To the lonely fed up single men - a woman's perspective on the same issues...

[fortyninethousand322]

Eh, I tried that and the guy got such an ego boost from being with me that his confidence sky-rocketed (plus I gave him a great makeover), he was suddenly able to attract all kinds of women. He left me in the dust That's why I stay away from struggling guys now.

 

Well that's interesting. I've never heard of that happening. I can understand how frustrating that would be.

 

My theory is more along the lines of women (even the struggling ones, maybe even especially the struggling ones) see a struggling guy and go "ew". And never date him in the first place. I don't think they are turned off because he's a struggling guy, I think there are traits about him that are turnoffs which have caused his struggling...

[fortyninethousand322]

Because these two groups aren't the target of the other. I believe in the top 25% theory (number is arbitrary), where all women strive for the top 25% of men and all men strive for the top 25% of women. So the bottom halves don't find each other simply because they aren't looking for each other. The bottom halves essentially do not exist for dating purposes in the minds of the other gender.

 

Do you think this is done consciously, or subconsciously? Or a bit of both?

[USMCHokie]

generalizing off of one guy isn't a good thing imo.

 

Women can be fixer uppers as well. Her situation is not uncommon. I'd probably be a good example of a potential fixer-upper...

[ThaWholigan]

But then this is under the premise that I think women have it easy. Which I never said.

I know that . I wasn't necessarily referring to you.

[USMCHokie]

Do you think this is done consciously, or subconsciously? Or a bit of both?

 

I think a lot of both.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I wonder if OP goes out and socializes much. I know that my no 1 obstacle to meeting men is that I hermitize myself at home with my cat nearly all the time. I go out "out" once a month and sliding towards once in 2 months lately

[PhoenixRysing]

Well that's interesting. I've never heard of that happening. I can understand how frustrating that would be.

 

My theory is more along the lines of women (even the struggling ones, maybe even especially the struggling ones) see a struggling guy and go "ew". And never date him in the first place. I don't think they are turned off because he's a struggling guy, I think there are traits about him that are turnoffs which have caused his struggling...

 

I agree. I struggle with men not because I have always struggled, but because my personality turns them off as a lover. The very traits that empower me at work - that are viewed as strengths (strong - bordering on over the top work ethic, powerful presence, expansive vocabulary, etc.) are the same traits that tend to make men feel less like protecting me and more like competing with me. It's a good thing at the office and a bad thing at the bar!

 

Similarly I think a lot of the struggling guys here share traits that do not appeal to women as a whole. Shyness - while not a bad thing, means you never approach. Quietness - while appreciated in some contexts means you are not seen. Insecurity - while understandable is more likely to inspire the mother in us than the lover.

 

Is this fair? No. We should all be respected for who we are. Is it real? Absolutely.

[AD1980]

I agree women can go through the same things..I think when you're struggling its not easy to look at the other sides struggle when you're caught up in your own struggle..

 

All i see form my perspective is rejection time and time again..I see men having to do all the approaching while women sit back and judge and reject..

 

I dont think of the women who never get approached or who do approach and get rejected as well..

[USMCHokie]

i don't personally believe its that common. what i think is she may have taken the break up more personally because she was his first, which is unfortunate.

 

This is true...which is one reason why women don't want to be a guy's "trainer girlfriend" (as my first ex called herself at some point)...especially with the guys who are late bloomers...when you don't jump into the dating game until much later in life, you have NO IDEA where you stand, and oftentimes, you're a lot better off than you think you are...so when you get that first girlfriend, things change...you change...your mind changes...and it's easy for a lot of those guys to think they can "do better"...and so they go off for greener pastures...

[PhoenixRysing]

I wonder if OP goes out and socializes much. I know that my no 1 obstacle to meeting men is that I hermitize myself at home with my cat nearly all the time. I go out "out" once a month and sliding towards once in 2 months lately

 

Hi ES. I socialize quite a bit - too much likely. I confess though that 90% of this socializing is done through work. Working the hours that I do in the job that I do, means a lot of evenings having dinners with vendors, cocktail hours with coworkers, and even weekends spent traveling. So while I am out and about, I am largely preoccupied with work. Again one of those things that makes me successful in my career and kills my potential for love. Men are certainly not going to approach me when I am surrounded by 10 other men at all times. And when I do approach a man, once we start dating, most are put off by the amount of time I spend socializing with other men.

[PhoenixRysing]

Eh, I tried that and the guy got such an ego boost from being with me that his confidence sky-rocketed (plus I gave him a great makeover), he was suddenly able to attract all kinds of women. He left me in the dust That's why I stay away from struggling guys now.

 

That has been my experience as well. Either this, or the differences in lifestyle have led to more insecurity and my inability to get past his hangups about being a "free loader" or "not good enough". Again, not me making that call, but the fixer uppers tend to either get fixed up and leave, or never come to terms with my interest in them as people.

[USMCHokie]

Hi ES. I socialize quite a bit - too much likely. I confess though that 90% of this socializing is done through work. Working the hours that I do in the job that I do, means a lot of evenings having dinners with vendors, cocktail hours with coworkers, and even weekends spent traveling. So while I am out and about, I am largely preoccupied with work. Again one of those things that makes me successful in my career and kills my potential for love. Men are certainly not going to approach me when I am surrounded by 10 other men at all times. And when I do approach a man, once we start dating, most are put off by the amount of time I spend socializing with other men.

 

You need to develop social circles outside of work.

[Revolver]

This is true...which is one reason why women don't want to be a guy's "trainer girlfriend" (as my first ex called herself at some point)...especially with the guys who are late bloomers...when you don't jump into the dating game until much later in life, you have NO IDEA where you stand, and oftentimes, you're a lot better off than you think you are...so when you get that first girlfriend, things change...you change...your mind changes...and it's easy for a lot of those guys to think they can "do better"...and so they go off for greener pastures...

 

Youd be surprised how cocky and arrogant those guys get after that first girlfriend

[Eternal Sunshine]

Hi ES. I socialize quite a bit - too much likely. I confess though that 90% of this socializing is done through work. Working the hours that I do in the job that I do, means a lot of evenings having dinners with vendors, cocktail hours with coworkers, and even weekends spent traveling. So while I am out and about, I am largely preoccupied with work. Again one of those things that makes me successful in my career and kills my potential for love. Men are certainly not going to approach me when I am surrounded by 10 other men at all times. And when I do approach a man, once we start dating, most are put off by the amount of time I spend socializing with other men.

 

There is one of your problems; that is if men from work and not viable dating prospects. Unfortunately, energy/time are finite and spending too much on one aspect means you skimp on another. In my experience, men will very rarely "cold approach" you when you go about your normal life and set-up is not right for it.

[PhoenixRysing]

You need to develop social circles outside of work.

 

If I want to find love yes I agree. Again the difficulty is that means ignoring the social activities of my job and thus decreasing my career advancement opportunities. It boils down to the same thing, how much can I give up in the pursuit of being loved, without reducing the success of something that I love.

[USMCHokie]

If I want to find love yes I agree. Again the difficulty is that means ignoring the social activities of my job and thus decreasing my career advancement opportunities. It boils down to the same thing, how much can I give up in the pursuit of being loved, without reducing the success of something that I love.

 

Indeed it is. Perhaps you're overestimating how much time you actually need to be at your job to get that same career advancement...? Law of diminishing returns...?

[PhoenixRysing]

There is one of your problems; that is if men from work and not viable dating prospects. Unfortunately, energy/time are finite and spending too much on one aspect means you skimp on another. In my experience, men will very rarely "cold approach" you when you go about your normal life and set-up is not right for it.

 

I agree. Interestingly, the men in my same predicament are all married or matched, and the few single men I know who are dating prospects don't want a woman like themselves - they want a traditional woman who can deal with the home front while they do what I do. This is another example though where what is expected and glorified in men (he is out pounding the pavement, making the bacon, driven for success and sacrificing to make it happen) is a stalemate for a woman - if not a checkmate.

 

Your point is very valid and I do understand why my issue exists and I know what has to be done to change it. Like many of us here who are perpetually single, I come back to the same driving need. To be as I am and to be appreciated and loved for that - even understanding that it is less likely since I don't fit a more traditional mold.

 

It seems we have come full circle again. My hope is that through all of this discourse, it is not lost on everyone that the single life is tough for all of us who want love. We all remain single for many reasons - some of which are own faults, some of which are us trying to find our place in a new society with rules we don't understand, and some of which are just luck of the draw. The pain and loneliness is the same, regardless of the reasons and regardless of how well we understand the "why."

[ffw]

If I want to find love yes I agree. Again the difficulty is that means ignoring the social activities of my job and thus decreasing my career advancement opportunities. It boils down to the same thing, how much can I give up in the pursuit of being loved, without reducing the success of something that I love.

 

In my humble opinion, instead of seeing as a competition between the job & the social circle (lack of better word), you have to learn how to juggle between them.

[PhoenixRysing]

it is sad this b.s. gets perpetuated. i started somewhat late but not real late and i never got cocky. now that i think of it a guy who i know what had his first at about 30 didn't get cocky either.

 

its hard enough for these guys, and sometimes women, as it is. making b.s. generalizations about them makes it even worse.

 

Yes, you are right. It is sad that we perpetuate stereotypes based on a few random experiences - but we do. Both ES and I have experienced this phenomenon though you personally have not been a culprit. What get's lost in averages and stereotypes are the unique individuals that have unique responses. Still, we continue to base our assumptions on those averages. It is sad and through conversations like this one we start to get a broader picture. Through conversations like this one, the averages start to skew. You see my story and maybe it only changes one data point for you. I see yours and the same happens.

 

Meanwhile, how many others are reading our words? How many others are shifting their perspectives because we shared? This more than anything is why I chose to post.

[USMCHokie]

Like many of us here who are perpetually single, I come back to the same driving need. To be as I am and to be appreciated and loved for that - even understanding that it is less likely since I don't fit a more traditional mold.

 

And this is where I have to disagree, starting with the direction we raise our children...creating that sense of entitlement that we should be loved "just the way we are"... When children are brought up that way, this is exactly what happens when reality comes to slap them in the face. They wonder why people don't love them. They wonder why they can't have girlfriends when everyone else has one. Some kids react with mass shootings, while others just go internal and live a introverted life away from society.

 

But as adults, we are often no different. But instead, we blame the other gender for not accepting us with all our faults and never look inward at those very faults. What stops us from addressing our faults? Is it laziness? Or perhaps ego? Since we are all entitled to be loved, there'd be no reason to address faults, right...?

[USMCHokie]

Yes, you are right. It is sad that we perpetuate stereotypes based on a few random experiences - but we do. Both ES and I have experienced this phenomenon though you personally have not been a culprit. What get's lost in averages and stereotypes are the unique individuals that have unique responses. Still, we continue to base our assumptions on those averages. It is sad and through conversations like this one we start to get a broader picture. Through conversations like this one, the averages start to skew. You see my story and maybe it only changes one data point for you. I see yours and the same happens.

 

Stereotypes wouldn't exist if they were true.

 

Meanwhile, how many others are reading our words? How many others are shifting their perspectives because we shared? This more than anything is why I chose to post.

 

Probably very view...at 8 pages, I think it's a little much for the average LS viewer...

[PhoenixRysing]

And this is where I have to disagree, starting with the direction we raise our children...creating that sense of entitlement that we should be loved "just the way we are"... When children are brought up that way, this is exactly what happens when reality comes to slap them in the face. They wonder why people don't love them. They wonder why they can't have girlfriends when everyone else has one. Some kids react with mass shootings, while others just go internal and live a introverted life away from society.

 

But as adults, we are often no different. But instead, we blame the other gender for not accepting us with all our faults and never look inward at those very faults. What stops us from addressing our faults? Is it laziness? Or perhaps ego? Since we are all entitled to be loved, there'd be no reason to address faults, right...?

 

I agree with a good majority of what you said. I did not say I should be loved as I am, in fact I have repeatedly stated that I understand why I am not and equally that it is likely that I won't be loved - as I am. I said that I wanted to be loved as I am - and need to be loved as I am. And frankly most of us do and are. I also don't blame men for my issues, those are squarely on my shoulders.

 

It is my choice to change to broaden my appeal or to accept that I will simply not appeal. Just as it is the choice of all of the other perpetually single people (male and female) to do the same.

 

As you pointed out, we are taught two competing ideals most of our lives. These ideals have both been expressed in this thread.

 

1. Don't change, be proud of your individuality and wait for the love that will appreciate your uniqueness.
   
2. Accept that men want what they want and women want what they want. If you aren't getting attention it is likely that you are not what "they" want. Better change!
   

I think there is truth to both. Our uniqueness is what makes us special. Our sameness is what makes us connect. It is up to each of us to define the line on acceptable specialness based on how much separateness we can tolerate.

[USMCHokie]

i've been cheated on multiple times. would it be fair for me to stereotype women as cheaters? of course not.

 

You can do whatever you want to do...

[USMCHokie]

and women almost all the time get to have the final say which is why I like to think they have it easier because all they have to do is say yes or no before anything

 

But keep in mind that, assuming traditional gender roles, women can't actually say yes or no to you until you've said yes to them, i.e., approached them.

[PhoenixRysing]

and women almost all the time get to have the final say which is why I like to think they have it easier because all they have to do is say yes or no before anything

 

And all men have to do is approach. Where women have to wonder if you will approach, defy gender roles and approach you, and worry that they are being used for sex, or that they are being to clingy if they want a relationship, or wonder if you want a relationship or if you just want a roll in the hay...and so on and so on.

 

I could tell you that you have it easier but that misses the point of this entire thread. No matter the gender, and no matter your acceptance or defiance of traditional gender roles, sex, dating, and relationships are anxiety provoking.

 

It's honestly a wonder that we get together at all. It goes to proving the point that we all want it pretty desperately if we are willing to tolerate all the crazymaking just to do it.