YellowLioness Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 One thing that hasn't been brough up on this thread is that guys are also "raped" by other guys, and other women. Yeah, I know it sounds strange, but the latter can happen, especially if a man is so excited that he has a fear erection. Most people here seem irate about the abuse of women, but it happens to men, too. Link to post Share on other sites
Fayebelle Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Fayebelle If rape was a soley sexual offense than a woman, child, or man Just trying to add a bit of relief to this super serious and tense topic. Proceed w/the debate. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Alright. We've established that no means no-there is NO excuse for having sex with someone without their consent. Not what you wear, not how you act, not where you are. However That being said, this here Vulcan wouldn't DREAM of going to a man's hotel room if she wasn't expecting to be putting out. Does this make sense? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Would everyone viewing this thread want it to be censored? I'm curious. It's offensive because it's insensitive, and ignorant-but are those enough to warrant deletion from LS? Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 There is a HUGE difference, often quite disappointing, between what we expect will happen and what actually does happen. But we must have standards for behavior, regardless of how much one might be disappointed. Clearly, when a female resists sex, then we males should leave. We are not feline, but human, and there is no excuse (even OCDP!!!!!) for forcing sex. Yeah, I imagine there are women that prefer to be flirtatous, and then to act coy. FINE.........................GREAT..................I GET IT, AND SO SHOULD EVERY OTHER MALE...................IT IS AN ACT, CAPITAL, NOT AN INGRAVED INVITATION. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Mr Spock That being said, this here Vulcan wouldn't DREAM of going to a man's hotel room if she wasn't expecting to be putting out. Does this make sense? People can change their minds. People can want to go so far, but not all the way. Some people are deliberate teases, others tease without meaning to do so. Some people don't have their minds made up until they get to where they are going---some people don't know themselves they way that you know yourself, or are as aware of the consequences for their actions. You do know yourself and what different actions might bring. I do too. However, there are some people who I've seen on this board or know in person, who lack the maturity or the experience, or the ability to connect current actions with likely outcomes, who make bad choices. Like going to someone's home or hotel alone when they don't fully plan on a sexual encounter. Life is a chess game and some people don't play. It's difficult enough to try rape cases in court---there is no way we can do it here on the 'net. It's a very fine line for someone who says "yes" under the influence of drugs or alcohol, then later recants because they can't remember saying "yes" and the person who never actually said "yes" at all. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t43527/?highlight=Rape Check out this rape thread too. Link to post Share on other sites
kirkyswife Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 That being said, this here Vulcan wouldn't DREAM of going to a man's hotel room if she wasn't expecting to be putting out. Does this make sense? Spock I agree with you that going to a man's hotel room or meeting a man in the middle of the night such as the situation with Mike Tyson's accuser (who by the way moments before being picked up by Tyson was singing "Money, money, money money" - O'Jay's tune) shouldn't be misconstrued as a walk in the park date. Those are what we call Booty Calls. Also, in the case with Tupac Shakur - the girl gave him oral sex IN the club, went to his hotel AFTER the club, had sex and cried rape the next day - NOT rape at all. These women give women like myself a bad name because it takes MORE for me to prove rape then it does for them to claim it - make sense? I can honestly say in 31 years I have endured a lot - I've probably had every kind of experience talked about on this board - what I ultimately realize is in the majority of the situations I have the ability to control my actions and how I allow others to treat me with the exception of rape (incest, child abuse included). Your basic human right to decide is STOLEN from you and you are subjected to the fantasies of the attacker. On the other hand Hokey People can change their minds. People can want to go so far, but not all the way. Some people are deliberate teases, others tease without meaning to do so. Some people don't have their minds made up until they get to where they are going---some people don't know themselves they way that you know yourself, or are as aware of the consequences for their actions. You do know yourself and what different actions might bring. I do too. However, there are some people who I've seen on this board or know in person, who lack the maturity or the experience, or the ability to connect current actions with likely outcomes, who make bad choices. Like going to someone's home or hotel alone when they don't fully plan on a sexual encounter. Life is a chess game and some people don't play. I couldn't agree more and so that is why Rape is such a delicate topic. For my situation it is clear I was raped. I had no intention on having sex with ANYONE but my bf and my body was violated in THE worst way. All I can say is if more people like myself would find the strength to stand in the public eye and tell our stories and speak to young ladies and youg men about Rape we might have the makings for improvement. I don't know that I can share my story in front of others in person - it's much easier to do so on a message board because I don't have to look at any of you tomorrow or the next day. When I share my information it's honest and true and it helps me heal some of the anger or pain that I feel about it. Sharing it publicly invites the thought that I would have to endure some of the taunting & outcasting I endured 12 years ago. Mr Spock Would everyone viewing this thread want it to be censored? I'm curious. It's offensive because it's insensitive, and ignorant-but are those enough to warrant deletion from LS? Despite my emotional outburst, ABSOLUTELY NOT - we need to talk about ideologies exemplified by people like CapitalD - it's the only way to break down stereotypes and educate/enlighten those who have not had direct experience with particular issues, such as this. I say the more sensitive the issue, the more passionate the response. I've endured the worst, believe me as time goes on talking about it won't be so earth shattering. Fayebelle Even if Cap is the only person who walks away from this thread more informed than he walked in -that is 1 more victory for the side of rape survivors everywhere. I agree with this 100% - One mind at a time!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Fayebelle Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I am so proud of you for coming back to this thread and continuing to contribute. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Yes Hokey, and that's why it's rape-you withdraw consent-but avoiding the hotel room in the first place if you do NOT want to give onsent is just self preservation, and reflects nothing on victims of rape. Going into a hotel room does not make it in ANY way more acceptable to be raped-it's just something that I would not do, because it's not a perfect world in any way. Link to post Share on other sites
shamen Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 The problem with avoiding a hotel room is this... A situation to consider... You have a friend in town visiting you, one you've known for years. You want to go hang out with them in the hotel room before going out. Would you avoid this scenario? It's someone you've known for a long time... As Moi mentioned earlier, most rapes occur with someone that we already know. I've hung out with male friends of mine in hotel rooms before, expecting it to be safe. Luckily, I've never had a problem with this. Sometimes it's not safe though; you never know. I was date raped by a guy when I was a virgin at 16; yes, my bf raped me. When it was over, he said to me, " Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did that again." He knew that I didn't want it and he had done it before. I never reported it. Wish I had because of what he said. It was the mid 80s and much harder to get a rape conviction than it is now (not that it's easy now). kirky'swife's situation is also part of this statistic. It was someone she knew and someone she trusted. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 That's an extremely good point shamen. However, I'm saying that I wouldn't GO to the room because to me, all men want sex. All of the time. And if I didn't want to have it, I'd just stay in the restaraunt. I'm NOT excusing rape in any way. It's just a way that I protect myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Fayebelle Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Mr Spock That's an extremely good point shamen. However, I'm saying that I wouldn't GO to the room because to me, all men want sex. All of the time. And if I didn't want to have it, I'd just stay in the restaraunt. I'm NOT excusing rape in any way. It's just a way that I protect myself. That's the type of outlook that leads to the - she should have known All men want sex All the time- defense that gets men off in court. Totally unacceptable outlook to me. I have male friends I've known for years- Do they Ever want sex from me? Who the hell cares- they aren't getting it willingly- they know that , I know that, and if they force the issue -it's RAPE. Anyone twisted enough to develop a years long friendship for the sole purpose of manipulating her into being alone and than forcing her into bed is already a sick individual. The fact that the woman was w/alone him does not excuse his actions. Link to post Share on other sites
lydiamarie Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 my paranoia probably kept me out of a few situations where i would have been vulnerable. maybe that's part of the reason that women are raped by men they know-because women are cautious and let their guard down around men that they should be able to trust (we *should* be able to trust that no man would rape us...). we have to be cautious. it's a survival skill. i never expected it to happen in my own home. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Fayebelle That's the type of outlook that leads to the - she should have known All men want sex All the time- defense that gets men off in court. Totally unacceptable outlook to me. No it's not. Spock's outlook is a RESPONSE to that twisted justification. She's just trying to protect herself. Link to post Share on other sites
shamen Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I'm not really saying that men do this purposefully (develop a friendship with someone to later rape them)... Who knows? Maybe they drank too much, or they broke up with their gf, whatever. Stuff like this does happen. And yes, sometimes it happens in your own home. With someone you know. So, nowhere is safe really, eh? We can't avoid living our lives... we need to be able to say that something is rape when it is rape! Link to post Share on other sites
Fayebelle Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Anyone willing to give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security will lose both and deserves neither That's not verbatum and I can't remember if it was Jefferson or Adams but you get the idea Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Sorry faybelle I'm not trying to justify male behaviour-that's how I view all of my male friends...it's not an excuse for rape but it's always in the back of my mind. I KNOW that if I wanted to, I could sleep with 98 percent of my male friends. They wouldn't say no. I just try to remember that...sorry if you thought I was justifying any kind of defence for men. Not a boys will be boys mentality at all. Link to post Share on other sites
lydiamarie Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Anyone willing to give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security will lose both and deserves neither that's not a very practical attitude. it's one thing to live one's life in fear, and it's another to avoid being alone with strange men or walking home drunk from a party at 3am saturday morning. there are some things that we can do to be safer. we wear our seatbelts, don't we? but does it keep us from getting hurt in every accident? no. and we eat healthful foods. but that doesn't mean we'll never die. we do what we can. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 In a society where people didn't inflict hurt on other people that would work faybelle, but it doesn't work like that where I live and sadly, I will always need to take precautions with my own personal safety. Link to post Share on other sites
shamen Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Of course we should all do things to keep ourselves safe... I carry mace or pepper spray with me whenever it's dark if I'm walking around where I live. ABSOLUTELY necessary. The things that lydiamarie mentions are also important, but how do we protect ourselves from the ones we know and trust? We can only do so much to keep ourselves safe. There comes a point when we have got to be able to say, "Yes, my friend/bf/husband's friend/whatever raped me," and not have to put the woman on trial for it. I don't know how and when this will happen. I hope it does in my lifetime. Edit... Sorry that I'm just using the word woman and we (as in us women) here. I know that I should be including men too, as men are sometimes raped as well. Link to post Share on other sites
lydiamarie Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 how do we protect ourselves from the ones we know and trust? we shouldn't have to. i wish we didn't have to. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 It's sad, but I suppose the only way to protect yourself is to never think you know someone as well as you actually do-if that makes sense. In dealing with people in all aspects of life. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Fayebelle Anyone willing to give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security will lose both and deserves neither That's not verbatum and I can't remember if it was Jefferson or Adams but you get the idea It was Ben Franklin, and it's totally out of context. Franklin wasn't encouraging people to engage in risky behavior, he was speaking of giving up individual liberty for security from the state. Spock is talking about protecting herself. She's not giving up her freedom, she's facilitating her freedom by avoiding unsafe situations. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Mr. Spock, it's good that you believe you've got it all figured out. That in itself is dangerous because you think you've got all bases covered. Lydiamarie - it's good to see you on the thread. Unfortunately, what you're saying doesn't seem to be sinking in. Link to post Share on other sites
Fayebelle Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Dyer- I concede is out of context- but I believe it applies anyway Spock- I'm glad if that makes you comfortable but I personally refuse to live like that Link to post Share on other sites
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