who will you worship God or Satan?

[M30USA]

As long as there are mysteries, there will be frauds pretending to have answers. As long as people have fears, there will be people who exploit them.

 

Religion will always be with us.

 

As will doubters and scoffers. Even your very role was planned by God. You are not the originator of your own thoughts. You and I are merely actors on a stage. If I believe in God it's because God has willed it; if you disbelieve in God it's because God has willed it. Even Satan, himself, is being used by God to carry out God's holy plan. The Bible says God is PLEASED when his Word is called foolish. Why? Because only those who believe the foolishness will be saved. He doesn't want anyone coming to him who can boast for any reason. We are saved by foolishness. That's what the Bible says.

Edited June 16, 2012 by M30USA

[KathyM]

As will doubters and scoffers. Even your very role was planned by God. You are not the originator of your own thoughts. You and I are merely actors on a stage. If I believe in God it's because God has willed it; if you disbelieve in God it's because God has willed it. Even Satan, himself, is being used by God to carry out God's holy plan. The Bible says God is PLEASED when his Word is called foolish. Why? Because only those who believe the foolishness will be saved. He doesn't want anyone coming to him who can boast for any reason. We are saved by foolishness. That's what the Bible says.

Your motives are questionable with some of the things you say, and you are not giving an accurate representation of the Bible. While I agree with you that there will always be doubters and scoffers, until Christ returns and leaves no doubt to anyone of His existence, when you say we are merely actors on a stage and not the originators of our own thoughts, that is not true. God gave us free will to choose for ourselves who we will worship and follow. God gave us the choice whom to believe in. Satan is allowed to remain and allowed to continue to tempt us because God wants to see who is genuinely seeking God and rejecting Satan's empty promises. God is using Satan to separate the wheat from the shaft.

[M30USA]

Your motives are questionable with some of the things you say, and you are not giving an accurate representation of the Bible. While I agree with you that there will always be doubters and scoffers, until Christ returns and leaves no doubt to anyone of His existence, when you say we are merely actors on a stage and not the originators of our own thoughts, that is not true. God gave us free will to choose for ourselves who we will worship and follow. God gave us the choice whom to believe in. Satan is allowed to remain and allowed to continue to tempt us because God wants to see who is genuinely seeking God and rejecting Satan's empty promises. God is using Satan to separate the wheat from the shaft.

 

Okay, well let this be a disagreement among two people who both follow Christ. I ask you to show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that we chose to follow God. Rather, it always talks of God choosing us. Also implicit in the idea that we choose to follow God is the false idea that humans possess any goodness and knowledge of him at the very outset--an idea which is repeatedly rejected in the Bible. Humans are born "haters of God" until God, entirely on his own and without any doing on our part, has mercy on us and reveals himself through the Holy Spirit to us, and calls us to himself--for his sake, not ours. It's a hard concept to digest. But most of the leading theologians, and even popular pastors such as Dr. John MacArthur, espouse this idea.

 

Please read this section from Romans 9 if you haven't already:

 

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9)

Edited June 16, 2012 by M30USA

[quickjoe]

It's odd watching two people argue over stories.

[pureinheart]

but see, that's what's wrong.

 

we are a technology/information driven society, we will only be moreso as time goes on.

 

and there's no room in such a society for people who only 'believe' their own 'beliefs'.

 

religion will be dead in a century in western industrialized countries, for all intents and purposes.

 

I have to disagree with you on this one, as technology is increasing and spreading all religions/beliefs faster and reaching more people everyday, I would say it will only increase.

 

I do get where you get this notion though as the legal systems are trying to remove/removing God from various institutions like schools and public buildings. At first this disturbed me. Now concerning my own faith, God spoke to my heart and said, "they only think they are removing Me, remember, where sin abounds, grace increases...I'm there and always will be".

Edited June 16, 2012 by pureinheart

[pureinheart]

As will doubters and scoffers. Even your very role was planned by God. You are not the originator of your own thoughts. You and I are merely actors on a stage. If I believe in God it's because God has willed it; if you disbelieve in God it's because God has willed it. Even Satan, himself, is being used by God to carry out God's holy plan. The Bible says God is PLEASED when his Word is called foolish. Why? Because only those who believe the foolishness will be saved. He doesn't want anyone coming to him who can boast for any reason. We are saved by foolishness. That's what the Bible says.

 

Okay, well let this be a disagreement among two people who both follow Christ. I ask you to show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that we chose to follow God. Rather, it always talks of God choosing us. Also implicit in the idea that we choose to follow God is the false idea that humans possess any goodness and knowledge of him at the very outset--an idea which is repeatedly rejected in the Bible. Humans are born "haters of God" until God, entirely on his own and without any doing on our part, has mercy on us and reveals himself through the Holy Spirit to us, and calls us to himself--for his sake, not ours. It's a hard concept to digest. But most of the leading theologians, and even popular pastors such as Dr. John MacArthur, espouse this idea.

 

Please read this section from Romans 9 if you haven't already:

 

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9)

 

 

With all due respect, M30, I think you might be reading this wrong...I really like John M., he was one of the first that I studied under along with Hal Lindsey and a bunch of others.

 

Here's a link: Election and Predestination: The Sovereignty of God in Salvation

 

IMO the Predestination Theology is simply communicating that God already knew who would receive Him and who wouldn't. God knows the past, present and future, so it would make sense that He knows what will happen before it takes place in our lives...this is evident in prophecy- the Book of Revelation talks about future events, they have not taken place for mankind yet.

 

I hope I'm making sense as this is a difficult theology for me to put into words so please bare with me:o

 

Our lives are being played out as God knew they would, as we chose them to turn out in some instances, instances of salvation and free will, our free will always remains in tact. He knows when we will ask for Divine Intervention and intervenes according to His will and purpose.

 

As far as Romans 9, just off the top of my head, I would say He is speaking to the nation of Israel (first paragraph), specifically I'd also say that after Moses went to the Pharaoh several times and the Pharaoh didn't keep his word, God knowing the hearts of the people and Pharaoh, hardened the heart of Pharaoh further (which was already hard to begin with) ....God already knowing that Pharaoh would never accept Him.

 

The second paragraph I think is the transition of Gentiles having the same advantages as Jews, meaning salvation. The Jewish people took issue with Gentiles at that time. I didn't study this part though so don't hold me to it:p

[wuggle]

... God spoke to my heart ...

 

I'm confused, how can a heart listen, it doesn't have audio receptors ? if you 'heard' it with your ears what does he\she sound like ? If you only 'heard' the voice in your head, without the assistant of any receptoprs, is a more likely explanation that the words themselves originated there without them being from an omnipotent, omnipresent God ?

 

Do you actually believe that this 'God' who made many billions of people, trillions of animals and billions of other worlds made a special case and decided to speak to you personally ? given the astronomical numbers involved would he not be better speaking to the people who don't believe in him (I'm pretty sure if I heard the voice of God I would believe).

[quickjoe]

I'm pretty sure it's just a turn of phrase that roughly translates to "deep down I know this", which is in itself just a translation of "I really really want this to be true".

[OpenBook]

For something to exist or occur, does NOT depend on your understanding of it. Leave her alone!

[quickjoe]

I can't argue with that in isolation, reality is what it is regardless of our opinions. However, understanding is important, otherwise a person is just making things up. Made up claims are not useful, even if they can be right by accident, or right for the wrong reasons.

[M30USA]

Pureinheart,

 

Lets stick to the Bible entirely. Human reason is nothing but faulty and limited. It's natural, I admit, to believe that we have control over our destinies. It even makes us feel good. But the Bible just paints another picture. Even at the most, our free will is minimal. Dr. Charles Stanley refers to this as "limited free will". God has certain things he is going to accomplish regardless of what any person or any angel wants. Some of these include the destruction of earth by the flood, the choosing of the nation Israel, the first coming of Christ, the cruxifiction of Christ, mankind's redemption for the predestined, and the second coming of Christ

 

Let's just take one of those examples, the cruxifiction of Christ. How is it possible that we have the following two seemingly-contradictory words by Jesus: 1) He called Judas "Satan" for planning to betray him and even told Judas to hurry up and do what he must do, and 2) He called a disciple "Satan" as well for trying to PREVENT Judas from carrying out his plan of betrayal. This can only leave us with one explanation. Jesus had it predetermined to happen in the exact way at the exact time. And nothing anyone chose to do, or not to do, would get in the way of his plan. If you wanted to stop it, you were called "Satan". If you wanted to cause it to happen, but not in the exact fashion he predetermined, you were also called "Satan". This is just one example of God's complete authority over all things.

 

Do people have free will? You may think you do with human reason. But lets always rest upon the Bible. And we are given a different story.

[TaraMaiden]

For something to exist or occur, does NOT depend on your understanding of it. Leave her alone!

 

 

No, you're right.

It depends on direct evidence, tangible proof and demonstrable definition.

If we do not have these, then for something to exist or occur only in someone's Mind or heart, is very definitely questionable, and a matter of conjecture.

[thatone]

I have to disagree with you on this one, as technology is increasing and spreading all religions/beliefs faster and reaching more people everyday, I would say it will only increase.

 

I do get where you get this notion though as the legal systems are trying to remove/removing God from various institutions like schools and public buildings. At first this disturbed me. Now concerning my own faith, God spoke to my heart and said, "they only think they are removing Me, remember, where sin abounds, grace increases...I'm there and always will be".

 

it only reaches the uneducated. unless there is to be some sort of worldwide education gap that grows with each generation, religion will simply find itself without an audience as time passes.

[KathyM]

Okay, well let this be a disagreement among two people who both follow Christ. I ask you to show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that we chose to follow God. Rather, it always talks of God choosing us. Also implicit in the idea that we choose to follow God is the false idea that humans possess any goodness and knowledge of him at the very outset--an idea which is repeatedly rejected in the Bible. Humans are born "haters of God" until God, entirely on his own and without any doing on our part, has mercy on us and reveals himself through the Holy Spirit to us, and calls us to himself--for his sake, not ours. It's a hard concept to digest. But most of the leading theologians, and even popular pastors such as Dr. John MacArthur, espouse this idea.

 

Please read this section from Romans 9 if you haven't already:

 

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9)

 

God offers us communion with Him--a relationship with Him, but He gives us the choice as to whether or not to follow Him, obviously. That is demonstrated in many parts of the Bible. Here is an article on the subject, which addresses this very well:

What Does the Bible Say About..Free Will?

 

 

Does man have free will to be a believer in God? How can man be saved? Can man accept God and be a believer or does God have to approach man?

Answer

 

 

Man certainly has free will. Otherwise God would be unjust to choose some to be saved and others to be lost based just on his whim. The problem with those who say that once a person is saved he cannot lose his salvation is that such a doctrine necessarily requires the belief that man does not have free will. I have addressed that part of the question at What Does the Bible Say About..Once Saved, Always Saved?

Logically, one could argue that it makes no sense for God to give commandments to men if they have no choice in following them or not. One could not sin, because sin implies a choice to obey. If one has no choice but to violate a command, then logic says they can not be held accountable for the sin. But that is logic, not scripture. Fortunately, the scriptures also say man has free will.

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” (Proverbs 3:31)

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) (If we had no choice, then knowing to do good would necessarily result in doing good.)

There are other passages as well, but these should suffice to show that man can make choices. The idea proposed by John Calvin that one is either destined for salvation or condemnation and must follow that course (“irresistible grace”) without the possibility of change just doesn’t take these scriptures into account.

I have never figured out why Presbyterians and many Baptists try to teach people about the gospel. If they believe that those God has chosen for salvation will necessarily come to obey the gospel, they don’t need to preach to them; God will see that they learn the truth some other way. If they believe that those God has chosen for condemnation can not do good, then it is a waste of time to teach them because they could never obey.

For how man can be saved, see my answer at What Does the Bible Say About..Salvation?God has approached man by offering a savior for sin. Now it is up to man to accept that offering. We must approach God in the way that he has designated, in response to his approaching us. It’s a mutual thing, except God came the farthest in his approach to man.[sIZE=2][COLOR=black]

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[pureinheart]

I'm confused, how can a heart listen, it doesn't have audio receptors ? if you 'heard' it with your ears what does he\she sound like ? If you only 'heard' the voice in your head, without the assistant of any receptoprs, is a more likely explanation that the words themselves originated there without them being from an omnipotent, omnipresent God ?

 

Do you actually believe that this 'God' who made many billions of people, trillions of animals and billions of other worlds made a special case and decided to speak to you personally ? given the astronomical numbers involved would he not be better speaking to the people who don't believe in him (I'm pretty sure if I heard the voice of God I would believe).

 

I'll try to explain this as best as possible.

 

No, the word "heart" in both Greek and Hebrew culture is representative for core, ultimate intention.

 

No, it was God.

 

We are all special to God and have the ability to hear Him if we choose.

Edited June 16, 2012 by pureinheart

[wuggle]

I'll try to explain this as best as possible.

 

Thanks, I have been struggling with this and many similar religous issues all my life.

 

We are all special to God and have the ability to hear Him if we choose.

 

So he speaks to everyone then ? does he do this at the same time ? That must make him\her pretty confused surely, having over 7 billion simultaneous conversations (with a high percentage of the recipients not even listening). Would it not make more sense (him being god) if he sub-divided himself into seven billion entities so that he could have a separate conversation with each person. Then we could all have our own individual God as it were.

 

Or does he just say the same thing and expect each of the seven billion humans to hear and understand it ? if so what langauge does he speak in that 7 billion people are expected to understand ? English?, Yiddish (that would explain why I can't understand it I suppose) If that is the case then surely the advice from the omnipotent can't be the same for all of the seven billion people, but then it would have to be.

 

Still confused. Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much

 

p.s, you seem convinced god is a him, did he tell you this ?

[Yamaha]

We are all special to God and have the ability to hear Him if we choose.

 

 

 

God has spoken to me as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

|

[pureinheart]

Pureinheart,

 

Lets stick to the Bible entirely. Human reason is nothing but faulty and limited. It's natural, I admit, to believe that we have control over our destinies. It even makes us feel good. But the Bible just paints another picture. Even at the most, our free will is minimal. Dr. Charles Stanley refers to this as "limited free will". God has certain things he is going to accomplish regardless of what any person or any angel wants. Some of these include the destruction of earth by the flood, the choosing of the nation Israel, the first coming of Christ, the cruxifiction of Christ, mankind's redemption for the predestined, and the second coming of Christ

 

Let's just take one of those examples, the cruxifiction of Christ. How is it possible that we have the following two seemingly-contradictory words by Jesus: 1) He called Judas "Satan" for planning to betray him and even told Judas to hurry up and do what he must do, and 2) He called a disciple "Satan" as well for trying to PREVENT Judas from carrying out his plan of betrayal. This can only leave us with one explanation. Jesus had it predetermined to happen in the exact way at the exact time. And nothing anyone chose to do, or not to do, would get in the way of his plan. If you wanted to stop it, you were called "Satan". If you wanted to cause it to happen, but not in the exact fashion he predetermined, you were also called "Satan". This is just one example of God's complete authority over all things.

 

Do people have free will? You may think you do with human reason. But lets always rest upon the Bible. And we are given a different story.

 

It's because of free will that all of the things you mention (bold) have to take place, also there is consequence to sin. I'll address the Second Coming of Jesus: Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. This is literal interpretation. All mention is Divine Intervention in operation and not a lack of free will.

 

Jesus called Judas "Satan" because he was then posessed by "satan" as stated by John 13:27 When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you're going to do." Because Judas was posessed by Satan, Jesus was speaking to Satan.

 

Personally I don't agree that the intent of Predestination Theology is speaking of having no free will with us all being puppets, I think it refers God knowing all things

 

I don't disagree with the fact that God has complete authority.

[pureinheart]

Thanks, I have been struggling with this and many similar religous issues all my life.

 

My last reply was abrupt because I hit the "submit" button by accident, so had to edit and didn't finish, then was sidetracked:o

 

 

 

So he speaks to everyone then ? does he do this at the same time ? That must make him\her pretty confused surely, having over 7 billion simultaneous conversations (with a high percentage of the recipients not even listening). Would it not make more sense (him being god) if he sub-divided himself into seven billion entities so that he could have a separate conversation with each person. Then we could all have our own individual God as it were.

 

The best answer I can give is God is omnipresent: Psalm 139:7

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? I would say what you are describing concerning having our own individual God, would be faiths that operate in "self". I've never read in the Bible that there is subdivision, so have to go back to omnipresence.

 

 

Or does he just say the same thing and expect each of the seven billion humans to hear and understand it ? if so what langauge does he speak in that 7 billion people are expected to understand ? English?, Yiddish (that would explain why I can't understand it I suppose) If that is the case then surely the advice from the omnipotent can't be the same for all of the seven billion people, but then it would have to be.

 

No, He speaks to the individuals need. Whatever language they speak.

 

Still confused. Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much

 

p.s, you seem convinced god is a him, did he tell you this ?

 

I'm convinced that God is a "he" because the Bible is very gender specific.

 

You know, how all this takes place like God being everywhere boggles my mind too, it's one of those things that I trust. God has "spoken" to me in many different forms like, through other people, meaning they will tell me something that I know for a fact I needed to hear or a confirmation to a spiritual/life question. He has spoken to me through circumstances, through miracles and will give me insight at times concerning others.

 

I've been told that He has a still, small voice...not with a hardhead like me, He has to speak real loud most of the time:D. I've heard that He does speak audibly, but I can't confirm that. I have heard in my heart and mind His voice as a male...sometimes soft spoken and sometimes Divine Woodshed tones. He also speaks through dreams and visions.

 

I really hope this makes sense, as I've never put this into words before without being right in front of the person this is being communicated to.

 

God comes to us where we are at IMO:)

[wuggle]

I have never heard voices in my head, either satan's or god's. I am therefore left with only the option of using my intellect to figure things out for myself. In doing so, I come to the conclusion that god & satan do not exist. As god gave me this intellect, why does using it lead me to the conclusion he doesn't exist ? why would god want me to not use the greatest gift he gave mankind and simply 'believe' that he exists ?

[KathyM]

No, you're right.

It depends on direct evidence, tangible proof and demonstrable definition.

If we do not have these, then for something to exist or occur only in someone's Mind or heart, is very definitely questionable, and a matter of conjecture.

We've had this discussion before. Something either exists or it doesn't. The fact that there is no current proof that satisfies some people of its existence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Christians believe that the proof of Christ's existence is the eye witness accounts of His diciples. Scientists make new discoveries all the time. Does that mean that because people don't currently know about the existence of something, that it does not exist? No, they just don't know about it yet. There currently exists some things that we don't have the capacity or body of knowledge yet to prove. Someday, you will get the proof that you are asking for, and that proof will not be deniable by anyone.

[pureinheart]

I have never heard voices in my head, either satan's or god's. I am therefore left with only the option of using my intellect to figure things out for myself. In doing so, I come to the conclusion that god & satan do not exist. As god gave me this intellect, why does using it lead me to the conclusion he doesn't exist ? why would god want me to not use the greatest gift he gave mankind and simply 'believe' that he exists ?

 

To me, this is the important thing right here, to be undecided is an awkward place to be in:) awesome:)

[quickjoe]

Christians believe that the proof of Christ's existence is the eye witness accounts of His diciples.

The problem is that it's not an argument you actually accept, because it just as easily works for other religions which you don't believe in.

 

So, it comes down to something else.

 

Someday, you will get the proof that you are asking for, and that proof will not be deniable by anyone.

Or, just as likely, the disproof. That's the problem with making assertions of fact without evidence: you're more likely to be wrong than right. In the meantime, any form of certainty is unjustified, and the only "correct" and honest answer is "I don't know, so let's try to find out."

[M30USA]

One thing I always found interesting--and somewhat humorous--was when Christ was offered a person's testimony or allegiance, he declined it because it said "he did not need the testimony of man because he knew what was in man". No offense, but God doesn't need our pathetic testimony. He does what he wants and doesn't owe anyone an explanation. God isn't subject to our "proof".

[KathyM]

The problem is that it's not an argument you actually accept, because it just as easily works for other religions which you don't believe in.

 

So, it comes down to something else.

 

 

Or, just as likely, the disproof. That's the problem with making assertions of fact without evidence: you're more likely to be wrong than right. In the meantime, any form of certainty is unjustified, and the only "correct" and honest answer is "I don't know, so let's try to find out."

I venture to say, no argument I can give you will convince you of anything. You have your mind made up, have hardened your heart, and closed your eyes to the possibility that something may exist (God), which you currently cannot perceive with your own limited senses. 1/3 of the world's population do accept the diciples' eye witness accounts as proof. That is proof enough for me, but as I have said before, I have plenty of proof for my satisfaction from the miracles and answers to prayer in my own life and the lives of people I know. That's proof enough for me.