Self-Esteem Vs. Righteous Anger

[verhrzn]

If you're a regular on the board (and go anywhere near my posts), you'll recall that I get labeled as having low self-esteem a lot. According to the majority opinion, what I really need to do is have "better self-esteem" and more confidence.

 

The thing is, I've never understood WHY I should feel better about myself in a culture where I KNOW I'm not valued. To quote the following article, it is not that I don't know my value.... it's that I know it all too well.

 

By trying to train myself to have better "self-esteem", aren't I implicitly allowing society to not change? Instead of changing perceptions of beauty and worth, I am instead changing myself? Aren't I just sticking my fingers in my ears and going "Lalala can't hear you"?

 

Do you agree with the article: that the answer for ugly girls is not self-esteem but righteous anger, anger to fight back and change a society that places so much value on physical appearance?

 

-http://www.thenation.com/blog/169208/upside-ugly

[Els]

Self esteem is not about the worth that society places on you (which changes drastically according to individual members of society, locale, culture, era, etc), but about the worth you place on yourself. That is why it is called 'self' esteem.

[pteromom]

The thing is, I've never understood WHY I should feel better about myself in a culture where I KNOW I'm not valued. To quote the following article, it is not that I don't know my value.... it's that I know it all too well.

 

I don't understand why your value would come from what OTHER people think about you. Even if it is true, and you are generally invisible or unattractive to a majority of people, who cares? That doesn't mean you just slink through life angry because nobody likes you.

 

It's up to YOU to be who you want to be. It's up to YOU to spend your life doing what you want to do. And it is up to OTHERS whether to accept you as you are or not, but your feelings about yourself shouldn't change based on what THEY think.

 

Going through life angry is a wasted life, whether it is "righteous" or not. Life is short - make it joyful.

[verhrzn]

Self esteem is not about the worth that society places on you (which changes drastically according to individual members of society, locale, culture, era, etc), but about the worth you place on yourself. That is why it is called 'self' esteem.

 

Except why should you have 'self'-esteem? Why should you value yourself if you have no value? Why should you smile at yourself in the mirror while the rest of society tarnishes you? It seems like 'self-esteem' is really just a shield, a BS way to fake reality to yourself.... "Oh I have value and I'm worthy of love," even if you're not in society.

 

I'm using an exaggerated question for emphasis, but... if Hitler referenced to himself as an evil, worthless person, would you say he has low self-esteem or is just telling the truth?

[pteromom]

Self esteem is not about the worth that society places on you (which changes drastically according to individual members of society, locale, culture, era, etc), but about the worth you place on yourself. That is why it is called 'self' esteem.

 

High-five. Great minds think alike.

[verhrzn]

I don't understand why your value would come from what OTHER people think about you. Even if it is true, and you are generally invisible or unattractive to a majority of people, who cares? That doesn't mean you just slink through life angry because nobody likes you.

 

It's up to YOU to be who you want to be. It's up to YOU to spend your life doing what you want to do. And it is up to OTHERS whether to accept you as you are or not, but your feelings about yourself shouldn't change based on what THEY think.

 

Going through life angry is a wasted life, whether it is "righteous" or not. Life is short - make it joyful.

 

Because I don't live in a bubble. Because I have to live among others. I don't have an option of cutting myself off from other people (I have yet to figure out how to be a profitable hermit), thus I must exist in society.

 

My value comes from other people because I live among other people. Other people give me a job, give me friendship, give me a romantic relationship. If other people don't value me, I cease to have those things. It's all new-agey-awesome to say that my value comes entirely from me, but even only I think it, what good is that? If only I value myself, when no one else does, it doesn't give me anything... a job, money to live on, social interactions.

 

Humans are social creatures. As much as we all want to be independent islands and fortresses, we still depend on others for things, including our sense of self and self-worth. Are you telling me that if you had no friends, no one would hire you, men ignored you, children wanted nothing to do with you, etc.... you'd still be happy JUST because you have "self-esteem"?

[Els]

Except why should you have 'self'-esteem? Why should you value yourself if you have no value? Why should you smile at yourself in the mirror while the rest of society tarnishes you? It seems like 'self-esteem' is really just a shield, a BS way to fake reality to yourself.... "Oh I have value and I'm worthy of love," even if you're not in society.

 

I'm using an exaggerated question for emphasis, but... if Hitler referenced to himself as an evil, worthless person, would you say he has low self-esteem or is just telling the truth?

 

As I said, society is not one amorphous blob of similar-minded drones who all think alike and all prioritize the same things. What one member of society loves you for, another member might scorn you for. Some things, such as murdering, lashing out at people who are trying to help you, or constantly putting yourself down, are mostly accepted as 'bad' - and those are all changeable.

 

Other things, such as appearance, are more subjective. Looking at a bald woman, one person might think, "Ew, what an ugly woman", but someone who knows her might think, "Such a strong young woman to battle cancer at such an age." Who is 'right'? What would matter most in that case would be what the woman thinks about herself, I'm sure you would agree.

 

High-five. Great minds think alike.

[verhrzn]

As I said, society is not one amorphous blob of similar-minded drones who all think alike and all prioritize the same things. What one member of society loves you for, another member might scorn you for. Some things, such as murdering, lashing out at people who are trying to help you, or constantly putting yourself down, are mostly accepted as 'bad' - and those are all changeable.

 

Other things, such as appearance, are more subjective. Looking at a bald woman, one person might think, "Ew, what an ugly woman", but someone who knows her might think, "Such a strong young woman to battle cancer at such an age." Who is 'right'? What would matter most in that case would be what the woman thinks about herself, I'm sure you would agree.

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but society kind of IS a hive mind. That's why it's society. We don't ALL think alike, but there are some pretty strong common ideas and values and objectives. We humans are not as independent as we'd love to pretend to be.

 

Except the point of the article is why do WE have to change? Why do ugly girls have to smile and put up with it? Why do I have to change myself and my personality in order to be less angry/bitter/sad about my looks? Why is the onus on me and not society, to change?

 

Maybe because society has spent years beating down ugly girls, and then getting mad at them when they put themselves down. It's like when my friends berate me for being annoying, and then tell me to have better self-esteem. How crazy is that, how destructive the attitude to have self-esteem and "smile" in the face of harmful treatment?

[Els]

Are you telling me that if you had no friends, no one would hire you, men ignored you, children wanted nothing to do with you, etc.... you'd still be happy JUST because you have "self-esteem"?

 

No, I would tell you to figure out why that is the case, because even deformed people and obese people can have some of the above if they are kind, genuine, and positive. Ironically, the reason juuuuust might possibly be... your low self-esteem. Because nobody enjoys being around someone who is constantly putting herself down and only seeing the grey lining of the silver clouds. We aren't robots, your emotions influence others, and it's exhausting to be around someone who constantly gives you negative vibes.

[Els]

Hate to burst your bubble, but society kind of IS a hive mind. That's why it's society. We don't ALL think alike, but there are some pretty strong common ideas and values and objectives. We humans are not as independent as we'd love to pretend to be.

 

Except the point of the article is why do WE have to change? Why do ugly girls have to smile and put up with it? Why do I have to change myself and my personality in order to be less angry/bitter/sad about my looks? Why is the onus on me and not society, to change?

 

Maybe because society has spent years beating down ugly girls, and then getting mad at them when they put themselves down. It's like when my friends berate me for being annoying, and then tell me to have better self-esteem. How crazy is that, how destructive the attitude to have self-esteem and "smile" in the face of harmful treatment?

 

It's really up to you what you do. But if you go that route, don't kid yourself that the reason people dislike you is because you're 'ugly' (you're not, but I can't be bothered to continue arguing about that with you). The reason people dislike you in that case will be because you're angry and bitter.

[verhrzn]

It's really up to you what you do. But if you go that route, don't kid yourself that the reason people dislike you is because you're 'ugly' (you're not, but I can't be bothered to continue arguing about that with you). The reason people dislike you in that case will be because you're angry and bitter.

 

And why shouldn't ugly girls be angry and bitter? Why is the onus on them to change, even though society gave them that complex?

[pteromom]

Other people give me a job

 

No - you EARN a job through building skills and experience and education.

 

give me friendship

 

No, friendship is reciprocal. You find someone you connect with, and you both choose to spend time and energy on each other. It isn't something another person GIVES out of charity.

 

give me a romantic relationship.

 

No. Again, it's reciprocal. Even if 98% of men would find you unappealing, it becomes about finding ways to get seen by that other 2%. And then you may find someone to GIVE a romantic relationship to.

 

It's all new-agey-awesome to say that my value comes entirely from me, but even only I think it, what good is that? If only I value myself, when no one else does, it doesn't give me anything... a job, money to live on, social interactions.

 

What good is that???? Living authentically changes EVERYTHING. Trust me. I am of average looks. 44 years old. Some people like me. Others think I am overbearing or annoying. But I LOVE myself. I get a lot of happiness out of dancing through life being who I truly am. It's not about what others think at all.

 

And jobs and friends and romantic partners are always out there. It's about finding the ones that fit with you. I learned years ago I don't do well in jobs where I have to clock in at a certain time like a good little soldier. And I don't do well in jobs where I am micro-managed. Or where my creativity is confined. So - I focus on jobs that fit with ME, rather than sitting around wishing someone would come GIVE one to me. I go out and make my life what I want it to be.

 

As much as we all want to be independent islands and fortresses, we still depend on others for things, including our sense of self and self-worth. Are you telling me that if you had no friends, no one would hire you, men ignored you, children wanted nothing to do with you, etc.... you'd still be happy JUST because you have "self-esteem"?

 

I disagree with your basic premise. If I had no friends, nobody would hire me, my child hated me, etc., that would mean I was NOT being myself.

 

Sharing love and friendship and experiences with others is a big part of being human. But you still choose who you want to share that stuff with. It isn't about THEM choosing YOU. You have choice too.

 

I wouldn't be happy with nobody loving me, so I create my life in a way where that would NEVER HAPPEN. I have great friends and a wonderful child, and good co-workers and I put myself into building those relationships and making them the best they can be.

 

I talk and laugh with strangers in grocery stores. I tell ladies on the street that I love their shoes or hair or dress, or that their children are adorable. I smile and sing and feel light and happy. Because THAT is how I WANT to live my life. I do not rely on others to make that happen for me.

[Els]

V, do you know how much you're sounding like the woah-is-me male Bitter Brigade here? Why shouldn't they be angry and bitter towards women when 'women' have been rejecting them all their lives? Why is the onus on them to change, even though 'women' gave them that complex? They have every right to be mean, nasty, and cruel to you because you are one of those 'women' that have tormented them so all their lives, right?

[pteromom]

Hate to burst your bubble, but society kind of IS a hive mind. That's why it's society. We don't ALL think alike, but there are some pretty strong common ideas and values and objectives.

 

And so? Most people would say a 44 year old woman who isn't in the greatest shape isn't attractive. And I'd say "F*ck them. I'm awesome." And who is RIGHT? Neither. Both. Doesn't matter. My feelings about myself has nothing to do with what society thinks of me.

[pteromom]

It's like when my friends berate me for being annoying, and then tell me to have better self-esteem.

 

You need to surround yourself with different "friends" if they are berating you.

[pteromom]

And why shouldn't ugly girls be angry and bitter? Why is the onus on them to change, even though society gave them that complex?

 

Because you only have ONE LIFE. And it is up to YOU how you walk through it. You really want to let other people have so much control over you that you would waste your life being angry?

 

It is up to you to accept the "complex" as a part of who you are, or to reject it and laugh in the face of anyone who would tell you that you are not enough as you are.

 

It honestly makes me sad that you can't see your own worth. Physically, there is nothing at all wrong with you - you look beautiful. I don't think your issue is necessarily low self-esteem either. I think it is something deeper - a warped perspective about what it means to be human and a woman. It makes me wish I could just sit down with you for three or four hours and talk it away (assuming you don't have something else going on like depression or a mood disorder which can really f-ck with your emotions.)

[todreaminblue]

If you're a regular on the board (and go anywhere near my posts), you'll recall that I get labeled as having low self-esteem a lot. According to the majority opinion, what I really need to do is have "better self-esteem" and more confidence.

 

The thing is, I've never understood WHY I should feel better about myself in a culture where I KNOW I'm not valued. To quote the following article, it is not that I don't know my value.... it's that I know it all too well.

 

By trying to train myself to have better "self-esteem", aren't I implicitly allowing society to not change? Instead of changing perceptions of beauty and worth, I am instead changing myself? Aren't I just sticking my fingers in my ears and going "Lalala can't hear you"?

 

Do you agree with the article: that the answer for ugly girls is not self-esteem but righteous anger, anger to fight back and change a society that places so much value on physical appearance?

 

-http://www.thenation.com/blog/169208/upside-ugly

 

 

sefl esteem is holding your head up when people call you ugly or worthless.....whether you feel secure or not...you stand up and be counted......self esteem isnt righteousness....esteem comes from how you hold yourself in the face of adversity.....you dont need self esteem if people arent being adverse to you or you dont have to fight for something you need humility ...you need it more when you have to face adversity....and then you look them square in the eye and say give me your best shot......and when you feel that knock....look up and ask god for the strength to take the hit.and still be looking that adversity straight in the eye...that to me is self esteem......deb

[Pirouette]

I think the article made good points about not accepting certain standards of beauty and fighting for change.

 

Where she muddles it up is conflating self-esteem with thinking you're physically beautiful and seeking to be physically beautiful by any means necessary.

 

By the end of the article, sounds like she found self-esteem through humour, her writing ability, and fighting for the things she believes in.

[sooniechan]

I agree with the article. I was never the pretty one in school. I was picked on and bullied for being awkward looking, weird, ugly. Telling people to just love themselves isn't the only part of the solution. I don't think it really works like that. You can love yourself all day and night, but in society it isn't really going to work. Now, that's not to say it doesn't help, but it isn't going to magically solve all your problems. Society needs to change as well.

[amaysngrace]

It's so much easier to blame other people for your troubles than to see how you contribute to them.

 

If you are prone to taking the easy way by avoiding responsibility then its obvious on why you have nothing to be proud of. That keeps you in your low self-esteem trap.

 

If you want to break free then you need to do things differently. If you will not do things differently then stop blaming others. The fault is your own.

[verhrzn]

V, do you know how much you're sounding like the woah-is-me male Bitter Brigade here? Why shouldn't they be angry and bitter towards women when 'women' have been rejecting them all their lives? Why is the onus on them to change, even though 'women' gave them that complex? They have every right to be mean, nasty, and cruel to you because you are one of those 'women' that have tormented them so all their lives, right?

 

Except I am not being angry or bitter towards people. I am angry and bitter towards society, toward certain attitudes and assumptions. Everyone has these attitudes and assumptions, including me.

 

It's no good comparing me to the Bitter Brigade because evidence does NOT support what they claim about women. But study after study HAS demonstrated that humans have a visual bias, that society has narrow standards of beauty, etc.

 

Women have feminism, minorities have civil rights... nobody told black people that they should have "better self esteem" when they felt abused and put down by social standards. Why shouldn't ugly women get the same chance?

[pteromom]

I agree with the article. I was never the pretty one in school. I was picked on and bullied for being awkward looking, weird, ugly. Telling people to just love themselves isn't the only part of the solution. I don't think it really works like that. You can love yourself all day and night, but in society it isn't really going to work. Now, that's not to say it doesn't help, but it isn't going to magically solve all your problems. Society needs to change as well.

 

Hahah. I disagree 100% with you. No, having self-esteem doesn't magically solve problems. But it does give you the strength to go out and make things happen for yourself. You still have to put the work in.

 

With jobs, you still have to write a killer resume, do a lot of searching and networking, and go out and apply for jobs. (Self-esteem comes in handy here, because you don't say "I'm not qualified so I will let this opportunity pass me by.")

 

With dating, you still have to cast out a net and search for a suitable partner. You still have to deal with rejection and bad matches and rude comments. But if you have self-esteem, you realize that if someone rejects you or is rude, it says more about them than it does you, and you walk away THANKFUL that you didn't end up in a relationship with that person.

 

Having self-esteem doesn't mean that you will suddenly be held up as an ideal on the cover of a magazine. It means that you are able to find your own worth and value even if you could never be on the cover of a magazine.

 

It also means that even if society never changes, you will be ok, because you accept yourself as you are. If you sit around waiting to be accepted by everyone else, you are in for a long and lonely life. You gotta get out there and make your life what you want it to be.

[pteromom]

Women have feminism, minorities have civil rights... nobody told black people that they should have "better self esteem" when they felt abused and put down by social standards.

 

No, but THANK GOD there were those willing to stand up and say "this isn't good enough. I demand more for myself and my people!"

 

And that's what each of us has to do for ourselves.

[verhrzn]

It's so much easier to blame other people for your troubles than to see how you contribute to them.

 

If you are prone to taking the easy way by avoiding responsibility then its obvious on why you have nothing to be proud of. That keeps you in your low self-esteem trap.

 

If you want to break free then you need to do things differently. If you will not do things differently then stop blaming others. The fault is your own.

 

Please clarify how I am avoiding responsibility or how I should do things differently. I should be happy that guys find me repulsive? I should love myself even though there is nothing lovable about me?

 

It's all well and good to say "find different friends" or "date different guys." But you go through enough of your life running into the same issues and situations over and over again, eventually you start realizing YOU are the problem. I am the problem, because I am sick of being told I am ugly by everyone around me, and then being told that I should stop bothering with my "feelings" about it.

[Pirouette]

Please clarify how I am avoiding responsibility or how I should do things differently. I should be happy that guys find me repulsive? I should love myself even though there is nothing lovable about me?

 

It's all well and good to say "find different friends" or "date different guys." But you go through enough of your life running into the same issues and situations over and over again, eventually you start realizing YOU are the problem. I am the problem, because I am sick of being told I am ugly by everyone around me, and then being told that I should stop bothering with my "feelings" about it.

 

But you're not ugly. You may not be classically beautiful, but you're not ugly.

 

And even if you were, are you saying that those who are ugly have no worth?

 

Who has actually told you to your face, in those words, that you are ugly? And you understand that people use those insults against others because they are particularly hurtful, not because they are necessarily true?