Neurosurgeon Describes Heaven He Saw While in Coma

[skydiveaddict]

No. Your failure to understand my points in either thread, can't be helped. Lead, horse, water.

 

Ok. I'll let your posts speak for themselves.

[threebyfate]

Ok. I'll let your posts speak for themselves.

They do, loud and clear. In the other thread, the focus was treating your partner's beliefs respectfully when they differ from your own. In this thread, it's about whether or not you personally buy into someone's NDE, one who's pulling the fallacy of appeal to authority (neurosurgeon) even though he, at the time of the NDE had the IQ of a ruttabaga, who's trying to drum up interest, in order to sell his book.

 

Note how NDE, book selling man isn't my partner?

[skydiveaddict]

Well I looked up Pascals Wager. I am sure I have come across it previously but it was good to refresh my memory. Thanks for this.

 

Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

 

1."God is, or He is not"

2.A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.

3.According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.

4.You must wager. (It's not optional.)

 

Exactly. That's why someone like me, virtually without faith takes the side of the wager that says God exists. It is a fear of hell rather than faith.

 

5.Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.

 

This is where my catholic faith and the wager collide. Pascal says that if I lose, I lose nothing. But, I live in terror of the possibility that if I bet wrong, then I will spend eternity in hell.

Edited November 17, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[Eve]

Exactly. That's why someone like me, virtually without faith takes the side of the wager that says God exists. It is a fear of hell rather than faith.

 

 

 

This is where my catholic faith and the wager collide. Pascal says that if I lose, I lose nothing. But, I live in terror of the possibility that if I bet wrong, then I will spend eternity in hell.

 

I think it comes down to whether you believe God loves you or not. If you don't, hell is a reality. If you do, you are free to come to Him for assurance, direction, guidance, cleansing, love.. and all that. Hence, Jesus, the intermediary. Sorry, I don't know much about Catholicism and how one attains such comfort in their faith.

 

Experiences such as visions etc as discussed by the story in the OP, are an affirmation of all the above. Not heard any testimonies which are different; the person turns to God and God rejects them. So, I would say that the wager is a good outline of ones approaching options only. The rest is really about whether you believe God loves you.

 

.. I remember the turmoil well. You are not alone. Maybe without the turmoil there is no gain? Still, I have had some marvelous bust ups with God because I needed to be sure that He does love me. All things said and done have a point of origin and I do believe that knowing Gods love is what secures us to live our highest authentic lives which eventually surpass the notion of hell.. because there becomes no room there for us.

 

*HUGS*

 

I really understand. It's not a nice place to be.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Gunny376]

Which hell though? You can't please all gods at the same time.

 

 

Or to put it another way ~ "I would rather live my life life beliving there is a God and dying not to find one, than to live my life beliving there wasn't one only to find out after my mortal death that there is one!"

 

Again, Pascal's Wager. Its circular logic.

[pie2]

Being a neurosurgeon with less than half a brain functioning while experiencing his NDE, doesn't make him anymore or less an authority of the subject.

 

I can relate to some of the wariness you have about someone who is selling a book.

 

But, the doctor says that, based on the tools used to measure his brain activity, there should have been no way for him to have any dream-like experiences. As a neurosurgeon, I think he has a much better understanding of the brain than we do! He knows how the brain functions while in a coma, how the brain "should" be acting based on the tests doctors perform, what brain scans associated with dreams look like, etc. He says that there was no evidence that he was having a dream or any such experience, based on the test results he was able to see after recovery.

 

So I do think he has a bit of authority on the subject, or, at the very least, a quite unique perspective on the situation.

[TheFinalWord]

I can relate to some of the wariness you have about someone who is selling a book.

 

But, the doctor says that, based on the tools used to measure his brain activity, there should have been no way for him to have any dream-like experiences. As a neurosurgeon, I think he has a much better understanding of the brain than we do! He knows how the brain functions while in a coma, how the brain "should" be acting based on the tests doctors perform, what brain scans associated with dreams look like, etc. He says that there was no evidence that he was having a dream or any such experience, based on the test results he was able to see after recovery.

 

So I do think he has a bit of authority on the subject, or, at the very least, a quite unique perspective on the situation.

 

I agree, I am wary too.

 

I also don't understand how it is any more logical to assume the motives of this gentleman. I mean, a Harvard neurosurgeon seems to have a lot to lose by making these claims. I can't imagine money was an issue for this guy or a strong driver for writing this book. Could be wrong though, just no evidence I can see that points to that.

 

"The annual salary of board certified neurosurgeon ranges from $300,351 to $736,394. The median annual salary for a Neurosurgeon in the United States is $490,040. The salary, like all procedural specialty, at entry-level is less but with more than 3 years of experience it could reach or even surpass the median."

Edited November 18, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[skydiveaddict]

Which hell though? You can't please all gods at the same time.

 

Not true. The wager only says that there may be a heaven and a hell; and that you must bet one way or the other. Religion never enters into it. But, I only know (and very pessimistically so), of the Christian God, and therefore my fear of hell. So my "faith" can almost entirely be left out of the equation. But since that is my only reference point, I must defer to the Christian God.

Edited November 18, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[pie2]

I agree, I am wary too.

 

I also don't understand how it is any more logical to assume the motives of this gentleman. I mean, a Harvard neurosurgeon seems to have a lot to lose by making these claims. I can't imagine money was an issue for this guy or a strong driver for writing this book. Could be wrong though, just no evidence I can see that points to that.

 

"The annual salary of board certified neurosurgeon ranges from $300,351 to $736,394. The median annual salary for a Neurosurgeon in the United States is $490,040. The salary, like all procedural specialty, at entry-level is less but with more than 3 years of experience it could reach or even surpass the median."

 

That's true!

 

Earlier I posted that I would feel better if I knew that proceeds from the book were going to a special cause though, for the very fact that I'm sure he's not hurting for money. And I would assume that a close encounter with God would motivate one to be preoccupied with the well-being of others.

 

But as you say, there is no evidence that he's not, so I guess I shouldn't be so cynical!!

[Gunny376]

Which hell though? You can't please all gods at the same time.

 

 

Putting organized religion as we all currently know and understand it ~ and just looking at it from a rational (in-so-much as is possible) and scientific perspective, me, myself and I have been a round and a round with the issue personally.

 

EVERYTHING that I have read and come across in my reading (And I read A lot. To qualify where I'm coming from I read National Geographic, American Scientific, Discovery, Astronomy, Popular Science, Popular Mechanics. I read mostly non-fiction. I'm interested in the subject of archaeology, anthropology, history, physics, mathematics, astronomy, military related-history, Bio's, law, constitution, ancient texts, civilizations, religion etc ~ among other things) COMES back time and time again to their being a God (If you would) not necessary the gods of ancient times of the Hebrews, Judeo-Christian (Anyone who's done any actual real in-depth study of such soon comes to the realization that either the "God" of the Holy Bible is either two seperate gods or God has a split personality disorder. (The only conclusion I've personally can come to about this is that this is again another example of "man attempting to bring God down to his level rather than man striving to ascend to God's level?)

 

I've read "Proof of Heaven ~ A Neurosurgron's Journey Into the Afterlife" by Dr. Eben Alexander, M. D.

 

He may be a neurosurgeon? But an writer and author he most definately NOT! And it doesn't look as though the publisher has put too much of a heavy hand into the editing of the book ~ just too sell books. It simply someone attempting to express and convey thier own personal (?) perspective/viewpoint/belief (Again ?) as best they can? IMHO neither the author nor the publisher have any particular ax to grind, nor dog in any particular fight. Neither the author nor the publisher seem to be attempting to prove anything, nor validate any one nor given position. They just seem to be putting it all "out there" to us to make of it what you will.

[TheFinalWord]

That's true!

 

Earlier I posted that I would feel better if I knew that proceeds from the book were going to a special cause though, for the very fact that I'm sure he's not hurting for money. And I would assume that a close encounter with God would motivate one to be preoccupied with the well-being of others.

 

But as you say, there is no evidence that he's not, so I guess I shouldn't be so cynical!!

 

Oops! no, I meant to quote ThreeByFate. Not you It seemed like she was saying book sales were the motive underlying his claims. I'm no neurosurgeon, but it seems like that career pays pretty good and for him to write this book was a lot more risk than potential reward. I didn't see her logic/evidence in essentially claiming book sales, i.e. money, was his motive for writing the book.

[Gunny376]

In all fairness? And for my two-cents worth? (That and another $1.56 + tax will get you a cup of coffee down at the local Waffle House ~ don't forget the tip! )

 

Its all well and good to state your opinion about near death experiences, heaven and hell, God, religious believes yada ~ yada! But if your going to make a statement about the author (any author or book) or book? At least go out and read the book.

[pie2]

I've read "Proof of Heaven ~ A Neurosurgron's Journey Into the Afterlife" by Dr. Eben Alexander, M. D.

 

He may be a neurosurgeon? But an writer and author he most definately NOT! And it doesn't look as though the publisher has put too much of a heavy hand into the editing of the book ~ just too sell books. It simply someone attempting to express and convey thier own personal (?) perspective/viewpoint/belief (Again ?) as best they can? IMHO neither the author nor the publisher have any particular ax to grind, nor dog in any particular fight. Neither the author nor the publisher seem to be attempting to prove anything, nor validate any one nor given position. They just seem to be putting it all "out there" to us to make of it what you will.

 

Also, when he said that he is ready to confront skeptics, including those in his own professional community, he comes off as someone who has a pretty important message he wants to get out, and will take any risk to do so.

[pie2]

Oops! no, I meant to quote ThreeByFate. Not you

 

 

I'm no neurosurgeon, but it seems like that career pays pretty good and for him to write this book was a lot more risk than potential reward.

 

Yes, I can see how he's put his professional reputation on the line.

[Gunny376]

Oops! no, I meant to quote ThreeByFate. Not you It seemed like she was saying book sales were the motive underlying his claims. I'm no neurosurgeon, but it seems like that career pays pretty good and for him to write this book was a lot more risk than potential reward. I didn't see her logic/evidence in essentially claiming book sales, i.e. money, was his motive for writing the book.

 

In stating the following,I'm neither condoning nor endorsing. But if you want to put action into words?

 

You can let him know via:

 

www.Eternea.org or you can just send him a "general delivery" letter via the U.S. Postal Service

 

Dr. Eben Alexander, M. D.

Lynchburh. VA

 

The "gist" of what I got from the book? He wasn't / didn't write it for profit. The sense that I got from it? Was that he wrote it because he had a revalaton and alternating sense of reality ~ that is to say he experienced something that "rocked his world" Professionally? He's lost "points" by coming forward with this. In "His" professional reality and world? He's "lost it!"

 

For him as a neurosugeon to write such a book? Professionally is the same as Obama going on Fox News and saying ~ "You know what? You're right! I'm going to join the other team! I'm going to join the Republican Party!"

[Gunny376]

Also, when he said that he is ready to confront skeptics, including those in his own professional community, he comes off as someone who has a pretty important message he wants to get out, and will take any risk to do so.

 

I "Liked" myself!!!!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

Sorry! Sleep deprivation from work!

 

IOW pie2? "News one could most definately use!"

[pie2]

I "Liked" myself!!!!!!"

 

Nothing wrong with liking yourself, Gunny!

 

Now get some sleep! :p:D

[Gunny376]

Also, when he said that he is ready to confront skeptics, including those in his own professional community, he comes off as someone who has a pretty important message he wants to get out, and will take any risk to do so.

 

In the book he speaks about a world class neurosurgeon he had called ~ essentially his mentor, who he doesn't name (because of professional repercussions) who's Father was dying and who begged his M.D. son to do something to end his end of life suffering? But who in the end of (the MD son's father) begin to hold conversations with his Mother who had been "dead" for 64 years just before his death?

 

Sam Kinson, the 1980's comedian who had been feverishly raised as a Pentecostal (They're out there ~ we're talking poisonous snake holders, drinking lye to attest to their faith and belief in God) was killed at the high point of his career? He was riding high! He was T-boned by a 17 year old drunk driver, as while laying on the side of the road questioned "Why? Why now?"

 

His last words? "Oh! OK! I understand,................................"

 

Sam had once been a SERIOUS Pentecostal Preacher himself!

[Gunny376]

Err, . The wager proposes that there may or may not be a god, and that is the object of the bet. Heaven and hell are only introduced later to evaluate the gain/loss of either decision.

 

 

I don't understand this reasoning at all. You are knowingly basing your decision on faulty logic? *shrugs*

 

Not necessarly so IMHO?

 

More of a case of insuffiecent information ~ and data. And then there is information, data, knowledge, experience, perspective.

 

Just for an example? It well known that the common house fly has not two but many eyes. The perspective of a house fly is~ would be differently than you or I? Would it not?

 

Have you ever really noticed the eyes of just women? Its a fact that "generally speaking of your average woman" ~ women have a 20% greater field of vison than men do? Women also have a greater attention to detail than men do. That is a matter of fact ~ not of any and all women ~ but of women in general.

 

People today want to take the "bibles' of the Three main faiths and proclaim them as absolute fact. What they fail to take into consideration? Is that for the better part of just last 2000 years ~ Hell the last 200 years? Just being able to read was above and beyond the average person.

[Taramere]

He saw "female" angels. In the Bible, angels are male without exception. They are referred to as men when they appear in human form, and the masculine pronoun "he" is always used.

 

The best thing about God and an afterlife, if such things existed, would be our exposure to absolute, incontrovertible truths untainted by earthly human desires, motivations, arrogance and power play.

 

Dante's notion of limbo had many philosophers and great thinkers in it...which sounds quite nice really. Certainly better than sitting in the inner circle watching Satan munch Judas Iscariot's head, but the frustrating aspect would be the lack of absolute proof that any one of them were right or wrong in their theories.

[threebyfate]

I can relate to some of the wariness you have about someone who is selling a book.

 

But, the doctor says that, based on the tools used to measure his brain activity, there should have been no way for him to have any dream-like experiences. As a neurosurgeon, I think he has a much better understanding of the brain than we do! He knows how the brain functions while in a coma, how the brain "should" be acting based on the tests doctors perform, what brain scans associated with dreams look like, etc. He says that there was no evidence that he was having a dream or any such experience, based on the test results he was able to see after recovery.

 

So I do think he has a bit of authority on the subject, or, at the very least, a quite unique perspective on the situation.

Which tools did they use? If it was an fMRI, this only takes a surface view of the human brain.

 

I agree, I am wary too.

 

I also don't understand how it is any more logical to assume the motives of this gentleman. I mean, a Harvard neurosurgeon seems to have a lot to lose by making these claims. I can't imagine money was an issue for this guy or a strong driver for writing this book. Could be wrong though, just no evidence I can see that points to that.

 

"The annual salary of board certified neurosurgeon ranges from $300,351 to $736,394. The median annual salary for a Neurosurgeon in the United States is $490,040. The salary, like all procedural specialty, at entry-level is less but with more than 3 years of experience it could reach or even surpass the median."

People don't just write books for money. Sometimes fame draws and with neurosurgeons, there's a high percentage who are very narcissistic.

[Taramere]

Factors/possibilities to consider:

 

1) Angels are described as beautiful beings in the Bible. However, even the fallen angels of Satan are beautiful (in appearance). In fact, Satan is a "cherub" angel in the Bible and his appearance--if one were to see him--would be so incredibly beautiful that it borders on terrifying.

 

2) If this man is NOT a believer in Christ (which I don't pretend to know one way or the other), then there is no way, biblically speaking, that angels of the Lord would say such a thing. If this were the case, they would tell him to repent or prepare his heart for Christ.

 

3) If this man IS a believer, then they possibly were angels of the Lord.

 

4) The fact that he PERCEIVED these beings to be female doesn't mean that they ARE. It's possible that the general trait of beauty in angels was mistaken by him as being a female.

 

So are you now saying that absolute truths are not available in heaven (ie that even when there, he might be misled about the things around him)...or are you saying that he was in hell? (I tend towards TBF's view on this, but for the sake of discussion I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he had this experience).

 

If, when you die, some hitherto unknown part of you goes off to another plane and finds female angels there and is told by a loud booming voice "I'm God, and I can vouch for them being female angels". Or if there are other ways in which this supernatural plane isn't quite what the book (written by men on earth) said it would be, will you assume that you must actually be in hell ? There might be some people there who you didn't think would be allowed in. Will you petition the Almighty against their presence there? Have a stand-up row with him where you reference the Bible and cross examine him on points where it's inconsistent with his claims? Accuse him (or her!) of being Satan?

 

I'd have thought that kind of disbelief would get you kicked out of and barred from the many mansions. If you were lucky, maybe you'd just spend the next eternity arguing about it in limbo. I mean it's one thing not to believe it when you're on earth and reading a book...but to hold fast to the word of that book when God's right there in front of you telling you something different? Seems a bit risky to me. I'm not trying to be mean about your beliefs, but it just seems to me that you would hold on to your earthly taught beliefs no matter what...even if in some after death situation you were confronted with something quite different from the things you were taught to believe.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Taramere

[Eve]

Based on Scripture, I think the rule of thumb is that angels come with a command related to what already exists of God; visions of heaven, timely help out of trouble. The presence is unmistakably of God.

 

Demons present other beliefs and the person will not already be a Christian; mormonism, thelema etc..

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TheFinalWord]

People don't just write books for money. Sometimes fame draws and with neurosurgeons, there's a high percentage who are very narcissistic.

 

Well, I'll have to take your word on that as I only know one neurosurgeon on more than a casual social level. As an academic myself who has contributed to books, publications, and conference presentations, I can tell you that reputations matters a lot. Just seems he has a lot more to lose by writing this book as far as his reputation goes, than just shutting up about it, and sticking to writing academic textbooks.

[carhill]

Here's a transcript of a radio interview with Dr. Alexander:

 

http://www.bbsradio.com/host/abstractillusionradio/archives/transcripts/index.php?working_file=Abstract_Illusion_Radio_2011-02-17.html

 

 

Apparently, less than a year after his NDE, he had a few issues that required some intervention from the Virginia Board of Medicine:

Alexander, III, Eben, MD 0101-239440

Lynchburg, VA

 

03/23/09

 

Reprimand, $3500 monetary penalty, based on two patient

cases of performing surgery on the wrong surgical site; and

in one of the cases, failure to disclose same to the patient, and

altering the original operative report to obscure the fact of the

wrong site surgery.

 

My read is that he's a gifted clinician who is somewhat of a maverick. When I saw a picture of him as a younger man, the first guy I thought of was Steve Jobs.

 

As far as what he purports to have seen/experienced while in a coma, anything is possible. Our understanding of the brain, along with our understanding of the universe, is still in its infancy. Time, another area where our understanding has a long way to go, will tell if his observations have any traction or not.

 

My bet is that his published guides to neurosurgery may see an uptick in sales due to publicity surrounding the mass market paperback on his NDE. So the world turns.