It takes two to tango: personal responsibility in rape

[lydiamarie]

I suggested that it's NOT censurable if someone wants to make wise choices, yet others seem to disagree, saying, basically: If you don't live recklessly, you're excusing men.

 

that's not what they are really saying. what i think that some are trying to say is that they are afraid that if people say 'well you could have done this' or 'you should have done that' it leads to thinking that rape is entirely avoidable and therefore is partly the woman's fault. and even if we don't hold that opinion to that degree, but we say that rape is avoidable to some extent, then every risk that the raped woman took makes her more to blame.

[lydiamarie]

what we need to say is:

 

we all need to act prudently. for our own safety.

 

but if something as horrible of rape 'happens' to us, then we are in no way to blame. no matter what.

 

should ofs, could ofs, would ofs all have no place when the aim is to console a victim.

[shamen]

Originally posted by dyermaker

Shamen:

 

 

I think that's ridiculous. An awareness of male sexuality contributes only to informed evaluations of personal conduct, it doesn't magically excuse depraved acts of violence.

 

Dyer:

 

Did you read the sentence after that? It's all connected. It wasn't just that all men think about sex all of the time. Yes, I've heard the statistics. What is it? Men think about sex like every 30 seconds or something? And women? I don't remember. You could probably show us the link to that one...

 

What I was trying to say was that because we think (or know) this, we (as a society) excuse the act of rape because "they were titillated and they can't help it," which is not what rape is really about... Again, from your link, it's about power.

 

Ridiculous? I thought you were above statements like that one. "I think that your conclusion is a bit faulty," would be a bit better.

 

lydiamarie:

 

Right on! Thank you for your posts. I read Rapesurvivor's post and have gotten to understand myself a bit better.

[dyermaker]

Lydia, we're talking about two different things. I in no way implied women are 'asking for it', or that it's their fault. I instead responded to Faybelle's condemnation of the suggestion that someone should make wise choices.

 

Shamen, the assertion has been made that somehow if a woman changes the way she acts to avoid rape, she's facilitating this rapist defense ('she was asking for it') and I think that's ridiculous. If you don't like how I'm wording that, mentally substitute a friendlier phrase with the same meaning.

[lydiamarie]

dyer-we are not talking abou two different things. i understand that you are not saying that women are 'asking for it' or that it is there fault.

 

what i was trying to do was explain what some of the posters on this thread are afraid happens when people start saying that women can do things to keep from being raped.

 

they are afraid that that thinking is a small step away from thinking that women can control what happens to them, can prevent rape to the extent that women's risky behaviour (or lack thereof) is proportional to the degree they are to blame for their rape.

 

they are afraid of people thinking like this:

 

Originally posted by Monday

While a woman walking down the street, who gets attacked by a stranger is raped and it's completely NOT her fault, a woman who is making out with a man *teasing* who gets close to penetration, and then says "no" is pretty dumb.

 

and they are afraid of where that thinking leads.

[Fayebelle]

Originally posted by dyermaker

I instead responded to Faybelle's condemnation of the suggestion that someone should make wise choices.

 

 

In the future kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

 

As you yourself pointed out -rape is NOT about sex - so I refuse to live MY life (note the use of MY, me, mine- indicative of this one person- myself) as though I have to protect myself from Blame if this should ever occur. The fact that many women feel the need to protect themselves from society's and judicial Blame by taking certain procautions is what I find intolerable. Yes- take procautions to protect yourself from the act- but from the moment the CRIME is commited- I don't care if the women was naked dancing the hula on his chest- the attacker is to Blame and should be held accountable- law and society- w/out Any FURTHER attacks upon the victim.

 

I realize that I did not specify the difference between protection from the act and protection from blame in earlier posts but I thought it was obvious from the context- especially if the person took time to read All of the posts before responding.

[Mr Spock]

what we need to say is:

 

we all need to act prudently. for our own safety.

 

but if something as horrible of rape 'happens' to us, then we are in no way to blame. no matter what.

 

 

I agree completely lydiamarie, and I don't see any difference in what Dyer and I said from what you're saying.

[Mr Spock]

so I refuse to live MY life (note the use of MY, me, mine- indicative of this one person- myself) as though I have to protect myself from Blame if this should ever occur.

 

That's your choice Faybelle, but please don't say that my choice to make sure my ass is covered takes the blame off of rapists. Because it doesn't.

[Fayebelle]

I have not Condemned anyone for their choices here - Wait sorry- I did say I get angry w/people who cry rape when it wasn't b/c it trivializes true victems AND yes I condemned the people who stand by and watch such crimes- guess it was a case of quoting out of context again.

[shamen]

Originally posted by dyermaker

 

Shamen, the assertion has been made that somehow if a woman changes the way she acts to avoid rape, she's facilitating this rapist defense ('she was asking for it') and I think that's ridiculous. If you don't like how I'm wording that, mentally substitute a friendlier phrase with the same meaning.

 

What? I don't think that this was said anywhere. What was said was, "That's the type of outlook that leads to the - she should have known all men want sex all the time - defense that gets men off in court." (Fayebelle) It's this thinking, not the changing of the way a woman acts to avoid rape. (This is from page 3.)

 

Also see her response above (at 11:07).

 

Fayebelle: From Dyer's link, less than 2% of reported rapes turn out to be false (FBI statistic).

 

Mr Spock: Have you checked out the other rape link yet? When people start saying that there are ways to avoid rape, which in most cases, there isn't (again, people we know), it can't help but sort of sound like blame. No offense. Really.

[Mr Spock]

Shamen, there is a difference between caring about my own personal safety and blaming the victim of rape.

 

If an old friend whom I trusted but did not want to have sex with in ANY WAY invited me up to his hotel room for drinks and to catch up, I wouldn't go, or at least wouldn't go alone. I'd meet him in the pub instead, or take a girlfriend. Why? Because it's instinctual for me. If Faybelle DID choose to go up and he turned out to be a bastard and held her down and raped her IT DOES NOT MAKE IT HER FAULT FOR GOING UP THERE. IT DOES NOT MAKE IT ANY LESS WRONG.

 

It's just two different outcomes for two different choices.

[shamen]

Spock: Seriously, have you read the link that Rapesurvivor posted yet? It's on page 5. Worth a read.

[Mr Spock]

Shamen, I've read the thread before.

[RapeSurvivor]

Originally posted by Mr Spock That's an extremely good point shamen. However, I'm saying that I wouldn't GO to the room because to me, all men want sex. All of the time. And if I didn't want to have it, I'd just stay in the restaraunt. I'm NOT excusing rape in any way. It's just a way that I protect myself.

 

 

That's the type of outlook that leads to the - she should have known All men want sex All the time- defense that gets men off in court. Totally unacceptable outlook to me.

 

Originally posted by RapeSurvivor: She said it was a totally unacceptable outlook to her. She's entitled to her own outlook. Having gone to court, I can see her point. My rapist got off virtually scott-free with that defense.

 

 

Dyermaker: The connection between "protecting yourself" and "enabling men to get off scot-free in court" was alluded to, but I don't buy it. She wasn't explaining a personal outlook, she was saying that someone else's outlook leads to men avoiding rape charges, which is absurd.

 

So you are saying that because you don’t agree with her outlook, her outlook is wrong? Excuse me, but aren’t you a young man? Have you ever been raped?

 

I’m not sure where you made the connection between self-preservation and enabling a rapist, but let me tell you. In court (and are you an attorney? Can you present a rape case?) my rapist, his friends, and even my so-called friends, testified that we dressed provocatively, and because I voluntarily went out with him, I was at least partly responsible. The lawyer and the witnesses said that I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL HE WANTED WAS SEX and THAT ATTITUDE freed a rapist.

 

Men can want sex without being rapists, can’t they? Men can make passes, or suggest sex, and take no for an answer, can’t they? Do you want girls to NEVER trust you completely because some other guy is a rapist? Do you want to be seen as a potential rapist, because other rapists got away with rape?

 

YES – THIS ATTITUDE / OUTLOOK is most definitely dangerous. If you have ever been in a courtroom for a rape trial and heard an attorney argue this point you might understand the attitude.

 

We don't know what our choices in life AVOID, we only know to what our choices led. Suppose Good 'ol Robert Frost had taken the road MORE traveled? That would have made a difference too.

 

I'm sick of out-of-context literary quotes.

 

It is not entirely destructive to live your life conscious that rape is a reality. It is not destructive to make choices taking that into consideration.

 

 

Why then, did you respond to this section if you are so sick of literary quotes? And why do you say it’s out of context? It’s not – I used it in my post exactly the way I wanted to use it. Are you trying to tell me that my view is wrong? !!!

 

Gosh! Wow! You really think I should live my life aware that rape is a reality?! WHY didn’t I think of that! *shakes head* Yes, that was sarcasm. I knew about rape before I ever went out with a guy. I did (before and after my rape) avoid situations where rape and abuse were not only possible, but likely. Just because I (and anyone else) has not given a detailed, day-to-day account of their lives and decisions, don’t assume that they know nothing.

 

My mother taught me about rape, and sex, and self-protection LOOOONG before I was even in Jr. High School or dating. I know not to touch a hot stove, or dart across the street from between parked cars, and all sorts of things. I even carry my car keys in my hand as I approach the car in a parking lot and I check in the back to make sure no one is hiding there. If it’s late, I find a security guard to walk with me to my car if I need to, and I make sure people know said guard is with me.

 

Someone else mentioned calling “fire” in an emergency. That is not something new. I was taught about that back in the 1970’s and it wasn’t new then either.

 

---------------------------in case you missed it---------------------------------

When I was younger I dressed like my friends did. We were young women and discovering our sexuality and our power. It’s a flirt, fun, and confusing time for young women. I wore tight clothes, high-heels, showed cleavage, and flirted with my body and my words. Just like millions of other young women.

 

I dated, but I didn’t have sex---that was for later when I was in love and had a commitment from someone. I always stopped in time. ALWAYS. I felt bad a couple of times because I felt like a tease. We were necking and petting and I put on the brakes. He had to recover from the whiplash. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for they guys, but we both got carried away. As I matured I was able to recognize the warning signs and put the brakes on a bit earlier---usually. Sometimes the kissing and touching felt so good I didn’t think about anything but the tingle of the moment.

 

One night I was with someone I’d gone out with a couple times before in a group. I’d never been out alone with him. I wanted to because I liked him. He was popular in the group and I admit, I wanted to kiss him and be held by him. I had no intention of having sex with him. I was a virgin.

 

We had a great time that night. Laughing, holding hands, kissing. On the way home he pulled over in a park and stopped the car. I’d been there before --- it was our town’s ‘make out point.’

 

I jokingly pushed his hand away when he tried to reach under my shirt. We kept kissing, he kept teasing, and then I backed off and said I needed to catch my breath. He pulled back too and smiled at me. It was a nice time. Passion and youth---a heady mixture.

 

He reached for me again and I snuggled into his embrace. The car had bench seats---this was some years ago. He was more insistent this time. I pushed and he pushed back. I stopped kissing and he got angry. I told him that we needed to stop. I’d gone farther then this before with others and they stopped. I let a couple of guys fondle my breasts on top of my clothes before and let them rub their penis against my leg, and still we stopped. I’d been pushing this guys hands away—even on top of my clothes, but he wasn’t taking NO for an answer. He forced me down, removed my clothes and raped me. I can’t say any more than that because it still makes me feel ill. I was left bruised and bloody. He was all sweet afterward – like it was the way it was supposed to be. He talked to me about how he enjoyed the evening as he drove me home. He even walked me to the door and tried to kiss me goodnight.

 

I had to get a hold of myself before I went inside. I was able to get to the bathroom before anyone saw me, and I was able to hide the bruises. I didn’t tell anyone for a long time. Someone noticed how I was avoiding the guy though and noticed how I had changed.

 

It was more than a week later before I told anyone and word rapidly got around to my mother. She was mortified and didn’t want to deal with it. She thought I was a slut. My own mother.

 

Thankfully, a school counselor found out and took me aside and got me help. I went to a doctor who confirmed it. The convinced me that I needed to prosecute the guy. They took pictures. The police were involved. My mother went to counseling with me and they tried to educate her too. At home she was so embarrassed and said she couldn’t face anyone and “How Could I?”

 

I felt responsible. I gained weight. I stopped wearing nice clothes. I lost my friends. I didn’t date. I have lied about this for many, many years. I’ve just cut those years out of my life and told people that I didn’t date when I was in school. I almost believe it myself. It was only a year and a half that I was a ‘normal’ teenager.

 

The guy? Charges were pressed. He said I wanted it and that I had been teasing him. The other ‘friends’ in the group also testified about how we dressed and flirted---all of us girls. The guys said we were ‘asking for it’ and if we didn’t want to have sex, we would not have dressed or acted like we did. He walked away with his buddies slapping him on the back like a hero and I was shunned.

[Mr Spock]

I was also date raped, as I mentioned in the other thread. It was a guy that I was dating at the time, very similiar to rapesurvivor's story (except that I didn't have the guts to tell any adults about it at the time and never prosecuted). While it's been almost 20 years, I don't think that I've ever written down the details, even here. Just that I was date raped. It's still too weird to talk about the details yet.

 

I do however, feel as over it as I can get at this point in my life.

 

I didn't think about why I was getting so upset in the post started by the moderators (Capitald's) when someone kept bringing up the point that they wouldn't go into a hotel with someone. I kept pointing out that most people are raped by someone that they knew and how are you going to avoid that? That I was going to live my life as fully as I could...

 

Wow, thank you so much for helping me to understand WHY I was so fired up about it!

 

I know that I could not have avoided it. He was stronger, captain of the football team, someone I'd known for a long time, someone I was dating. Just because I went somewhere to make out with the guy didn't give him the right to rape me.

 

No Shamen, it didn't give him the right, and he's a horrible bastard for not respecting you or your rights, and I feel badly that you were put through this.

 

But what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have gone anywhere with him if I hadn't intended to f*ck him, not that YOU could have avoided your rape. How could you have known he wouldn't stop when you asked him to? You couldn't have, and he was a righteous a**h*** who I would kick in the nuts if I ever saw him.

 

The reason they make it illegal to f*ck retarded people in comas is because they'll sneak in there and do it if they don't.

[shamen]

Maybe it's worth a reread. It explains why it sort of sounds like blame. Our immediate reaction (as people who have been raped) is to say, "No, that wouldn't have protected me, or this other person that I know who was raped." It makes it harder to convince the courts whenever lawyers come up with these alternate scenarios; "Well, she should have known better than to wear that dress, go to that place, open the door, etc."

 

I know that you're not trying to blame the victim here, but being told (in so many words), that you could've avoided the situation is really hard to hear. I couldn't avoid it, the women and men who get raped can't avoid it. I know that you are just trying to protect yourself, as so many women are, but rape can't be avoided.

 

Moi points out in the other thread that the best protection there is is taking a self defense course. Probably true. Maybe this would help in some cases, but maybe it wouldn't. If he has a knife, or a gun, or is just plain stronger than me, I can only do so much. There is so much emotional turmoil going on when the rape is going on, however, that it's hard for me even to say that I would've remembered what to do if I had been trained. I was thinking, "Christ, this is my boyfriend, how could he rape me?" But he did. It doesn't matter that I went to make out with him in his car; it didn't give him the right to rape me.

 

Now, some of you may be thinking, "Well, that's what you get for going to make out with someone in their car." NO. It is his fault, not mine. Others of you may be thinking, "Holy crap, I've made out with someone in their car in a private place. That could've been me." True.

 

EDIT: By the time I posted this, all those other posts came up. Sorry!

 

Rapesurvivor: Spock is a woman. I made the same mistake too initially.

[shamen]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

 

But what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have gone anywhere with him if I hadn't intended to f*ck him, not that YOU could have avoided your rape. How could you have known he wouldn't stop when you asked him to? You couldn't have, and he was a righteous a**h*** who I would kick in the nuts if I ever saw him.

 

 

So, you've never been alone in a room, or anywhere else for that matter, with a man that you didn't intent to f***?

[Mr Spock]

So you are saying that because you don’t agree with her outlook, her outlook is wrong? Excuse me, but aren’t you a young man? Have you ever been raped?

 

I’m not sure where you made the connection between self-preservation and enabling a rapist, but let me tell you. In court (and are you an attorney? Can you present a rape case?) my rapist, his friends, and even my so-called friends, testified that we dressed provocatively, and because I voluntarily went out with him, I was at least partly responsible. The lawyer and the witnesses said that I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL HE WANTED WAS SEX and THAT ATTITUDE freed a rapist.

 

Men can want sex without being rapists, can’t they? Men can make passes, or suggest sex, and take no for an answer, can’t they? Do you want girls to NEVER trust you completely because some other guy is a rapist? Do you want to be seen as a potential rapist, because other rapists got away with rape?

 

YES – THIS ATTITUDE / OUTLOOK is most definitely dangerous. If you have ever been in a courtroom for a rape trial and heard an attorney argue this point you might understand the attitude.

 

Your date was a bastard, and your experience horrible. Your rape was not your fault.

 

I myself, would not have gone for a ride with him if I had not intended on sleeping with him. I am suspicious of people's motives regardless of gender. Does that mean I should live my life like I'm not afraid of rape (I am) abandon my methods of protecting myself ? Is that what you would like to see? Does this make me an enabler because I choose to live my life the safest way that I know how? Please note that I am not implying that victims of rape are careless.

[shamen]

Again, so in your whole life, you've never gotten in a car with a man that you didn't intend to f***? A relative perhaps, a friend, nothing?

[Mr Spock]

Originally posted by shamen

So, you've never been alone in a room, or anywhere else for that matter, with a man that you didn't intent to f***?

 

It would be foolish of me to say no, wouldn't it? Like someone who says they never lie. The last time I can remember being alone with a man I didn't intend to have sex with was a ride home from one of my teammates. It only happened once, and I am distinctly uncomfortable in his presence so I don't allow him to offer me rides home again. He wants me, and I don't intend to ever have sex with him. Therefore, I will not allow myself to be alone with him again.

 

Was I lucky he didn't follow me into my home and rape me? Probably. What you seem to want me to imply is that I think if you DO go to a room, or get into a car, then you're asking for it. Which I completely and totally don't. It's never your fault when someone else makes the choice to have sex with you AGAINST YOUR WILL.

[Mr Spock]

Originally posted by shamen

Again, so in your whole life, you've never gotten in a car with a man that you didn't intend to f***? A relative perhaps, a friend, nothing?

 

And what does this prove Shamen? I'm not trying to say you provoked your own rape, but that's what you seem to be arguing against.

[RapeSurvivor]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Your date was a bastard, and your experience horrible. Your rape was not your fault.

 

I myself, would not have gone for a ride with him if I had not intended on sleeping with him. I am suspicious of people's motives regardless of gender. Does that mean I should live my life like I'm not afraid of rape (I am) abandon my methods of protecting myself ? Is that what you would like to see? Does this make me an enabler because I choose to live my life the safest way that I know how? Please note that I am not implying that victims of rape are careless.

 

As shamen mentioned, you make it sound like you are never alone with a man unless you intend to have sex with him.

 

So, if your male friends know this about you and they find that they are alone with you, does that imply that you are planning to have sex with them?

 

It makes it sound like you don't go on dates, or that every date you go on you have sex with.

Taking steps to protect yourself and reduce risks is one thing, but it almost sounds as though you are hiding from life and only allowing yourself to experience a shallow existence of sexual encounters or sex-based relationships.

 

So I'm asking for a clarification. Are you, or have you ever been, alone with someone of the opposite sex? Have you ever gone on a date and not had sex with the person?

 

 

I myself, would not have gone for a ride with him if I had not intended on sleeping with him.

Do you meet your dates in public places and drive yourself there and back? Or do they pick you up and take you home? Or do they arrive with their parents or a chaparone so that you are not alone in the car with him?

[Mr Spock]

So I'm asking for a clarification. Are you, or have you ever been, alone with someone of the opposite sex? Have you ever gone on a date and not had sex with the person?

 

 

 

quote:I myself, would not have gone for a ride with him if I had not intended on sleeping with him.

 

Do you meet your dates in public places and drive yourself there and back? Or do they pick you up and take you home? Or do they arrive with their parents or a chaparone so that you are not alone in the car with him?

 

Read above. And yes, I do drive myself on dates and drive myself home. I wouldn't date someone I wasn't sexually attracted to. What's your point, Rapesurvior? I certainly don't feel I'm restricting myself, or my life. I am terrified of heights-I don't go skydiving, I don't feel that I'm missing out. The majority of men I meet want to f*ck me, therefore I don't go to hotel rooms with the ones I wouldn't sleep with.

 

Shallow? No.

 

So, if your male friends know this about you and they find that they are alone with you, does that imply that you are planning to have sex with them?

 

This is rediculous.

[shamen]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

It would be foolish of me to say no, wouldn't it? Like someone who says they never lie.

 

What you seem to want me to imply is that I think if you DO go to a room, or get into a car, then you're asking for it. Which I completely and totally don't. It's never your fault when someone else makes the choice to have sex with you AGAINST YOUR WILL.

 

So, in other words, there is no way to avoid rape, is there? I know, with all of the reasonings done here to say that there are things you can do, you can't possibly do enough. The only true way to avoid it is never leave your house, never open the door and become a hermit.

 

I don't get the other post on what this proves. Please explain.

[Mr Spock]

I never EVER said that rape was avoidable. Just that I do what I can to protect myself.