When good people have affairs

[Owl]

Bummer...I was interested in hearing an answer on how to determine "good" vs "bad" without watching someone's choices/actions as the key factor.

 

Crickets instead... /sigh

[confusedinkansas]

Sorry

All I'm saying is that just because I've had an affair it does not make me a bad person.

 

I've made some bad choices in my adult life - None of which makes me a bad person.

 

A decision/choice or whatever you want to call it, like this, does not DEFINE the person.

 

(only speaking for me - I'm sure others feel the very same way)

 

Other bad choices (murder for instance) I'd say that does make you a bad person. Taking another human life is beyond forgivable. Affairs are NOT the same thing - or even in the same ballpark

Edited November 29, 2011 by confusedinkansas

[Owl]

Sorry

All I'm saying is that just because I've had an affair it does not make me a bad person.

 

I've made some bad choices in my adult life - None of which makes me a bad person.

 

A decision/choice or whatever you want to call it, like this, does not DEFINE the person.

 

(only speaking for me - I'm sure others feel the very same way)

 

Other bad choices (murder for instance) I'd say that does make you a bad person. Taking another human life is beyond forgivable. Affairs are NOT the same thing - or even in the same ballpark

 

I get your point.

 

But here's a thought, and it's kind of tied to my comment earlier about changing your values/morals as a result of successfully engaging in an act that most people would consider as "bad".

 

You don't feel that someone who cheats on their spouse is "bad".

 

Many other people do feel that they would be considered "bad".

 

The key differentiator here seems to be that you've engaged (successfully) in that behavior, whereas most of the others who don't agree with you haven't.

 

For you...cheating isn't "bad enough" to label someone as bad...but other things are.

 

Makes you wonder where someone who engages in those "bad enough" behaviors (by your view) would draw the line as "bad enough" at, doesn't it?

[wheelwright]

They may just be nice people to be around. That's a choice too.

 

A BS who has been hurt may understandably not be a nice person to be around.

 

Is that a bad choice that makes them immoral?

Edited November 29, 2011 by wheelwright

[donnamaybe]

Wow. THAT'S a stretch!

 

Now my sister is someone who is a good person but isn't nice to be around.

[Owl]

Yeah...I couldn't follow that logic either.

 

I guess this begs the question to WW...are you defining a "bad person" as someone who is unpleasant to be around?

 

That's what it sounds like to me.

[wheelwright]

Yeah...I couldn't follow that logic either.

 

I guess this begs the question to WW...are you defining a "bad person" as someone who is unpleasant to be around?

 

That's what it sounds like to me.

 

Bless me, but I had you and DM as people who read between the lines...

 

I don't define a bad person at all. Far be it from me....

 

The logic is, if we can say someone is a bad character for a snapshot of choices, albeit a long exposure (so to speak), then we are all in a lot of trouble.

 

Everything in life that triggers you to behave 'badly' (perhaps an A?), including anger, distrust, revenge, hatred, being grumpy, unreasonable, mildly unpleasant etc., would be relevant. It's still a choice, no? To respond?

 

I guess it's a cast the first stone argument - an oldie but a goodie

Edited November 30, 2011 by wheelwright

[bentnotbroken]

Bless me, but I had you and DM as people who read between the lines...

 

I don't define a bad person at all. Far be it from me....

 

The logic is, if we can say someone is a bad character for a snapshot of choices, albeit a long exposure (so to speak), then we are all in a lot of trouble.

 

Everything in life that triggers you to behave 'badly' (perhaps an A?), including anger, distrust, revenge, hatred, being grumpy, unreasonable, mildly unpleasant etc., would be relevant. It's still a choice, no? To respond?

 

I guess it's a cast the first stone argument - an oldie but a goodie

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

[SoMovinOn]

My apologies, SMO, for thinking your W wasn't aware of your cheating (if one can call it that - more an open M IMO).

 

I call it separated but still living in the same house.

 

 

Have you told her, as you stated was going to happen sooner than later - not months, but weeks and possibly days - in a post back in July, that she needed to move out and you were getting a D?

 

Oh yeah. She's known that for 2 years now. She'd be gone if she had somewhere to go. She's so screwed up in so many ways right now... trying to fix one thing so she can fix another, but it's a viscous circle in many instances. She knows I won't kick her out. I wouldn't, not in her condition, not with everything she's dealing with. She does try my patience at times. If she could be gone tomorrow, I would love that.

 

I guess I mistakenly thought you were of the "cheat but never let the spouse know" type because you so vehemently declare that others doing so are still "good people."

 

My W right now... I would never have cheated on her. Although she chose not to tell me when she cheated (she could have), although she did everything the worst possible way... I don't think she is a "bad person". In addition to knowing what someone did, I think you need to understand "Why". It doesn't make it OK. It doesn't make what they did not bad, but it goes a long way in determining if the person is a "bad person" or not.

 

My GF... I understand why she is cheating on her H with me. Knowing the "why", and knowing her, I don't think it makes her a "bad person". I do think she could do it differently, better... and I understand why she hasn't. I'd concede you could say I am biased in this case, but, I know I am pretty good at seeing things as they are, even when doing so is unpleasant.

 

Overall though, I'm just working my way back to what I've already said, I don't think I (or anyone else) can fairly or accurately judge someone is good or bad without knowing them overall, without knowing their motivations. There's even a saying that puts more succinctly: "You can't judge a book by its cover"

 

Simply knowing someone is or was involved in an A is not anywhere near enough information to judge them as anything other than someone who is involved in an A.

[SoMovinOn]

We add in complexity in an effort to rationalize/obfuscate/avoid looking at our own motivations too closely.

 

Same thing for "grey thinking".

 

It's only grey if that shade is what works best for you...specifically as it relates to your own situation/motivations. It lets you feel better about yourself when you conduct actions that are "less than white".

 

 

Shades of grey speak to motivations, easily seen in the legal system, where motivation often dictates the level of the offense (or even deems it not an offense at all). People who only see black and white see only the action, while ignoring the motivations for the action.

 

Some things are black and white. Most things are not.

[SoMovinOn]

There really is nothing all that complex about relationships. You either use good behavior in your dealings and discussions with your partner which will allow the R to flourish, or you use lousy behavior in your dealings and discussions with your partner which will cause the R to wither and die.

 

I won't make any assumptions here Donna, so, let me ask...

 

Do you believe if a person uses good behavior, does all the right things, never does anything wrong, that will assure them of a good relationship?

 

 

Also, conflict resolution can be approached with love and an expectation that your partner wants to resolve the problem to the satisfaction of all concerned...

 

Asking for clarification again...

 

Do you think of all the people involved in A's (50% or more of all married people), none of them have attempted conflict resolution with love and an expectation their spouse wants to resolve the conflict in a like manner?

 

Do you think of all the people involved in A's, none of them have gone to great lengths to engage their spouse in any manner possible, and, having failed in every attempt, then gone on to have an A?

 

Is it only the WS that is the problem in the M? Always?

[SoMovinOn]

Yep...and who gives a damn if the person you were married to comes through in one piece too. Not your problem, right?

 

Who gives a damn? There is no across the board answer. Some people do, some people don't.

 

*I* do. I would love nothing more than for my W to move on from this and be happy, loved, in love, and have the most wonderful life possible.

 

My GF would. She has no ill will towards her H. He is a different person from the man she M. She would love nothing more than for him to find happiness and love in his life.

 

I can't answer for anyone else, but we could certainly put up a poll. Would it be a simple yes/no question? "Do you care what happens to your spouse as a result of your A?"

 

Other than cases where there is abuse, I'd bet most people do care.

[SoMovinOn]

If making bad choices doesn't define a "bad person"...what does???

 

Choices/actions reflect the character/morals of the person making them.

 

If you can't determine it based off of the person's actions/choices...what DO you use to determine their values/moral compass?

 

Motivation.

 

At least, that's what the legal system uses. Not "Did they make a bad choice?", but rather "Why did they make the choice they made?"

 

Shades of grey are involved.

[SoMovinOn]

Bummer...I was interested in hearing an answer on how to determine "good" vs "bad" without watching someone's choices/actions as the key factor.

 

Crickets instead... /sigh

 

You gave it a whole hour!

[MissBee]

Thought I'd add in...I don't believe that humans nor their relationships are all that complex, either.

 

On the contrary...human interactions are really pretty basic. Pretty easy to understand when you stop and examine the underlying motivations.

 

We're simple critters.

 

We do things to either get something we want, or avoid something that we don't like.

 

We add in complexity in an effort to rationalize/obfuscate/avoid looking at our own motivations too closely.

Same thing for "grey thinking".

 

It's only grey if that shade is what works best for you...specifically as it relates to your own situation/motivations. It lets you feel better about yourself when you conduct actions that are "less than white".

 

Quite so....

 

Agree.

[SoMovinOn]

You don't feel that someone who cheats on their spouse is "bad".

 

Many other people do feel that they would be considered "bad".

 

The key differentiator here seems to be that you've engaged (successfully) in that behavior, whereas most of the others who don't agree with you haven't.

 

For you...cheating isn't "bad enough" to label someone as bad...but other things are.

 

Perhaps that's where the split is. I don't need to engage in any given bad behavior in order to look at someone who has, and still not label them bad based on that single behavior.

 

I know someone who killed a man. He claimed it was self defense and took a plea bargain to serve 18 months in prison. I know him well enough that I was able to determine exactly what happened and why (and it's not what he told the cops). Knowing all the details of how and why it happened, and knowing him, I know he's not a bad person (and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would say he is). I've never killed anyone, yet, I can see all that.

 

I don't think it's a matter of engaging in a bad act that allows one to see beyond the act, I think it's just a matter of choice. Consider, people are usually more forgiving of someone they love and care about than they are of a stranger. Why? Because they choose to be.

[SoMovinOn]

Man... I hope the author of this book gets half the action in sales as what's been inspired here!

 

Good discussion!

[findingnemo]

I'm enjoying this thread as I like intellectual discussions. But It seems to be going off-topic at times. I may be wrong but let me add some spice to this:

 

Without exception, you all don't have black and white thinking. I'd go further and say that NONE of you are black and white about individual cheaters either. I know this because you post specific responses to OPs and take into account what's happened in their cases. I haven't seen any of you tell someone who's had no sex for 6 years that they are a bad person. There are plenty of other examples.

 

Yes, cheating is a bad thing but the question at hand is whether or not a good person can cheat.

 

The only people that are true black and white thinkers in this world are fundamentalists of some sort. They target a group and create laws to keep them in check and are also very creative about enforcement. Disabled babies are killed because they are "not whole", adulterers are stoned, young girls who lose their virginity before they are M are killed in "honor", baby girls aborted, pre-teen girls mutilated to curb any future straying that may arise...

 

No matter how much we argue, we seem to be confusing two things.

 

Good people cheat (as the book title seems to imply) vs. Cheating is done by good people (which seems to be what we keep getting into a discussion about). Which is true? Both, none, one of them?

 

I hope this not a t/j but it seems to me that there are two separate notions being discussed here.

[frozensprouts]

I'm enjoying this thread as I like intellectual discussions. But It seems to be going off-topic at times. I may be wrong but let me add some spice to this:

 

Without exception, you all don't have black and white thinking. I'd go further and say that NONE of you are black and white about individual cheaters either. I know this because you post specific responses to OPs and take into account what's happened in their cases. I haven't seen any of you tell someone who's had no sex for 6 years that they are a bad person. There are plenty of other examples.

 

Yes, cheating is a bad thing but the question at hand is whether or not a good person can cheat.

 

The only people that are true black and white thinkers in this world are fundamentalists of some sort. They target a group and create laws to keep them in check and are also very creative about enforcement. Disabled babies are killed because they are "not whole", adulterers are stoned, young girls who lose their virginity before they are M are killed in "honor", baby girls aborted, pre-teen girls mutilated to curb any future straying that may arise...

 

No matter how much we argue, we seem to be confusing two things.

 

Good people cheat (as the book title seems to imply) vs. Cheating is done by good people (which seems to be what we keep getting into a discussion about). Which is true? Both, none, one of them?

 

I hope this not a t/j but it seems to me that there are two separate notions being discussed here.

 

there are some people who are black and white thinkers simply because that's the way their brains are "wired"...my daughter and son are like that- it's part of their autism spectrum disorders. There's no middle ground...something is either right or wrong, black or white, on or off. If you ever wat to see true "black and white thinking", try talking to someone like that.

 

This may sound weird, but perhaps it's not the act of "cheating" in and of itself that is wrong, but it's more the lying that is associated with it. To use the example of someone who hasn't had sex for six years, if they came to their spouse and said " i can't take it anymore...i need sex and since you won't provide it, I will look elsewhere". While the fact that their spouse was having sex with someone else may be very painful, there wouldn't be the added dimension of deception involved. But most people who cheat would choose to lie rather than be honest about it, and will come up with an awful lot of reasons to rationalize why the lying is okay. The lie to their spouses, to the children, to their families, and also to themselves. They hurt their spouses, children and often also the person they are cheating with, for no higher motive than it allows them to engage in behavior that they find gratifying, and then the compound the hurt by lying.

 

i really do believe that cheating is a "bad' act as it hurts an awful lot of people because of he lying etc. I also think that someone who is otherwise a "good" person can cheat, but the fact that they are otherwise "good" does not negate the harm their cheating does.

 

In my own case, I think my husband is a "good guy", but he did cheat on me, and when he did, he wasn't acting like a "good guy" at all ...his behavior changed and he started acting in some pretty nasty ways ( seem a lot of people who cheat get like that- not sure why-maybe it's the lying, etc., I don't know). I don't think he's a bad guy now, but while he was cheating, he was, and he was also a "messed up guy". He's worked really hard to find out why and to overcome that, and I know it hasn't been easy for him and i respect all the work he's done.

 

I guess it shows the human capacity to change and grow and learn...we can all be better people if we allow ourselves to be

[donnamaybe]

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I know, huh?! I guess there IS no such thing as a "bad person." So much for Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy or Vlad the Impaler. I know, I know. Cheaters and murderers aren't on the same level, but who gets to decide what level suddenly becomes "bad" or how many times does one keep up the same "bad" behavior before they are considered not good?

 

I have seen folks with remorse or guilt feelings on this forum, but they are struggling. I get that, and I address them thusly.

 

I also see folks with a very cavalier attitude who very plainly state they don't care who they hurt as long as they get what they want at any given moment the mood strikes them or that, even though they saw the hurt they inflicted on their spouse, would cheat again. BAD - IMO, of course.

[donnamaybe]

I won't make any assumptions here Donna, so, let me ask...

 

Do you believe if a person uses good behavior, does all the right things, never does anything wrong, that will assure them of a good relationship?

Of course not. But THEN how do they deal with the situation? Lie and sneak around, or deal with it with honesty? When you get married there IS the possibility that it won't last forever. Everyone knows divorce happens often these days. If they aren't prepared for that possibility, they shouldn't get married in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Asking for clarification again...

 

Do you think of all the people involved in A's (50% or more of all married people), none of them have attempted conflict resolution with love and an expectation their spouse wants to resolve the conflict in a like manner?

I'm sure many of them haven't. Some people either don't know or don't care to use positive verbal skills in dealing with their partner. Something pisses them off, and they come out swinging. Then, when they can't bully their partner into their "my way or the highway" methods, they run off and do whatever to "get back at" their spouse so they can feel superior.

 

Do you think of all the people involved in A's, none of them have gone to great lengths to engage their spouse in any manner possible, and, having failed in every attempt, then gone on to have an A?

 

Is it only the WS that is the problem in the M? Always?

Of course it's not always the WS who is the problem in the M, but it IS always the WS who is lying and sneaking around. If the WS has issues with their spouse, obviously the spouse isn't hiding whatever it is that is pissing off the WS. They are honestly being a pain in the arse. However, once again, should one take the low road and deal in a PA and sneaky, deceitful manner just because it's easier? I'm sure glad my parents didn't just take the easy route when tough times hit. I have no idea where all my siblings and I would be today if they had.

[confusedinkansas]

Of course it's not always the WS who is the problem in the M, but it IS always the WS who is lying and sneaking around. If the WS has issues with their spouse, obviously the spouse isn't hiding whatever it is that is pissing off the WS. They are honestly being a pain in the arse. However, once again, should one take the low road and deal in a PA and sneaky, deceitful manner just because it's easier? I'm sure glad my parents didn't just take the easy route when tough times hit. I have no idea where all my siblings and I would be today if they had.

Oh Dear.........Not Again!!!

 

1st of all there are more ways than I could count to destroy a marriage.

As for the sneaking around. NO it's not ALWAYS the WS that is doing the sneaking & lying. Sometimes the 'BS' is lying & sneaking around as well. AND I don't mean having an affair either.

 

How about the BS (& I use those initials loosely) that is lying about their whereabouts during any given day? How about the "BS" that lies about spending money? How about the 'WS' that refuses to get a job? Obviously I could go on & on.

How about the "BS" that sticks their head in the sand every single time the "WS" (another loose label) tries to speak with them about anything besides the weather?

 

I will never understand how some of you think. You believe that the world should just be SO SIMPLE. When you deal with as many personalities as there are snowflakes - it is not simple. Relationships are not simple. They're hard at times. They're easy at times. Yes, we all would wish that our lives could be like a Norman Rockwell painting. Sorry to say.....They just aren't.

[donnamaybe]

Oh Dear.........Not Again!!!

 

1st of all there are more ways than I could count to destroy a marriage.

As for the sneaking around. NO it's not ALWAYS the WS that is doing the sneaking & lying. Sometimes the 'BS' is lying & sneaking around as well. AND I don't mean having an affair either.

 

How about the BS (& I use those initials loosely) that is lying about their whereabouts during any given day? How about the "BS" that lies about spending money? How about the 'WS' that refuses to get a job? Obviously I could go on & on.

How about the "BS" that sticks their head in the sand every single time the "WS" (another loose label) tries to speak with them about anything besides the weather?

 

I will never understand how some of you think. You believe that the world should just be SO SIMPLE. When you deal with as many personalities as there are snowflakes - it is not simple. Relationships are not simple. They're hard at times. They're easy at times. Yes, we all would wish that our lives could be like a Norman Rockwell painting. Sorry to say.....They just aren't.

Oh Dear.........Not Again!!!

 

First off, I NEVER said a BS never sneaks around. I did say the WS ALWAYS does, and when there is someone hiding an A that is true. End of story. Please read for content dear.

 

Second of all, whether you like it or not, some of us think just fine. We just don't think like you which, according to the above post, seems to be some sort of sin. If you think my life has been some kind of "Normal Rockwell painting" think again. I have left two marriages. My first H was very open about disregarding me after the new wore off. He knows now, after having earned a degree which included studies in psychology, where he screwed up. We are very good friends. My second H is still, to this day, a selfish prick. He never cheated, but he was selfish - even toward his own child. He hid that well before the ring went on. Sure kept his eye on the prize, that one, but I wasn't stupid enough to not have him sign a prenup, having earned quite a few years of a retirement income by that point. See how I prepared for the possibilities I spoke of? Norman Rockwell? No. Smart and prepared just in case? Yes.

 

Now I have a man who actually cares about the greater good. Yes, I'm lucky in that sense. But easy? Hell no. A person garners a LOT of baggage by our ages, and we were no exception. It took us awhile to work through some issues we both had, but with lots of dialogue we are now at a point where we are both happy and feel completely safe with each other, and yes – life is extremely good. Were there points I might have cheated along the way to assuage some hurt feelings? Hell yes! Did I? Hell no! Did we take the easy road to our feel good places? No. Was it worth the effort HELL YES!

[Owl]

Motivation.

 

At least, that's what the legal system uses. Not "Did they make a bad choice?", but rather "Why did they make the choice they made?"

 

Shades of grey are involved.

 

I have to disagree.

 

Motivations don't always define a "bad" or "good" person. Some of the most heinous acts in history have been committed by people who felt that they were motivated to do the right thing.

 

Some of the greatest advances we've made in science and medicine occurred by some of the blackest-hearted individuals this planet has ever seen, using methods (read:actions) that have been denounced by virtually every person who's ever heard of them.

 

Had any of these people gone to trial...their "positive" or "negative" motivations would have been moot...they would have stood trial for their ACTIONS...and ultimately judged by what they had actually done far more than what their motivations were.

[nofool4u]

I will never understand how some of you think.

 

Thats because you are a cheater, and we are not.