casey1989 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 If it weren't for enablers that have no respect for marriage or concern for the consequences of banging a MM, there would be no infidelity. But as long as there are women willing to stoop so low, who only think of their own pocketbook and don't care who they hurt in the process, there will be men willing to take them up on what they are offering. So I put the blame on both. It takes two to cheat--the cheater and the enabler who doesn't care if he's married. In most countries in the world, except for a few, prostitution is still illegal, and for good reason. But regardless of whether it is legal or not, it still destroys marriages, families, and encourages human trafficking. You are so naive. Men will always find other women attractive, attraction is human nature, whether we are able to act on it or not is irrelevant. It's the very fact that people want to cheat which destroys families.
zengirl Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 If it weren't for enablers that have no respect for marriage or concern for the consequences of banging a MM, there would be no infidelity. But as long as there are women willing to stoop so low, who only think of their own pocketbook and don't care who they hurt in the process, there will be men willing to take them up on what they are offering. So I put the blame on both. It takes two to cheat--the cheater and the enabler who doesn't care if he's married. In most countries in the world, except for a few, prostitution is still illegal, and for good reason. But regardless of whether it is legal or not, it still destroys marriages, families, and encourages human trafficking. First: Legal prostitution doesn't really 'encourage' human trafficking. No more than fruit or shoes does --- plenty of immigrant labor in the orchards where I grew up had issues with human trafficking and indentured servitude that was illegal, and plenty of our manufactured goods come from essentially slave labor in other countries. Human trafficking is a problem in prostitution partially because it IS illegal (that wouldn't solve the problem entirely but keeping it illegal certainly hinders the trafficking problem). Second: You never answered Elswyth's question --- is a marriage and family REALLY less destroyed if a man wanted and tried to have sex outside the marriage but just couldn't get any? In my eyes, it's the desire and attempt to cheat that destroys the family. You do know that doctors are legally and ethically required to treat criminals, even mass murderers, rapists, and the like. If they did not treat them, that person would die and not be able to repeat his crime. How does that not fit in with your 'enabling' theory? I'm not saying that doctors and prostitutes are the same, I'm saying that your theory is hogwash. Yes, I think that's basically where the analogy was bourne: In many professions where we give services, it is unethical to ask about the personal life of the client. In even more, it is uncommon to do so. But obviously doctors and prostitutes are different in a myriad of ways, so again, not saying they are the same, just pointing out that the way most professions treat clients is not to scrutinize their personal lives for reasons they SHOULDN'T get the service, especially.
Scottdmw Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 You are still ignoring the fact that stats do not paint the whole picture, as people in the sex industry are not forthcoming with information. You can throw about all the stats you like, it doesn't make it an accurate representation of real life. Alright, if you want to talk about your personal case, I have a question for you that might be interesting to the wider discussion. How is your dating life? Are you able to find serious boyfriends? What do they think about your line of work? Do you think they consider you long-term serious relationship material or just good for a fling? What has the experience of other prostitutes you know been with dating and relationships? Do you or the other prostitutes you know want to get married someday? How do you think any future husbands might feel about your job? Scott
KathyM Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 As I said before, in most countries where prostitution is legal, soliciting is strictly not allowed, unless the customer has already voluntarily entered the premises. Now, assuming the man has already entered a brothel, he has already made the conscious decision to cheat on his wife. I'm not sure how you think the 'enabler' makes this any worse. I don't know what you would think if your partner didn't cheat on you because he tried and just couldn't get anyone to do it, but to me, that is every bit as bad as cheating. Whether or not he succeeded doesn't matter. For all intents and purposes, the damage has already been done. So the prostitutes standing on the street or in the windows of the brothel, or the brothel flashing their red lights to entice men to participate is not considered soliciting? Prostitutes approaching men in hotels in countries where it is legal is not considered soliciting? She entices, and enables. You really can't deny that, and why you would want to is a bit weird, to say the least. It takes two to cheat--the cheater and the enabler, and since this thread is about the enabling of it, I'll hold the enabler accountable as well. All cheating is harmful--whether money is exchanged or not. Both parties--the cheater and the enabler, participate in the destruction of a marriage and a family.
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 So the prostitutes standing on the street or in the windows of the brothel, or the brothel flashing their red lights to entice men to participate is not considered soliciting? Prostitutes approaching men in hotels in countries where it is legal is not considered soliciting? She entices, and enables. You really can't deny that, and why you would want to is a bit weird, to say the least. It takes two to cheat--the cheater and the enabler, and since this thread is about the enabling of it, I'll hold the enabler accountable as well. All cheating is harmful--whether money is exchanged or not. Both parties--the cheater and the enabler, participate in the destruction of a marriage and a family. You answer my question first, then I'll answer yours. If you knew a man whom you were with TRIED to cheat and just couldn't because all the women he tried to cheat with turned him down, would that make him any better in your eyes, compared to a man who tried to cheat and succeeded?
Scottdmw Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Most certainly. I come from a country in which prostitution is illegal, and is also part of one of the largest human trafficking rings in the world. Just a hint: It's a close neighbour to one of the Asian countries that people go to to get 'any sort of sex they could ever dream of that would be illegal where they are'. I grew up knowing this. I have many habits ingrained in me from such an upbringing, for instance, making sure not to walk past vans parked at the side of the road, even in broad daylight and in public areas. Far too many kidnappings of women, and we all knew where they went. Because prostitution was 'illegal' there, it was all one huge shadowy mess where you couldn't even tell who was consensually there and who was not, so authorities couldn't focus on the forced ones. Everything was illegal, so nothing was regulated. Those women would hang around on seedy streets after midnight and invite you to hotel rooms. As soon as I could, I moved to a country where law enforcement actually did its damn job. Where women weren't afraid to walk alone in broad daylight and you hear prostitutes talking about their (legal) jobs in the media. Instead of hanging around seedy streets, the women had businesses with security and medical benefits. So much better. You and Kathy can talk all you like about statistics, but it takes living in such a place to actually understand what human trafficking is all ABOUT. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with legal prostitution. And people who disagree with you aren't necessarily doing it because they don't care. Have you ever thought that perhaps they do care just as much, they just understand the harsh face of reality better? Okay, apologies for implying you didn't care. Have you considered the possibility though that in the first world countries that trafficking is still every bit as much there, just less visible. Yes, it is rare for well-off women in first world countries to be trafficked themselves. That doesn't mean that trafficking victims are not brought in. Yes, in some places there are legal prostitutes that have some protections. That doesn't mean that one street over there is not a brothel full of illegal prostitutes that have none. I'm not sure quite what to say to a person who is willing to discount all published articles, studies, evidence, and statistics. People spend their careers studying the problem, but it sounds like you feel your personal experiences are more illuminating. If you feel you've had enough personal experience to be sure what goes on everywhere, I guess I'm not going to convince you. I'll be honest though, it sounds like you are believing what you want in the face of any possible objective evidence. Scott
casey1989 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Alright, if you want to talk about your personal case, I have a question for you that might be interesting to the wider discussion. How is your dating life? Are you able to find serious boyfriends? What do they think about your line of work? Do you think they consider you long-term serious relationship material or just good for a fling? What has the experience of other prostitutes you know been with dating and relationships? Do you or the other prostitutes you know want to get married someday? How do you think any future husbands might feel about your job? Scott I have a boyfriend who knows what I do. He doesn't want to hear all the grizzly details but he is there to get me a cup of tea at the end of the day and listens when I've had a frustrating day. I know a few girls who are married- very happily. One of my friends is engaged. Some girls are single, they prefer it that way. You know, just like *normal* people. One day I would like to get married, but that time is a very, very long time away, I'm too young to handle such a big commitment like that. If I am still doing it, then I would be completely honest. There is really no other way to be. But as I have said before, I am still training in my preferred profession, and will not be in this 'forever'. I can't be bothered to lie, it's too much effort. Men for me go into two camps: ones that can deal with it and ones that can't. As long as you are honest from the beginning then there are no false expectations. Honesty is really the key if you want a relationship and this job.
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Okay, apologies for implying you didn't care. Have you considered the possibility though that in the first world countries that trafficking is still every bit as much there, just less visible. Yes, it is rare for well-off women in first world countries to be trafficked themselves. That doesn't mean that trafficking victims are not brought in. Yes, in some places there are legal prostitutes that have some protections. That doesn't mean that one street over there is not a brothel full of illegal prostitutes that have none. I'm not sure quite what to say to a person who is willing to discount all published articles, studies, evidence, and statistics. People spend their careers studying the problem, but it sounds like you feel your personal experiences are more illuminating. If you feel you've had enough personal experience to be sure what goes on everywhere, I guess I'm not going to convince you. I'll be honest though, it sounds like you are believing what you want in the face of any possible objective evidence. Scott And it sounds like you are proselytizing from your comfortable couch in a first-world country, as many others who conduct the studies do, without even having spent months, let alone years, in the countries you profess to study. I'm no stranger to academia. I'm fully aware of the merits of studies... and their limitations. For every study you can find, it's fairly likely that you'll be able to find a study that supports an opposing claim, if you dig hard enough. And that is for fields involving reasonably contained and limited systems, such as the human body or the behaviour of drugs, with fewer mitigating factors. When it comes to fields involving other countries or cultures, studies cannot even begin to scratch the surface. Perhaps some might if the researchers bothered to spend a few decades of their lives actually living in the places that they wish to study, but the vast majority are written by PhD or postdoc students quoting other research and utilizing already-obtained data. When you say something like 'Yes, in some places there are legal prostitutes that have some protections. That doesn't mean that one street over there is not a brothel full of illegal prostitutes that have none.', it makes me wonder if you even understand what you are talking about enough to realize that they are two separate issues. Trafficking, and legalization. You yourself mentioned in that sentence that trafficking goes on 'despite the fact that legalization is helping OTHER people who are there of their own free will'. The two are separate. Stop talking about them being related, unless you can provide some logical argument for causality between the two. Nobody else is talking about causality. Legalization of prostitution in and of itself has no relation to the incidence of illegal trafficking. Edited June 11, 2012 by Elswyth
Anela Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 You answer my question first, then I'll answer yours. If you knew a man whom you were with TRIED to cheat and just couldn't because all the women he tried to cheat with turned him down, would that make him any better in your eyes, compared to a man who tried to cheat and succeeded? I'll answer this: no, it wouldn't make him any better in my eyes. I know for a fact, though, that some women will just believe that the man didn't try anything, and the woman was just delusional enough to think that (or want that), because I'm living that situation, with a family member who needs to believe that nothing happened, so that she can marry her ******* boyfriend. He tried it on, chatting me up the one day/night she left him alone, and another time declared that he was in love with me, but I'm delusional. Beam me up, Scotty, for god's sake. I still don't agree with prostitution, though.
KathyM Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 You answer my question first, then I'll answer yours. If you knew a man whom you were with TRIED to cheat and just couldn't because all the women he tried to cheat with turned him down, would that make him any better in your eyes, compared to a man who tried to cheat and succeeded? No, it wouldn't, but at least I would not have to deal with a possible STD and thoughts of him actually having banged a hooker while I was making love to him if his intent was never fulfilled. That is something most wives cannot get past. I don't see your point, though. Thinking is one thing, doing is another. If there weren't women willing to give the guy easy sex, he wouldn't be thinking he could get it. If there weren't hookers advertising it to him on the internet, maybe he wouldn't even have the temptation.
casey1989 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 No, it wouldn't, but at least I would not have to deal with a possible STD and thoughts of him actually having banged a hooker while I was making love to him if his intent was never fulfilled. That is something most wives cannot get past. I don't see your point, though. Thinking is one thing, doing is another. If there weren't women willing to give the guy easy sex, he wouldn't be thinking he could get it. If there weren't hookers advertising it to him on the internet, maybe he wouldn't even have the temptation. You are aware of how the internet works right... you actually have to seek something out... funnily enough a sexy picture of me and my number doesn't flash up on screen saying CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE when you turn your laptop on !!! The temptation comes from sexualisation of our culture... sex is everywhere... from porn to music videos, saying that hookers are the cause of the temptation is just ridiculous. Maybe you wouldn't have to... but maybe you would always be wondering when he was going to think that again? When will it actually happen? It's a **** situation either way.
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 No, it wouldn't, but at least I would not have to deal with a possible STD and thoughts of him actually having banged a hooker while I was making love to him if his intent was never fulfilled. That is something most wives cannot get past. I don't see your point, though. Thinking is one thing, doing is another. If there weren't women willing to give the guy easy sex, he wouldn't be thinking he could get it. If there weren't hookers advertising it to him on the internet, maybe he wouldn't even have the temptation. Your answer leaves me with more questions than it answers. Is that a no, or a yes? 'No, but at least I would not...' sounds a whole lot like 'yes, it is better that he just wanted to but couldn't because... ', except in a more roundabout way. If there is an 'at least', then surely the alternative is better in your eyes? Extrapolating to 'if no women would ever sleep with married men, then no married men would even THINK about cheating' is completely out of the topic either. It's like calling someone who eats meat an 'enabler' of killing animals, because if no one ate meat, we would not need to kill animals. Or calling someone who uses a CFC producing product a 'killer of future generations' because if no one used CFC producing products, the ozone layer would not be thinning. I hope you get the point. But I have a feeling you won't, because to you, prostitutes are separate from all laws of logic that define everything else. We've given analogy after analogy with other professions, issues that are potentially harmful/bad for health, etc, and each time you have insisted that they are not equivalent according to your moral yardstick. Which is fine, except I don't see why you feel the need to impose that yardstick on everyone else.
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I'll answer this: no, it wouldn't make him any better in my eyes. I know for a fact, though, that some women will just believe that the man didn't try anything, and the woman was just delusional enough to think that (or want that), because I'm living that situation, with a family member who needs to believe that nothing happened, so that she can marry her ******* boyfriend. He tried it on, chatting me up the one day/night she left him alone, and another time declared that he was in love with me, but I'm delusional. Beam me up, Scotty, for god's sake. I still don't agree with prostitution, though. Well, I think everyone has the right to form their own personal opinions about prostitution/prostitutes. I'm not sure I personally 'agree' with them either - at any rate, I certainly will never choose to enter that profession or solicit their services. But I'm a fervent believer in the philosophy that we should not seek to impose restriction on others unless there is extremely good and compelling reason to do so, and personal belief/morals just isn't a good enough reason. 2
zengirl Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 No, it wouldn't, but at least I would not have to deal with a possible STD and thoughts of him actually having banged a hooker while I was making love to him if his intent was never fulfilled. That is something most wives cannot get past. I don't see your point, though. Thinking is one thing, doing is another. If there weren't women willing to give the guy easy sex, he wouldn't be thinking he could get it. If there weren't hookers advertising it to him on the internet, maybe he wouldn't even have the temptation. I have never once seen a hooker ad pop up on my computer, because I don't search for that sort of thing. Anyone who gets a hooker seeks one out. Hookers don't cold-call for clients that I've ever heard, whether it's legal in the country or not. As Elswyth says, I still don't understand your answer. It's all no, but yes, not a clear answer to the question. Do you really think someone is only as faithful as their options? And do you really want someone who's only as faithful as their options? That's what it ultimately comes down to. Personally, I couldn't get over my husband WANTING to sleep with another woman, even if she turned him down or his credit card got declined or something, whether she was a prostitute or not. But as Leigh says, I'm not sure why wives would have MORE trouble getting over a roll in the hay with a prostitute than a proper affair. Both seem bad, sure, but a proper affair is even worse. A transaction at least leaves the emotional part out of it. But, honestly, my man wanting to cheat would be enough to end a marriage, so I just don't get the 'temptation' angle.
A O Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Trafficking/force is the vast majority of prostitution, not the other way around. If you want to deny this, please offer some evidence. Common sense is my evidence. Trafficking is barely an issue in my country, a country where a couple of thousand prostitutes legally ply their trade. Whatever trafficking takes place is very much a minority element here. And I do believe that would be similar for most “developed” nations. It’s a risky and expensive business and hardly needed in developed countries where there’s always been a ready supply of locals to cater to their markets. The risk and expense involved makes little sense when stacked up against the ready supply of infinitely cheaper locals. But, as a means to catering to a select, minority clientèle, it has its place unfortunately. And that is where this practice mostly resides – on the fringes. It is not mainstream practice within developed countries. So you don't think infidelity with a prostitute destroys marriages? As a percentage of those involved, married or otherwise – it’s insignificant. The rather lax laws of the land towards this practice attest to this. . 1
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I have never once seen a hooker ad pop up on my computer, because I don't search for that sort of thing. Anyone who gets a hooker seeks one out. Hookers don't cold-call for clients that I've ever heard, whether it's legal in the country or not. Hahah, interestingly enough, where I come from and where prostitution is illegal, prostitutes actually do cold-call clients. I've seen it happen, and have been regaled by plenty of real-life stories. That country was just going to hell in a handbasket though, and prostitute rights/trafficking was the least of its worries. It didn't help that the cops spent all their time hunting down peaceful demonstrators, busting in on hotels to raid people having pre/extra-marital sex, and, yes, nabbing random prostitutes whose pimps weren't tipped off enough to avoid/bribe the cops.
Scottdmw Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 And it sounds like you are proselytizing from your comfortable couch in a first-world country, as many others who conduct the studies do, without even having spent months, let alone years, in the countries you profess to study. I'm no stranger to academia. I'm fully aware of the merits of studies... and their limitations. For every study you can find, it's fairly likely that you'll be able to find a study that supports an opposing claim, if you dig hard enough. So, why haven’t you or anyone else on this discussion found one yet? I've offered 5 solid pieces of evidence. If it's so easy to find one that's against, why don’t you present one, or better yet a few like I did? Find a study that says only a small proportion of prostitutes are forced, or that legalized prostitution is correlated to a lower rate of trafficking, or that 50% of prostitutes worldwide are not under the age of consent, or that legalization does anything to help that problem. Of course studies have limitations, but they are still much better than relying on a single person's experiences, which is so far all the pro-legalization group on this discussion has offered. My suspicion is that some of the posters here must've looked for such studies and had trouble finding them, otherwise someone would've posted something. Yes, maybe if you dig through hundreds of articles you can find one that shows the opposite. Doesn't that say something though? And, if you present your own evidence we could at least talk specifics about the various studies. As it is, no one has said anything about the evidence specifically. No one has pointed to specific flaws or methodological problems. All anyone says is that it “must be wrong.” You say you are familiar with studies so I assume you must be in some kind of academic job. How far would you get in your job if you started telling your peers they should just believe you about topics without any evidence because of your experience? When you say something like 'Yes, in some places there are legal prostitutes that have some protections. That doesn't mean that one street over there is not a brothel full of illegal prostitutes that have none.', it makes me wonder if you even understand what you are talking about enough to realize that they are two separate issues. Trafficking, and legalization. You yourself mentioned in that sentence that trafficking goes on 'despite the fact that legalization is helping OTHER people who are there of their own free will'. The two are separate. Stop talking about them being related, unless you can provide some logical argument for causality between the two. Nobody else is talking about causality. Legalization of prostitution in and of itself has no relation to the incidence of illegal trafficking. People have claimed several times in this discussion that legalization helps stop force and trafficking. For example: No, common sense and personal experience dictates otherwise from what you are saying. When prostitution is a legal and tightly-enforced profession, it is easier to regulate the rights and treatment of employees as opposed to when everyone is flying under the radar. Let's look again at this particular piece of evidence: Richard Poulin, PhD, Professor of Sociology at the University of Ottawa, wrote "The Legalization of Prostitution and Its Impact on Trafficking in Women and Children" posted Feb. 6, 2005 on Sisyphe.org: "Although there was a belief that legalization would make possible control of the sex industry, the illegal industry is now 'out of control'. Police in Victoria [Australia] estimate that there are 400 illegal brothels as against 100 legal ones. Trafficking in women and children from other countries has increased significantly. The legalization of prostitution in some parts of Australia has thus resulted in a net growth of the industry. One of the results has been the trafficking in women and children to 'supply' legal and illegal brothels. The 'sex entrepreneurs' have difficulty recruiting women locally to supply an expanding industry, and women from trafficking are more vulnerable and more profitable." That is as close to proof of causality as is possible to provide. Scott
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 My academic field is one which, as I have said, has far fewer mitigating factors and unknowns than the social sciences. In fact, you don't get much more deterministic than my field, because it is the study of deterministic systems in itself. In some facets of life, raw data and facts obtained via surveys and laboratories matter more than others because some aspects of life are more readily explained via the current methodologies that we have. Academia does not explain everything in life. For the last time, no matter what methodology your studies use, they are limited by virtue of the simple fact that they can only detail the cases that they know of. For instance, look at the rape statistics listed here: Rape statistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . The USA has higher rape statistics per 100,000 population than many other countries such as Kazakhstan, the Arab Republic, etc. Do you REALLY think that is a genuine reflection of how much rape really goes on in those other countries? Really? Come on. You're smarter than that. Also, I'm confused as to what your stand is on this issue again. In your initial post to me, you said that you agreed that people should not be judged for prostitution and that it should not be made illegal, you just feel that people should be warned about the potential detrimental effects of the act. I thought we had reached a happy agreement. You then later posted arguing with the legalization of prostitution, and after some conversation with zengirl agreed that there was no proof of causality between legalization of prostitution and incidence of trafficking. Now you're insisting that there is a link? Will you please pick your stance and stick with it, before we get any further?
Els Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Also, just for funsies, I'll indulge you and post some 'pro-legalization studies'. Not exactly peer-reviewed and meta-criticized stuff, here, but yours really aren't either, so here you go... BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Selling sex legally in New Zealand Legalized Prostitution: Regulating the Oldest Profession SFU study says prostitution should be legalized or decriminalized in Canada
casey1989 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) In terms of legalisation I think you're all making it to black and white. Let me explain: In the UK we are allowed to work independently. That is the Law states that No one other but the lady in question should be profitting from her services. This is called 'control for gain'. This is supposed to stop pimps- but these days it's mostly applied to agency owners. ( the benefits/ negatives of which is a whole other debate entirely) Furthermore running a brothel is illegal as well as soliciting services. The biggest law that protects women forced into prostitution though (especially trafficking) is the 'paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force' law, in which clients are held accountable if they see a girl that is being forced into the industry. These laws are not perfect by any means- but the last one and the first one have helped to minimise trafficking in the UK, and mean that clients become more aware that girls may have been trafficked, so they look for warning signs, request information from other punters online, are more careful who they book. The brothel law is in my opinion a bit silly- it is much safer to work with other girls than to work alone, but I understand that people don't want brothels popping up in their area. A good compromise would be allowing girls to set up their own brothels in small 2 or 3 bedroom flats- with no one person being held accountable just because their name is on the lease, but this is all very complicated and hard to decipher legally. Anyway I just wanted to show that specific laws can be put in place to protect the most vunerable all the while allowing girls that want to work in safety, so it's not really so cut and dry as just 'legalising prostitution'. But obviously while all this is still the case, the stigma doesn't go away just because it's legal. I don't think the stigma in the UK is as bad as the US, but it's still there which is why so many of us choose not to speak up. Especially as some seem to believe I deserve to be stolen from, beaten up, raped or killed for my life choice. Edited June 11, 2012 by casey1989 1
Mme. Chaucer Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 What about when his bodacious, great smelling, sexually adventurous secretary bends down in front of him to put his folder on his desk, revealing delicious cleavage - looks him straight in the eyes and licks her lips on her way back up? Get rid of all the prostitutes if you can, but temptation will always be there. It's up to the tempted to resist, not up to the temptations to cease to exist. 1
123321 Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I'm assuming you work for a brothel in some capacity, so your opinion is not exactly unbiased ... Why would you assume that? In any case you would be wrong, and in fact I've said several times I wouldn't recommend it but at the same time I think people have a right to make their own choices. That is what you are dealing with when you “interview a hooker.” Let me tell you about the several thousand hookers within a mile of my house. She will be from 18 to 30, and will often come from a large family. At least six days a week she will get up and get herself breakfast and so on so she can be ready to go into work around 1:00pm. Once in a while she will be under 18 and will have gotten her work using fake ID, and when she's found out all hell will break loose. More on that later. Around noon-ish, a flood of these pretty young woman will ride busses and taxis to the main street areas of town and walk into the "girl bars" to start their shift. Typically another shift will come in around 9:00pm. Inside, they go to a changing room and switch from their rather modest street clothes to something a lot skimpier, and then in the air conditioned comfort of the bar she will listen to music and talk with her coworker friends. Depending on the place she will be one of 6 to maybe over 100 women the bar will employ as entertainers. If she wants to work for less money (about half), she can work as a waitress, and wear a more traditional waitress uniform. The entertainers, or "GRO" as they are called, earn around minimum wage to come in and flirt with customers. Additionally they can earn about half again their daily wage if a customer finds them entertaining and buys them a drink. Once that happens she will typically stay and talk to just that customer for as long as (s)he keeps buying drinks. This is actually how the GRO makes most of her money. Some GROs literally never actually prostitute themselves, but most do to some degree, and when they do they will typically earn about 2x-4x their daily wage from the customer. Since prostitution is illegal, the bar does not do the transaction. So how does it work? Simple. To "go home from work early" costs the GRO about 3 days wages, so she will ask her new friend to pay 3 or more days wages so she can leave with him or her. Any excess goes in her pocket and the rest goes to the establishment. Additionally she has an arsenal of excuses she may or may not use, like cab fare, or whatever, to wring a little more cash out of the customer before their time over is done. Typically she will now be with him until after breakfast, sometimes until just before her shift starts tomorrow. It's crappy work but nothing slavish about it any more than any other job. Now interestingly, a lot of times the girls come from outside the city, sometimes quite a distance, and while prostitution is tolerated to an incredible degree it's still illegal here. When a cousin, sister, friend from back home, etc. needs employment, sometimes a GRO will buy the tickets and fund her travel. If this has happened, and it almost always does unless she is local, the person making the loan is a trafficker and the person taking the loan has been trafficked. See how that works? Now once in a blue moon, a young woman will be desperate for money but not old enough to go into the bar, often they are a single mom or something. If they get employment using a fake ID, then once they are discovered the sh*t really hits the fan. The bar will typically be raided by police + NGO forces, shut down, all the GROs picked up, and anyone who cannot prove they are over 18 will be held. Often the women are raped by the police before being released. After that, they will be interviewed by law enforcement and the NGO and some will insist they are working of their own volition; typically those will be waitresses because they can't be convicted of a crime. The GROs will have a harder choice. They either have to admit they were their voluntarily and go back to work when no crime can be proved or they can claim what the NGO wants to hear, and get assistance and so on if they admit they are a witch ^W^W^W^W^W claim they were victims. Those who are over 18 will be working a few hundred meters from where they worked before within a few days, or after the NGO gravy train runs out, which ever comes first, while the news and NGO will happily announce they "rescued 63 women from an underage sex club" or something similar because the truth doesn't bring in donations nearly as well as the lie does. The underage worker will be sent home until she can return to a different place or for a few months to pass and she's 18. Now how do I know all this? I live here, if a person wants to get a cold beer in air-conditioned comfort with their friends they go into a "girl bar" and have some beer, the typical "beer bar" will be open air with fan cooling. So you go in, and let the girls know you are local and are there for the beer with your friend. Once that is established the dynamic changes completely and some really interesting conversations can happen. I hear about their family, kids, the crazy tourist that was in yesterday, all sorts of stuff. If my buddy and I are not absorbed in watching rugby or talking, we can ask all sorts of questions and get answers that frankly don't surprise me as much as they did a year ago. I can see pictures of their sister, her kids, and parents. they tell me about their home, and what they are planning to do when they have saved some money, or about the younger siblings they are paying to put through school. First: Legal prostitution doesn't really 'encourage' human trafficking. No more than fruit or shoes does --- plenty of immigrant labor in the orchards where I grew up had issues with human trafficking and indentured servitude that was illegal, and plenty of our manufactured goods come from essentially slave labor in other countries. Human trafficking is a problem in prostitution partially because it IS illegal ... Sally is making a living down in Alabama; it's not a great job and surely not what she dreamed of in high school but she's taking night classes and making ends meet. Her cousin Diane back in Pennsylvania has fallen on some hard times, so Sally gets her the promise of a job and buys her a bus ticket. If Sally works legally, say at a shoe factory, no crime has been committed but if she works illegally as say, an escort, Sally is a human trafficker and Diane has been trafficked. That's how it works, but I suspect you knew that. In the case of the massive numbers of "trafficked" women in places like Australia, they are only considered (for the most part) trafficked because they have violated labor laws. Working on a tourist visa and/or in an "illegal brothel" as opposed to a legal one. Usually amounts to one and the same.
somedude81 Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 In terms of legalisation I think you're all making it to black and white. Let me explain: In the UK we are allowed to work independently. That is the Law states that No one other but the lady in question should be profitting from her services. This is called 'control for gain'. This is supposed to stop pimps- but these days it's mostly applied to agency owners. ( the benefits/ negatives of which is a whole other debate entirely) Furthermore running a brothel is illegal as well as soliciting services. The biggest law that protects women forced into prostitution though (especially trafficking) is the 'paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force' law, in which clients are held accountable if they see a girl that is being forced into the industry. These laws are not perfect by any means- but the last one and the first one have helped to minimise trafficking in the UK, and mean that clients become more aware that girls may have been trafficked, so they look for warning signs, request information from other punters online, are more careful who they book. The brothel law is in my opinion a bit silly- it is much safer to work with other girls than to work alone, but I understand that people don't want brothels popping up in their area. A good compromise would be allowing girls to set up their own brothels in small 2 or 3 bedroom flats- with no one person being held accountable just because their name is on the lease, but this is all very complicated and hard to decipher legally. Anyway I just wanted to show that specific laws can be put in place to protect the most vunerable all the while allowing girls that want to work in safety, so it's not really so cut and dry as just 'legalising prostitution'. But obviously while all this is still the case, the stigma doesn't go away just because it's legal. I don't think the stigma in the UK is as bad as the US, but it's still there which is why so many of us choose not to speak up. Especially as some seem to believe I deserve to be stolen from, beaten up, raped or killed for my life choice. Man, I would really like that system over here where I live. BTW, I understand why brothels are not allowed. In most brothels, the woman does not keep all of the money she earns. I'm also sure that a lot of bad things happen behind closed doors. As for having a few girls in the same location, I don't see what's wrong with that. As long as one person isn't in charge and the other girls aren't working for her, then it's not a brothel.
ThaWholigan Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 No the 'bulk' of customers (to my knowledge) are not married- not to say that some of them aren't. They are either young, disabled, recently widowed or divorced. They come from all walks of life. What may shock many of you are a lot of these guys are perfectly normal- there is nothing psychologically wrong with them, they just have there own reasons for using prostitutes. Take going to a bar to hook-up for example; the girl may not want sex, they may end up being sick on their bathroom floor, and all this takes several hours, of possible fruitility. Instead they could call an escort- she would be there within the hour and gone an hour after that. Just for effect, the question was already asked whether the bulk of her customers were indeed married men, and she already replied that it's very likely a minority. I think this thread needs to close now, it's not going anywhere and it's getting stupid. I am very disappointed in the vitriol being shown towards prostitutes though.
123321 Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I think this thread needs to close now, it's not going anywhere and it's getting stupid. I am very disappointed in the vitriol being shown towards prostitutes though. Several people are still having a civil discussion here, I think this is a good case in point for per-thread-banning capabilities.
Recommended Posts