Do you think you would be able to do that? I am not saying you should change but I don't think most people male or female want somebody that is always in work mode.

 

Like I said before it is a shame that some men can't see the fact that women who have the tough exterior can often be the most loyal and loving and when they are with you you know why they are there. It's the ones that put on a helpless front that tend to turn on a man in a heartbeat and go for the jugular.

[tomhomme13]

Sure, in the past I have even dated a man who looked somewhat like a Fraggle - but he was funny!

 

Wait are you saying I am overbearing and arrogant? Way to a girls heart...

 

I guess beggars can't be choosers though. Are you hung at least? A gal has to have some standards.

 

I don't know whether you are arrogant or overbearing. It's really hard for me to imagine anyone to be intimidating unless they *are* arrogant and *overbearing*. And I wouldn't even call them intimidating -- they are just jack*sses. Anyhow, I was in the military and I've seen all sorts. So unless you are a jack*ss, you might actually be an interesting person to date.

 

Although it has to be said that it takes quite a bit to impress me

[PhoenixRysing]

Many men are able to compartmentalize their lives where they are tough as nails in their profession but loving husbands and fathers in their personal lives. They separate the two worlds. Do you think you would be able to do that? I am not saying you should change but I don't think most people male or female want somebody that is always in work mode.

 

Like I said before it is a shame that some men can't see the fact that women who have the tough exterior can often be the most loyal and loving and when they are with you you know why they are there. It's the ones that put on a helpless front that tend to turn on a man in a heartbeat and go for the jugular.

 

Woggle, this is definitely a fair question. And yes, I can and do turn it off. I am divorced now but helped to raise my step-daughter and foster daughter (who are now fully functional adults in their own rights) and in college I helped raise my roommates infant. When I love, I love deeply and tend to go the opposite direction with my personal life once I have one...I spend all day and sometimes evenings having to be on, so when I come home I want to turn that off and turn on the nurturing side. I actually think this is part of my problem sometimes. Even if a man could/would see past the outer shell, I think he might be confounded but just how tender the core is...men seem to fall for the tender side of me when met outside of work and be aghast at the work side of me or exactly the opposite.

 

I think it is hard to imagine that someone is really both...even though as you mention we see fathers/husbands doing it every day. I don't really know, I am just speculating.

 

I don't know whether you are arrogant or overbearing. It's really hard for me to imagine anyone to be intimidating unless they *are* arrogant and *overbearing*. And I wouldn't even call them intimidating -- they are just jack*sses. Anyhow, I was in the military and I've seen all sorts. So unless you are a jack*ss, you might actually be an interesting person to date.

 

Although it has to be said that it takes quite a bit to impress me

 

My ex-husband was a former marine...likely you and I would do well.

[MsSmurf]

Well the underlying achievement here is understanding and gaining empathy with women, i.e., learning that their desires and values are not the same as men's desires and values. When you are able to stop projecting what you think is attractive to what women think is attractive, then you can adapt yourself to be desirable to them.

 

The problem with that lack of empathy and understanding is that men will try to change traits about themselves which men find desirable, rather than improve traits which women find desirable. And it's no different for women. When you're able to realize what men are really looking for, then they are one step closer to success.

 

So bottom line, I agree.

 

So if a woman/man finds out what traits men/women find desirable and then makes the appropriate changes within themselves to appeal to those desires, but still is unsuccessful in dating/relationships/finding love what then?

[MsSmurf]

this is complete and utter nonsense, the idea of a trainer girlfriend, or boyfriend. most relationships don't end in marriage whether its the first or the fiftieth. some get lucky and the first relationship leads to marriage while others go through dozens and are still single. this utter nonsense, my friend, is why late bloomers feel lost and hopeless. you put too much emphasis on all this. a late bloomer who is say 33, still has 33 years of life experience and isn't anything like a 15 year old.

 

Not saying I agree or disagree with the concept, but it does remind me of the concept of a starter marriage. I think for some people this experience is very valid and for others it is unfathomable.

[MsSmurf]

its up to each of us individually not to fall into those stereotypes, which often don't even correspond to averages. people fall into them too easily. heck, i have and then have had to remind myself, not to.

 

what just gets me are when something happens with a certain type of guy one time, the woman will never date someone of that type ever again. even three times isn't much. now if its 74 times, yeah there's quite the pattern.

 

I think some of this is about an individuals tolerance level for something that doesn't seem to be working and the desire to not waste time on something that isn't working. Sure one experience is just one experience, but I personally do not have the patience for 74 crappy experiences with the same thing to decide I need to change my strategy. For me a dozen crappy experiences is all I need to create a new filter to reject potential candidates.

 

Now that isn't always a permanent thing, sometimes its more like burn out so I eliminate said quality that led to said crappy experiences for a couple of years and then may give it a try again. Sometimes I find out things are different and that quality is just fine now and other times I find out it still leads to crappy experiences and resume filtering it out.

[tomhomme13]

 

 

My ex-husband was a former marine...likely you and I would do well.

 

Semper fi!

 

I must admit I was intrigued, but I don't date divorcees.

 

Well, that's that :-)

[Suave]

I have taken this in all the ways you meant it, identified with it, over-analyzed it and come to the conclusion that you only want to get in my pants.

 

Story of my life lately.

[PhoenixRysing]

Semper fi!

 

I must admit I was intrigued, but I don't date divorcees.

 

Well, that's that :-)

 

And people say women have it easy and our standards are too high...

 

Story of my life lately.

 

I feel ya. I just got dumped by Tomhomme...

[tomhomme13]

And people say women have it easy and our standards are too high...

 

 

 

I feel ya. I just got dumped by Tomhomme...

 

Haha, TomHomme is an arrogant SOB anyway, it'll save you a lot of heartache

Edited May 27, 2013 by tomhomme13

[PhoenixRysing]

Haha, TomHomme is an arrogant SOB anyway, it'll save you a lot of heartache

 

And they say chivalry is dead. Thanks for saving me from myself.

[PhoenixRysing]

So if a woman/man finds out what traits men/women find desirable and then makes the appropriate changes within themselves to appeal to those desires, but still is unsuccessful in dating/relationships/finding love what then?

 

Interesting question. I guess my question is, how much should we change? When we do change and it still isn't enough - when do we just let go of the fantasy? The same friend/lover who I spoke of earlier in the thread told me how he deals with this issue. I asked him what do you do when you realize you can't have/will never have what you really want...

 

His answer, "Change what you want."

 

Full of wisdom that one.

 

So how does one change what she wants?

[MsSmurf]

Interesting question. I guess my question is, how much should we change? When we do change and it still isn't enough - when do we just let go of the fantasy? The same friend/lover who I spoke of earlier in the thread told me how he deals with this issue. I asked him what do you do when you realize you can't have/will never have what you really want...

 

His answer, "Change what you want."

 

Full of wisdom that one.

 

So how does one change what she wants?

 

This sounds like settling to me. That may work for some people, but not everyone otherwise everyone would be paired up.

[PhoenixRysing]

This sounds like settling to me. That may work for some people, but not everyone otherwise everyone would be paired up.

 

In my case I actually think he meant to change my desire for a relationship/family/love at all. He basically was telling me to be happy with what I have and want that...especially if that is all I can have. I am not sure he is too far from the mark. I will not settle for a man for either his benefit or mine - then we both miss out on someone we could be appreciated by. Meanwhile, if there are no men, then perhaps it is time for me to let it go. I am not convinced he wasn't right. I do have a good - hell a great life...albeit an incredibly lonely one. Lamenting what is missing could cause me to miss what already is...

[Blue Toast]

I keep reading posts from the number of men who have never had a girlfriend or who believe they will never find love. Conversely, whenever women post here that are having a hard time, the invariable argument is to compare the number of desperate male posts to the number of desperate female posts and thus to draw the conclusion that women have an easier time in the dating world and should not complain since they can get laid any time they want.

 

I am here to tell you two things, one that is completely ridiculous, and two, that it is in most cases true. I want to shed a little light on what I think might be going on.

 

I have spent a lot of time being both incredibly admired and incredibly lonely. In my lifetime I have never had a man pursue me or ask me on a date. I have always been the initiator. Contrast that to the fact that most people in my life have in some way, shape, or form told me I was attractive. The argument therefore goes that men are intimidated by me and thus do not ask me out. Heard that one more times than I count – “You are intelligent, strong, beautiful, sexy, and successful – that is scary to men.” In my head, I call bull every time and finally I decided to take it out of my head and into reality. I asked my friends just to be truthful with me – tell me I am hideous or stink, or whatever it is that is proving a man repellant. To that, they invariably repeat, “You are intelligent, strong, beautiful, sexy, and successful – that is scary to men.”

 

The funny thing is, it really doesn’t make a darned bit of difference. I could be stinky, disgusting, and hideous, or I could be gorgeous, awesome, and intimidating. The net effect to me is the same. I am alone. I will readily admit before I am asked, that yes – I can get laid. And I have. When the loneliness is too much and I am craving human touch to feel like I even exist, there are any number of men willing to step in and give me an evening of…human touch. Some of them have even mastered making it feel meaningful despite their intent to go home and forget I ever existed until the next time I am so desperate that any human contact will do…and I call.

 

So why am I posting? Because many of you think this is proof that women have it easier than you. I want you to know that there are women like me that don’t post because you think this. Instead, we sit and internalize. We wonder why if we are supposed to have it so easy there is no one there. We wonder if this means we are defective and why we don’t experience the life so many assume we have.

 

And we also know that if we post our desperation and despair we will either be called out by some of the guys here who think we should be happy because we can get laid, or even more painful – demonized by the stronger better versions of ourselves that post here telling us to suck it up and say “Next” when the men we want don’t want us back.

 

Honestly, I wish I was that woman. I wish I had the strength of character that several of the strong female posters here have to not let the constant loneliness tear me apart. Or at least that I possessed the ability to enjoy a one night stand as so many men seem to think would make it all better. As it stands, I spend my life devoid of intimate male contact until the pain of being alone trumps the inevitable pain I know I will experience when my lover for the night decides never to call me again. Here me – I do actually know that will happen – I am not stupid or deluded by the players. I know each time I engage in "sex with the ex" that it will not change a damned thing about him not wanting me as anything more than a booty call. So when I do call, it is because the pain of loneliness in the present moment has overcome the pain of what I know the next day will bring.

 

So why am I posting? I guess I just hoped it would finally dawn on some of the men here that being a single woman is not a cake walk - that we are lonely and hurting and desperate. Yes, I said it. I admit it. I am desperate…and afraid. This is what drives me to do the things you all call stupid and silly. Unfortunately, each time I give in to the pain for momentary surcease, I am simply reminded that I am and will only ever be - a phuk. I am also posting for the other women who might feel as I do, that they must be broken or worthless because no one seems to want to love them...and are too afraid to admit that frankly, they do need it to feel complete. We do need to be held, and cherished, and adored but somehow our society has warped this into embarrassment and shame.

 

I am standing up and confessing, I am not immune to the desire and the need for connection - connection with a man.

 

I mentioned earlier that I had as of late been on a mission to understand why I was not loved or chased, even though I do get admired. I actually did finally get my answer. It came in the form of a candid friend/lover when I asked him directly to tell me why I wasn’t loved or apparently why I could never be loved. To his credit, as uncomfortable as it might have been for him, he looked me dead in the eyes and finally told me the truth, a truth so many others have danced around and in doing so, confirmed a thought I had begun to form. I am, as I stand today, actually unlovable.

 

All my life I have been taught to be strong, to be confident, and to succeed in a man’s world and how to not bend in the face of adversity so that I could do so. And truly – I am that...and I have succeeded in a career dominated by the boys club. Unfortunately, the very traits that have made me successful have also doomed me to a lifetime without love. My friend/lover told me that it is evident to all the men in my circle that I have a “sword and shield” at the ready at all times – and while they respect it, admire it, and yield to it, they will not love it.

 

In other words, I am, for all intents and purposes, a man. Since I am attractive and by appearance female, they can get past this long enough to sleep with me, but they will never be inspired to be with me, to champion me, to love me...as that, my sword and shield will handle without them.

 

Meanwhile, after periods of celibacy and no human touch, I turn in desperation to a single night. A night that yes I can have with many or perhaps any of them. A night that provides a momentary salve to the pain of loneliness but then adds molten silver to the sword and shield I will inevitably carry the next day.

 

I guess my point to my single brethren is – never assume. Never assume the single (even if hot) girl is not desperate. Never assume that she dates continuously and simply picks and chooses between the men throwing themselves at her feet. For every assumption you make, I guarantee there is at least one counterpoint in the form of a woman like me. One who feels the loneliness you feel and doesn’t post for fear of being picked apart – either because she can “at least get laid” or because she knows her sistren will tell her “ to buck up and not need a man for happiness” – which when done, simply adds to the self-perpetuating shield that causes her to never have the love for which she actually yearns.

 

I am tired of being quiet. I am tired of being misunderstood. I am tired of not admitting that I need to be seen, to be loved, to be cherished. I am tired of living a life where I am lauded for my strength and in parallel missing out on the one thing I want most. All of my matched up girlfriends tell me how great they think I am and wish they had my strength. Then they go home to the men that adore them and I go home to my dog and a computer screen. So yes, I can get laid, and yes I am just as desperate as the men here that can’t. So we have come full circle. Assumptions about the easy life of at least one single woman are both completely true, and completely ridiculous.

I am nearing 45 years of age and EVERY woman has rejected me. No relationships, no sex, no kisses, no to everything. I don't even want to hear the words "nice guy" again in my life because I've been called this so much. There's no meaning. I don't get these one night stand sex breaks. I'd ****ing kill for just one, but I'm under no illusions. They aren't coming ever. I'll take anything. They said my standards were too high so I tried for years with mostly unemployed or underemployed BBW and I did no better. Rejection. Every time. I've been beaten down to nothing and my depression has messed up nearly every aspect of my life. I guarantee you'd reject me just as fast as the rest do. Want to trade places with me?

[Treasa]

Oh, you sweet love. I want to hug you so much right now and tell you how awesome you are for writing such a beautiful, eloquent post.

 

I used to feel like you. I really did. At some point, and it wasn't terribly long ago, I asked myself what one single guy could give me that I couldn't give myself. I honestly still haven't seen a guy love me and cherish me more than I love and cherish myself. And I don't want to spend my life going from honeymoon phase to honeymoon phase with different men.

 

I'm choosing to stay single, and to be happy, and to absolutely love myself.

 

You are very lovable. Please don't ever feel demonized or ashamed to admit the truth. Also, please don't assume that you will always feel this way, and that a relationship is the only way to feel the validation and love that you want to feel.

 

I'm always here if you need someone.

[ScreamingTrees]

After having read maybe three or four paragraphs of the OP.. The only difference between you and the struggling guys is that in spite of you feeling you're on the same page as these fellows, you can still engage in "the touch of another"... Be that a one night stand, or whatever you want to call it..

 

Not that your struggles are any lesser than these guys, but.. I guess you can at least take comfort in that fact, that you are able to (and willingly partake in) engage others, even if they are not ideal.. Even if it's (to you) like saying "well, at least I'm not a starving child in a third world country.." A silly comparison, but you get the point nonetheless..

 

You obviously do it because to some extent, you enjoy it. I'm willing to bet that the average struggling male is less likely to have this consensual luxury. Sure, some of them, maybe even a lot of them don't try. Who knows..

 

But it seems that for every male who doesn't even seem to try, there's a female who can't find a "good" guy who has an army FWBs on the side.

 

And those FWBs ain't any of her male counterparts, that's for sure!

Edited May 28, 2013 by ScreamingTrees

[Els]

Interesting question. I guess my question is, how much should we change? When we do change and it still isn't enough - when do we just let go of the fantasy? The same friend/lover who I spoke of earlier in the thread told me how he deals with this issue. I asked him what do you do when you realize you can't have/will never have what you really want...

 

His answer, "Change what you want."

 

Full of wisdom that one.

 

So how does one change what she wants?

 

I think this might work to an extent if you have an arbitrary list of traits like "above 6'2"", "earns more than 150k/year" etc.

 

But when it comes to something that's as important as connection, how do you change that? Should you? I'm leaning towards no.

[Treasa]

After having read maybe three or four paragraphs of the OP.. The only difference between you and the struggling guys is that in spite of you feeling you're on the same page as these fellows, you can still engage in "the touch of another"... Be that a one night stand, or whatever you want to call it..

 

Not that your struggles are any lesser than these guys, but.. I guess you can at least take comfort in that fact, that you are able to (and willingly partake in) engage others, even if they are not ideal.. Even if it's (to you) like saying "well, at least I'm not a starving child in a third world country.." A silly comparison, but you get the point nonetheless..

 

You obviously do it because to some extent, you enjoy it. I'm willing to bet that the average struggling male is less likely to have this consensual luxury. Sure, some of them, maybe even a lot of them don't try. Who knows..

 

But it seems that for every male who doesn't even seem to try, there's a female who can't find a "good" guy who has an army FWBs on the side.

 

And those FWBs ain't any of her male counterparts, that's for sure!

 

I agree, but keep in mind that sex is more than just sex to a lot of women. A lot of us can't emotionally disengage like a lot of men apparently can. Sometimes the sex and the aftermath just cause more pain.

[ScreamingTrees]

I agree, but keep in mind that sex is more than just sex to a lot of women. A lot of us can't emotionally disengage like a lot of men apparently can. Sometimes the sex and the aftermath just cause more pain.

 

True, but I honestly feel the same way. I don't know if casual sex would literally cause me distress, unless I realize that it wasn't pleasant or comfortable for the other party, but I wouldn't feel bad about it.. Nor would I expect the other person to feel bad about it. I would rather have sex with one person that I can develop something with.. That would be infinitely more rewarding to me.. But hey, we all have desires from time to time.. Perhaps it's the fact that the OP self describes as quite a bit more masculine than most women?

[Woggle]

I just don't see how the OP should have to change her personality. Very successful women like the Marissa Myers, Cheryl Sandburg and also politicians and celebrities manage to have long and happy marriages without giving up their ambition. In fact educated and successful women get married more often and get divorced less. It's not like it was a few decades ago when people thought a woman needed to choose between success and a relationship.