Your view on male virginity vs male use of prostitution

[AHardDaysNight]

I'd like to make a statement, and I think it has some substance:

 

Women who reject men because they are virgins, don't respect men on the same level that men who sleep with prostitutes don't respect women.

 

Now think before you respond to this statement. Is it factually correct? Is there some truth to it?

 

Hasn't this statement been proven directly in this very thread?

[Metis]

I think the problem we are having here is that we are comparing apples with oranges.

 

If a woman learns that a man she is interested in has been using prostitutes, it is what it is, the end of the matter. She can wave it off, get past it, or decide that she can't live with something like that and end the relationship.

 

However, if a woman learns that a man she is interested in is a virgin, at an age where virginity is unusual, the most predictable reaction is surprise and an understandable question "why". After all, unlike in the case with prostitutes, the possible reasons for virginity run the gamut from innocuous to extremely troubling. Depending on the man's age, possibilities include: (1) he's an extreme religious fundamentalist (turn-off); (2) he's got a very low libido (turn-off); (3) he has a weird, clintonesque definition of sex, where fellatio, or anal, or doing it with men doesn't "count" (turn-off, at least on account of the hypocrisy); (4) he's got an intense fear of women and fear of sex that will translate into an awkward and unsatisfying sex life; (5) he has a Madonna/Whore dilemma, where he can't get it up for a woman he actually respects, but doesn't want to be with a woman that he considers unworthy of respect. All of the above, by the way, would be a bigger problem as far as I were concerned than a man's history of consorting with prostitutes, notwithstanding that the latter would also be a big turn-off. So it's not virginity itself that makes women wince -- it's the possibilities it raises, and the likely reasons.

[Floridaman]

I'd like to make a statement, and I think it has some substance:

Women who reject men because they are virgins, don't respect men on the same level that men who sleep with prostitutes don't respect women.

Now think before you respond to this statement. Is it factually correct? Is there some truth to it?

 

Hasn't this statement been proven directly in this very thread?

Get Back,

You really think a virgin man (or woman) is in the same universe as something as (socially) disreputable as a prostitute?

[somedude81]

I'd like to make a statement, and I think it has some substance:

 

 

 

Now think before you respond to this statement. Is it factually correct? Is there some truth to it?

 

Hasn't this statement been proven directly in this very thread?

Of all the reasons to reject a man, him being a virgin is one of the least common. It's also pretty important.

 

Unless you're telling girls that you're a virgin before you ask them out, they aren't rejecting you because of what you are.

[Floridaman]

All of the above, by the way, would be a bigger problem as far as I were concerned than a man's history of consorting with prostitutes, notwithstanding that the latter would also be a big turn-off. So it's not virginity itself that makes women wince -- it's the possibilities it raises, and the likely reasons.

 

Really?

Someone paying for sex, possibly contracting STDs, or any other number of wrong actions, that's somehow BETTER than a clean, STD-free virgin man (or woman)?

[fortyninethousand322]

I think the problem we are having here is that we are comparing apples with oranges.

 

If a woman learns that a man she is interested in has been using prostitutes, it is what it is, the end of the matter. She can wave it off, get past it, or decide that she can't live with something like that and end the relationship.

 

However, if a woman learns that a man she is interested in is a virgin, at an age where virginity is unusual, the most predictable reaction is surprise and an understandable question "why". After all, unlike in the case with prostitutes, the possible reasons for virginity run the gamut from innocuous to extremely troubling. Depending on the man's age, possibilities include: (1) he's an extreme religious fundamentalist (turn-off); (2) he's got a very low libido (turn-off); (3) he has a weird, clintonesque definition of sex, where fellatio, or anal, or doing it with men doesn't "count" (turn-off, at least on account of the hypocrisy); (4) he's got an intense fear of women and fear of sex that will translate into an awkward and unsatisfying sex life; (5) he has a Madonna/Whore dilemma, where he can't get it up for a woman he actually respects, but doesn't want to be with a woman that he considers unworthy of respect. All of the above, by the way, would be a bigger problem as far as I were concerned than a man's history of consorting with prostitutes, notwithstanding that the latter would also be a big turn-off. So it's not virginity itself that makes women wince -- it's the possibilities it raises, and the likely reasons.

 

Just out of curiosity, at what age would you find a virgin man to be unusual?

 

And I think the most common reason for a man to remain a virgin is shyness. It doesn't have to be crippling shyness or social anxiety, just general shyness.

[Metis]

Really?

Someone paying for sex, possibly contracting STDs, or any other number of wrong actions, that's somehow BETTER than a clean, STD-free virgin man (or woman)?

 

I thought I explained it when I listed some of the possibilities that virginity raises. A "virgin" who is one only in the most academic sense may have STD's. Besides, while STD's are bad, they represent a problem more easily solved than severe and extreme religious beliefs, sexual dysfunction or psychological hangups. And, while being sexually active raises one's risk of contracting an STD regardless of precautions, celibacy for the purpose of safety represents a means too radical and burdensome when weighed against the risk being addressed; it's sort of like undergoing a hysterectomy to avoid the risk of pregnancy.

 

As for "any other number of wrong actions" -- I think that whether we are talking about male or female virgins, it's a big mistake to associate virginity with moral purity. A virgin is just as capable of cruelty, abuse, hypocrisy and any number of moral wrongs as someone who is sexually active or even exploits another for sex. And, not to sound like a 17th-century "Ranter", but a virgin isn't by definition "clean" in my opinion, just like sex in and of itself isn't dirty.

 

Just out of curiosity, at what age would you find a virgin man to be unusual?

 

Well, obviously, it's a range, and it depends on all the attendant circumstances -- but people here have been talking about 40-year-old virgins.

 

And I think the most common reason for a man to remain a virgin is shyness. It doesn't have to be crippling shyness or social anxiety, just general shyness.

 

Again, depends on the circumstances. I think given access to members of the opposite sex, most men's libido is stronger than their general shyness. This is not to say general shyness can never be the reason, but I don't think it's unreasonable to consider other possibilities.

[Floridaman]

Regarding virgins being "oddballs" or somehow "lesser" than others bec. they didn't have the same opportunities others have...

 

A friend posted this on another relationship board.

NewWave's a never-married 40 y.o. non-virgin but one that's (now) waiting until a serious relationship before she hops in bed with some guy. She learned the hard way.

I respect this "reborn virgin" for her change of attitude.

 

Methinks she, an experienced lady, wouldn't think less of a virgin man.

 

Does anyone know any older virgins?

http://www.enotalone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355546&p=4464065&viewfull=1#post4464065

QUOTE:

Many older virgins are headcases, I'd suspect most aren't.

In fact I dated virgins and while in many cases I disagreed with their views (deeply religious) they weren't head cases.

 

Just a few of the headcases I dated. None were virgins

btw

.

 

1) Divorced man who thought I was fat because I weighed more than 110 pounds. He'd order a salad for me in the restaurants.

 

2) Another guy (I lived with this loser for sometime) who was never married but bragged about sleeping with over 100 women.

 

Did I mention he forced two girlfriends to get abortions,

was proud that he slept with many hookers

,

told me if I got pregnant I'd better have an abortion or he'd leave me?

 

3) Another guy who had several kids out of wedlock and was proud of this. Didn't date him long at all.

 

4) A couple guys I dated who had kids, previously married but in terrible situations with exes.

 

Notice not one guy was a virgin?

[fortyninethousand322]

Well, obviously, it's a range, and it depends on all the attendant circumstances -- but people here have been talking about 40-year-old virgins.

 

Again, depends on the circumstances. I think given access to members of the opposite sex, most men's libido is stronger than their general shyness. This is not to say general shyness can never be the reason, but I don't think it's unreasonable to consider other possibilities.

 

So, would a 25 year old virgin raise eyebrows? Or a 30 year old? What would be the range you would say?

 

I've heard about that argument: libido vs shyness. But, I wonder can biology really override one's psychology? Or are older virgins simply repressed a-sexuals?

[somedude81]

IMO, most men should loose their virginity by 24 at the latest. Any longer than that and it means that something went wrong.

 

That should have been enough time for him to get over whatever insecurities he might have had.

 

Now I'm not saying this to insult anybody. I'd basically consider myself a 30 year old virgin if I didn't go way out of my way to get laid.

 

As for the asexual thing being a virgin is fine if one truly does not have that desire.

[Metis]

So what's your point, Floridaman? That because some guys who aren't virgins are scumbags, that automatically makes virgins good people? This one's woman perception does not dictate mine or anyone else's. Not being deeply religious myself (or religious at all, in fact), I don't see deeply religious people as suitable partners or even dates. Fundamentalist religions have their own ways of dehumanizing and objectifying people, women especially, and when self-righteous do-gooders start going on about "whores", they don't sound all that different from johns and pimps.

 

1) Divorced man who thought I was fat because I weighed more than 110 pounds. He'd order a salad for me in the restaurants.

 

So? I had a boyfriend who was a virgin, who made me feel so insecure about my weight (I weighed less than 110 pounds) that I became anorexic. There is no logical nexus between virginity and not having unrealistic expectations of women's looks, or not acting like a controlling prick.

 

2) Another guy (I lived with this loser for sometime) who was never married but bragged about sleeping with over 100 women.

 

Did I mention he forced two girlfriends to get abortions, was proud that he slept with many hookers, told me if I got pregnant I'd better have an abortion or he'd leave me?

 

A knew a deeply religious man who expected his wife to be a virgin, but despite professing to be deeply religious, liked to go on and on about all the "floozies" he had slept with before he was ready to "ride fresh snow". Deeply religious people have also been known to have abortions, despite fighting to make it illegal for everyone else. Besides, a man who's slept with 100 women and forces girlfriends to have abortions isn't typical of your garden-variety sexually active man.

 

3) Another guy who had several kids out of wedlock and was proud of this. Didn't date him long at all.

 

Again -- having several kids out of wedlock and being proud of this isn't a standard characteristic of a man who is sexually active.

 

4) A couple guys I dated who had kids, previously married but in terrible situations with exes.

 

So what? That's just life. If you actually live it, you risk failing and getting burned. Having never ski'd doesn't make one a good skier, however. If a person has never been in a serious relationship, that doesn't mean he's good relationship material.

 

Notice not one guy was a virgin?

 

Yes. I also notice now not one guy was an operatic tenor. I guess this proves operatic tenors make the best boyfriends.

[fortyninethousand322]

IMO, most men should loose their virginity by 24 at the latest. Any longer than that and it means that something went wrong.

 

That should have been enough time for him to get over whatever insecurities he might have had.

 

Now I'm not saying this to insult anybody. I'd basically consider myself a 30 year old virgin if I didn't go way out of my way to get laid.

 

As for the asexual thing being a virgin is fine if one truly does not have that desire.

 

Yeah that's pretty much how I feel. Heck, I already feel like something went wrong and I'm 23.

[Woggle]

Being a virgin does not make somebody a scumbag but it does not mean something is wrong with somebody.

 

Also just because some religious people are hypocrites does not mean all people of faith are. I can't stand the religious anymore than anybody else but for some people it is a positive force in their lives. I know people who have gone off of drugs and alcohol for good after turning to god. If this is what helps them live a better life what is wrong with that?

[Floridaman]

IMO, most men should loose their virginity by 24 at the latest. Any longer than that and it means that something went wrong.

 

That should have been enough time for him to get over whatever insecurities he might have had.

 

Now I'm not saying this to insult anybody. I'd basically consider myself a 30 year old virgin if I didn't go way out of my way to get laid.

You're not a virgin only bec. you lost it in a less-noble method, via escorts as you posted.

Still, you've never had a relationship, so you not being a virgin means little.

 

Just bec. you paid some woman doesn't make you "a man" and better than guys that haven't gone that illegitimate route.

 

Can you honestly say stickin' your penis in a whore made you better than you were before?

 

Yeah that's pretty much how I feel. Heck, I already feel like something went wrong and I'm 23.

More wrong thinking.

So what's your point, Floridaman? That because some guys who aren't virgins are scumbags, that automatically makes virgins good people?

The post was to show that not all women have trashy views towards virgin men.

 

And look how those non-virgins treated her so well.

None of them were virgins.....

 

For every supposed shortcoming of some virgin you post, one could post more failings by the non-virgins..

A virgins wouldn't have bragged about how many sluts he slept with, how he visited many prostitutes, abused her, etc.

 

Of course virgins aren't automatically superior to others but your lumping virgins in with DISREPUTABLE PROSTITUTES is ludicrus and laughable.

 

Can't believe some woman would actually post how she'd PREFER having sex with someone whose visited whorehouses, contracted who knows what diseases over someone who's lived his or her life sexually responsible.

 

Says more about the poster's "judgement" than reality.

This one's woman perception does not dictate mine or anyone else's.

Nor should your narrow view on virginity influence these guys who think there's something "wrong" with them.

It may be the opposite with women like you being the REAL oddballs...

 

Not being deeply religious myself (or religious at all, in fact), I don't see deeply religious people as suitable partners or even dates.

More nonsense. And discrimination. Imagine if someone said the same about a particular race.

An overhwhelming majority (70%) of Americans identify themselves as Christians, with a smaller percentage professing other religions such as Jadaism.

 

 

There are many misperceptions out there.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a virgin at any age.

Virgins aren't necessarily better than non-virgins. Those who have had sex aren't automatically superior to the virgins.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Floridaman

[oldguy]

I read here that if someone is still a virgin past a certain age it is evidence that, 'something went wrong'. I have found that in my nearly 30 years of practice that the opposite is often true; there are more often underlining issues relating to promiscuity than with someone who chooses abstinence.

 

I fully understand however being initially guarded when it comes to either extreme but I think it is interesting that we except one more easily than the other; Promiscuity over abstinence, but it is promiscuity that is often the one most linked to underlining issues.

[AHardDaysNight]

What if you didn't even try between the ages of 19 and 23?

 

Because after my high school crush rejected me, I gave up on dating for 4 years.

 

Then I woke up one day, realized all my mates were having sex but me, and felt like a freak. So does that make me different?

[aj22one]

particular race.

An overhwhelming majority (70%) of Americans identify themselves as Christians, with a smaller percentage professing other religions such as Jadaism.

 

Well she did say "deeply religious" which may mean different things to different people. For some it means a person who goes to a very conservative church and promotes abstinence only sex education, and for others it merely means anyone semi-serious about their faith. I don't think everyone can fit well with dating religious people though, it's just a matter of preference.

 

I myself (although nominally a Christian) have always found it easiest to date Muslim women (the current girl I'm dating is one) since we're on the subject of religion. It's not that I actively dislike or hate Christian women, I just have my preferences.

[AHardDaysNight]

I'd say someone who is religious, and doesn't visit a prostitute for that reason (one of the main reasons I haven't), is better than someone who has casual sex.

[oldguy]

Then I woke up one day, relized all my mates were having sex but me, and felt like a freak. So does that make me different?

 

Well it makes you different from your mates obviously but it most certainly does not make you a freak & you should not let others make you feel that way.

 

If, on the other hand you are avoiding relationships because you got your heart broken you need to fix that, but that is the issue not abstinence for it's own sake.

[AHardDaysNight]

Well it makes you different from your mates obviously but it most certainly does not make you a freak & you should not let others make you feel that way.

 

If, on the other hand you are avoiding relationships because you got your heart broken you need to fix that, but that is the issue not abstinence for it's own sake.

 

You know, I never have felt the same way about any other girl as I did about my high school crush, who rejected me when I was 19.

 

I guess I still haven't gotten over her, even almost 10 years later. She's married now, but I keep on hoping she'll dump her husband and come sailing with me.

 

(I know how unhealthy this is, believe me. My therapist has even told me so!)

[aj22one]

I'd say someone who is religious, and doesn't visit a prostitute for that reason (one of the main reasons I haven't), is better than someone who has casual sex.

 

I share your opinion. However, we should let others have theirs as well. After all you wouldn't want to date someone who would prefer you do something out of character just to measure up to their standards now do you?

[oldguy]

You know, I never have felt the same way about any other girl as I did about my high school crush, who rejected me when I was 19.

 

I guess I still haven't gotten over her, even almost 10 years later. She's married now, but I keep on hoping she'll dump her husband and come sailing with me.

 

(I know how unhealthy this is, believe me. My therapist has even told me so!)

 

For what it's worth; Your story is far more common than you probably realize.

 

I hope your not paying your therapist for his opinion. He needs to be helping you with this by giving you constructive exercises & steps or goals. Do you date? (regularly).

[AHardDaysNight]

 

For what it's worth; Your story is far more common than you probably realize.

 

I hope your not paying your therapist for his opinion. He needs to be helping you with this by giving you constructive exercises & steps or goals. Do you date? (regularly).

 

He was trying to get me into online dating, but I was too hesitant and would stop communication with interested girls before it got too far (to the meeting in RL stage.)

 

I believe I have commented on that before.

 

I've never been on a date. Unless you consider a girl friend meeting you for coffee as a date?

[oldguy]

He was trying to get me into online dating, but I was too hesitant and would stop communication with interested girls before it got too far (to the meeting in RL stage.)

 

I believe I have commented on that before.

 

I've never been on a date. Unless you consider a girl friend meeting you for coffee as a date?

 

Well there is something to work on. It only takes one shrink to change a light bulb but it takes a long time, a lot of commitment & the most important thing is; the light bulb must want to change'.

 

Hey, dating is fun if you leave your agendas at home and just go out & enjoy the event with no preconceived notions or expectations but to enjoy the occasion. So start dating & report back to your shrink or tell us here on LS how it goes

[123321]

Really?

Someone paying for sex, possibly contracting STDs, or any other number of wrong actions, that's somehow BETTER than a clean, STD-free virgin man (or woman)?

 

So would a younger woman who has had fewer sexually active years be a better risk by that logic? Wow I should bust that gem out in another thread I'm active in ..... maybe I will and give you credit.

 

People get STDs from all sorts of sex and other activities, stop throwing this old sawbone out.

 

 

 

 

I also notice now not one guy was an operatic tenor. I guess this proves operatic tenors make the best boyfriends.

 

My god, I think you might have just stumbled onto something important!

 

 

 

 

You're not a virgin only bec. you lost it in a less-noble method, via escorts as you posted.

 

So drunk-fucking your 17 year old prom date is "noble" but seeing a sex professional is not. Interesting theories you have, please subscribe me to your newsletter.

 

 

 

 

So, out of principle, you believe that if person A pays person B for sexual intercourse, that act is fundamentally something that the government should arrest one or both parties for? Is it not person B's right to sell sexual services that they own (their own body)? I understand concerns for health and whatnot, but it's really not my nor the government's business what people do with themselves so long as they don't harm other people.

 

Indeed, smoking, eating at McDonalds, drinking beer, skydiving, rock climbing, scuba diving, racing automobiles, riding motorcycles, rodeos, and any number of other human activities are risky. Some are regulated to a degree, to mediate, as you said, the risk of "harm to other people", but prostitution is one that gets a special level of hate.

 

The activity itself (promiscuity) used to be broadly discouraged but that has gone out of fashion. Now we single out a remaining sliver of society for special hate simply because we can and they have no significant voice.