Steen719 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Am I losing my mind....merri...didn't you have a post here that your H actually did minimize the contact and was merely being supportive? I swear I read that. Link to post Share on other sites
Furious Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Am I losing my mind....merri...didn't you have a post here that your H actually did minimize the contact and was merely being supportive? I swear I read that. Hey Steen719 You're not losing your mind, I also saw that post you're referring too and now it's gone. How did that happen? Link to post Share on other sites
Steen719 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Hey Steen719 You're not losing your mind, I also saw that post you're referring too and now it's gone. How did that happen? Lol lol....thank you. I am so glad you saw that!!! I have no idea...maybe merri took it off. Thank you; my craziness still has limits and I am not totally gone..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 Am I losing my mind....merri...didn't you have a post here that your H actually did minimize the contact and was merely being supportive? I swear I read that. Yes, you did. After stewing on it all day and even mentioning it here, thinking that he'd offered "being supportive" as an excuse, I talked to my daughter further and realized I did not have the context the first time. It seemed complicated to explain and easier to cut. The context was her pressing him to give a reason 'why' about a lot of things. He gave the "being supportive" answer, she explained later, with head down and a gesture, as if to say there is no excuse. That was how she took it. It was a choice I made not to be there. I allowed the conversation to be about them more than - or at least as much as - about me. It's okay. And I am ok with her explanation. Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I knew it would be hard to explain, and I'd end up doing this. Let me try again. I was getting more and more pissed and brooding and stewing on this "being supportive" remark. When I asked my daughter, I said that this one thing was an indication that he's still making excuses, trying to look good, protecting his image, etc. She stopped me, saying I'd misunderstood and didn't know the context. She said that he had not offered it as an excuse but that she'd pressured him into saying something - anything. She pushed him to give a reason for continuing the relationship when he knew it was wrong. He'd had his head down for most of this and wasn't saying enough (to suit her), so she kept asking, "Why?" He said it - "being supportive" - like a question, shrugged his shoulders and seemed to realize it wasn't 'reason' at all. She was clear, but I still regretted not being there. Edited July 16, 2012 by merrmeade Link to post Share on other sites
bikinibeach Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) WOW.. I just finished reading this entire thread. I am so sorry you are having to go through all of this. It was really amazing to watch your progression MM and I am glad you are now at the stage where you are PISSED because it empowers you to tap into that animalistic maternal instinct to protect your yourself and your young at any cost!! That is what is important now. I have a few thoughts for you: 1) Relationships (not just romantic ones) are not made to last for eternity. They are tools for personal growth and development, constructs that foster co-creation and when they no longer serve you both, or create more destruction than happiness, it's best to take your lessons, whatever you have learned about yourself and other people, and gracefully bow out without looking back. Life is short. My mother died having wasted her entire life seeking love from losers who stole her beauty and her money and wasted her time. When you are on your death bed, will you look back and be glad that you spent years upon years in counselling with your messed up louse of a husband (not cheap btw) and living in pain every day when you could have been healing yourself, finding happiness and becoming someone who only attracts equally healthy individuals into your life? If you are truly honest with yourself, you will find an instinct telling you to leave this man. If you had listened to that same voice that was calling to you much earlier in the relationship (it was there!) you might have avoided this mess. But all of this happened for a reason...and now that voice is back. Will you listen this time, I wonder? 2) You mentioned concern over the quality of counselors and therapists in your town. Many world class therapists now offer services online with Skype. I just recently 'saw' a doctor who is based halfway across the globe. I have more advice but my fingers are sore from typing Good luck! Edited July 16, 2012 by bikinibeach Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Speaking of therapists... I was given a list of recommended marriage counselors in the area. I narrowed it down to two - a man and a woman - and saw the woman today. I told her everything and then asked what her approach is, would be for us. In her opinion, it's too early for marriage counseling because I am still "in the storm" of raw reaction and need to take care of myself. True enough. (She called it the second hardest thing that can happen, the first being the loss of a child.) She explained that to bring him into this now would prevent my healing and his feeling safe with her. She wants me to focus on myself and not worry about him for now, as long as: the no-contact agreement is in place, we get rid of "triggers" or reminders and we have short disclosure/apology to me in front of the family (our children). She said that I should not worry about him and focus on myself; there will be time to look at the marriage issues we had later, if I still want. It was a novel idea that I hadn't thought about, someone in front of me wiling to just care about me (even though I would be paying her). I told my husband the gist of it. He looked shaken - especially the part about the family disclosure (even though he'd agreed to "tell the boys" and had already told my daughter.) This was different from whatever he was hoping for. He then asked if the other therapist could help him - a big shock for me. He's always acted too good for therapy - but not now. I'm going to keep my appointment with the man therapist and try to talk to the lady I met with today by phone and ask what she thinks about this idea of us seeing different people at the same time for counseling. Edited July 17, 2012 by merrmeade Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I would much rather you seek therapy than you go in as a couple. I agree with her. Link to post Share on other sites
BetrayedH Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 This is likely the best path, MM. You need IC to help you deal with the trauma you've experienced and he needs IC to dig into "why" he chose this path of cowardice instead of fixing the M or divorcing. Many will say that MC is ineffective until he has done this. Based on what he does (or doesn't do) will help you decide on reconciling or divorcing and the purpose of MC will be more clear. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Give him the number and let him make the appointment. Don't make it for him and see if his actions match his words. While you may think it's not a big deal to book an appointment for him, he needs to do some work. Even something like making an appointment. No, I am slow but getting better. I realized this a little while ago and gave him the number. Link to post Share on other sites
Silly_Girl Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 No, I am slow but getting better. I realized this a little while ago and gave him the number. You're doing grand, I promise you. Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 This is likely the best path, MM. You need IC to help you deal with the trauma you've experienced and he needs IC to dig into "why" he chose this path of cowardice instead of fixing the M or divorcing. Many will say that MC is ineffective until he has done this. Based on what he does (or doesn't do) will help you decide on reconciling or divorcing and the purpose of MC will be more clear. Yes, I cannot tell you how RELIEVED this makes me. Though I'm no newcomer to the world of therapy, every time she (the therapist) talks about what I'm feeling right now and how important it is to help myself heal, I feel a stopper pulled out from my insides. That would be a sign it's the right thing. Yes, I need to cry a lot more than I've been doing and stop taking care of everybody else's sh--. The first thing I need to do is get myself a car. I have been sharing H's truck with him and spending a lot of time in my brother's nursing home in between trips. I think I'll get a trainer and start working out every day. Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Those sound like great plans! Link to post Share on other sites
Furious Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yes, I cannot tell you how RELIEVED this makes me. Though I'm no newcomer to the world of therapy, every time she (the therapist) talks about what I'm feeling right now and how important it is to help myself heal, I feel a stopper pulled out from my insides. That would be a sign it's the right thing. Yes, I need to cry a lot more than I've been doing and stop taking care of everybody else's sh--. The first thing I need to do is get myself a car. I have been sharing H's truck with him and spending a lot of time in my brother's nursing home in between trips. I think I'll get a trainer and start working out every day. If you re-read your own thread MM, from the beginning to where you are now, it's clear you've become so much stronger and you're getting closer and closer to the MM who deserves to be happy. (((((hugs))))) Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Okay, the therapist said one thing about her approach, philosophy, whatever for my situation. She said, if I understood correctly, something like - It's time for me to move on and work on myself, not focus on H or SIL. The more I obsess over the details of what happened and keep trying to pry it out of him, the longer it will take for me to recover. Along that line... Now, everything I've read here and elsewhere supports the BS's 'need to know.' However, I have been gathering and gathering for weeks now. I know a lot, certainly the most damning and significant aspects of their relationship. I know what kind of sex they had and, believe me, considering how incapable H is of expressing his feelings, his clumsiness and insensitivity when he did come out with this one detail made me sick. I've also completely gotten over any sense of personal injury from SIL as I finally see what a real loser she is. They both seem pretty pathetic. The other thing the therapist said was that we're going to work on getting me back to my real self (since this terrible reactive state is not) or something like that. I was a little disappointed that we wouldn't be doing an MC version of the gladiators whereby I put H in a ring and slowly eviscerate him with the therapist's nodding approval and applause. Maybe that wouldn't have been so productive and, well, I can see how vengeance might just begat vengeance. I've only met her once. Everything else she said was right on target and in line with what I've read. Maybe, since I have this vague misgiving about surrendering my rage too soon, I can just tell her this next time we meet and see what we actually deal with. Any advice or warnings about any of this? Edited July 17, 2012 by merrmeade Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Oh, also, she was great at showing a role-play of H telling the family and giving step-by-step instructions how we do the disclosure session. I can see that this event will be a MAJOR step toward - dare I say? - closure for me. Whether closure, whether a step toward or away from whatever - it will be Major. Link to post Share on other sites
BetrayedH Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Okay, the therapist said one thing about her approach, philosophy, whatever for my situation. She said, if I understood correctly, something like - It's time for me to move on and work on myself, not focus on H or SIL. The more I obsess over the details of what happened and keep trying to pry it out of him, the longer it will take for me to recover. Along that line... Now, everything I've read here and elsewhere supports the BS's 'need to know.' However, I have been gathering and gathering for weeks now. I know a lot, certainly the most damning and significant aspects of their relationship. I know what kind of sex they had and, believe me, considering how incapable H is of expressing his feelings, his clumsiness and insensitivity when he did come out with this one detail made me sick. I've also completely gotten over any sense of personal injury from SIL as I finally see what a real loser she is. They both seem pretty pathetic. The other thing the therapist said was that we're going to work on getting me back to my real self (since this terrible reactive state is not) or something like that. I was a little disappointed that we wouldn't be doing an MC version of the gladiators whereby I put H in a ring and slowly eviscerate him with the therapist's nodding approval and applause. Maybe that wouldn't have been so productive and, well, I can see how vengeance might just begat vengeance. I've only met her once. Everything else she said was right on target and in line with what I've read. Maybe, since I have this vague misgiving about surrendering my rage too soon, I can just tell her this next time we meet and see what we actually deal with. Any advice or warnings about any of this? Hmm. Well, I don't see many problems with you not needing more graphic detail than you already have. For some, the details just plague them. For others, they can't move forward until they know EVERYTHING and that's when they can begin to process. I have a feeling that you know enough to satisfy your need to know. The bigger problem is your H's willingness to share. Personally, I needed to talk to my W about it daily for quite a long time. If he is reluctant to share, refuses to share details that you request, that's a huge red flag that he's not sufficiently remorseful. He should be proactively falling over himself trying to do whatever he can for you and the marriage. It may take a while for him to "get it." You may lose patience in the meantime, in which case, too bad for him. So I think you ask whatever you want to ask. Don't stop yourself if you want to ask but no, I don't think there's a rule that you must keep up the third degree questioning if you feel you know enough. It sounds to me like your therapist has a plan (all 3 that I saw just sat while I talked) so that's encouraging. But if she jut wants you to put this in the past, look only toward the future, never bring the affair up again kinda stuff - well, that's rugsweeping and that doesn't work. You DO have to process it and probably discuss it ad naseum but whether you need more details is another question entirely. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I don't think she was saying don't find out the details if you need them. She was saying that you have to move FORWARD and stop making this one thing the center of your universe. Accept it, grieve about it, and plan for your tomorrow as though that was just something that happened to you in the past, because it is NOT the sum of who you are. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Okay, the therapist said one thing about her approach, philosophy, whatever for my situation. She said, if I understood correctly, something like - It's time for me to move on and work on myself, not focus on H or SIL. The more I obsess over the details of what happened and keep trying to pry it out of him, the longer it will take for me to recover. Along that line... Now, everything I've read here and elsewhere supports the BS's 'need to know.' However, I have been gathering and gathering for weeks now. I know a lot, certainly the most damning and significant aspects of their relationship. I know what kind of sex they had and, believe me, considering how incapable H is of expressing his feelings, his clumsiness and insensitivity when he did come out with this one detail made me sick. I've also completely gotten over any sense of personal injury from SIL as I finally see what a real loser she is. They both seem pretty pathetic. The other thing the therapist said was that we're going to work on getting me back to my real self (since this terrible reactive state is not) or something like that. I was a little disappointed that we wouldn't be doing an MC version of the gladiators whereby I put H in a ring and slowly eviscerate him with the therapist's nodding approval and applause. Maybe that wouldn't have been so productive and, well, I can see how vengeance might just begat vengeance. I've only met her once. Everything else she said was right on target and in line with what I've read. Maybe, since I have this vague misgiving about surrendering my rage too soon, I can just tell her this next time we meet and see what we actually deal with. Any advice or warnings about any of this? Is she a marriage counselor, or an individual counselor. And if she can/does both...which capacity is she providing her services in to you...MC, or IC? Sounds to me like she's focused entirely on you...which suggests IC, not MC. Which would explain the disconnect between the advice you've seen here and the advice she's giving you. Here...most folks focus on steps to recover the marriage. Having an "even playing field" by being given all the information is key to MARITAL recovery...less so to INDIVIDUAL recovery. Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hmm. Well, I don't see many problems with you not needing more graphic detail than you already have. For some, the details just plague them. For others, they can't move forward until they know EVERYTHING and that's when they can begin to process. I have a feeling that you know enough to satisfy your need to know. The bigger problem is your H's willingness to share. Personally, I needed to talk to my W about it daily for quite a long time. If he is reluctant to share, refuses to share details that you request, that's a huge red flag that he's not sufficiently remorseful. He should be proactively falling over himself trying to do whatever he can for you and the marriage. It may take a while for him to "get it." You may lose patience in the meantime, in which case, too bad for him. So I think you ask whatever you want to ask. Don't stop yourself if you want to ask but no, I don't think there's a rule that you must keep up the third degree questioning if you feel you know enough. It sounds to me like your therapist has a plan (all 3 that I saw just sat while I talked) so that's encouraging. But if she jut wants you to put this in the past, look only toward the future, never bring the affair up again kinda stuff - well, that's rugsweeping and that doesn't work. You DO have to process it and probably discuss it ad naseum but whether you need more details is another question entirely. Yes, it's the rugsweeping possibility that had me worried. I am really not ready to let it go, get past it, etc. Also she told me that, in taking care of myself, I needed to just forget about him. Let him see a therapist (or not) but don't focus on him for now - just me. Not sure I'm comfortable with that. (More later...) Plus I'm reading Shirley Glass' book "NOT 'Just Friends'" and she's a hearty proponent of disclosure talking as a necessary precursor to healing. That makes sense to me. Link to post Share on other sites
BetrayedH Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yes, it's the rugsweeping possibility that had me worried. I am really not ready to let it go, get past it, etc. Also she told me that, in taking care of myself, I needed to just forget about him. Let him see a therapist (or not) but don't focus on him for now - just me. Not sure I'm comfortable with that. (More later...) Plus I'm reading Shirley Glass' book "NOT 'Just Friends'" and she's a hearty proponent of disclosure talking as a necessary precursor to healing. That makes sense to me. Our MC screwed us up six ways from Sunday. He felt that the affair was obviously wrong, my wife didn't deny it, so what the point in talking about it? There was zero accountability. We spent nearly every week discussing my "paranoia" and basically how I should look at everything differently. Because, gee, she's here now with you, isn't she? My W already wanted to rug sweep and he handed me the broom. Ugh. I'd still like to punch that guy in the face. Of course, all my paranoia turned out NOT to be paranoia after all. After those two watched me suffer thru PTSD, go on ADs...Ugh. If you hear anything like that, run. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Steen719 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Our MC screwed us up six ways from Sunday. He felt that the affair was obviously wrong, my wife didn't deny it, so what the point in talking about it? There was zero accountability. We spent nearly every week discussing my "paranoia" and basically how I should look at everything differently. Because, gee, she's here now with you, isn't she? My W already wanted to rug sweep and he handed me the broom. Ugh. I'd still like to punch that guy in the face. Of course, all my paranoia turned out NOT to be paranoia after all. After those two watched me suffer thru PTSD, go on ADs...Ugh. If you hear anything like that, run. Ours discussed her H's affair and then she told me the last time I went that her H had, after many years and a "successful" reconciliation, her H had been in contact with the OW recently. Good way to make me feel optimistic, right? Sigh - She also told us that she was sure one of us was responsible and one was not...you think?? Obviously, I was the responsible one and we had discussed this. She also told me I was cutting XH off when he was talking. This I will cop to. I did do that - because he was telling her that he had not done anything wrong and that I was making it up. She was eating it up and yucking it up with him; talking about motorcycles in between and having a grand old time. When I said - wait a minute; what about OW and this and on and on...she said, I guess he just feels like he can't say it. Give me a break. The next time we went, I showed her messages, pictures of the women he was talking to and some other crap and she looked at him and asked him "what the hell was he doing?" Not a good experience. I stopped going and went to a Psychologist who succinctly summed up my situation and ended up telling me that at the end of all of it that I needed to look at why I picked the men I did. I said no worries, don't plan on ever doing this again and he told me that didn't matter. He was so right and so excellent. I will say that he did not cut me slack; he was honest and did not make any choices for me, but did encourage me when I made some good choices and definitely helped me decide what to do about my son, who was 20 then. He was awesome and worth his weight in gold. BTW, my XH did not go with me as by this time, I had uninvited him. Oh, and XH wanted a lot of credit for going to MC with me. He saw it as a way to appease me, to show he was trying to save our marriage and doing what I wanted him to do. I guess he thought it was ok to cheat there, too. Always with the wrong choices, that man. Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) I really, really appreciate that, BH and Steen. Good timing because I'd flopped from wanting the MC to realizing it's not going to work now. Your stories and my experience today help me let it go. I'd been reading the Shirley Glass book and was so sure we could and should talk using guidelines. I then said to H today, "I'm not comfortable with this plan. We wanted the support of a professional to help us talk. Let's both go to see the other guy together." So he made the appointment for day after tomorrow and then I tried asking him some questions about the affair that were still bothering me. Not a good outcome. I got the answers mostly but also the realization that he is still not getting it. He is sorry for hurting me and for having a physical affair, but it is clear that he does not personally feel that their 'friendship' and 'support' of each other during hard times (and hiding it from my brother and me) was wrong. I could feel his resentment for my lack of understanding. It was crushing, and I should not have put myself through it. I cannot get him to get it. I think the therapist was right; it's not going to happen now. If this guy can get H to understand what he did, well and good. I'll just dedicate myself to the lovely thing the lady therapist said - getting myself strong and whole for my own happiness and to be the parent that my children learned to trust and depend on. Yes. That I want to do. Edited July 18, 2012 by merrmeade Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 IME, a cheater will NOT get it until they have personally experienced rock bottom. What makes them cheat, IMO, gives them a sort of 'cushion' of thinking that allows them to never hit the road bumps, so why should they get anything? They're still pampering themselves. Moving out of his way, letting him see his ugly skeletons on his own, letting him look someone you've exposed to IN THE FACE and seeing their opinion of him...THAT is how he will get it. But you've got to get out of the way first. Link to post Share on other sites
Author merrmeade Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 IME, a cheater will NOT get it until they have personally experienced rock bottom. What makes them cheat, IMO, gives them a sort of 'cushion' of thinking that allows them to never hit the road bumps, so why should they get anything? They're still pampering themselves. Moving out of his way, letting him see his ugly skeletons on his own, letting him look someone you've exposed to IN THE FACE and seeing their opinion of him...THAT is how he will get it. But you've got to get out of the way first. Whoa, that was awesome, Turnera. Sounds like the beginning of a great song.... Anyway, I won't try it again, and it's good I'm straight on that one. So strange that I keep forgetting what he's truly like. Link to post Share on other sites
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