How do you condemn one and sleep with the other?

[waterwoman]

On the outside I never said anything horrible about OW. I never spoke to her or blamed her. Logically I don't blame her at all. I blame H 100%.

 

However people the OW/OW is a useful scapegoat. It's safe to spend a lot of your anger on them - if you are trying to reconcile it isn't constructive to pour all that burning rage and hurt onto your spouse - some of it can be safely directed at the 'other', someone you don't know and never need to speak to or care about.

 

But in my case it was silent anger at her - I never spoke to her, never want to see her again - she was a friend/acquaintance and I had been sympathetic to her problems. I didn't care enough to tell her how i felt. But it was handy to have her there in my head when I wanted to explode with rage and frustation. Harmless. Controlled explosion.

 

H dealt mostly with the real rational logical part of my feelings - the one that was prepared to express myself calmly and try to work to resolution. There were times beleive me when he got the brunt of it too, the tears and the shouting etc - but not as often as the invisible OW in my head.

 

OW was in love with H. She told him 'he was the man for her'. I often think she probably blamed me for the fact that she isn't now with the man she loved <shrugs>. She probably sends angry thoughts my way from time to time - her life appears to have gone to sh*t if rumours are correct If it helps her to blame me, that's OK. Harmless as I said.

[Decorative]

Again, I'm struck by the contradiction involved. She wasn't the one that made a lifetime commitment of fidelity to you and then, whilst lying to your face, broke that vow in every way possible. At least that's what I felt my exW did to me. To me, the other participant was a stranger. I couldn't have cared less about him. And yet a significant percentage of posters here, a couple of years or more out, have reconciled but still have a hard time not describing the AP in pretty disparaging terms.

 

Maybe it's a successful coping mechanism. The OM/W (or at least what they represent) becomes a place to put some or all of the hurt, anger and pain a BS feels. And that transfer is part of your WS becoming less of a monster and more of a person. Combined with remorse/transparency/re-commitment, it seems to work for some. Just, to me, a curious process...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Ah.

 

Now I see. Yeah. Not a coping mechanism.

 

This is part of the discussion we have had here about whether or not people have a responsibility not to make choices to hurt other people, even if they are a stranger.

 

We've had a few really long threads like that in the last few months.

 

You should look for them. They might give you more insight.

 

As for me? I believe in life that you should not make choices that harm other people, knowingly. That we owe everybody kindness.

 

So to me ? It doesn't matter if the OW/OM knew the betrayed spouse or not. It's still part of the social contract. Do no harm.

[Decorative]

I'd guess only if the BS feels that cheating is an acceptable - and ultimately forgivable - response to the prevailing marital conditions....

 

Mr. Lucky

 

No.

 

There is nothing in a marriage that ever makes cheating an acceptable action. Nothing. You may not realize it, but you just blamed the betrayed for the poor choices of the wayward.

 

And most cheating occurs because there is something wrong with the wayward spouse, not the marriage. In general- the person less dedicated to the marriage chooses to stray. The term is called overbenefitted.

 

The word forgiveness makes me uncomfortable. Probably because I am not religious, and probably because although my marriage is happily reconciled, years later, forgiveness isn't something I chose to offer for this. Actually? I think our reconciliation leapt forward when I stopped trying to offer forgiveness. It put a pressure on me that didn't work for me. My spouse has been remorseful and worked incredibly hard to show me he deserves our life together. We have moved forward- but offering forgiveness in the traditional sense? Wasn't going to come from me.

 

There's a great book called How Can I Forgive You, by Janis Springs, which discusses the concepts of forgiveness. It resonated with me.

[ComingInHot]

Hey there Mr. Lucky (great user name by the way )

 

So, you asked the fate of my M.

I'd say we are R'g. (How do I abrev. reconciling...*)

 

 

I could be mislead here but are you a man?

I was just thinking of your responses about only holding one of the drivers in the A accountable ie; your W (it sounds like).

 

Just curious is all.

 

And where are you at in your life now?

[road]

I'm often struck by the need of many BS that have reconciled with their WS to continue to vilify the OW/M. Regardless of the affair circumstances, their WS somehow was the "victim" and the AP the "predator". If the AP was a woman, they're portrayed as unstable, loose, less attractive, etc. If a man, they morph into manipulative, sexual harassing, shallow, etc. If there's contact after D-Day, your spouse "slipped up" but the AP is a "stalker".

 

All this is probably human nature at work. But common sense says that of the two participants, one was certainly more beholden to you and in a position to cause you the most hurt and pain. So how do you you forgive one (if possible) and not other? If you reconcile and move on, how do you sleep with one but continue to condemn the other ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

This statement shows someone that needs an eye exam. For it is clear as day light.

 

How can you stay married to the WS if all you are going to do is be mad at them?

 

You can not.

 

Those that can not let go of the anger get divorced.

 

Letting go of the affair is the price to keep the family together.

 

To want to stay mad at their WS and yet to want to stay married is cake eating that matches the finest cake eating of any WS during their affair.

 

Stay mad at the AP?

 

No problem to maintain the hate forever.

 

The BS does not want any connection with the AP.

[nofool4u]

I think it has alot to do with the fact that there is no life partnership agreement with the spouse. The spouse could be remorseful, apologetic, and show a willingness to make it up to their BS.

 

The OW/OM, not so. The OW/OM is someone who isn't going to make anything up to the BS, and nobody would expect them to.

 

Thats just my guess as to why they would forgive their spouse and not the OW/OM.

 

Having said that, its natural to have thoughts in your head of seeing the OW/OM as a POS from that point on. But honestly, the spouse needs to shift focus away from them. Their anger at OW/OM is definitely justified. But after a while, the BS shouldn't waste any brain cells on these people.

[Mr. Lucky]

But in my case it was silent anger at her - I never spoke to her, never want to see her again - she was a friend/acquaintance and I had been sympathetic to her problems. I didn't care enough to tell her how i felt. But it was handy to have her there in my head when I wanted to explode with rage and frustation. Harmless. Controlled explosion.

Seems like a healthy way to handle it. I have similar mental conversations with

my boss (who just might be evil incarnate) on a weekly basis ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

I think that's why we see a good number of BWs 'blaming' the OW - because their lying husbands threw their affair partners under the bus and laid all the blame on the OW's porch instead of their own.

Important angle that I hadn't really considered. There is often a triangle of lies (or a perfect square if the AP also married) where the WS deceives both the AP and BS. Although I doubt it matters to most BS that the AP was also lied to...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

The word forgiveness makes me uncomfortable. Probably because I am not religious, and probably because although my marriage is happily reconciled, years later, forgiveness isn't something I chose to offer for this. Actually? I think our reconciliation leapt forward when I stopped trying to offer forgiveness. It put a pressure on me that didn't work for me. My spouse has been remorseful and worked incredibly hard to show me he deserves our life together. We have moved forward- but offering forgiveness in the traditional sense? Wasn't going to come from me.

 

There's a great book called How Can I Forgive You, by Janis Springs, which discusses the concepts of forgiveness. It resonated with me.

Is there a term you think makes more sense? If the word is generally accepted to mean "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake", how do you reconcile and move on without doing so ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

Hey there Mr. Lucky (great user name by the way )

 

So, you asked the fate of my M.

I'd say we are R'g. (How do I abrev. reconciling...*)

 

 

I could be mislead here but are you a man?

I was just thinking of your responses about only holding one of the drivers in the A accountable ie; your W (it sounds like).

 

Just curious is all.

 

And where are you at in your life now?

Am indeed a guy and my user name describes where I'm at ... Married to a wonderful woman my emotional and intellectual superior who has gifted me three great children and a "lucky" life. I try and be smart enough every day to show her how grateful I am.

 

The recent birth of a grandchild with my son from my first marriage led to some interaction with my ex and discussion with my wife about how the marriage had dissolved. She was surprised that I couldn't remember the OM's name...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

This statement shows someone that needs an eye exam. For it is clear as day light.

 

How can you stay married to the WS if all you are going to do is be mad at them?

 

You can not.

 

Those that can not let go of the anger get divorced.

 

Letting go of the affair is the price to keep the family together.

 

To want to stay mad at their WS and yet to want to stay married is cake eating that matches the finest cake eating of any WS during their affair.

 

Stay mad at the AP?

 

No problem to maintain the hate forever.

 

The BS does not want any connection with the AP.

You've certainly described the process. I was trying to understand both how it occurred and my different feelings compared to others...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Decorative]

Is there a term you think makes more sense? If the word is generally accepted to mean "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake", how do you reconcile and move on without doing so ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Acceptance.

 

Because it stops being about what happened in the past.

 

This thread isn't about my issue about forgiveness. I just think some acts aren't forgiveable. And you draw a line at the act, and you move forward. In our case- we started over and began again, after a separation that I forced.

 

I'll always feel angry that this happened. It's a terrible thing to have happen to anyone. Resentful? Probably not the right word for it, for me.

 

It doesn't consume my life. It's a flicker in our everyday interactions at this point, and in our household, it rarely if ever comes up anymore. Except for when I am specifically choosing to discuss the affair ( like on here), it's a fixed point from years ago. We've had enough therapy to buy our providers a yacht, and I had therapy specifically for trauma. My spouse has worked an incredible amount to prove himself worthy. Seriously. It amazes me.

 

It's hard to explain. The book I mentioned before really helped identify it for me. And I think my non religious framework is also a player in this.

 

One of my girlfriends wrote a brilliant thing about not forgiving and choosing to move forward. I'll try to find it. The first time I read that- it made my heart pound. Because it was absolutely the way I feel.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Decorative

[Mr. Lucky]

Mr. Lucky, if someone enters your home, kills your dog and steals everything from your house, do you harbor any resentment against them? If so, why? They never promised not to hurt you.

Yes I would and I understand your point. I was simply trying to contrast their sins with those of our WS, who (at least in some cases) are eventually resented less. It's obviously different for each person...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

Having said that, its natural to have thoughts in your head of seeing the OW/OM as a POS from that point on. But honestly, the spouse needs to shift focus away from them. Their anger at OW/OM is definitely justified. But after a while, the BS shouldn't waste any brain cells on these people.

My thoughts also but I'm not sure you and I hold the majority position on this one...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Decorative]

My thoughts also but I'm not sure you and I hold the majority position on this one...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I think it is.

 

People are just at different points in the journey. You have to be graceful and trust that they'll get to the point where they don't consider the AP to be a factor.

 

It's not a character flaw or weakness to take a while to heal from trauma.

[angie2443]

Mr. Lucky, do you maybe feel a bit superior to thos BS who choose not to forgive the OM/Ow in their situation? Do you feel everyone should work towards forgiveness, in every situation? Maybe it's a religious issue. I don't know if you are religious, but I do know some religions preach a lot about forgiveness. I'm not a religious person in the traditional sense. I actually feel it's more important to focus on righting a wrong, making up for a "sin" then forgiving a sin. From what I've seen on here, the marriages that survive an affair well, are the ones in which the WS did go through he!! with the BS after d-day and in a sense, made up for what they did (made up as best they could, anyways). Maybe if the OW/OM came to the BS and did the work to make the BS forgive them, the BS in these situations you talk of would forgive the OM/OW. Again, though, why would the OW/OM bother? Unless their was a strong, loving relationship between the BS and the OW/OM before the affair, why would the OW/OM waiste their energy trying to earn the BS forgiveness? The OW/OM doesn't have to earn the forgiveness to move on with their life and be happy and by the same token, the BS doesn't have to give their forgiveness in order to move on and be happy.

[angie2443]

Acceptance.

 

Because it stops being about what happened in the past.

 

This thread isn't about my issue about forgiveness. I just think some acts aren't forgiveable. And you draw a line at the act, and you move forward. In our case- we started over and began again, after a separation that I forced.

 

I'll always feel angry that this happened. It's a terrible thing to have happen to anyone. Resentful? Probably not the right word for it, for me.

 

It doesn't consume my life. It's a flicker in our everyday interactions at this point, and in our household, it rarely if ever comes up anymore. Except for when I am specifically choosing to discuss the affair ( like on here), it's a fixed point from years ago. We've had enough therapy to buy our providers a yacht, and I had therapy specifically for trauma. My spouse has worked an incredible amount to prove himself worthy. Seriously. It amazes me.

 

It's hard to explain. The book I mentioned before really helped identify it for me. And I think my non religious framework is also a player in this.

 

One of my girlfriends wrote a brilliant thing about not forgiving and choosing to move forward. I'll try to find it. The first time I read that- it made my heart pound. Because it was absolutely the way I feel.

 

I like how you put this! I don't feel confortable using the word forgiveness anymore because I've seen the definition change a couple of times. It used to be, at least in one dictionary, that forgiveness meant that the offending incident no longer existed. This just doesn't make sense to me. Now, I think, that most people view it as letting go of hate or something. I'll have to look it up again. What I do know, is that you don't have to forgive someone that's harmed you to live a happy life. Surrounding yourself with people who are good and people who you love, are much more important in moving on than forgiveness.

[Spark1111]

I'm often struck by the need of many BS that have reconciled with their WS to continue to vilify the OW/M. Regardless of the affair circumstances, their WS somehow was the "victim" and the AP the "predator". If the AP was a woman, they're portrayed as unstable, loose, less attractive, etc. If a man, they morph into manipulative, sexual harassing, shallow, etc. If there's contact after D-Day, your spouse "slipped up" but the AP is a "stalker".

 

All this is probably human nature at work. But common sense says that of the two participants, one was certainly more beholden to you and in a position to cause you the most hurt and pain. So how do you you forgive one (if possible) and not other? If you reconcile and move on, how do you sleep with one but continue to condemn the other ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I actually forgave her first and leveled both barrels at him. I figured she too got caught up in his mid-life crisising bs and was a lonely divorcee raising a difficult child.

 

The only issue I had a hard time with is trying to understand why she would involve herself with a MM, but I a sure he lied about us and future faked a great deal with her when she began to pressure a commitment from him.

 

I assumed wrong but that came waaaaay after I made the decision to reconcile and let him move back into our home, the one I was selling as I had intended to divorce him.

 

It is a protection of the psyche to project blame onto the third party, whether BS or AP because that protects the love you may still have for them, like hating the child who hurt your child until you calm down and realize your child probably provoked it.

 

Plus, in,any instances, we see our spouse walk through fire to change, introspect and win us back. We have no knowledge if the AP does this because few apologize for the pain caused to you.

 

Hell, they don't even pick up the phone when called!!

 

It's a2 to 5 year process of riding the crazy train and much of it is not rational, lucky.

 

Some of do find out the xAP is a crazy nut job who blames us for infringing on their privacy or do become stalkers or act in ways that no longer deserve empathy and forgiveness.

 

Not much you can do about that except wonder WTH your spouse saw in them at that moment in time and sometimes you can only conclude they were NUT JOB crazy too at that time.

[RainDown]

I'm often struck by the need of many BS that have reconciled with their WS to continue to vilify the OW/M. Regardless of the affair circumstances, their WS somehow was the "victim" and the AP the "predator". If the AP was a woman, they're portrayed as unstable, loose, less attractive, etc. If a man, they morph into manipulative, sexual harassing, shallow, etc. If there's contact after D-Day, your spouse "slipped up" but the AP is a "stalker".

 

All this is probably human nature at work. But common sense says that of the two participants, one was certainly more beholden to you and in a position to cause you the most hurt and pain. So how do you you forgive one (if possible) and not other? If you reconcile and move on, how do you sleep with one but continue to condemn the other ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I never blamed or vilified any of my ex-husband's other women. WS made the decision to be unfaithful and the world is full of women. I figure some of them will say yes. I look at it this way - if my spouse is a drunk, do I blame the bartender for serving him? If my spouse spends all his free time on the golf course, do I blame the country club for letting him play? If my spouse is a workaholic, do I blame his employer? If my spouse ignores the whole family while he plays Xbox all day, do I blame Microsoft?

 

My husband chose to engage in affairs. That's on him. The OW were not to blame for my husband's decision to have affairs. Were it not for HIM the other women wouldn't have existed at all.

 

Getting angry at the OP is like getting pissed off at a bottle of gin or an XBox game. To my mind it makes more sense to get pissed at the person using the gin or the game or the OP.

[veryhappy]

Mr. Lucky, if someone enters your home, kills your dog and steals everything from your house, do you harbor any resentment against them? If so, why? They never promised not to hurt you.

 

That's illegal.

 

An AP KNOWS the WS is married. They know they're about to hurt someone because it's what they want to do. They do it anyway. So what if they never promised NOT to hurt the BS. Does that mean they bear no responsibility?

 

Sleeping with someone who's married is not illegal in most places.

 

If you are talking morality here, people are not perfect and not under the control of one single morality police. I would love if all people promised me they wouldn't cut me off in traffic. It still happens, and I doubt all of them are rushing to stringent emergencies.

[Spark1111]

I think that this thread brings up another question too - that of "consequences" within a marriage after an A if the marriage continues. When I read that a BS is "consequencing" their spouse, I literally cringe - it sounds so... unhealthy. Natural consequences are one thing - but actively punishing a spouse is unhealthy and I just don't see how those relationships are ever going to be healthy again (if they ever were?).

 

So, this condemnation doesn't just apply to the Others I don't think. I think that people who believe in condemning someone, spread it around - they don't just focus it on the AP. However, I think that they also feel highly justified in punishing their WS and so that makes it okay to continue on with them - if the WS takes it. (I can hardly write that without becoming ill, seriously).

 

I don't claim that every BS is this way, obviously -but I have seen it, and have read about it here at times. Where a BS is handing out punishment with an almost glee that the WS is sticking around for it - and a belief that this is some kind of proof that the WS is choosing them. I think it's abusive, unhealthy - and won't work long term in any situation (unless you have a WS who has absolutely no boundaries or self respect).

 

So maybe it's not about condemning the AP and continuing on with the WS - maybe it's about condemning them both and exacting revenge on the WS that feels justified (in some cases, obvs not all!).

 

Well, after you deal with the affair which is one of the hardest traumas to overcome, IMO, you then have to deal with the issues in the marriage that led to the affair and you can be much more sensitive to such traits as emotional distancing, conflict avoidance, etc.

 

But this forum, as a means to vent some residual anger, is hardly a barometer of punishment within the marriage and it is silly to thinks so.

 

The marriage would never last.

 

Ever been horribly betrayed by someone you love and adore?

[AnotherRound]

Please link a post where there is ongoing "punishing" by the BS in a reconciled M. I would imagine, and rightfully so, that there was a fair amount of it at D day, but I find it extremely hard to believe that a BS who has reconciled beats her H over the head with the A ad nauseum.

 

The threads were from about 6 months ago - I remember those convos well, but have no desire to find them. It does happen - I don't have any statistics on it, but if you want to peruse through old threads here you can find it.

[AnotherRound]

Well, after you deal with the affair which is one of the hardest traumas to overcome, IMO, you then have to deal with the issues in the marriage that led to the affair and you can be much more sensitive to such traits as emotional distancing, conflict avoidance, etc.

 

But this forum, as a means to vent some residual anger, is hardly a barometer of punishment within the marriage and it is silly to thinks so.

 

The marriage would never last.

 

Ever been horribly betrayed by someone you love and adore?

 

Yep. My first (and only) marriage ended because my exH had an affair, fell in love with someone else.

 

I chose to leave the marriage (after some really sad attempts at reconciliation on both our parts) and move on. For me, staying and punishing him was silly - and wasn't going to make me any happier - if anything, it was just going to pick at the wound. The affair made our relationship unsustainable - the balance was thrown way off and it would have never worked for us.

 

I learned a LOT from my exHs affair - about life, love, and about myself.

[AnotherRound]

I don't need to prove a claim made by someone else. If whoever makes a statement of supposed fact based on things supposedly said in a forum can't support their claim from that very same forum they are currently posting on, well then...

 

 

Fair enough, lol.

[Mr. Lucky]

So telling a BS that what their perspective is "makes no sense" is validating their feelings?

 

Um... no.

You're right, I could have chosen my words more carefully, my apologies. It's hard when you're responding to multiple people. I should have said makes no sense "to me" ...

 

Mr. Lucky