Consolidated discussion - "Leagues"

[bebe23]

The thing about attraction is that whether we want it to or not, and even if we think we CAN make some broad generalizations, there will always be couples that defy the generalization, like the one gaius just mentioned. For every post taking a job at "fat women" or "fat men", there are some stereotypically attractive people who LIKE overweight women or men. For every person who whines about not getting a date because they are short, there is out there somewhere a 5'9" woman who is dating a guy who is 5'4" (or in the case of a friend of mine, married to him)

 

I think my hubby and I would be an example of that too. I'm a 'fat' woman married to a thin and decently nice-looking man. He loves every inch of my body and I love the contrast between us- his firm lean masculinity and my soft, curvy, cuddly femininity. The odd thing about him is he will see OTHER overweight women and say (not in a mean way because he's not like that- but in description) 'she's big.' Yet I think of myself as that way. It's as if he doesn't SEE me as an overweight woman at all, like he has some kind of magic, rose-colored glasses on! When I read these threads and how shallow people are it makes me realize how lucky I am to have him.

[elaine567]

Well, the word "leagues" IS in the title of this thread.

 

Sure, I'm judging. Absolutely. Don't you judge men based on what traits you're looking for? If you don't want to date smoker, aren't you judging them based on the fact they smoke? If you don't want to date a fat guy, aren't you judging him for being fat? If you don't want to date a guy with kids, aren't you judging him for having them? It may not be a major judgment, but nonetheless your are identifying something about that man that you deem unattractive. That is a judgment.

 

Merriam-Webster's definition of judgment: "an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought; the ability to make good decisions about what should be done."

 

I judge those who are hypocritical to be unsuitable partners for me. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Yes everyone can judge, but my point is the use of the term hypocritical may not apply.

 

To be bluntly honest, in that situation I tend to think that has less to do with preference and more to do with desperation!

 

Hypocrisy enters the equation when the person has some kind of behavior that society generally considers unhealthy, unattractive, or which led to serious consequences. Like a smoker refusing to date other smokers. Or a fat person refusing to date other fat people. Or a single mom refusing to date a single dad. These people chose to smoke, get fat, or have unprotected sex and have kids. These outcomes weren't created in a vacuum.

 

Hypocrite:a person who claims or pretends to have certain beliefs about what is right but who behaves in a way that disagrees with those beliefs.

 

There is nothing in the term that says anything about what society sees is right, it is what an individual sees as right.

 

Dating preferences are just dating preferences IMO.

[toolforgrowth]

Yes everyone can judge, but my point is the use of the term hypocritical may not apply.

 

 

 

Hypocrite:a person who claims or pretends to have certain beliefs about what is right but who behaves in a way that disagrees with those beliefs.

 

There is nothing in the term that says anything about what society sees is right, it is what an individual sees as right.

 

Dating preferences are just dating preferences IMO.

 

When I look up "hypocrisy": "the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do : behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel"

 

By very definition, the woman in this example is demonstrating hypocrisy. She is telling other men not to be fat, yet she herself is fat. And by demonstrating hypocrisy, that makes her a hypocrite.

 

And if she doesn't believe that being fat is right (and she doesn't, otherwise why should she be eliminating men who are?), then her being fat does indeed disagree with those beliefs, thereby making her a hypocrite. You just proved my point for me.

 

Don't get me wrong, she can be a hypocrite if she wants to be. It's a free country, after all. She has every right to shoot for any man she wants, whether they're out of her league or not. I just wouldn't have any sympathy for her if she consistently failed. It's not like she couldn't eat healthier and get more active to drop the weight, and also shoot for men that are in her league.

 

She's not entitled to the best looking guy she can find simply because she's a woman. She's gotta be able to attract them to her, and I've met very few men who find obese women attractive.

[carhill]

I'd define the boundary of where a preference becomes a league to be where and when a particular person feels they are superior/inferior to '[insert adjective] people', especially where and when such people are formed into general groups based upon the adjective chosen, obviating any semblance of individuality.

 

As a younger person, I tended to believe preferences ruled and leagues didn't exist but life experience with social groups, especially in the same demographic over decades, provided more evidence of leagues, and not just relevant to dating but to all forms of social interaction.

 

I do sense some leakage of societal messages creeping into the assertion here:

 

"Do you think that an unattractive, average looking and/or overweight person has the right to expect or demand to date wayyy OUT of their league - and to expect other people who ARE attractive, very attractive and/or physically in tip top shape to be attracted to them???"

 

Mainly that attractive people, whatever that means, are superior to unattractive people so the latter should 'know your place' and 'stick to your own'. Where have we seen that before? Oh, right, that lady who didn't like sitting in the back of the bus because she should know her place and stick to her own. Rosa Parks was her name I think.

 

In the quoted profile, where the 'fat' lady doesn't want to date 'fat men', amongst other, older men apparently, she's not liking the idea of sex between two fat people. Is she entitled to her preference for liking sex her way? Opinion varies. She certainly wouldn't be interested in dating someone like myself, being an old fart and, yep, getting some of that middle age body fat. Does that mean she's 'better' than me? I'm not hearing that from her, rather that she isn't interested in older, fat men. Will younger, fitter men (her preference) be interested in her? Maybe! That's how dating and mating goes. She could also change her mind about her preference if she met me. Ha! Never know. We're going by quoted words on a web site.

 

To the extent that people group fellow humans according to arbitrary characteristics which obviate individuality and assign subjective and judgmental labels to those groups, leagues for them exist.

[toolforgrowth]

Mainly that attractive people, whatever that means, are superior to unattractive people so the latter should 'know your place' and 'stick to your own'. Where have we seen that before? Oh, right, that lady who didn't like sitting in the back of the bus because she should know her place and stick to her own. Rosa Parks was her name I think.

 

I usually really like your posts, carhill, but even I'm surprised that you went there. To equate sexual rank to racism is an extreme fallacy.

 

A human being is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Rosa Parks was being denied her human liberties, as were all black people during the civil rights movement. To argue that would be ludicrous. They were literally treated as subhuman.

 

"Unattractive" people are in no way having their liberties taken away from them. We don't tell unattractive people to sit in the back of the bus. We don't force them to use bathrooms marked "Uglieds". We don't ship them off to different schools. We don't give them 3/5ths of a vote.

 

The Constitution doesn't say "life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and a really hot spouse."

 

No one is saying that attractive people are "better" than unattractive people, and to say that unattractive people are forced to have the kind of life that Rosa Parks and other black people had before they were granted equal rights is completely ridiculous. Comparing that to the general human preference throughout most societies today that our partners be generally fit and not obese goes well beyond the bounds of reason.

[bebe23]

Carhill, I love your posts- LOL. You should write a book, seriously, they are so funny and enjoyable to read.

 

If something ever did happen to my husband (he doesn't believe in divorce and is a committed moral Christian) and I decided to do online dating, I know I wouldn't be like that woman 'toolforgrowth' is talking about. I'd be perfectly happy dating a guy who looked like Paul Blart the Mall Cop, if he was cute face-wise and made me laugh. So I can kind of understand the point. I don't know, everybody's different. That woman will probably find the guy she's looking for, or close. All she asked was he not be 'fat.' She might mean by that 'not 400 lbs and riding a scooter.' A 'slightly' fat man might be perfectly attractive to this lady! I don't see why toolforgrowth is so concerned about it.

[toolforgrowth]

Carhill, I love your posts- LOL. You should write a book, seriously, they are so funny and enjoyable to read.

 

If something ever did happen to my husband (he doesn't believe in divorce and is a committed moral Christian) and I decided to do online dating, I know I wouldn't be like that woman 'toolforgrowth' is talking about. I'd be perfectly happy dating a guy who looked like Paul Blart the Mall Cop, if he was cute face-wise and made me laugh. So I can kind of understand the point. I don't know, everybody's different. That woman will probably find the guy she's looking for, or close. All she asked was he not be 'fat.' She might mean by that 'not 400 lbs and riding a scooter.' A 'slightly' fat man might be perfectly attractive to this lady! I don't see why toolforgrowth is so concerned about it.

 

I honestly think that most people are this way. We don't expect our partners to be physically perfect. I'm not, and neither is my GF. We're both okay with that.

 

I just simply stated that I think the woman the OP was talking about is a hypocrite; she's a fat woman who won't date fat men. I was challenged for having that opinion, and I defended it.

[elaine567]

"Unattractive" people are in no way having their liberties taken away from them. We don't tell unattractive people to sit in the back of the bus. We don't force them to use bathrooms marked "Uglieds". We don't ship them off to different schools. We don't give them 3/5ths of a vote.

 

NO, but the language some use re perceived unattractive people is not far off that mindset.

Some, I guess, if they could, would.

[toolforgrowth]

NO, but the language some use re perceived unattractive people is not far off that mindset.

Some, I guess, if they could, would.

 

I've never heard anyone say that before. Do you have any examples?

 

One of my best friends is a very overweight woman. I don't find her sexually attractive, but she's one of my closest friends and we go tons of places together. She'll come over and we'll bake goodies, we go grocery shopping together, hell I even took a day off work so I could take her to the hospital when she had a growth on her wrist removed.

 

Just because I wouldn't sleep with her or get into a relationship with her because I don't find her attractive doesn't mean I would ever condone treating her like less of a human being. She's actually one of the coolest people I've ever met, and I'm really grateful to have her as a friend.

[autumnnight]

Mainly that attractive people, whatever that means, are superior to unattractive people so the latter should 'know your place' and 'stick to your own'. Where have we seen that before? Oh, right, that lady who didn't like sitting in the back of the bus because she should know her place and stick to her own. Rosa Parks was her name I think.

 

In the quoted profile, where the 'fat' lady doesn't want to date 'fat men', amongst other, older men apparently, she's not liking the idea of sex between two fat people. Is she entitled to her preference for liking sex her way? Opinion varies. She certainly wouldn't be interested in dating someone like myself, being an old fart and, yep, getting some of that middle age body fat. Does that mean she's 'better' than me? I'm not hearing that from her, rather that she isn't interested in older, fat men. Will younger, fitter men (her preference) be interested in her? Maybe! That's how dating and mating goes. She could also change her mind about her preference if she met me. Ha! Never know. We're going by quoted words on a web site.

 

To the extent that people group fellow humans according to arbitrary characteristics which obviate individuality and assign subjective and judgmental labels to those groups, leagues for them exist.

 

Let's get real. The people who are miffed that what they believe to be "below" average seeks what they believe to be "above average" ARE doing exactly what you talk about here. The man who goes on and on about a ten and fitness, and flat stomachs while using the word "fatty" IS deciding that thin is superior to fat. The person who goes on about short and bald as opposed to tall dark and handsome IS stating that tall, dark, and what they perceive to be handsome is superior to short and bald.

 

I mean, if we are going to insist that the woman in the OP has a double standard or is a hypocrite, then step up and won that you (universal you) believe that a person you assess to be outwardly physically attractive is superior to a person you do not believe to be outwardly physically attractive.

 

Look, if I threw up a picture of myself, I know exact;y what some very select people would say. And wouldn't say. And you know what? If they make an assessment of me as a person based on that photo and decide "next," it is not really my problem, it's their loss.

 

I'm not "fat" like this woman, and I;m not a loudmouth with a blog, but I know my value, and someone who cannot see that due to the prejudices that they can't even admit aren't really worth my time. So to that extent, I kinda understand what she is saying.

 

And I used what instead of who in that first sentence because that is exactly what people making those judgments mean. They do not see the person THEY perceive to be "lacking" as an actual person.

[xxoo]

A. If you make yourself more desirable, you'll attract more desirable people.

 

B. If you can not attract anyone who you desire, refer to A.

[Syberia]

I think my hubby and I would be an example of that too. I'm a 'fat' woman married to a thin and decently nice-looking man. He loves every inch of my body and I love the contrast between us- his firm lean masculinity and my soft, curvy, cuddly femininity. The odd thing about him is he will see OTHER overweight women and say (not in a mean way because he's not like that- but in description) 'she's big.' Yet I think of myself as that way. It's as if he doesn't SEE me as an overweight woman at all, like he has some kind of magic, rose-colored glasses on! When I read these threads and how shallow people are it makes me realize how lucky I am to have him.

Your husband reminds me of me. I, too, am married to a traditionally "fat" woman. And I love her, think she is sexy, and wouldn't trade her for anything. When I first met her, she was trying her hardest to be thin (high school is a cruel place) and, honestly, it did not suit her that well. She even agrees with me on this; not everyone makes an attractive skinny person. Since then, she has grown into what would probably be called a "BBW" and she looks so much better.

[E-Squared]

I have had discussions about this with friends in the past and they have told me that there is no such thing as "leagues" as long you are confident enough to feel that you have a chance. I am actually in the middle in all of this. Sure, I understand that everyone (or at least, a lot of people) has "types," but then you also hear the statement of "She's out of your league."

 

Personally, I am not really sure where I stand on this. I mean, yes, I will admit that a middle school crush, who I follow on Instagram, is more not my type than out of my league, but the latter isn't exactly false, either. Of course, I see her content and I even tell myself, "I don't think I would want that now." Not to say I wouldn't go for her if it were physical, but to be with?

 

Well, that's a tricky situation, even if she were to actually be into me. Then again, my dad had told me in the past that he had seen an adipose man with a gorgeous woman. He said it like she was model-like beautiful, but the man was morbidly obese. I have seen stuff like that myself and I don't question it. Of course, it is all subjective and it usually depends on what the man or woman wants.

 

Where do you stand on this?

Edited March 18, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Paragraphs and merge threads

[Agonistes]

Socioeconomic leagues certainly exist. There is crossover at the margins but it's uncommon enough to be notable when it happens.

[Mike800]

I hear so many people especially online talk about how people should stay in leagues usually physically and not go after anyone who’s in a “higher” league so to speak.

 

To me that’s so foolish. First off how do you know who’s in your league? Most people walking around aren’t 1’s nor 10’s there average or a little above or below. No I’m probably not gonna go after super models or movie stars but how many of those do you see walking around everyday?

 

It’s just a dumb mindset. You never know who you’re gonna connect with and fall for. To look at it like a mathematical equation where if you’re better looking then that person then there beneath you and connection means nothing or if there better looking then you so you’re aftaid to go after them it is just self defeating.

 

I’ve been with women who people said I could do much better then and women people said how the hell did you get her lol and I felt strongly about each women I was with because we connected and I enjoyed being with them I didn’t worry where they rate physically on somebodies league scale.