Husband's intimacy with sister-in-law a devastating blow

[merrmeade]

I need advice and objectivity. I see when people post here that sometimes just the fact of putting the situation in words makes the issue so much more straightforward. The truth and support in the posts here are fantastic. I know this will be long and will do the best I can to be general wherever possible.

 

I just found out two weeks ago that for a couple of years my husband has been involved with my sister-in-law in an emotional affair that also had a physical component. The fact of sex or almost sex is pretty much immaterial to me given the depth of their emotional involvement and intimacy, frequent contact and the fact that 99.9% of it was concealed from me. All of it has been concealed from my brother who lives in a nursing home, paralyzed. The fact that I loved and trusted them both was a double betrayal that has sent me reeling even though I must also take responsibility for being gone and leaving him alone with her when they are both clearly in need of emotional support. I fully admit that the marriage was not on solid ground.

 

The R started with a weekly phone call begun 5 years ago when H was hospitalized for 6 months with a life-threatening disease. H still does not have regular work and lives on disability. I am gone for months on end on business while H stays in a small house that my parents left my brother. SIL also stays here when she visits her H, my brother, and my H has gone to her house some hours away to do work on her house. So their visits have been frequent.

 

H has had a history of getting women to feel sorry for him and help him. I have been a complete enabler by looking the other way, feeling or expressing discomfort at the obvious admiration these women, even women we both knew, showed him. I have never succeeded in holding him accountable or talking about how this has been a problem for me.

 

In this current situation, I have looked the other way, in part I think, for the convenience of H's being able to stay in this house while I travel. I also wanted to trust them because my SIL is very religious and was trusted by both my parents - even legally. But there have been so many signs -

her emotional outburst when he suggested moving in with his sister in another state,

her insistence that he has been her anchor and the most important help since my B got sick,

her backrubs when he was about to go in for surgery recently and frequent visits in the hospital (a 6-hour drive for her) and

her increasing discomfort and critical assessment of me (I felt) when we were all together (she barely hid it).

Then, I found the text messages. They were flirtatious, suggestive, familiar and VERY frequent. They revealed knowledge and involvement about every aspect of each other's habits and plans. I went into his emails and there it all was. Hundreds and hundreds of emails over a five-year period. I saw the progression of the R from formal to intimate. She wrote constantly to ask whether he was warm, okay or mad at her. She would apologize for getting mad at him, arrange times to phone, refer to things they had done together. She constantly sought his advice on everything - even things that he knows nothing about. When her father died, she sent him an email asking if he was warm and attached the obituary. He would thank her for birthday presents (which I knew nothing about), refer to some particularly 'volatile' time together and that he found himself 'thinking' of her 'often' (this particular email was actually in 2009). Some weeks their calls were many, many more than the once weekly they claimed. I know because she says in one email that 'last week was over the top but to go back to once a week would be too draconian.'

 

When I asked him, I did not tell about the emails (and still have not because I wanted to be able to continue monitoring). I just said I was uncomfortable with their closeness and got the 'I just listen without judging' line. Then, I made a sarcastic remark to her about how often they are in touch to which she reacted indignantly. I called her back and talked for about an hour, asking pointed questions, expressing my discomfort and begging for answers. She became someone I do not know. Throughout, she denied that it was anything more than a friendship and asked if I had any friendships, implying that is why I cannot understand them. She even brought in our mothers, saying hers had men friends and implied that my mother was 'uptight.' She is a lawyer and treated every topic as an argument to be destroyed. She denied and obfuscated throughout. I was practically begging her to be straight and felt terrible for the confrontation. Later that day I hugged her in an attempt at reconciliation.

 

The next day I confronted H. It was the first, most successful encounter like that of our lives. I basically lied and said she had told me more than she had, so that he had no choice. He admitted everything (94% sure), saying that, yes, their R was wrong. It had been intimate with backrubs, hugging, lying down together (but not sex or kissing). He said that this intimacy had gone on for about a year and he called off the physical intimacy about 9 months ago because (he said) he loved me and could not handle it. He admitted unequivocably that it was wrong. We also discussed the past attractions with women. He admitted he has a problem. He admitted to one infidelity when he was in grad school. He showed great shame at this confession. Though this admission affected me not at all since it was SO long ago, the fact of our talking and his honesty for the first time made me hopeful for our future. He claimed that he thought that I did not want to stay married because I had been gone for so long each time. It was the first honest talk we've had in our marriage where he did not try to defend himself or blame me. (It actually made me think she'd done him some good.)

 

He 'ended' the R with a call the next day that we planned together. He said that he 'ended it and told her good-bye." He said that he told her that he'd told me everything. He said that she agreed that it was wrong. He told her that he has a job that he would like to finish up and then he will leave this house (2-3 months). Then, she told him that I had been a b--- to her in our phone conversation the day before. He defended me saying 'that is my wife' and she apologized.

 

I agreed for him to leave the house to make the call, but this has rankled me ever since. Intellectually I think it was important for her to believe that the call was his and between them, but emotionally I have been unsettled about it. I was especially so when he told me her remark about my having been a b----. This agression coupled with the resolute denial, lying and putting me on the defensive - instead of showing the shame and honesty my H had shown has left me full of rage against her.

 

My husband says that he wants to win back my trust and knows that he must work at it. He has sworn that he will not have any contact with her. He has admitted his problem with flirting with women and will stop. I have told him it's his last chance. I have told him that I will stay here (not travel) until we and all our things are moved out of this house and settled somewhere else.

 

I finally wrote her twice. Once, to say that I knew everything and was very hurt by her deceit and efforts to put me on the defensive. I felt SO relieved after sending this message because up to then I had felt such deep injustice at the fact that the OW, someone I trusted, has treated me like the perpetrator, lied and deceived me. Sometimes it seems so unfair that both of them are getting off so easy, but I refuse to tell my poor bed-ridden brother these facts. Never. So she is, in a way, getting away scott free. She answered the other message (only regarding arrangements for the house. I wrote her again saying that I felt enough relief at having told her that she'd hurt me and that I know everything. I said that I wanted our families to be able to enjoy each other.

 

So, why am I still so unsettled? I would like to tell my SIL that I know everything by telling her the details he told me. I am stung by her calling me a b--- to my H. It's not the name; it's that she did not have the shame that he showed, that she is so indignant and even put me on the defensive. I also do not want her to blame me to my nephews.

 

I am unsettled about my husband. This just seems way too easy at times. I have demanded heart-to-hearts three times since d-day and the last time he pretty much cried and called himself broken, saying he is so ashamed and begging me to try and make our time together meaningful (rather than going over and over this).

 

I am also unsettled about my children. I am fairly sure that one of them has figured out something not quite right was between his father and his aunt because he worked at her house while H did a remodel. I asked my son briefly if he felt uncomfortable with their closenes, and he said that he'd asked her once and she assured him that his father is just a good friend, but one of her best friends. He indicated he'd left it at this but felt that I had every right to ask her myself. I feel I should find some way to let my son express his anxiety about the situation. He is in his 30's but this past year was a very bad time for him, and I have wondered if this was why.

 

I wonder what I'm missing and still must do to make this thing right for me, my brother, my brother's and my children and for my marriage. Thanks for reading this far and sorry it's so long.

Edited June 20, 2012 by merrmeade
reread and found redundancy and lack of clarity in parts

[january2011]

How are you going to deal with future interactions if you don't tell your brother and he's still married to her?

[merrmeade]

What do you mean 'future interactions'? My brother cannot move. All interactions with him are at the nursing home although I think their family does some deep talking. The children are very close to him. My brother is consulted for legal decisions concerning this house and I have informed him that we are leaving.

 

But, yes, I have considered this. He is an adult and has his mind. Maybe he has a right to know and I would certainly prefer to have an ally, but what would it do to what little life he has?

 

btw, my daughter figured out most of this partly because I cannot lie or hide my feelings and she knows me so well. She has been put out with her father for many reasons and thinks that I am making it way too easy for him. She insists in her amazing maturity that I must do what I can live with and that, if that is okay, everyone else will be okay. She is right, but I (in my less amazing 'maturity') have not come to terms with what I will be able live with. Can I tell my brother and live with that? Not sure. I would rather his wife tell him.

 

Of course, they - SIL and H - don't want him to know, they say, for that reason.

Edited June 20, 2012 by merrmeade
mistakes, more info

[january2011]

I meant, future interactions with your SIL. If you don't tell your brother, the relationship between your H and SIL may become the elephant in the room. If you're brother is observant, he will wonder what everyone's hiding from him and why his wife is being ostracised or treated coldly.

 

I agree with your daughter. Whatever happens next, whatever you decide to do, you need to live with it.

[merrmeade]

Good point because it's already even bigger than the elephant in the room. She has announced that she is taking a 'sabatical' from coming here this summer. I suppose she is letting my husband finish his job and leave as he said. My brother also told me that she has written him this.

 

So I think that she is avoiding and that - sadly - our families will be splintered. I am worried that our children will have problems if she continues to blame me. She was not rational on the phone with me. I have pondered writing her some of this and spelling out the nature of her infidelity. My husband insists that there can be no doubt in her mind that it was wrong, but I wonder if I shouldn't make sure she knows that i really know. On the one hand I think it could serve a purpose, make her face what she has been denying.

 

In another thread - "Would you admit?" (which got me to join this forum) - I found this list of reasons about why the OW might lie to the BS. I really needed to read this to understand why my SIL would deceive and basically attack me. I think that my SIL might have lied to me for any of those reasons since she is a lawyer - even #1, since I also clearly don't know her as I thought I did.

 

Here's what

woinlove

wrote:

 

I don't know how typical it is for the

OW

/

OM

to lie to the

BS

. As I said I wouldn't. But some reasons the AP may lie include

(1) it might be their usual mode to lie

(2) they may worry if the

BS

finds out, the MP will drop them

(3) they might prefer to stay in a secret A than in an

R

that is out in the open

(4) they may feel it protects the

WS

's financial advantages in the event of a divorce (depends where they live or if they know the laws)

(5) they may live in a place where the

BS

could sue them

(6) they might be ashamed of their behavior and want to keep it secret

(7) the MP may have asked them to lie,

so

they are doing it "for him/her"

Edited June 20, 2012 by merrmeade

[january2011]

I understand that you're probably very angry and you want to fix this. However, it may not be your job to make your SIL face what she's done. And you may not be able to save her, especially if she feels that she is in the right and doesn't need saving.

 

In my opinion, your energies are better spent keeping your family together and repairing your relationship with your husband (if you wish to continue being married to him).

 

If you decide to confirm everything with your children, you can be honest with them and answer their questions as best you can, if they have any. I don't think you need to paint a picture for them coloured by your thoughts about the deceit and betrayal. They're old enough to decide for themselves the good and bad as well as how they wish to proceed in their own relationship with their aunt. You may wish to decide on a united front with your husband and talk to the children together. This could help to reassure them that you're working on this together as a family - if that's what you want.

[merrmeade]

That was good. very good. It's hard to be alone in such a situation and figure out the 'adult' thing to do. You are right about my SIL. She won't 'hear' it or change because of what I say. She's still deep in whatever universe she/they created, and I certainly can't help her.

 

I might talk to my brother's care manager about it. Care mgrs. are bound by confidentiality, though I hesitate because this is a small town, she also took care of my father and she has a problem with some work my H did for her. However, I think her advice regarding whether or not to tell my brother would be spot on. She's a professional and great at what she does.

 

I want to do the right thing by my children about this and think that what you've said is right on the money. I wonder if I could get my husband to talk to the children because he will be so ashamed and would rather do anything than have them lose respect for him. I actually think that they would not be surprised and would be relieved to see us united in trying to deal with it. I'll sit on this and think about ways to help him realize that.

 

Thank you. You've been a great advisor of the night!

[january2011]

You're welcome. I suggest that he apologises. Accepts responsibility for what he's done. States what he learned from it. Why it's not going to happen again and what he (and you) are going to do going forward to ensure that.

 

It's also worth considering marriage counselling to help guide you both and individual counselling if required, as this may not be something that you can't do on your own.

 

I can see that you're a very rational person and I'm sure that you can get through this.

 

Best of luck to you and your family.

[BetrayedH]

Just from an outside perspective, I find it impossible to believe that there were backrubs, hugs, and lying down together but no kissing or sex. Are they pre-teens?

 

Be prepared for trickle-truth. You should expect to find out more disturbing crap as time passes. It's a virtual rule that the WS will lie and only confess to what you already know. As well, the BS desperately wants to believe they now have a truthful spouse to get to a state of normalcy again, to feel like now we know what happened and can come to grips with it.

 

Unfortunately, that private phone call was a chance for them to get their stories straight and I'm sure they've done the math to realize you got the truth via his email. They won't use that method to communicate again.

 

I agree with the other poster that your SIL is not your concern other than never having contact with your H again. Your H should support this.

 

As for your brother, I typically would say that the other BS has a right to know about the lie he is living. But considering his state, it is worth careful consideration; I think your decision to talk with his care-giver is a wise one. But honestly, his wife's lack of remorse is very troublesome. If she were remorseful and committed to her H, I might consider giving her the chance to repair her marriage over time. But considering what a beoch she is and that it is your brother, I think you likely need to tell him.

 

I wish you luck. These situations are terrible but you'll find a lot of support and decent counsel here. Take what works for you and discard the rest.

[woinlove]

merrmeade, I don't have much advice as I haven't been in your shoes and others here are in a much better position to advise you. But, since you quoted my possible reasons for OW to lie to BW, I thought I'd respond too. Those reasons were just ones that came immediately to mind, but reading your story also makes me think that an OW may lie because she has adopted the mindset that the BW is bad, a problem, the competition, etc. and doesn't even deserve respect, honesty in her mind. I personally never felt that way, at least not consciously, as an OW, but I see quite a bit of that mindset on LS and since your SIL/OW is slamming you, it suggests she has that mindset. I've seen examples on LS where one can watch it develop in real time. I.e. at the beginning of the A the OW says positive things about the BW and feels bad about the A and then as time passes the tone changes to negative things about the BW and justification for the A. This may be the case for your SIL.

 

Also, I would echo the advice about preparing for more to be revealed with time. I've read of very few cases where the WS revealed the full extent of the A on d-day, and the few cases I recall were an A that was very limited in time (a one time or few time event, not something that went on for 2 years). The fact that your H spontaneously revealed earlier infidelity does not, in itself, imply he is fully honest. He may have done that out of guilt (trying to feel a bit better about keeping other secrets). It is possible you are an unusual case where the full truth came out, but just warning you that my impression is almost no cases are like that where the A is so extended.

 

I'm sorry you are going through this, along with all the other things you are dealing with, and the fact that the OW is your SIL certainly adds a big complication for you and your family.

Edited June 20, 2012 by woinlove

[merrmeade]

I am so glad I did this. I tried talking to an old friend who was clearly out of her element with the enormity of it all and the fact that we are talking about such 'good' people with a history of community respect blah blah blah.

 

I need all of what you are saying and am deeply grateful for the detail that you all are taking in about my situation and offering in response. It's better than a therapist. It's hard reality, and I need other grownups that have been there or seen it to advise me. It is making me strong, armed and prepared to do things that I never thought I could.

 

I am going to try to organize information in this posting in case the details are important or interesting to anyone. I'm realizing that any infidelity makes quite a story, and mine is certainly rife with stupidity (mine) and melodrama, considering the time period and circumstances. I suppose each of these issues could be a separate thread, but I am too in the middle of it and need help now. This is the best I can do.

 

Comment 1:

Be prepared for trickle-truth. You should expect to find out more disturbing crap as time passes. It's a virtual rule that the WS will lie and only confess to what you already know. As well, the BS desperately wants to believe they now have a truthful spouse to get to a state of normalcy again, to feel like now we know what happened and can come to grips with it.

Also, I would echo the advice about preparing for more to be revealed with time.

That more might be revealed is not surprising. Of course, my H wants to it to be over and go on like nothing ever happened. The idea that the phone call gave them the chance to get their story straight is not something I'd considered. Definitely interesting. Yes, that was a big mistake. I read on another forum too late that the best way to have the WS 'end it' is with a phone call in which the OW does not know the BS is listening and the WS reads a script written by the WS and BS. That would have been great. I definitely lost sleep over that mistake and lost opportunity. I am now just trying to prepare for the next stages.

 

Comment 2:

The fact that your H spontaneously revealed earlier infidelity does not, in itself, imply he is fully honest.

Oh yes, I realize this. It also occurred to me, especially since he appeared so stricken, telling me about the one affair that happened so very long ago. It seemed conveniently distant and singular, so that he could 'confess' something and be done with it. A safe revelation, perhaps.

 

Question 1:

Are they still in contact?

I have the possibility of a recent contact between them but am truly not sure. Here's what happened: Whenever we visit my brother, he often has us call his family members on our cell phones and hold the phone for him to talk to them. He had me call her - his wife, my SIL, the OW - some days ago. I let him leave a message and then thought about the fact that this was from my husband's phone on the day of their normal weekly (yuck) 'visits,' so I quickly redialed and left a message in my voice explaining what we were doing. Well, some days later, I saw in his list of recent phone calls, a missed call from her in between the two calls from my brother and from me on that day. She had called while I was leaving the voice message. I did not know how to listen to his voicemail at that time and so left it. I don't know why I didn't ask him about it then. Dumb. But yesterday, I looked again and the calls from several days this past week were permanently deleted, including that set of calls. I asked him, as I do every few days, if she had called or tried to contact him. He said no, and that I could look for myself. Duh. Guess that's a bad sign though I think it is possible that the phone only shows messages back a certain number of days. Not sure. OK. I need to tell him about what I saw and ask where those calls went.

 

Question 2:

Is it ethical to read his emails, text messages and check phone calls?

I want to say right here that I have NO PROBLEM sneaking behind his back at this point and looking for evidence. I have been the one lied to and deceived for so long; this is nothing compared to that. However, if asked directly I will not be able to do what they have done. I simply cannot lie to people's faces; I don't try or want to develop the skill. If he asks me, I will have to tell him, and we will have to deal with the question of my right to invade his privacy. If he has had any contact with my SIL, as she is a lawyer, I suppose she will advise him that he has this right. Help?

 

Question 3:

How do we move anew into active disclosure and renewed trust?

I think our only ally is our wish to fix our marriage. He said to me, volunteered this statement actually; I did not solicit it - "I know that I will have to win back your trust now." I felt that was a powerful statement. Even at the time, I did not realize how true it was. I feel that that is all we have, in fact. If we were sitting down with a marriage counselor, it would still come down to that. He has to convince me that he is not withholding information and that he will never do so again. That is the bottom line. Until that is so, we are on tenterhooks because, in fact, I still do not trust him.

 

Question 4:

What do I say to H about why I am still thinking and troubling over it and being suspicious? I know this looks and sounds like a no brainer, but in some areas of this I truly have no brain. Another difficulty is that when I show him my own suffering and doubts, he can only take it for a little while and then literally breaks. That is probably where the marriage counselor could help us, but I fear that he will never agree to it. For now, it's up to me.

 

Perhaps I could say to him what I am actually thinking, which is this:

Obviously if I have any doubt, that's a problem. If I have reason for doubt, that's both of our problems. I do not yet have enough precedent to be satisfied with his word for something. If I find out that he lied about the past, I will have difficulty trusting him about other things as well. Because of the long history of deception, if I find out he is still withholding information about contact from the OW or diluted the truth about the A, it will probably be the end for us. If I have reasonable doubt about his contact with my SIL and he cannot irrefutably prove otherwise, I will have to tell my brother and our children. I will move out, take my things, file for divorce and he will be stuck in a socially disgraceful situation - living in my brother's house, having had an affair with his wife.

 

How does that sound? The real question is can I not only say this but mean it and follow through...

Edited June 20, 2012 by merrmeade

[2sunny]

If/SINCE he's still covering up - the deleted phone records - you can assume that he's not being transparent or honest.

 

Get the phone bill. IF he won't allow you to view it - pack his things and have him move TODAY!

 

If he's not willing to be TOTALLY honest with YOU - there is no marriage to work on.

 

Is he in counseling?

[merrmeade]

Okay, I hear you.

 

However, in the meantime I actually tried to get into his account to see the bill and calls online. I tried so many times to guess at the password that the account is now closed for 24 hours. This may force the issue of my snooping which, unfortunately, can then cloud the basic relationship issues.

 

I need to take a stand about checking behind his back now that I have. Do I let him know this is part of it? How do I admit it? Kind of like being on parole with an ankle bracelet. What is the experience of others with this? Is it time to tell him that there can be no closets, no hidden accounts. I'm not poking around any more and, instead, want full access - any time. Is this reasonable? Legal? Kosher?

[Furious]

Okay, I hear you.

 

However, in the meantime I actually tried to get into his account to see the bill and calls online. I tried so many times to guess at the password that the account is now closed for 24 hours. This may force the issue of my snooping which, unfortunately, can then cloud the basic relationship issues.

 

I need to take a stand about checking behind his back now that I have. Do I let him know this is part of it? How do I admit it? Kind of like being on parole with an ankle bracelet. What is the experience of others with this? Is it time to tell him that there can be no closets, no hidden accounts. I'm not poking around any more and, instead, want full access - any time. Is this reasonable? Legal? Kosher?

 

 

More than reasonable, if he's got nothing to hide.

 

Have you saved the email's and made copies of them?

I would present copies of those emails to your sister-in-law, and let her know if she does not stay away from your husband you will have no choice but to expose them to members of her family and friends.

[2sunny]

He should be OFFERING all that info for you!

 

I would personally have a BERY difficult time even LOOKING at him! I'd want to beat the crap out of him AND her!!!

 

Why aren't you flaming mad?

 

Why not kick him out? I don't care if he's disabled... He's been a complete a$$ to YOU and yet you aren't engaging in honesty - neither is HE!

 

YOU don't have a M - you have a disconnect that involves no honesty - EVEN NOW!

[nofool4u]

So, why am I still so unsettled? I would like to tell my SIL that I know everything by telling her the details he told me.

 

So tell her. And if your brother doesn't know, then tell him. Actually, tell him before you tell her. Don't give her time to think up a half truth, or a lie.

 

 

I am stung by her calling me a b--- to my H.

 

You need to talk to your brother about all of this.

 

 

It's not the name; it's that she did not have the shame that he showed, that she is so indignant and even put me on the defensive. I also do not want her to blame me to my nephews.

 

Blame you how? If your nephews are smart boys, they will see there is no excuse.

 

But you need to talk to your brother. You shouldn't let him be betrayed by his piece of s*** wife without being able to have the information to decide his own destiny.

[merrmeade]

Please easy on me. I'm trying.

[merrmeade]

But it IS the indignation on my behalf that I have been missing. Thank you all for that. It's still not easy. I don't readily believe in my own worth for some reason and doubt what I know. It's easy to intimidate and confuse me. Obviously. It wouldn't be at this point otherwise.

 

But we DID have the first honest conversation about his cheating on me. The first. He DID say he wanted to make it work. (Of course, that means not telling anyone.)

 

I'm going to confront him when he gets home with the phone calls and will post later.

[Furious]

Please easy on me. I'm trying.

 

 

It can be overwhelming with so many opinions, take the time to reflect and take it all in with a grain of salt.

 

You've only recently learned of this betrayal and you must be spinning.

 

Please take care of yourself, rest and try to eat.

 

Hang in there.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Furious
Correction

[nofool4u]

Please easy on me. I'm trying.

 

I know it. We are in your corner and most of us have been in your shoes. I know exactly what you are going through, with the exception of it happening to my sibling.

[2sunny]

I don't think keep things a secret any longer will help. He should be willing to DO whatever YOU ask!

 

Tell family for sure!!!

 

Honesty has to BEGIN somewhere!

 

IF he didn't want anyone to know - he shouldn't have Been DOING things that he'd be ashamed if people found out!

[merrmeade]

Okay, we have talked about the phone calls and looked at the phone together. It was not what I thought I saw. Recently I restored his phone settings, so the call log only goes back 5 DAYS. Then, there is a list of missed calls also going back only 5 days. The only list that goes back more than a year are the voicemail calls that he returned. The day in question would no longer be on the list of calls made/received. The fact that she is not on the list of voicemail calls returned is good. It means that he did not return the call. Yes, it could have been deleted, but I am going with my gut here. I don't think so.

 

I am going with the side of trust. He says that he has had no communication with her since the 'good-bye' phone call. There is no real reason for me to think otherwise.

 

Nevertheless, I did present him with a letter/contract. Here is what it looked like:

 

We need to have a discussion about the recent deleted calls on your phone. This may have to be a new, much harder starting over depending on the outcome.

 

Separate from that, I want you to know I have decided not to communicate further with [OW] about your affair. I believe that she has adopted the mindset that I am bad, a problem, the competition, etc. and, in her mind, do not deserve respect or honesty. That she slammed me and has made less and less effort over time to hide her criticism of me, contempt even, indicates that she has this mindset. In the beginning, she might have said positive things about me, but as time has passed, her feelings and sympathy for you increased while her attitude became more negative about me, ultimately justifying the affair in her mind. (I will not address here your role in allowing this mindset to develop, but it should be obvious.) Therefore, I do not think she will be open to anything I might say and must accept that she is simply not the sister-in-law I knew. It just took me a while to realize this.

 

I'm trying now to let that go and focus on saving us if it is possible. The phone call question, however, could be a major blow to our hope for transparency. I think our only ally is our wish to fix this marriage, but if you are not willing or able to be TOTALLY honest with me - there is no marriage to work on. You said to me, volunteered this statement actually; I did not solicit it - "I know that I have to win back your trust." I felt that was a powerful statement. Even at the time, I did not realize how true it was. In fact, I feel that that is all we have. It will take time because there is simply not yet enough precedent for me to be satisfied with your word alone. If we were sitting down with a marriage counselor, it would still come down to this. Your actions. You have to convince me by your actions, including how you respond to my doubts that you are not withholding information and will never do so again. That is the bottom line.

 

I have put in writing what can and cannot happen for me. It is not rocket science:

• Obviously if I still have doubts and do not trust you, it's a problem that can be overcome if there's no basis in reality for the doubt or mistrust.
  
• If I have reason for doubt, it's both of our problems, and we may not be able to recover.
  
• If you keep any secrets from me, we cannot have trust.
  
• If I find out that you lied about the past or diluted the truth about the affair, I will have difficulty trusting you about other things as well. We simply cannot continue if there is anything still hidden. We cannot have openness anywhere if even one area is kept locked.
  
• If - after this - I find out you are still withholding information about contact with her and you cannot irrefutably prove otherwise, it will probably be the end for us. I will have to tell my brother and our children.
  

At this moment, it is all and only about being truthful, not about what you actually did (they are and they aren't the same thing).

Do you have more that you did not tell me -

about the phone calls?

about the affair with [OW}?

about the nature of the physical contact?

about other affairs in the past?

Edited June 20, 2012 by merrmeade
needed to remove a name

[freestyle]

Once someone has written you more than one bad check--

 

There's nothing wrong with feeling the need to verify that any subsequent checks are good............

 

Voluntary transparency is the only way trust can be restored.

 

And it needs to be on YOUR timetable, not his.

 

He has no right to be impatient with you, if it takes you a long time to trust him again.

[frozensprouts]

OP,

i have read all your posts and you seem like a very intelligent, articulate woman. But it also seems like you are trying very hard to apply logic and balance to a situation where, for the time being, there is no logic or balance.

 

My advice to you would be to take a look at your situation from an "emotional" standpoint, and know that it's okay to doubt, to not trust, to ask for things from your husband that he may not be comfortable with. Right now, you need to look out for you, and make sure that the things you need to feel better happen. I'm not saying that you should ignore your husband's feelings, but he isn't the one who was cheated on, you were, and right now you need to take care of you.

I also wouldn't worry one iota about your sister in law and her feelings right now. To be frank, right now she probably does view you as competition, and you don't need that in your life right now. She needs to leave you two alone, and she needs to know from both of you that, for the time being, contact with her is unwanted. Perhaps drafting a letter to her, signed by both of you, outlining that you no longer wish to have any contact with her, the reasons that you don't, and the consequences that will happen should she try to make contact would help. At least that way, you'll know that you have both been clear in what you want. If she does try to make contact, then be prepared to act and enforce the consequences.

 

As for telling your brother...do you feel he is strong enough for that right now? The thing is, if your sister in law cheated on him with your husband, she may well do it again with someone else. She may also, in time, decide she longer wants to be married and may ask for a divorce. Telling him what has been going on would at least give him the knowledge he needs to make informed decisions about his life. Getting some professional insight into his ability to deal with that news right now is a great idea.

 

it sounds like you been through the ringer lately. Please take time everyday to do something for yourself...be kind and gentle to yourself right now It sounds like you are always there for everyone else...be there for yourself right now. Also, remember that it's okay to ask for the things from your husband that you feel you need to move forward. Counseling would be a great idea, as long as he is willing to put some effort into it. If he isn't, it may not help much. If you need to ask the same questions over and over to feel you are getting the truth, go ahead...but do explain to your husband why you are asking so much.

 

it's still "early days" for you, and , no matter what happens, thing do get better. that may sound hard to believe , but it's very true.

[merrmeade]

Well, that was a fast and furious (no pun intended, Furious!) couple of days - my first thread and the wonderfully supportive and helpful responses that came through. I have been busy dealing, coping and generally trying to get control of myself, my present and future. I gained a lot of courage and insight from the interactions of that first thread. I even looked at the posts of other people who had just found out about their spouse's indiscretions and recognized the stunned, doubtful slow processing that was happening to them. I think that, even though the responses go different directions, the shock value and difference is good and wakes up the BS's injured ego to fight. I'll try to read more in future and be generous with my help when I'm in out of the woods myself.

 

But for now, I'm back with a new question. First, the update: You all were right. There was more information that eked out over the days but not much. H knows that I monitored his phone bill and read his emails. I discovered some birthday orders from him to her, but they were group gifts done with other family members; I checked out. There's been no more contact, so H is pretty much clean and trying. We actually had a great heart to heart because after discovering the birthday orders, as I completely freaked out at him on the phone. It actually was SO CLEANSING - in spite of the fact that his story more or less checked out. I discovered that I can tell him off much better on the phone and vent my abused sense of dignity. I then showed him 8 website pages which described the feelings of the BS and explained the importance of the No-contact letter. He read thoughtfully for a long time and was sincerely chastened. He did go off into "oh, me, oh my, my shame" for a while, making it about him again, but overall it was a good lesson in learning a little about how he'd hurt me.

 

The other thing that happened was I talked to my brother's care manager about the situation. She is a professional and sworn to protect patient confidentiality. She was appropriately sympathetic and supportive of me. We talked objectively about whether or not to tell my brother. She asked a good question: What can he DO about it (given his complete disability) and limited resources? We decided that it was good that I'd told her. If I move away, as will probably happen, she has the knowledge that I have information that will protect him if his wife ever makes that necessary.

 

Now, here is the current situation and concern. It's my communications with my sister-in-law and hers with me. I know that there were varying suggestions about how to handle her, and most of you said to drop it. Well, I couldn't. I just stewed and fumed that she continued to pretend. I wrote an email that said how I felt about what she'd done - mainly my sense of injury at the secrecy and deception and the fact that I'd had a relationship with her for many years. She wrote back that she will not be coming here this summer (even to see my brother) and needs to take care of herself. She is very careful never alludes to the A in email, always couches the wording in ways that the message could be read by anyone.

 

Well, I have not been so careful and THAT is the reason I'm posting tonight. She has sent me two emails within two days telling me how dear I am to her and that she's sure we'll sit down together again and laugh and cry, etc. Then, she sent me a warm (ugh) note of remembrance on the anniversary of my mother's death. Well, these two messages completely sent me into a tailspin. My H just said don't answer and forget about them. But I was incensed that she could continue to act as if nothing has happened and that I should be happy that she is paying so much attention to me. After what she has just done to me, she doesn't deserve to talk about my mother in any context, least of all to remember her to me. She was my mother's confidante before she died (I lived out of state), and, as an elder lawyer, advised her. I regret this now and do not trust her any more.

 

I've been working for over a week on an email to her that says basically that I don’t was a relationship with her; I don’t trust her and shouldn’t have to. Initially, I'd assumed that she was as remorseful as my H and wrote a heartfelt message to her, encouraging our families to come together this summer. When I discovered that not only is she not remorseful, she pretends that everything is normal between us and so I thoroughly regretted my good will gesture. I said, " the possibility that you might try to enter either or both of our lives again is too disturbing for me. Also, because of the pointed questions that you asked during our last phone call about what I know and what information I have, I feel I must answer in detail to assure you that the secret is definitely out and there need be no question, denial or pretense in future. Playing pretend is not only insulting to me but sad and shameful for you."

 

I then wrote all the sordid details of their physical relationship in the email. My H says that they did not have sex but went quite far, every detail of which I described this to her in the email, so that, regardless of whether or not she keeps lying, she knows that I know that she's lying. You all might say that he is probably lying because it's hard to stop when you're aroused, but I actually think it's true that they 'played like' she was just giving him massages, they petted and then the touching stopped. I know there will be doubters, but to me it doesn't matter a flying --- whether they did it or not. The fact of any sexual intimacy merely makes the fact of the relationship's impropriety uncontestable. She can no longer feign innocence and claim it's just a 'friendship.' I also have copies of the 995 phone calls they made in one year, the 385 text messages and examples of some of the hundreds of emails they exchanged. They do not reveal much, and unfortunately the SMS are gone through my own bumbling.

 

My problem is that I know she will be shocked and indignant at the use of words like “breasts,” “fondling,” “arousal,” etc. My question is – is there any possibility of legal retribution for writing her this detail.

 

I commented on the absurdity of thinking that, by stopping the physical interactions, they had made their relationship acceptable and that without actual intercourse, they hadn't crossed the line. Nonsense.

 

I told her that it was clear to me that [she] needed help and, though she probably will not accept anything we have to say, I had decided to try once more:" Then I gave her links and articles to read about emotional affairs.

 

So once more, is it safe for me to have given all these physical details in an email to my SIL? She’s a lawyer.