Self-Esteem Vs. Righteous Anger

[verhrzn]

Apparently, the others consider the cheer, ludicrous as it is, as part of the meeting.

 

Likely, they hate it, too, but they stick it out and look ridiculous together.

 

Hurray let's all be lemurs! Again, since it's not my personality to either look ridiculous JUST because it's expected of me, or be self-depreciating about refusing to look ridiculous, what am I supposed to do to "improve my social skills"?

 

And what is our personality if NOT our behavior? If I cheer and look ridiculous like a lemur, then aren't I betraying who I really am (someone who f*cking hates that ****?)

[xxoo]

Hurray let's all be lemurs! Again, since it's not my personality to either look ridiculous JUST because it's expected of me, or be self-depreciating about refusing to look ridiculous, what am I supposed to do to "improve my social skills"?

 

And what is our personality if NOT our behavior? If I cheer and look ridiculous like a lemur, then aren't I betraying who I really am (someone who f*cking hates that ****?)

 

It's not my "personality" to look ridiculous, but I'll do it on occasion for the group, if I care about the group. It doesn't require changing my personality to suck it up and participate in something momentary and harmless, but good for the group.

 

Alternatively, I can beg off politely. Humor helps, but is not required. Some sort of acknowledgement is required if you are slipping away on a regular basis, at exactly the moment of the cheer.

 

You can argue about it, or you can learn about it and benefit from better social skills. What do you choose?

Edited October 17, 2012 by xxoo

[verhrzn]

It's not my "personality" to look ridiculous, but I'll do it on occasion for the group, if I care about the group. It doesn't require changing my personality to suck it up and participate in something momentary and harmless, but good for the group.

 

Alternatively, I can beg off politely. Humor helps, but is not required. Some sort of acknowledgement is required if you are slipping away on a regular basis, at exactly the moment of the cheer.

 

You can argue about it, or you can learn about it and benefit from better social skills. What do you choose?

 

I choose to not apologize in something I don't believe in. Like I said, I find it pointless and unproductive. If my manager doesn't care about me not participating, what right do other people have to demand I participate?

 

Again, why do I have to beg off of something that is not a requirement and serves absolutely no purpose EXCEPT being ridiculous? I don't see it as harmless; I am not interested in wastes of time, or frankly, even "bonding" with my coworkers.

 

My coworkers are my coworkers, not my friends. I engage with them professionally, but have no interest in bonding socially or emotionally. I don't see what is rude or wrong with this attitude. If I'm doing my work and assisting other people in their work, how am I not a team player JUST because I won't do a cheer/drink beer with them? It makes NO sense to me.

[xxoo]

I choose to not apologize in something I don't believe in. Like I said, I find it pointless and unproductive. If my manager doesn't care about me not participating, what right do other people have to demand I participate?

 

Again, why do I have to beg off of something that is not a requirement and serves absolutely no purpose EXCEPT being ridiculous? I don't see it as harmless; I am not interested in wastes of time, or frankly, even "bonding" with my coworkers.

 

My coworkers are my coworkers, not my friends. I engage with them professionally, but have no interest in bonding socially or emotionally. I don't see what is rude or wrong with this attitude. If I'm doing my work and assisting other people in their work, how am I not a team player JUST because I won't do a cheer/drink beer with them? It makes NO sense to me.

 

Ok, fine. It really is your choice, and no one is going to require you to socialize in normal ways with your coworkers.

 

But your choice not to do so will affect your career, just as your social choices will affect your relationships. That's a reality you need to accept.

 

It makes no sense to you, but it isn't going to change. Learn it, accept it, and choose. If you choose to remain an outsider, at least acknowledge that you made the choice.

[verhrzn]

Ok, fine. It really is your choice, and no one is going to require you to socialize in normal ways with your coworkers.

 

But your choice not to do so will affect your career, just as your social choices will affect your relationships. That's a reality you need to accept.

 

It makes no sense to you, but it isn't going to change. Learn it, accept it, and choose. If you choose to remain an outsider, at least acknowledge that you made the choice.

 

But why do I have to? Why is it not just enough that I work hard, and succeed at, ya know, work? I have a hard enough time dealing with people who I choose to be around.

 

This is what I mean by you expecting me to change my entire personality. My personality is not built to socialize. It's just not. I don't smooze or suck up. And it is disgusting to me that working hard is not enough to succeed in a freaking work environment.

 

If I was attractive, however... I wouldn't need to. I wouldn't need to work so goddamn hard at being likable and personable and what not, because people would already consider me attractive.

 

Why exactly do you think it's all right to change my personality, but not my looks?

[xxoo]

But why do I have to? Why is it not just enough that I work hard, and succeed at, ya know, work? I have a hard enough time dealing with people who I choose to be around.

 

This is what I mean by you expecting me to change my entire personality. My personality is not built to socialize. It's just not. I don't smooze or suck up. And it is disgusting to me that working hard is not enough to succeed in a freaking work environment.

 

If I was attractive, however... I wouldn't need to. I wouldn't need to work so goddamn hard at being likable and personable and what not, because people would already consider me attractive.

 

Why exactly do you think it's all right to change my personality, but not my looks?

 

Last try....

 

You do not need to change your personality. You do not need to schmooze or even socialize.

 

You do need to be perceived as polite. You can keep to yourself AND be polite, but you need to learn how to manage that.

 

If you believe it would be easier to change your looks enough so that you could win favor based on your "good looks"--go for it. But looks fade for everyone, and skills are forever. Again, your choice!

[TheBigQuestion]

By all means, keep doing the exact same thing you've always done and simultaneously complain about getting the exact same results.

[verhrzn]

By all means, keep doing the exact same thing you've always done and simultaneously complain about getting the exact same results.

 

Well this thread was an attempt to do something different... instead of constantly hating myself because of what society tells me I am, I was hoping to inspire myself and other ugly girls to righteous anger.

 

But no, apparently that's against the rules of the Self Esteem Brigade.

 

Much better instead to completely change who I am as a person! To participate in ridiculous social conventions just because that's what I'm told I should do.

 

I guess I did have it all wrong before... it's not my looks I should change, it's absolutely everything else about myself. Gee, what a much better solution.

[Pirouette]

Well this thread was an attempt to do something different... instead of constantly hating myself because of what society tells me I am, I was hoping to inspire myself and other ugly girls to righteous anger.

 

But no, apparently that's against the rules of the Self Esteem Brigade.

 

Much better instead to completely change who I am as a person! To participate in ridiculous social conventions just because that's what I'm told I should do.

 

I guess I did have it all wrong before... it's not my looks I should change, it's absolutely everything else about myself. Gee, what a much better solution.

 

Trying to change society's perception of women is one thing, now you want to change any social conventions that you deem ridiculous? Who is the arbiter of what is correct or not? What are laws except socially governed rules? Any one who wants to stand up to fight for change in any area, well that is their right, but they need to have well reasoned arguments and solutions behind them to make any headway.

 

Saying society should change because you don't feel like doing something, because it inconveniences you or makes you feel ridiculous, is not much of an argument.

[TheBigQuestion]

Well this thread was an attempt to do something different... instead of constantly hating myself because of what society tells me I am, I was hoping to inspire myself and other ugly girls to righteous anger.

 

But no, apparently that's against the rules of the Self Esteem Brigade.

 

Much better instead to completely change who I am as a person! To participate in ridiculous social conventions just because that's what I'm told I should do.

 

I guess I did have it all wrong before... it's not my looks I should change, it's absolutely everything else about myself. Gee, what a much better solution.

 

You seem to take life way too seriously. Why does a stupid cheer bother you so much? Yes, almost all workplace "motivational" tools are laughably stupid, and even most managers recognize their uselessness but utilize them anyway. I don't quite understand how you'd be sacrificing something intrinsic to yourself just by saying some BS cheer for a few seconds before going back to work.

 

You can still have all your thoughts, opinions, quirks, and all your other traits while learning how to become more outwardly pleasant. If you come across as a humorless grump at work, why on Earth would you be surprised that you aren't first on people's minds when promotions come up? People like hard workers, but they also want to be around pleasant people to whom they relate. Most jobs have a social aspect of some sort. Just as an example, I went on an interview last Friday for a judicial clerkship (typical 1-year post-law school position). That's a job that is EXTREMELY quiet and isolated. When you have exactly 4 co-workers, are you going to hire a person that you don't think you'll be able to mesh with very well? I know I wouldn't. Would you prefer to like or dislike your co-workers?

 

People in this thread have given you some advice on how to fix your self-described social deficiencies, but you drop a deuce on it from a great height. If you firmly believe that the outward expression of your personality is holding you back at work and in relationships of all sorts, it is pure insanity to not want to take steps to change said expression. I don't understand at all why you find this idea so offensive.

[verhrzn]

Trying to change society's perception of women is one thing, now you want to change any social conventions that you deem ridiculous? Who is the arbiter of what is correct or not? What are laws except socially governed rules? Any one who wants to stand up to fight for change in any area, well that is their right, but they need to have well reasoned arguments and solutions behind them to make any headway.

 

Saying society should change because you don't feel like doing something, because it inconveniences you or makes you feel ridiculous, is not much of an argument.

 

People can do whatever they freaking feel like it. They feel good doing a cheer, fine, go do it. What I DON'T appreciate is being labeled or judged because I don't want to participate. Live and let live. Is it really killing anybody or hurting anyone if I don't join in the cheer? No. So what's wrong with them doing what they want, and me doing what I want?

 

The only way I think society should change is to stop judging people based on ridiculous and arbitrary measures like, oh, I don't know, judging whether someone is allowed to be out in public without being ridiculed by how round her butt is, or judging someone job's performance because they don't want to engage in a weekly cheer. Yes, I want society to change to be less judgmental and less ridiculous IN its judgments. Is that somehow wrong?

[verhrzn]

You seem to take life way too seriously. Why does a stupid cheer bother you so much? Yes, almost all workplace "motivational" tools are laughably stupid, and even most managers recognize their uselessness but utilize them anyway. I don't quite understand how you'd be sacrificing something intrinsic to yourself just by saying some BS cheer for a few seconds before going back to work.

 

You can still have all your thoughts, opinions, quirks, and all your other traits while learning how to become more outwardly pleasant. If you come across as a humorless grump at work, why on Earth would you be surprised that you aren't first on people's minds when promotions come up? People like hard workers, but they also want to be around pleasant people to whom they relate. Most jobs have a social aspect of some sort. Just as an example, I went on an interview last Friday for a judicial clerkship (typical 1-year post-law school position). That's a job that is EXTREMELY quiet and isolated. When you have exactly 4 co-workers, are you going to hire a person that you don't think you'll be able to mesh with very well? I know I wouldn't. Would you prefer to like or dislike your co-workers?

 

People in this thread have given you some advice on how to fix your self-described social deficiencies, but you drop a deuce on it from a great height. If you firmly believe that the outward expression of your personality is holding you back at work and in relationships of all sorts, it is pure insanity to not want to take steps to change said expression. I don't understand at all why you find this idea so offensive.

 

Because I find it demoralizing. It makes me feel like even more a lemming than I already do at my job (for our yearly department training day, we all had to wear matching tye dye t-shirts. Kill.me.now.) I value independence; making myself ridiculous, and forcing me to be "part of a group" in a way that does not at all relate to the job, makes me feel down the rest of the day.

 

I don't like unproductive things. I don't like wastes of time, or doing things at work that are not directly related to my job. It's like when my dad complained that at his monthly SWAT meeting, they made everyone do this weird "team building" exercise with cups. You know what's another great way to encourage team building? Actually doing SWAT drills.

 

Unproductive ridiculous wastes of time offend me. I don't pretend that everyone has to share this offense; if it works for you, hey, congrats to you. You go do your cheer, and I'll get back to work. It's when it starts becoming an "integral" part of the job that my hackles start raising. Again, I don't see how I am acting in a way that is somehow so offensive. I just slide back to my desk while people cheer.

 

And the reason I am pissed off at people's suggestion is because this entire thread people have been arguing to find value in oneself, to be true to who you are, to have "self-esteem".... and then turning right around and telling me all the ways I suck and should change. The hypocritical attitude is just mind-blowing. So, I should value myself and not care what other people think.... about my appearance. But when it comes to my personality, oh yeah, I should change absolutely everything about myself so I have worth to the people around me. *Headdesk*

[Anela]

It would crush me if my mother thought I was ugly (referring back to other posts). It hurts more when something comes from my parents or my sister, than it does from anyone else.

 

Save money for your children, if you want to do that, but don't say that it's for plastic surgery (I'm not sure if you were going to tell them that, if it ever happened, or if you were just going to give them the money if they brought it up).

[verhrzn]

Also I get the impression people on this forum no longer wish to help, or even really care.... they just want me to shut the hell up.

[TheBigQuestion]

 

And the reason I am pissed off at people's suggestion is because this entire thread people have been arguing to find value in oneself, to be true to who you are, to have "self-esteem".... and then turning right around and telling me all the ways I suck and should change. The hypocritical attitude is just mind-blowing. So, I should value myself and not care what other people think.... about my appearance. But when it comes to my personality, oh yeah, I should change absolutely everything about myself so I have worth to the people around me. *Headdesk*

 

Again, I don't see how suggestions on how to be a bit more socially "with-it" is equivalent to changing absolutely everything about yourself.

[verhrzn]

Again, I don't see how suggestions on how to be a bit more socially "with-it" is equivalent to changing absolutely everything about yourself.

 

Well it is if nothing about me is with-it socially.

[Pirouette]

People can do whatever they freaking feel like it. They feel good doing a cheer, fine, go do it. What I DON'T appreciate is being labeled or judged because I don't want to participate. Live and let live. Is it really killing anybody or hurting anyone if I don't join in the cheer? No. So what's wrong with them doing what they want, and me doing what I want?

 

The only way I think society should change is to stop judging people based on ridiculous and arbitrary measures like, oh, I don't know, judging whether someone is allowed to be out in public without being ridiculed by how round her butt is, or judging someone job's performance because they don't want to engage in a weekly cheer. Yes, I want society to change to be less judgmental and less ridiculous IN its judgments. Is that somehow wrong?

 

Well we don't live in a world where everyone can do what they feel like. Aren't you judging the people who participate as lemmings? And really, it's not hurting your job. They haven't fired you have they? Demoted you? Harassed you? And maybe you haven't been promoted because you don't demonstrate all the qualities management likes to see in employees in upper levels, up to and including getting along with others. Maybe that means you're good at your current job and wouldn't be a good fit in a higher level which may involve more interaction with others.

 

You don't understand that there are social ramifications for everything even if they stop short of murder and harm? And like I said, you've judged certain values as ridiculous, but maybe no one else does. What if a manager doesn't want you on their team because they don't think you'd be a good fit? Is that wrong?

 

As for rudeness, unfortunately, you can't force anyone to not be rude to you. You can stand up for yourself, and you can try to shame them, and you can refuse to allow it to stop you from leaving the house.

 

You want a world that is kind, non-judgmental, fair, and wonderful for everyone. All of human history should tell you that it's impossible.

[xxoo]

Also I get the impression people on this forum no longer wish to help, or even really care.... they just want me to shut the hell up.

 

We care, and want to help, but are out of ideas. There is little more to say.

[verhrzn]

Well we don't live in a world where everyone can do what they feel like. Aren't you judging the people who participate as lemmings? And really, it's not hurting your job. They haven't fired you have they? Demoted you? Harassed you? And maybe you haven't been promoted because you don't demonstrate all the qualities management likes to see in employees in upper levels, up to and including getting along with others. Maybe that means you're good at your current job and wouldn't be a good fit in a higher level which may involve more interaction with others.

 

You don't understand that there are social ramifications for everything even if they stop short of murder and harm? And like I said, you've judged certain values as ridiculous, but maybe no one else does. What if a manager doesn't want you on their team because they don't think you'd be a good fit? Is that wrong?

 

As for rudeness, unfortunately, you can't force anyone to not be rude to you. You can stand up for yourself, and you can try to shame them, and you can refuse to allow it to stop you from leaving the house.

 

You want a world that is kind, non-judgmental, fair, and wonderful for everyone. All of human history should tell you that it's impossible.

 

I may judge them inside my head, but I make no comments, I give no outside behavior of my opinion. I only start getting annoyed when my own views aren't respected and are impeached on for the sake of.... what?

 

More bizarrely, the position I could be promoted to has LESS social interactions, not more. It's more technical (and they all really hate our team's "cheering" because it breaks their concentration.) If I could consider any of coworkers "friends," almost all of them are on that team because they have similar attitudes and personalities. So it makes absolutely no sense to advance a socially-gifted, technology-challenged person to a position within a socially-restrained, technology-intense team. THIS is why I get so frustrated and annoyed with "social power"; because it makes no practical sense. (Like, assuming a pretty person is nicer than an ugly person.)

 

But oh well, if things haven't changed and there's nothing we can do, then we should just stop trying to improve anything ever right?

[Els]

I actually agree that there is plenty 'wrong' or 'unfair' with society in general, and the way some people do things, V. There is great good in humankind.. and also great crappiness. You're right that it's 'unfair' for a hot girl with lesser skills to be promoted over you - my observation has been that most job promotions ARE unfair, and people are chosen based on social interactions and human nature far more than their actual skills and dedication, unless they are extremely, unbelievably good. You're right that it's ridiculous to require someone to suck up, or be social, or engage in cheers, to be promoted for a purely technical job.

 

But 'anger' and 'bitterness' has never succeeded in changing society for the better in all of history, and I doubt it'll start now. I think there is nothing wrong with striving to affect positive change (though I doubt how successful you'll be, but there is still no harm in trying), but if you're going about it with 'anger', you've already lost the battle. None of the great social reformers have affected positive change through anger. If Martin Luther King had approached social equality and racial harmony with the approach you had taken in most of your posts, you can be almost certain that he would have lost his cause. And had a crappy, unfulfilling life to boot.

 

You really only have 3 productive options to deal with this:

 

1) Strive to affect change in a productive manner, through engaging in peaceful activism and persuading people through rationale and leading by example

2) Learn to work around it, ie do what the job wants you to if you want a promotion, or seek out other options such as self-employment or contract-based work

3) Don't give a feck about society, carry on as you are and be proud of yourself, despite knowing that there will be people who will try to shame or disadvantage yourself for it

 

All of the above, or a combination (which is what I personally try to strive for, as a balance) of the above can lead to positive results, in society and in your life. Anger and bitterness accomplishes nothing save destroying your own life.

[Pirouette]

I may judge them inside my head, but I make no comments, I give no outside behavior of my opinion. I only start getting annoyed when my own views aren't respected and are impeached on for the sake of.... what?

 

This is human nature. You don't refrain from judgments and neither do they. The difference is that they have power over you and can easily exercise it. I don't know what kind of social programs you can implement that can counter-condition the human desire for power. Even you have sneered at the everyone counts and gold stars for effort campaigns.

 

More bizarrely, the position I could be promoted to has LESS social interactions, not more.

 

Alright, have you lobbied for this position? Spoke to your manager about how it'd be a great fit for you and the company?

 

But oh well, if things haven't changed and there's nothing we can do, then we should just stop trying to improve anything ever right?

 

Have you ignored every other sentence I've written about fighting for the things you want to see change, but you know, actually thinking them through and having arguments and plans behind them. And if you want to change values you're going to have to adopt them first, and start valuing yourself for them.

 

Do you expect change to happen over night? People alive still remember women gaining the right to vote.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Societal change NEVER begins with "everybody else MUST change so that I can remain exactly as I am."

[threebyfate]

Also I get the impression people on this forum no longer wish to help, or even really care.... they just want me to shut the hell up.

You're an imperfect being expecting perfection from society and everyone else. How realistic and balanced is your perception?

[verhrzn]

You're an imperfect being expecting perfection from society and everyone else. How realistic and balanced is your perception?

 

How the hell am I expecting perfection??

[oaks]

Do you agree with the article: that the answer for ugly girls is not self-esteem but righteous anger, anger to fight back and change a society that places so much value on physical appearance?

 

Haven't read the article, but if your summary is that ugly girls should get angry then I disagree because anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Mostly for the selfish reason that I don't especially want to see a bunch of angry ugly girls trying to change the world.

 

If, on the other hand, these ugly girls get motivated to change society such that they become less ugly (due to a shift in societal norms), then that sounds great and I'm all for it. Only partly for the selfish reason that I don't especially want to see a bunch of ugly girls.

 

So, can the ugly girls do it without the anger? It's not pretty.