Dating Someone Out of Your League?

[january2011]

Well, good thing I never could get anyone better, since I think he is already clearly out of my league! The reasons he gives for considering me out of his league are ridiculously vague like, um, I read a lot! And I make him feel things! He has absolutely no concrete evidence to back up his assertions, they're just an impression he feels.

 

I entered it cause I didn't know it'd be this way, but once he started talking more about the future and his own plans I realized how much I DON'T fit in.

 

So, how do you deal with that?

 

Verhrzn, how are his answers any less logical and any more ridiculous than the ones you've given to us in this thread?

 

You both seem to be parsing 2+2 and coming up with 3.

 

Neither of you have concrete evidence to back up your assertions that the other person is out of your league.

 

As to how you deal and what you do:

 

Consider that there are alternative explanations for events and other people's behaviour. Your interpretation is not necessarily the right one, especially if your interpretation always involves catastrophising and thinking that the world is heavily weighted against all positive outcomes so that all negatives outcomes will come to pass.

 

More specifically, if you do believe that he is out of your league, you smile to yourself, count yourself lucky that you've found each other and that he loves you even though you have flaws. And you also tell yourself that he might be better at X, but you are better at Y, so that makes you equal.

[babybear]

Hi,

 

I haven't read thru all of your thread - but I absolutely don't believe in leagues! I myself am a young female in my 30's, a physician, and was completely smitten with this guy who always used to say 'wow, but ur a doctor!' I would always say to him, you are so good at what you do, I am good at what I do - nobody's better or worse...we are just different...and I love that we are.

 

He doesn't really text me anymore (but that's another thread!) Point is, you are in his "league" if you believe you are. Stay confident! I'm sure you are fabulous.

[xxoo]

Because there is no guarantee he's a good man, but more importantly, being a good man doesn't prevent a man from trading up.

 

This is correct. There are no guarantees in life. With experience, we learn to judge character, and a good relationship from a bad one, but there is always a risk involved. That is the nature of life.

 

It is natural for humans to want the best things. If he left one job for a better one, would we condemn him as a bad man? No, so why is he a bad man if he could get someone equally compatible, but more his equal? Why wouldn't you assume this would happen?

 

Because the 'better' woman is the one he loves.

 

If your partners have "traded up" in the past, they probably didn't love you.

 

Do you trust your ability to recognize love when you experience it, and the love a man has for you?

[kiss_andmakeup]

verhrzn, I felt the same way at the start of my current relationship. Speaking in the terms you've listed, my boyfriend is out of my league, too. He's very successful, intelligent, funny, charismatic, and attractive to boot. I'm a low-earning part-time hairstylist and part-time student. I felt incredibly inadequate.

 

Here's the best way to think about it: are you with him simply because of his education and his career goals? I'm guessing not. You are probably with him because you like his personality, you're attracted to him, you have chemistry and similar interests, and the two of you mesh well.

 

So why would he quantify his interest in you based on your education and career goals (or lack thereof)? Clearly those aren't the reasons he's dating you.

 

I'd say give it time, because over time my insecurities regarding my relationship have all but vanished as I've realized the real reasons my boyfriend and I are with each other. And they have nothing to do with our careers, how much money we make, or how much education we have. We simply make each other happy, and have so much that we love to do together.

 

Unfortunately you're in a tight spot because of your guy's impending move. I'd say that does make it more difficult. But honestly, I'm not sure if I'd move halfway across the country with a guy I've only known for a few months, regardless of our chemistry. That's a whole separate issue, and I can definitely understand your struggle there.

[SoleMate]

Although I do think it is important to understand if someone is "in your league", I would urge a broader definition of factors. Lovers don't typically choose each other based on college major, GPA, and career prospects alone, unless they are horribly shallow. A man isn't typically looking for the highest ranking woman in a business/economic sense, he wants a woman who is attractive (face and body), kind and caring, adoring/flattering, good at creating a loving and comfortable home, a willing companion in recreation, and eager for lots of sex with him (and totally uninterested in sex with anyone else). I'm guessing you actually rank pretty high on many of these metrics in which case you have nothing to worry about.

 

Also, I'm sure your bf is a charming individual, but someone living with his parents heading for a counselling career is not every woman's idea of the hottest catch around. So if you're going to be doing a cold, hard calculus of relationship worth, please try to be objective about pros and cons for both of you.

[Mme. Chaucer]

v - I'm sure you've noticed, but this thread is identical to the ones you've posted throughout your career here at LoveShack. It's a downward spiral that leads you nowhere but … down the drain.

 

Why not stop it now?

[TheBigQuestion]

Although I do think it is important to understand if someone is "in your league", I would urge a broader definition of factors. Lovers don't typically choose each other based on college major, GPA, and career prospects alone, unless they are horribly shallow. A man isn't typically looking for the highest ranking woman in a business/economic sense, he wants a woman who is attractive (face and body), kind and caring, adoring/flattering, good at creating a loving and comfortable home, a willing companion in recreation, and eager for lots of sex with him (and totally uninterested in sex with anyone else). I'm guessing you actually rank pretty high on many of these metrics in which case you have nothing to worry about.

 

Also, I'm sure your bf is a charming individual, but someone living with his parents heading for a counselling career is not every woman's idea of the hottest catch around. So if you're going to be doing a cold, hard calculus of relationship worth, please try to be objective about pros and cons for both of you.

 

I especially agree with what you said about career prospects. I read through some of this thread earlier and, although I don't remember the exact field V's boyfriend is studying, all the ones discussed (anthropology, history, counseling) are simply not the ones that lead to having high status or high income. The truth is, unless this guy is in one of the Top 15 Ph.D. programs in his respective field, chances are he will NEVER find a tenure-track position upon completing the degree. Tenure track positions in the humanities and social sciences are virtually nonexistent. Most Ph.D's in those fields end up part-time lecturing at multiple schools with little job security and few benefits, typically make less per year than a public school teacher, and as a result of not having a permanent tenure-track affiliation, never engage in any of the sophisticated research that V claims is totally out of her element. V emphasizing the apparently enormous gap between their possible success and prestige levels is simply self-sabotage. She conceivably could be in a better spot "slinging burgers" along those parameters than her boyfriend.

[verhrzn]

Although I do think it is important to understand if someone is "in your league", I would urge a broader definition of factors. Lovers don't typically choose each other based on college major, GPA, and career prospects alone, unless they are horribly shallow. A man isn't typically looking for the highest ranking woman in a business/economic sense, he wants a woman who is attractive (face and body), kind and caring, adoring/flattering, good at creating a loving and comfortable home, a willing companion in recreation, and eager for lots of sex with him (and totally uninterested in sex with anyone else). I'm guessing you actually rank pretty high on many of these metrics in which case you have nothing to worry about.

 

Well that's extra unfortunate, since I am not many of those. The only thing I have is that I am uninterested in sex with other people. But I'm not attractive in face or body, or kind, or adoring, or maternal, or good at creating a comfortable home (my apartment could easily be mistaken for a college bachelor's) or really that much of a willing companion in recreation (I enjoy doing my own thing.)

 

I am, in other words, more of a man than a woman. Thus why I am concerned about college, education, career prospects... because the type of guy who would be into me will probably err more on the feminine side, and thus care about those things.

 

v - I'm sure you've noticed, but this thread is identical to the ones you've posted throughout your career here at LoveShack. It's a downward spiral that leads you nowhere but … down the drain.

 

Why not stop it now?

 

Maybe they're identical because people just refuse to face reality, like all my other threads. It'd just be SO much easier if posters just, ya know, accepted my life is how it is instead of trying to coat it in rainbows.

Edited September 6, 2012 by verhrzn

[Els]

V, I want to second this statement by xxoo: Because the 'better' woman is the one he loves. If your partners have "traded up" in the past, they probably didn't love you.

 

I don't think anyone here can give you the guarantee that this guy WON'T 'trade you up'. Because we can't guarantee you that he truly loves you. That is an assessment that you, and only you, can make. But what is the purpose of you preempting this 'trade-up' with such dread? How does putting yourself through this self-esteem grinder help you, at all? If he doesn't love you, you'll find it out with time, and jumping the seat sooner with the paranoia borne of previous experiences isn't really going to help much. And if he DOES love you, all you are going to accomplish by persisting with this, is to push him away and fulfill your own prophecy.

 

This man isn't your other exes, V. Give him and yourself a real chance.

 

 

Unfortunately you're in a tight spot because of your guy's impending move. I'd say that does make it more difficult. But honestly, I'm not sure if I'd move halfway across the country with a guy I've only known for a few months, regardless of our chemistry. That's a whole separate issue, and I can definitely understand your struggle there.

 

I think V said that she had been with this guy for a few years in the past, and their youth/inexperience and the long distance that they were facing at the time drove them apart. So it isn't really someone she's only known for a few months.

 

That being said, I personally, honestly don't think that V giving up her career to move around with this guy is the best decision for V. Even if her bf and others don't quantify her based on her accomplishments, SHE does. So I really don't think taking a dive in her career to be with this guy is in her best interests, especially considering that her self-esteem isn't in the best place right now.

 

A man isn't typically looking for the highest ranking woman in a business/economic sense, he wants a woman who is attractive (face and body), kind and caring, adoring/flattering, good at creating a loving and comfortable home, a willing companion in recreation, and eager for lots of sex with him (and totally uninterested in sex with anyone else).

 

And here I must chime in to say that men are all different, and not all of them want the things that you mentioned... because, having read V's history, I have a feeling she'll say that she doesn't want to do the 'adoring and flattering' bit and doesn't think she is 'attractive in face and body'. But the whole point is that she satisfies what THIS guy in particular wants, and that is all that matters. (Edit: Oh, snap, I finished typing a few minutes too late, it seems. )

[ThaWholigan]

Maybe they're identical because people just refuse to face reality, like all my other threads. It'd just be SO much easier if posters just, ya know, accepted my life is how it is instead of trying to coat it in rainbows.

 

That would be negligible of us in my opinion, to side with your own self-abuse.

 

Perhaps it would be so much easier if us posters just, ya know, stopped posting in your threads .

[Lonely Ronin]

Maybe they're identical because people just refuse to face reality, like all my other threads. It'd just be SO much easier if posters just, ya know, accepted my life is how it is instead of trying to coat it in rainbows.

 

Why do you care, do you want pity or something?

[Ami1uwant]

What you are doing is the self fulfilling prophecy of thinking you are unattractive, not successful, who doesnt want me.

 

A lot of it has to do with your personality. You said you went to some nerd thing and no luck. The problem is if you didnt come off as friendly and welcoming but a wall placed in front of you turns people off.

 

It is reasonable that you and him have different goals/desires et all with him wanting to move around while you dont. That is valid grounds to end it over because long term you dont have hope so why waste your time.

 

 

You have had success getting dates and bfs which means there is some attractive quality about you.

 

In terms of career options you have...you can go into teaching. What sort of job interests you?

 

What exactly happened in the end of your past relationships?

[Lonely Ronin]

V, I would bet my next paycheck this is what you have. I'm not trying to pick on you, but your view on life is to skewed and you should seek some help.

Major depressive disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[verhrzn]

Why do you care, do you want pity or something?

 

I've wanted what I've always wanted.... actual advice.

 

When I first came here, I kept asking the same question over and over: "How do you date as an ugly woman?" And without fail, the answers were "You're not ugly!", even from posters who had no idea what I looked like. People are SO terrified of facing unpleasant truths... that dating for women is still largely about looks, that our society connects value of a person with their outward appearance 9 times out of 10, etc... that people immediately label it "self-esteem problems" and try to eradicate it.

 

But there ARE ugly people in the world. There are stupid, unkind, mean, people, there are people with all sorts of unpleasant truths about them. Instead of denying the reality, I'd just like advice on the ACTUAL reality... "How to date as an ugly woman." I can't say WHAT that advice would look like, because if I already knew it, I wouldn't be asking for it.

 

This entire thread has descended down into whether or not "leagues" exist. It has no addressed my actual question. "Yes, leagues exist. Yes, I am dating someone outside mine. Now what?" Posters seem determined to argue with my view of reality, instead of addressing the actual question.

[denise_xo]

V, you have received tons of advice in all your threads. But for some reason, there isn't any of it that you'd like to take on.

 

Regarding leagues, you have to expect that people question the premise around a question raised in an OP. That's entirely normal and happens here (and IRL) all the time.

[verhrzn]

What you are doing is the self fulfilling prophecy of thinking you are unattractive, not successful, who doesnt want me.

 

A lot of it has to do with your personality. You said you went to some nerd thing and no luck. The problem is if you didnt come off as friendly and welcoming but a wall placed in front of you turns people off.

 

It is reasonable that you and him have different goals/desires et all with him wanting to move around while you dont. That is valid grounds to end it over because long term you dont have hope so why waste your time.

 

You have had success getting dates and bfs which means there is some attractive quality about you.

 

In terms of career options you have...you can go into teaching. What sort of job interests you?

 

What exactly happened in the end of your past relationships?

 

Except I wasn't walled-off. I have extremely blunt friends who tell me off, frequently and often, when I am being annoying/depressing/whatever, and they said I came across fine at the nerd event. Yet still.... no attention.

 

I've had "success" if you praise success as "the guy used me for sex and emotional support." The ONLY reason I've had bfs is because I pursued them, because I did all the heavy lifting, because I constantly complimented them and lifted up their ego... and then they dumped me for better girls.

 

I don't know why people keep suggesting teaching. Has anyone looked at the teaching opportunities in the US? Absolutely abysmal.

[ThaWholigan]

You want to know how to date as an "ugly woman"?

 

Don't be miserable and self-sabotaging. There.

[january2011]

V, I addressed your question, but you ignored it.

[verhrzn]

V, you have received tons of advice in all your threads. But for some reason, there isn't any of it that you'd like to take on.

 

Regarding leagues, you have to expect that people question the premise around a question raised in an OP. That's entirely normal and happens here (and IRL) all the time.

 

Except some of the very same people who are questioning the existence of leagues are the same posters who have supported the idea of leagues in other places. So, what, do they just enjoy arguing with me??

 

And yeah, I've gotten "advice." But it's been the same unrealistic advice that ignores my experiences, all rainbows and fluffy esteem. "Oh V you ARE attractive... even though you absolutely never get hit on, guys have dumped you for being ugly, and there is no real world evidence at all that you are. But I say you are, because everyone is!" Is advice really helpful if it doesn't address the reality of a situation?

 

You want to know how to date as an "ugly woman"?

 

Don't be miserable and self-sabotaging. There.

 

Yeeeeeah, that doesn't work, because I spent most of my life not being miserable, and still got no attention. However, I did spend my entire life being ugly, so...

[denise_xo]

Except some of the very same people who are questioning the existence of leagues are the same posters who have supported the idea of leagues in other places. So, what, do they just enjoy arguing with me??

 

And yeah, I've gotten "advice." But it's been the same unrealistic advice that ignores my experiences, all rainbows and fluffy esteem. "Oh V you ARE attractive... even though you absolutely never get hit on, guys have dumped you for being ugly, and there is no real world evidence at all that you are. But I say you are, because everyone is!" Is advice really helpful if it doesn't address the reality of a situation?

 

When I read your threads, I see a lot of constructive advice. But if you consistently don't find any of the hundreds of posts in your threads helpful or realistic, then perhaps you should a) just post in the rants and confessions section and b) consider an alternative board for 'real' advice.

[denise_xo]

V, I addressed your question, but you ignored it.

 

Ditto. V, I see you more concerned with getting into cat fights than to actually openly explore the issue in your OP. Perhaps that's partially why you're not getting much out of your threads.

[LittleTiger]

I am trying something that was suggested. Tiger suggested I just ride it out until he dumps me, which is what I'm doing.

 

I did want advice.... but I am very very sick of the whole Rainbows-and-Unicorns advice I always seem to get, like how there aren't leagues, or how guys obviously don't really care about looks, silly, it's all about love. It's fluffy advice with no basis in logic. Heck, it's not even logical when glancing through the other threads in this forum, where people are routinely told to "lower their standards" if they can't get any dates, and how men go on and on about women's looks. Would it be so wrong for posters to just be realistic once in a while?

 

I suggested nothing of the sort - and I clarified what I said with a second post when you questioned me:

 

NO!

 

What I said was, get your self esteem out of the toilet or you are going to push away every man who shows an interest in you!

 

You want realistic and logical? Here is realistic and logical for you.

 

There is no point in 'riding it out until he dumps you'. Unless you can just enjoy the ride, you are wasting both your time and his. From everything you have said in this thread, you are clearly not enjoying the relationship because you are feeling insecure and not good enough for him all the time - that doesn't sound like a lot of fun.....and relationships are supposed to be fun!

 

If he dumps you which (according to your calculations, not mine) he definitely will do at some point, it will be because you have finally convinced him that he can do much better - and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Then we would see you back here proclaiming how you were right all along!

 

Here is what I really do suggest:

 

1. If you cannot find a way to relax and enjoy the relationship - you dump him. It is impossible to have a healthy, happy relationship when one person has zero self-esteem.

 

2. Take some time to work on yourself and increase your self-esteem. Get some help from a therapist if necessary. There is great book called - The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. It's not what you'd call an easy read but it is full of very helpful information.

 

3. When you reach a point where you believe you have more good traits than bad (ie you have a healthy level of self-esteem), when you believe that you are a wonderful, special, worthwhile human being (which I have no doubt you are), get back out there and find a man who agrees with you!

 

Good luck!

[ThaWholigan]

Except some of the very same people who are questioning the existence of leagues are the same posters who have supported the idea of leagues in other places. So, what, do they just enjoy arguing with me??

 

And yeah, I've gotten "advice." But it's been the same unrealistic advice that ignores my experiences, all rainbows and fluffy esteem. "Oh V you ARE attractive... even though you absolutely never get hit on, guys have dumped you for being ugly, and there is no real world evidence at all that you are. But I say you are, because everyone is!" Is advice really helpful if it doesn't address the reality of a situation?

 

 

 

Yeeeeeah, that doesn't work, because I spent most of my life not being miserable, and still got no attention. However, I did spend my entire life being ugly, so...

Well I guess you're SOL then, eh?

 

I believe I asked you once if you would rather be miserable or happy, and you replied that you thought that it was delusional to be positive despite the lack of reinforcement, and you would rather be "realistic" and miserable. I would argue that you are more delusional than the people who are positive despite their shortcomings. If you would rather continue to beat yourself up at the expense of at least being somewhat content despite it all, then be my guest. It could be a hell of a lot worse, but if you don't see it that way, we can't make you.

 

But I (and others here) are most likely going to refuse to support the idea because as I said, it would be negligible and enabling someone to continue to be overwhelmingly negative about themselves. Nothing 'real' about it at all.

[verhrzn]

You want realistic and logical? Here is realistic and logical for you.

 

There is no point in 'riding it out until he dumps you'. Unless you can just enjoy the ride, you are wasting both your time and his. From everything you have said in this thread, you are clearly not enjoying the relationship because you are feeling insecure and not good enough for him all the time - that doesn't sound like a lot of fun.....and relationships are supposed to be fun!

 

If he dumps you which (according to your calculations, not mine) he definitely will do at some point, it will be because you have finally convinced him that he can do much better - and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Then we would see you back here proclaiming how you were right all along!

 

Here is what I really do suggest:

 

1. If you cannot find a way to relax and enjoy the relationship - you dump him. It is impossible to have a healthy, happy relationship when one person has zero self-esteem.

 

2. Take some time to work on yourself and increase your self-esteem. Get some help from a therapist if necessary. There is great book called - The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. It's not what you'd call an easy read but it is full of very helpful information.

 

3. When you reach a point where you believe you have more good traits than bad (ie you have a healthy level of self-esteem), when you believe that you are a wonderful, special, worthwhile human being (which I have no doubt you are), get back out there and find a man who agrees with you!

 

Good luck!

 

Ugh, for the last freaking time... there are people out there who don't have more good traits than bad. Sometimes, people are just kinda bad. Why is that so difficult for anyone to comprehend?? It is NOT low self-esteem to just call a spade a spade. It is NOT low self-esteem to say, well, I really don't have that many good qualities. Sometimes, it's just honest.

 

I've read that book, and yeah, not a fan, because it doesn't address that whole question of "Hmm, what if I DON'T have that many good qualities?"

[verhrzn]

Well I guess you're SOL then, eh?

 

I believe I asked you once if you would rather be miserable or happy, and you replied that you thought that it was delusional to be positive despite the lack of reinforcement, and you would rather be "realistic" and miserable. I would argue that you are more delusional than the people who are positive despite their shortcomings. If you would rather continue to beat yourself up at the expense of at least being somewhat content despite it all, then be my guest. It could be a hell of a lot worse, but if you don't see it that way, we can't make you.

 

But I (and others here) are most likely going to refuse to support the idea because as I said, it would be negligible and enabling someone to continue to be overwhelmingly negative about themselves. Nothing 'real' about it at all.

 

Yeah, much better for me to continue dating guys out of my league, getting dumped over and over for hotter girls and not being able to figure out why. That will turn out MUCH better.

 

It is better to be honest about our flaws and short-comings, especially if they are the cause of our dating problems. If I am not honest, how am I going to break the pattern of dating desperate guys over and over again? Every time I try to be optimistic, I get dumped. Optimism and thinking a guy likes me (when he's just desperate or bored) has obviously NOT worked for me.

 

I don't get it... people come to this board saying "I have problems with dating/attracting people" and posters ALWAYS tell them to look for their blind spots, work on their flaws, be honest about their short comings. Why in the world do I get the OPPOSITE advice?