Consolidated discussion - "Leagues"

[Anela]

I think it speaks to her expectation that men are supposed to take care of themselves but women aren't. To her, if you're a fat man you have no value, but if you're a fat woman then you have tons of value. Why does she have this mindset?

 

Because she's fat.

 

Humans have a tendency to think that rules apply to everyone but themselves. "You can't be fat, but I can." "You can't cheat, but I can." "You have to pay, but I don't." "I can have anonymous sex, but you can't." We see it in many different situations from both genders.

 

She simply has an overestimated sense of self and of her value. Are there men who like fat women? Sure. How many of them are fit and attractive?

 

Probably very, very few. As in so few they are practically non-existent.

 

I used to be acquainted with a socially phobic fat man, who insulted fat women, and only wanted to date gorgeous, skinny women. He knew that he most likely wouldn't get what he wanted, but he didn't apologize for it. I've known other men that way, and if they don't feel the need to apologize for it, I don't see why she should.

[toolforgrowth]

I used to be acquainted with a socially phobic fat man, who insulted fat women, and only wanted to date gorgeous, skinny women. He knew that he most likely wouldn't get what he wanted, but he didn't apologize for it. I've known other men that way, and if they don't feel the need to apologize for it, I don't see why she should.

 

I said nothing about apologizing for it. And this man is a classic example of what I was talking about.

 

I clearly said both genders do this. The op's example happened to be a woman, so that's the example I commented on. Your example happens to be a man. Regardless of their gender, they are identical in that what applies to others does not apply to them.

[123321]

I used to be acquainted with a socially phobic fat man, who insulted fat women, and only wanted to date gorgeous, skinny women. He knew that he most likely wouldn't get what he wanted, but he didn't apologize for it. I've known other men that way, and if they don't feel the need to apologize for it, I don't see why she should.

 

I don't see an issue with any of that as long as it doesn't go to the point where his possible difficulty in getting what he wants is blamed on the desires and preferences of other people.

 

If he either lives with not getting what he wants or is getting what he wants (I'm not exactly an oil painting and I routinely date the sort of women I want to date) without sniveling or assigning blame to others I guess he's OK.

[toolforgrowth]

I don't see an issue with any of that as long as it doesn't go to the point where his possible difficulty in getting what he wants is blamed on the desires and preferences of other people.

 

If he either lives with not getting what he wants or is getting what he wants (I'm not exactly an oil painting and I routinely date the sort of women I want to date) without sniveling or assigning blame to others I guess he's OK.

 

This right here. If he knows he's probably going to fail because of his weight and doesn't blame the fact that most attractive women don't want to have sex with fat guys on the women themselves, then more power to him.

 

I don't find fat women attractive at all and would never sleep with one. She's not entitled to my body simply because she wants it. Same rules apply to fat guys too.

[Anela]

I don't see an issue with any of that as long as it doesn't go to the point where his possible difficulty in getting what he wants is blamed on the desires and preferences of other people.

 

If he either lives with not getting what he wants or is getting what he wants (I'm not exactly an oil painting and I routinely date the sort of women I want to date) without sniveling or assigning blame to others I guess he's OK.

 

Well, he did snivel about it, and it seems that something is working for this woman, otherwise she would have changed her expectations.

[123321]

She berates people who judge based on size, then says if you're fat please don't message me.

 

Well, he did snivel about it, and it seems that something is working for this woman, otherwise she would have changed her expectations.

 

And .... then?

[toolforgrowth]

Well, he did snivel about it, and it seems that something is working for this woman, otherwise she would have changed her expectations.

 

I'm not so sure about this. I know both men and women who complain they are perpetually single (and they are) and yet their expectations are so high that they're constantly shooting for people out of their league.

 

Some people just don't want to admit that they're not going to get the best looking members of the opposite sex. I'm a decent looking guy with a great job and good assets, and I've had some pretty beautiful women in my day, but I also know I'm no Ryan Gosling. It makes sense why Anna Kendrick would choose to masturbate to Ryan Gosling instead of me.

 

Some people can't learn to accept that or be okay with it.

Edited April 17, 2015 by toolforgrowth

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

I'm not so sure about this. I know both men and women who complain they are perpetually single (and they are) and yet their expectations are so high that they're constantly shooting for people out of their league.

 

Some people just don't want to admit that they're not going to get the best looking members of the opposite sex. I'm a decent looking guy with a great job and good assets, and I've had some pretty beautiful women in my day, but I also know I'm no Ryan Gosling. It makes sense why Anna Kendrick would choose to masturbate to Ryan Gosling instead of me.

 

Some people can't learn to accept that or be okay with it.

 

You've basically summed up what I've been saying all along. Not that people can't shoot for the top tier of the type of person they're looking for. Let them aim for it all they want to; but chances are, they're NOT going to ever attain those people. This is why I don't understand why some people wouldn't be more open minded to date (or enter into a relationship with) a person who doesn't have celeb-type looks but are decent looking (not fugly) and who have other character traits that they WOULD be attracted to.

 

 

.

[calvincline47]

I'm not so sure about this. I know both men and women who complain they are perpetually single (and they are) and yet their expectations are so high that they're constantly shooting for people out of their league.

 

Some people just don't want to admit that they're not going to get the best looking members of the opposite sex. I'm a decent looking guy with a great job and good assets, and I've had some pretty beautiful women in my day, but I also know I'm no Ryan Gosling. It makes sense why Anna Kendrick would choose to masturbate to Ryan Gosling instead of me.

 

Some people can't learn to accept that or be okay with it.

 

This is not necessarily true. I'm perpetually single, but certainly don't shoot out of my league most of the time (and, if I do, it doesn't have all that much to do with her looks).

 

I just got shot down pretty often. For example, I recently asked a girl out that I found attractive, but that my friends ALL thought (both girls and guys) was not physically attractive. She gave me the BS "let's hang out in a group, I'll let you know". My friends were shocked that she shot me down. (Since then, she has asked me to hang out a few times, but it became obvious that she was playing games of some sort so I just dropped it and don't speak to her anymore).

 

In any event, just because a person is perpetually single does not mean that they are always shooting out of their league.

[compulsivedancer]

I can attract guys that are "out of my league," but I can't keep them. I just don't hold their attention, and they don't usually hold mine enough for me to try and hold onto them. To me, this speaks to the similar interests thing.

 

I can make myself up and look like a bombshell, but the guys that are interested in that don't want to hang out at the arcade and chat about sci fi, Spider-Man, and the origins of the English language.

 

And if they fall asleep during those discussions, what can they offer to compensate? How are they possibly going to keep my eyes from rolling back in my head?

[Mrlonelyone]

She simply has an overestimated sense of self and of her value. Are there men who like fat women? Sure. How many of them are fit and attractive?

 

Probably very, very few. As in so few they are practically non-existent.

 

My nephew dates exclusively overweight women but he is a big strong guy who goes to the gym all...the...time...

 

People have preferences and those preferences don't always fit to stereotypes.

 

When it comes to looks two things make one unhappy while in a relationship.

 

Being with someone who does not care for themselves or their looks while you do.

 

Being someone who does not feel they look good and are always jealous of their SO. How many relationships were obese person-obese person then one looses weight and they break up?

 

 

Let us not forget the other end of the spectrum. Many many women who are not obese are eating disordered skinny. Which is physically just as unappealing as being very heavy.

[ascendotum]

I can attract guys that are "out of my league," but I can't keep them. I just don't hold their attention, and they don't usually hold mine enough for me to try and hold onto them. To me, this speaks to the similar interests thing.

 

I can make myself up and look like a bombshell, but the guys that are interested in that don't want to hang out at the arcade and chat about sci fi, Spider-Man, and the origins of the English language.

 

And if they fall asleep during those discussions, what can they offer to compensate? How are they possibly going to keep my eyes from rolling back in my head?

 

I can asure you the more cerebral guys will appreciate your bombshell look just as much as the pump n dump guys. The trouble is for many they will think you are out of their league, based on their past experience with chatting to girls so will be less inclined or even a little intimidated to ask you out. I'm sure some will chat with you though hoping to get some IOIs. Its often a trade off on the two aspects but not always, and those who cover all the bases and are single and looking for a relationship are rarer.

 

With sexual market value > relationship market value > marriage market value, its very easy for women to attract/date/sleep with guys that are "out of my league" but as you say keeping them is a different story. This is one of main aspects that underpin the 'women have it easier dating' threads.

[Anela]

 

Some people can't learn to accept that or be okay with it.

 

My body has hardly ever been a problem. I've received enough attention for that over the years, to know that. I would receive more respect, once they knew me as a person.

I'm only a little overweight now, and was just thinking that from what I've heard, I'm doing well for my age. I guess that's a humblebrag, but I don't care.

 

If this woman's preferences are working for her, then I don't see why anyone should be exclaiming that she's delusional. At least, that's what I've heard from a few men here, about their own preferences. That doesn't change for a person, just because they're overweight.

[toolforgrowth]

My body has hardly ever been a problem. I've received enough attention for that over the years, to know that. I would receive more respect, once they knew me as a person.

I'm only a little overweight now, and was just thinking that from what I've heard, I'm doing well for my age. I guess that's a humblebrag, but I don't care.

 

If this woman's preferences are working for her, then I don't see why anyone should be exclaiming that she's delusional. At least, that's what I've heard from a few men here, about their own preferences. That doesn't change for a person, just because they're overweight.

 

I said nothing about her being delusional.

 

She is a fat woman who doesn't want to be rejected for being fat, but who in turn is rejecting fat men. That may not be delusional, but it is the very definition of hypocrisy. The fact that most of the men here find that ridiculous could be an indicator of her success rate, but the only way to truly know for sure would be to just ask her.

 

Which we obviously can't do.

 

You are assuming that she is finding success just as much as we are assuming she's not. Both are assumptions, but with one minor difference: all of the men posting here have indicated they wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. That's obviously not a full sample, but it does provide helpful context to this conversation.

[BlueIris]

This is not necessarily true. I'm perpetually single, but certainly don't shoot out of my league most of the time (and, if I do, it doesn't have all that much to do with her looks).

 

I just got shot down pretty often. For example, I recently asked a girl out that I found attractive, but that my friends ALL thought (both girls and guys) was not physically attractive. She gave me the BS "let's hang out in a group, I'll let you know". My friends were shocked that she shot me down. (Since then, she has asked me to hang out a few times, but it became obvious that she was playing games of some sort so I just dropped it and don't speak to her anymore).

 

In any event, just because a person is perpetually single does not mean that they are always shooting out of their league.

 

Your description of what occurred just confirms that you and she have different beliefs about dating and getting to know someone. You see her approach as BS and a “game” (condemn rather than understand or be flexible) but getting to know someone in a social context was the way it was done for centuries- even when I started dating in the 1970’s in a mid-sized Midwestern US town/city. Spending time in a group was a very acceptable way to begin getting to know each other. Having social context and interaction was standard.

 

You don’t want to do that, which is fine. You and she are on very different pages, not a match in perspective and approach to relationship, or perhaps even demeanor.

 

"League" isn’t just about looks. In fact, in my experience, it’s rarely been about looks. It also isn't hierarchical, one single linear measure of good-better-best. I guess it is to some.

[Anela]

I said nothing about her being delusional.

 

She is a fat woman who doesn't want to be rejected for being fat, but who in turn is rejecting fat men. That may not be delusional, but it is the very definition of hypocrisy. The fact that most of the men here find that ridiculous could be an indicator of her success rate, but the only way to truly know for sure would be to just ask her.

 

 

So, it's okay for you, and other men here, to think that she's a hypocrite for not wanting to date fat men, but I'm angry (and need to let it go), when I point out the same hypocrisy in men who think themselves above dating women their own age, and insist on dating younger women?

 

Before you object once again: I am not saying that you exclusively date younger women. I also don't take those men seriously, most of the time - I grew very tired of the bashing last week, so have avoided large threads ever since.

[gaius]

I'm sure she does fine for herself with that level of confidence, even with thin guys. Just like the guy that sat next to me on a plane who looked like he was pregnant, and kept his hand on his skinny blonde girlfriends knee the whole 3 hour flight.

 

I guess he was afraid I was gonna hit on her but luckily for him she had short hair.

[autumnnight]

The thing about attraction is that whether we want it to or not, and even if we think we CAN make some broad generalizations, there will always be couples that defy the generalization, like the one gaius just mentioned. For every post taking a job at "fat women" or "fat men", there are some stereotypically attractive people who LIKE overweight women or men. For every person who whines about not getting a date because they are short, there is out there somewhere a 5'9" woman who is dating a guy who is 5'4" (or in the case of a friend of mine, married to him)

[elaine567]

She is a fat woman who doesn't want to be rejected for being fat, but who in turn is rejecting fat men. That may not be delusional, but it is the very definition of hypocrisy. The fact that most of the men here find that ridiculous could be an indicator of her success rate, but the only way to truly know for sure would be to just ask her.

 

But she doesn't need to be popular, she doesn't need a high success rate, all she needs is one or two guys who are willing to take her on.

As someone else said she has cahones and from what she writes I think most likely a sense of humour, and for some that will be an attractive quality.

 

She is just a woman looking for some love, give her a break.

Edited April 21, 2015 by elaine567

[toolforgrowth]

So, it's okay for you, and other men here, to think that she's a hypocrite for not wanting to date fat men, but I'm angry (and need to let it go), when I point out the same hypocrisy in men who think themselves above dating women their own age, and insist on dating younger women?

 

Before you object once again: I am not saying that you exclusively date younger women. I also don't take those men seriously, most of the time - I grew very tired of the bashing last week, so have avoided large threads ever since.

 

If a person is x, and they refuse to date people of the opposite sex who are also x because they find it unattractive, I find that hypocritical. It's their life, and they can have that preference if they choose, but yes I find it hypocritical.

 

Comparing age to weight is a little like apples to oranges, though. One can typically do something about being fat, whereas we have no control over the fact that we age. And I'm not exactly into grannies, if you know what I mean. Although I've seen some REALLY hot women in their 40s that I'm sure would be amazing sexually...

 

But that's my personal bias creeping in.

[elaine567]

If a person is x, and they refuse to date people of the opposite sex who are also x because they find it unattractive, I find that hypocritical. It's their life, and they can have that preference if they choose, but yes I find it hypocritical.

 

Comparing age to weight is a little like apples to oranges, though. One can typically do something about being fat, whereas we have no control over the fact that we age. And I'm not exactly into grannies, if you know what I mean. Although I've seen some REALLY hot women in their 40s that I'm sure would be amazing sexually...

 

But that's my personal bias creeping in.

 

If a thin man wants to date fat women and will not date thin women as he finds them unattractive, is he being hypocritical?

Edited April 21, 2015 by elaine567
m

[toolforgrowth]

But she doesn't need to be popular, she doesn't need a high success rate, all she needs is one or two guys who are willing to take her on.

As someone else said she has cahones and from what she writes I think most likely a sense of humour, and for some that will be an attractive quality.

 

She is just a woman looking for some love, give her a break.

 

I don't care what she does. It's her life, she can live it however she wants. But that doesn't mean she's still not a hypocrite.

 

I once came across a profile by a young single mother who was looking for a man who would be good to her kids, but she herself would not date single dad. Can she look for such a man? You betcha. Is that not totally hypocritical of her also? Absolutely.

 

The rules apply to everyone else but themselves. THAT is the crux of the matter, and is what I take issue with, because being in a relationship with a person with that mindset is extremely difficult.

[toolforgrowth]

If a thin man wants to date fat women and will not date thin women as he finds them unattractive, is he being hypocritical?

 

To be bluntly honest, in that situation I tend to think that has less to do with preference and more to do with desperation!

 

Hypocrisy enters the equation when the person has some kind of behavior that society generally considers unhealthy, unattractive, or which led to serious consequences. Like a smoker refusing to date other smokers. Or a fat person refusing to date other fat people. Or a single mom refusing to date a single dad. These people chose to smoke, get fat, or have unprotected sex and have kids. These outcomes weren't created in a vacuum.

[elaine567]

I don't care what she does. It's her life, she can live it however she wants. But that doesn't mean she's still not a hypocrite.

 

I once came across a profile by a young single mother who was looking for a man who would be good to her kids, but she herself would not date single dad. Can she look for such a man? You betcha. Is that not totally hypocritical of her also? Absolutely.

 

The rules apply to everyone else but themselves. THAT is the crux of the matter, and is what I take issue with, because being in a relationship with a person with that mindset is extremely difficult.

 

But inherent to your argument is judgement, you judge fat women, you judge the single mother, I guess the thin man in my example is not being hypocritical in your eyes...

 

The single mother may not want a single dad because she feels she already has enough children to look after, she may not want to deal with an ex wife, she may have had a bad experience with a single dad... etc.

Her reasons for her preferences may be purely practical and sensible.

But your judgement is that she is already seriously flawed so she should take what she can and she is thus being hypocritical...

[toolforgrowth]

But inherent to your argument is judgement, you judge fat women, you judge the single mother, I guess the thin man in my example is not being hypocritical in your eyes...

 

The single mother may not want a single dad because she feels she already has enough children to look after, she may not want to deal with an ex wife, she may have had a bad experience with a single dad... etc.

Her reasons for her preferences may be purely practical and sensible.

But your judgement is that she is already seriously flawed so she should take what she can and she is thus being hypocritical...

 

Well, the word "leagues" IS in the title of this thread.

 

Sure, I'm judging. Absolutely. Don't you judge men based on what traits you're looking for? If you don't want to date smoker, aren't you judging them based on the fact they smoke? If you don't want to date a fat guy, aren't you judging him for being fat? If you don't want to date a guy with kids, aren't you judging him for having them? It may not be a major judgment, but nonetheless your are identifying something about that man that you deem unattractive. That is a judgment.

 

Merriam-Webster's definition of judgment: "an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought; the ability to make good decisions about what should be done."

 

I judge those who are hypocritical to be unsuitable partners for me. Seems pretty straightforward to me.