Should unattractive people have children?

[Els]

The thing is that we all have negative traits that can possibly be passed down via genetics.

 

By that logic, should nobody except perfect humans reproduce? Surely that would lead to the extinction of the human race.

[Els]

I would never want a kid of mine to go through what I went through in school...

 

 

 

If he didn't have to come out Asian, he might have a fighting chance. Maybe adoption is the better route.

 

I love being Asian. Apparently we can do this: 9GAG - Pregnancy test lvl: Asian

[TaraMaiden]

I love being Asian. Apparently we can do this: 9GAG - Pregnancy test lvl: Asian

 

:lmao:LMFAO!!!

[betterdeal]

The family of dwarves for example, did an unfair thing having children. If they wanted children so bad, they should've adopted. Passing on serious genetic illnesses knowingly is a sin against your offspring in my opinion and bad for society as a whole.

 

It's debatable as to whether or not dwarfism is an illness, but where there is a significant risk of a more definite illness (such as multiple sclerosis, for example) then genetic screening of gametes and IVF treatment would seem to be a good solution in those circumstances.

 

That then leads to the slippery-slope-eugenics debate (being black in America or white in South Africa may be seen to be a disadvantage so why not screen out these "illnesses"?) and even without that argument, there's the argument that screening out, say, multiple sclerosis, implies people with multiple sclerosis are lesser human beings.

 

It's an ethical minefield.

[TaraMaiden]

The Buddha teaches the origin of suffering and the cessation of suffering.

 

Please don't confuse being Buddhist with being a doormat.

We are perfectly entitled to tell an idiot s/he's an idiot - providing we do so mindfully. Expressing an opinion strongly isn't necessarily a negative thing to do.

[TaraMaiden]

I support it. Ugly, non-productive people shouldn't reproduce.

 

Beauty is no guarantee of intelligence.

[TaraMaiden]

Why the sarcasm? Why wouldn't it have been a more practical solution?

I'm just wondering what you feel gives you the right to pass such sweeping judgements on others.

 

People have a right to procreate, and being a dwarf doesn't necessarily mean life is going to be hard.

I know of at least one dwarf who has fashioned an extremely successful, lucrative and rewarding career, has a family and children.

Are you telling me you would have advised him against having children - because he's a dwarf?

 

WTF...?!

I know heaps of people who have had kids, who basically don't deserve to be called 'parents'....

[zengirl]

As someone said above, if you're attractive enough to sleep with folks, especially marry and couple with someone, I'm not sure where the idea that you're so ugly comes from. At any rate, a baby that is a mix of two sets of genes is not guaranteed to look any one way, so it's a silly question.

 

I don't personally have anything against dwarves , however a real Buddhist should find a solution that would bring the least suffering for the greatest amount of people . Only a fool would think increasing the amount of dwarves in the gene pool is actually a good thing.

 

I just don't see any basis in Buddhism for this idea of what a 'real Buddhist' would say. The idea of the cessation of suffering in Buddhism is generally not done through external factors like this. You end suffering through acceptance, generally (very generally - I mean that's like a tip-o-the-iceberg generalization there).

[betterdeal]

It's not so much an ethical question as much as it is a narcissistic one. The child that inherited the dwarfism of the two dwarves has to suffer in agony, all because nobody wants to possibly hurt the feelings of the two dwarf parents and tell them its not a good idea to reproduce.

 

Now, a young man has to suffer while watching his brother who did not inherit dwarfism (I've seen a few episodes) play sports he can't play, do common tasks easily, have women in his life, and a bunch of other things he can't do. If you don't think this makes him miserable, think again.

 

First, his brother didn't inherit dwarfism, so that's one "acceptable" human being who wouldn't exist if his parent's hadn't bred. Second, his parents bred, which suggests people with dwarfism can find a girlfriend or boyfriend, doesn't it?

 

As for how he feels, didn't you just question another poster's ability to tell how her friend feels, yet here you are telling me how this stranger to you feels, which seems a double standard on your part. Similarly, your determination that his parents think like you and decided to have children anyway despite having a similar mindset to you is a bit of massive assumption on your part.

 

I'll give you another real life example to consider: friends on mine have two children; the second one had severe learning difficulties. When they conceived a third time, tests suggested the child would be similarly disabled. On that basis, they opted for a termination.

 

A couple of years later, it transpired that their second child was actually hard of hearing, not mentally deficient, and a relatively simple operation gave that child normal hearing. So even though they were following the general idea of not bringing a child into the world with significant disabilities, they feel guilty about the termination.

 

It's just not a simple, black and white matter. The choice to breed is a deeply personal one, and while I appreciate your view, and have some sympathy with the ideas your conveying, it's just not my place - or yours - to judge other people's decisions (just as it is not their's to judge mine) when it comes to as natural an act as reproducing.

[Plan 9 from OS]

It's debatable as to whether or not dwarfism is an illness, but where there is a significant risk of a more definite illness (such as multiple sclerosis, for example) then genetic screening of gametes and IVF treatment would seem to be a good solution in those circumstances.

 

That then leads to the slippery-slope-eugenics debate (being black in America or white in South Africa may be seen to be a disadvantage so why not screen out these "illnesses"?) and even without that argument, there's the argument that screening out, say, multiple sclerosis, implies people with multiple sclerosis are lesser human beings.

 

It's an ethical minefield.

 

I'm glad this was brought up because this thread reeks of eugenics. The problem is that you will never "breed out" ugliness, dwarfism or a slew of other "undesirable" traits. Two attractive people can have ugly children and 2 ugly people can have attractive children. The only way you could assure that unattractive people no longer exist in the future is to genetically modify all fetuses and play God. This is most definitely a slippery slope issue where in the spirit of "continuous improvement", new "issues" would come up to be "corrected"...

[jobaba]

It's not so much an ethical question as much as it is a narcissistic one. The child that inherited the dwarfism of the two dwarves has to suffer in agony, all because nobody wants to possibly hurt the feelings of the two dwarf parents and tell them its not a good idea to reproduce.

 

Now, a young man has to suffer while watching his brother who did not inherit dwarfism (I've seen a few episodes) play sports he can't play, do common tasks easily, have women in his life, and a bunch of other things he can't do. If you don't think this makes him miserable, think again.

 

EXACTLY my point. ESPECIALLY with a brother who can play sports easily and has women throwing themselves at him. And you can't even get a date. It gives you the full picture of how shallow this world is. Why would you want to KNOWINGLY bring a child into this world to face that?

 

It's different if it's a genetic defect between two normal parents ... then you just deal and do the best you can.

 

As someone said above, if you're attractive enough to sleep with folks, especially marry and couple with someone, I'm not sure where the idea that you're so ugly comes from. At any rate, a baby that is a mix of two sets of genes is not guaranteed to look any one way, so it's a silly question.

 

I have worked for the women that I have had relationships with. They have seen my good points and they are less shallow women. None of the women I dated thought I was a 'total cutie' off the bat. And most women won't date me no matter how awesome they think I am.

 

I really think those experiences have made me a better person, but that doesn't mean I want my son to go through that.

 

Good point on the genes thing (though I do think you have a good idea of what a non-mixed kid will look like), but my point was more, "If you're an unattractive person, do you even think about it?"

 

People seem to bring kids into this world who will be ugly, poor, short, or with disabilities without even so much as a thought for their welfare. How you could do that to someone you will eventually love possibly more than yourself blows my mind.

Edited July 19, 2012 by jobaba

[zengirl]

jobaba,

 

I have seen no proof that beauty, intelligence, or even money lead to happiness or that the opposite leads to unhappiness. I do wonder at people who would bring a child into the world on purpose but not afford to care for it or provide for it - that sounds like a poor proposition - but we cannot select specific traits in children, and even if we could, I firmly believe we'd select the wrong ones for happiness.

 

The only consistent keys to happiness, as far as I can see, are low expectations with optimism (but not in a negative way - I mean being excited with the little things, not WANTING big things but thinking you'll never get them), an attitude of gratitude, and the ability to develop a support system, the first 2 which are learned behaviors and the last one something successful families will model, regardless of looks or any other silly traits like that.

 

I don't think there's any way for a parent to make a child a 'happy person' (we're all responsible for that for ourselves, in the end), though there are certainly things parents should and can do for children's happiness in childhood. If someone has such a negative self-concept they find their genes unworthy of reproduction, they certainly may be unable to do that, regardless of whether they adopt or have kids. They will teach those children (no matter how beautiful they are) to have negative self-concepts as well.

 

So, while I think happiness is a great thing to seek in life - perhaps even a noble thing by my philosophy of living - I think that attempting to seek it through shallow, external traits is an idea that is entirely absurd and ineffective.

[Plan 9 from OS]

EXACTLY my point. ESPECIALLY with a brother who can play sports easily and has women throwing themselves at him. And you can't even get a date. It gives you the full picture of how shallow this world is. Why would you want to KNOWINGLY bring a child into this world to face that?

 

It's different if it's a genetic defect between two normal parents ... then you just deal and do the best you can.

 

 

 

I have worked for the women that I have had relationships with. They have seen my good points and they are less shallow women. None of the women I dated thought I was a 'total cutie' off the bat. And most women won't date me no matter how awesome they think I am.

 

I really think those experiences have made me a better person, but that doesn't mean I want my son to go through that.

 

Good point on the genes thing (though I do think you have a good idea of what a non-mixed kid will look like), but my point was more, "If you're an unattractive person, do you even think about it?"

 

People seem to bring kids into this world who will be ugly, poor, short, or with disabilities without even so much as a thought for their welfare. How you could do that to someone you will eventually love possibly more than yourself blows my mind.

 

Despite the hardships you endured as a child, are you a happy adult? Do you have a good quality of life? Do you wish that you were never born? If your current life is fulfilling and you can find happiness, then what's the problem here? Even if you had a child that was "ugly", it doesn't guarantee that he/she will have a miserable childhood.

 

I'm not even sure what to say about this. Again, disabilities are in the genes and most kids with disabilities are born to otherwise healthy parents. To ask people not to procreate because they may be carrying bad genes is eugenics pure and simple. Read up on it and prepare to be horrified by what you find. People commonly equate eugenics to just Hitler, but if you read your history you'll find that many, many prominent people at the turn of the century subscribed to eugenics. Hitler did not originate the concept of the "master race". Eugenicists have been after this long before he came to power. Just like I bet you still would want to be born despite childhood teasing, I would bet many short, poor (this isn't even hereditary), or people with other disabilities would still want to exist despite their condition. Also, this concept denies the possibility of many many normal people coming into existence out of fear.

 

Most of us have bad genes lurking somewhere in our bodies, and if you want to "end" suffering for future generations, then most people should not procreate.

[Mme. Chaucer]

So do you anti-ugly breeder folks think that Hitler had the right idea?

[Negative Nancy]

So do you anti-ugly breeder folks think that Hitler had the right idea?

 

Why are you even bringing this irrelevant statement into the discussion in a typical knee-jerk-fashion when that man had nothing to do with being an "anti-ugly-breeder"?

[carhill]

I've seen some marked examples of 'where did that person come from?', relevant to the objective 'beauty' of offspring versus parents, running in both directions. Genetics doesn't always follow exact formulas and standards.

 

Using LS'es 'standards' of attractiveness, very few people in the world should have offspring. Yet, reproduction goes on. Guess those folks didn't get the memo...

[Negative Nancy]

Well homie ...

 

We always have the option of marrying tall(er) average looking white women and coming out with gorgeous mixed kids.

 

I guess that's an option...

 

 

Why don't you want to marry an Asian woman?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Why are you even bringing this irrelevant statement into the discussion in a typical knee-jerk-fashion when that man had nothing to do with being an "anti-ugly-breeder"?

 

Knee-jerk? Whaddya mean?

 

ONLY beautiful women who exhibited the "Aryan ideal" were chosen as "brood mares" for the Third Reich's Lebensborn program. Physical beauty was key to the Aryan ideal (and it still is among white supremacist groups, though you couldn't tell it by looking at most of their members )

 

Is your keyboard auto-set to include the "rolly eyes" smiley every time you post? You might want to get that looked at.

[miss_jaclynrae]

Knee-jerk? Whaddya mean?

 

ONLY beautiful women who exhibited the "Aryan ideal" were chosen as "brood mares" for the Third Reich's Lebensborn program. Physical beauty was key to the Aryan ideal (and it still is among white supremacist groups, though you couldn't tell it by looking at most of their members )

 

Is your keyboard auto-set to include the "rolly eyes" smiley every time you post? You might want to get that looked at.

 

 

 

I found your point to be a good one.

[sally4sara]

Too much margin of error (overkill) for an unpredictable outcome. A person could walk into one room and find people think they are attractive, walk into the next and find people think they're unattractive. Remember when Julia Robert married Lyle Lovett? Yick! I don't fancy him at all, but she did. Donald Trump seems to marry as a hobby but I think he is very unattractive. I think Lucy Lui is attractive but more people than I wouldn't guessed disagree. I also remember this gorgeous super dark skinned model a few years back. Many times I heard people confused as to why she got work as a model because they didn't think she was pretty in the least. Then again, I see some models and think they look like walking corpses.

Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman made an adorable and well suited couple IMO, but this thread suggests they shouldn't have been able to have their very attractive daughter Lucy. Ben Stiller's parents? Mom wasn't bad but dad? Yeesh! However Ben Stiller is very handsome to me.

And I remember kids growing up that were unfortunate looking but their parents were attractive. One in particular stands out. Her parents were both quite stunning. Gorgeous Scottish dad, striking Ethiopian mother = yellow toned skin with large orange freckles, bad teeth and features that did not blend well.

What would be the point of denying freedoms to people based on opinion (and who's opinion counts here?) will not ensure zero "ugly" people for the future?

[zengirl]

Everybody seeks contentment per being human.

 

I am not sure all people do seek contentment, but I certainly think they should.

 

If somebody hurts you, do you like it?

 

Generally no. What does that have to do with this topic or contentment? One can be content and endure hurt - in fact one must be able to endure hurt to achieve contentment. Regardless of levels of hotness.

 

to suggest that happiness is some esoteric thing is silly, as all seek out situations that make them content and dismiss that do not.

 

I don't think it's esoteric at all. My suggestions for happiness are real behavioral and thought changes any person could choose to make. I totally believe in practical advice.

 

It may be true nothing is guaranteed in life, however some have a head-start as it were on happiness. Somebody born good looking, wealthy, in a supportive/loving home, and has a good education will have more opportunity to be contented and happy than somebody born ugly, in a poor and abusive household and with poor education prospects.

 

If that extreme, yes. I will say, out of ALL those things, I think good looks has the most minimal effect on happiness, and studies would suggest that too. Beauty and happiness have no actual correlation. A reasonable income (with extreme wealth seeing the curve fall downward again) suggests some statistical correlation with happiness, as do opportunity prospects and especially supportive homes.

 

Looks just doesn't have any real correlation to happiness - it's an imagined one. People often think, "I'd be happy if" or "I'll be happy when" but those people are missing the whole point of how to be happy. And, in this case, no data even bears out that attempting to become more beautiful or being re-born more beautiful would make one happier in any way.

[jobaba]

Why don't you want to marry an Asian woman?

 

I don't have a strong race preference actually, and if it is, it is Asian.

 

I was just saying that Asian/white is a very good mix.

 

Both parents could be 5s and if the right mix of genes comes out, the kid could be a 10.

[ThaWholigan]

I've seen a conventionally unattractive couple produce completely beautiful children.

 

Being unattractive doesn't necessarily mean your children will be unattractive.

[Taramere]

Who gets to vote who is unattractive?

 

That's what I wondered. When people say "attractive" do they actually mean physically attractive...or do they just mean "loaded with self confidence and high self esteem"?

 

I've encountered quite a few people who seemed to think that an attitude of superiority coupled with mocking behaviour towards the unfortunate looking would somehow be enough to propel them from average looking to "supermodel". If they were voting then...well, probably the entire world would look end up looking like Samantha Brick.

[MissBee]

I know when a topic like this is brought up, it's usually by a troll as a joke, but this is semi-serious.

 

If you are person who has been unable to attract anybody and you have suffered because of it, would you want to bring somebody into this world who you love and care for and see them go through the same thing?

 

It's definitely something that has crossed my mind.

 

I think I'm attractive some of the time, as do others who are unable to really physically attract anybody I'm sure, and I have learned to be less shallow and enjoy other areas of my life and deal with rejection, use my charisma and persevere. But that doesn't mean I want to put my son at that disadvantage.

 

I used to watch the show Little People Big World, and the two dwarf parents had four natural kids knowing full well each child had a 50% chance of becoming a dwarf (one did). Why would expose someone you love to the extreme prejudices of this shallow world knowing how bad it was yourself?

 

I don't think I would have done that if I was them...

 

First: attractive is subjective.

 

Chances are that if someone liked you enough to have sex with you so that you could have a kid, you weren't that hideous to them. For every person out there, there is someone who finds them attractive. There are some people that may be the "ideal" or that a lot of people are attracted to...but even those people, there are folks who don't fancy their look. I don't think a goal in life should be about having the most admirers.

 

Second: genes and genetics are a funny thing. There is no logic of attractive sperm meets attractive egg = attractive offspring. It is varied like you have people. You don't know what features of what parent a child will inherit and how that will affect their look. It is quite possible and I see it all the time where "unattractive" people produce beautiful offspring and attractive people don't. Just like healthy and able-bodied parents sometimes produce children born with chromosomal abnormalities. Even brothers and sisters, in a family, sometimes they all look very much similar, then in some families you'd have to guess if they were related. Even twins, sometimes one is a bit more attractive than the other.

 

There is no way to predict and I think as long as people are responsible and loving parents they should be able to reproduce as their own physical attractiveness isn't any fool proof way to make sure they have attractive kids.

Edited July 19, 2012 by MissBee