It takes two to tango: personal responsibility in rape

[RapeSurvivor]

Originally posted by dyermaker

What kind of woman would testify that she wasn't raped at someone else's rape trial? On what grounds would her testimony be admitted at a rape trial that she has nothing to do with? How is that relevant? [color=red] Character Witnesses for the Defense. Happens all the time.[/color]

 

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't see how a disinterested party's personal experience would be admitted as evidence--do you have any links to court cases where this has been used?

 

My rapists defense attorney called the friends we all hung out with to testify on his behalf, as well as his friends. They were never asked directly if I was raped -- how could they answer since they weren't there? However, behavior patterns, and choices of the witnesses were presented. My choice was compared to the choices of others and I came out looking like I was asking for it. A good attorney will twist things around and put the blame on the victim and jury's will believe it. Once precedent is set, it can be brought up again and prior rulings used in current cases.

 

People who I thought were my friends, and who were very upset about the rape and who believed me, were questioned in such a way that what the jury heard was that they were not raped by this guy because they chose to not go out with him and I did.

 

My choice was compared to the choices of others and I came out looking like I was asking for it. Much the way Mr Spock's choice to not be alone with someone she has no intention of sleeping with can be twisted around by an attorney to sound like the victim (in this case me) SHOULD have made the same choice to avoid the rape. An individual person and their choices to protect themselvs is not held as an example of responsibility, but the attitude that if one person can protect themselvs in such-and-such manner, then others should too.

 

My jury could not agree on whether I was actually raped, or if I regretted a decision because of the testimony of the people who knew us. Laws are good, but in an effort to make sure that no innocent person is found guilty and can later sue, the laws often protect the criminal simply by what they will allow and disallow in a court room.

[dyermaker]

Any comment on the attitude that women can avoid rape enabling men to get off in court?

I think that's wrong, and a failure of the justice system.

 

I'm sorry if you feel I've quoted you out of context. I do know exactly what you're saying, you're saying that we as a society excuse violent, criminal men because they think about sex.

 

However, I don't feel that women who go out of their way to protect themselves are contributing to this misconception at all.

[Mr Spock]

My choice was compared to the choices of others and I came out looking like I was asking for it. Much the way Mr Spock's choice to not be alone with someone she has no intention of sleeping with can be twisted around by an attorney to sound like the victim SHOULD have made the same choice to avoid the rape.

 

You seem to think I have this bit of info about myself printed on a t shirt and that I walk around wearing it. Hence why I found your Jane and Johnny refrence silly.

[dyermaker]

RapeSurvivor, how would character witnesses for the defense be relevant to *your* rape?

 

There are a ton of people that murderers didn't murder, how is that relevant to a trial concerning the ones they did?

[Paul]

Hi all,

 

This conversation is quickly becoming more and more an argument of semantics and I ask that we all make an effort to return to the original discussion point. I'm a little disappointed to see, despite the widely available statistics and methodologies that some participants are relying on personal beliefs to further their arguments, particularly when applied to the causes and situations that lead to rape. There is evidence available, both from the links I've posted previously and from other sources, to reach educated conclusions and hypotheses pertaining to the prevention and understanding of rape and I encourage all of you to reach for a higher level of discussion.

 

I stated previously that it would be a mistake to limit this conversation to situations where women are the victims and men are the perpetrators and am disheartened to see that we've gone down that path here anyway. I ask that all future posts be gender neutral so that we can make it as clear as possible to those who might happen upon this thread that anyone can be a victim of rape and that those who don't fit the stereotypical mold need not be ashamed or feel alone. Men, women, and children are all potential victims and any sources which suggest or fail to mention otherwise should be treated as suspect.

 

Best wishes,

Paul

[RapeSurvivor]

You are right, Paul. And I apologize.

 

It is just so disheartening to read that attitude about rape - such as Capitald's original post. I got caught up in it because semantics does play a big part in rape trials and legal lingo. I tried to see other's POVs on this, but I guess I'm not very clear on writing out my POV. I was raped. The guy got away with it because the jury could not decide if it was rape based on the character witnesses of the rapists friends. If others hold that attitude still, there is nothing I can do about it. I hope that no one is ever called upon to testify on a friends behalf and say what a great person he (or she) is and that they would never rape someone. I hope no one ever has to testify about how they were raped and be torn apart because they didn't avoid a rape, or watch their families cry in court as they listened to their loved one be bashed and trashed and treated like a whore.

 

CapitalD has not come back here in a while---I hope that maybe he has seen some light in his thinking. The links provided throughout the thread are terrific. Maybe we all need to go back and re-read the information.

[shamen]

I too apologize. It's just hard to remember to use neutral words when talking about this as I too was raped. Won't make the mistake again. Sorry! (I started neutral and switched.)

 

It's just that so many people believe that, "People can avoid rape if s/he really wanted to," that gets me going. This is stated as one of the myths on Dyer's link.

 

I'll stop talking now. Peace!

[Fayebelle]

but I must say that progression to stereotypical he-attacker she- victim was logical considering the nature of the thread.

 

Yes anyone can be raped BUT very few people would ever expect a child to take responsibility for said rape - and as very few men report rape by women (a topic for another thread)- then their crimes of rape often come across as "more violent" and also alleviate the need for "responsibility" on the part of the victim

 

In fact- I believe a lot of people look at rape as a crime of degrees (also unfortunate). Anyone date raped will be subjected to far harsher scrutiny than someone who's home is invaded specifically for the crime. Is a person ripped from their bed ever asked in court "what were you wearing"? Highly unlikely.

[lydiamarie]

thanks, all of you, for your opinions and for contributing to this discussion. i was shocked when i got home and saw that the number of posts had doubled while i was at work.

 

i went back and reread capitalD's original post, which was a response to a thread that i had started:can't 'get over' rape

 

the following is capitalD's post, for your convenience:

 

I like how you take responsibility for things. That is what pisses me off about alot of people here. In a way, I like that you are more mad at yourself then at this man that you were raped. Its like an admission that you can't control the world. Obviously this guy is a bastard and he should be off the streets for a while, but I am glad to see that you are recognizing that it is partially because of you that this thing has happened. You are exhibiting behaviors that can make you a victim to predators like this. I am glad you see this. In any communicative game, it takes two to tango.

 

If you didn't put yourself in a compromising situation you probably wouldn't have been raped. Of course there are other mitigating factors like a history of abuse and they can exert a VERY powerful psychological influence on a person. I believe those psychological damages or traumas can be healed. Before anything however, you have to make some behavioral changes. I believe girls get raped often because they are so afraid of penetration or so uptight about sex, that they build up all this sexual energy and frustration and it causes them to lose judgment in a moment when they are intimate with a man. The woman in this situation decides that she doesn't want to continue because it doesn't feel right but the guy is hot and heavy and ready to go, and if he is not the brightest guy on earth he may not even be able to understand why you want to stop.

 

On the other hand, perhaps even the dumbest person has the ability to know to stop when a woman says no and he is choosing not to do what is right. In any case, its not only two individuals which cause a rape to happen or any bad or good thing for that matter. Its those two individuals and a little thing called society which has plenty of ills and benefits of its own.

 

I hope that heal from this traumatic situation. The only thing I can say is to stay away from bad men. Also, you might think about changing your attitudes about sex, its not a bad or dirty thing, unless you mean those things in a good way. And its not a thing that you should feel guilty about if you make sure to respect yourself. Also, you need to decide if sex is something you will want to do before you get so too close to guys because we are human and we inevitablly want to get some. I hope I have helped.

 

it seems like what he said are the things that we were arguing about all along.

[DacaInaru]

uh last I checked NO means NO regardless of the sistuation, hot and heavy feelings, or stupidity..

[GirlDown]

this is a little late seeing as the post stopped months ago, but i feel the need to say this.

 

i would like to say that instead of educating women on how not to get raped, perhaps there should be more education for men, teaching them not to rape.

 

i was raped also, 1 and a half years ago. and F*CK you, anyone who says i should have known better.

 

i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, even if it would teach some ignorant a**hole a lesson, so this kind of mentality comes to a screeching halt.

 

ew. and shame on you.