I feel that physical affairs are far worse than emotional affairs.

[Steadfast]

Exactly. Betrayal is betrayal.

 

True. It isn't apples and oranges. It's all bad.

 

With most women, how many PA aren't emotional to begin with? In my experience (personal and observed) the overwhelming percentage involve 'feelings'. If most men were honest, they'd admit the same thing. Even the seediness of a hiring a prostitute has emotional ties, however brief.

 

Closer to home, my ex swore up, down and sideways her first affair was 'purely physical' but time and circumstance proved otherwise. In fact, the rejection from her first AP spurred the next, starting a very nasty cycle. I never could figure out why the discussion of their emotional tie made her far more angry than the reality of the physical relationship...until I finally understood her motive. She was seeking control but got swept away by emotions. He was controlling her instead of the other way around, which is what she hated most about our relationship. Why did she feel I was controlling her? Easy. I wasn't leading a double life, and in her eyes everyone from the kids to our friends could sense it. She was a mess.

 

Affairs are betrayal. No question in my mind that 'emotions' come first.

[Owl]

Agreed...dealing with an EA...the fantasy aspect of the affair is a LOT stronger because it's not been sullied by dirty reality.

 

I had to deal with the question as to whom my wife was thinking of during our physically intimate times after her EA.

[Linda9999]

So if EA's are sexual in nature, what's the difference whether anything physical actually happened or not?

[Snowflower]

I just dont feel the way alot of you do about EA's. My wife cheated on me several years ago. We were having marital problems back then and were not getting along well at all. We both had people of the opposite sex which be bacame emotionally close to to fill the gap that we had with each other. It didnt bother me then, and it doesnt bother now that she confided in those men, and she felt closeness and attraction with those men. They came and went.

She let it turn physical one time, and she didnt even make him use protection. At that time of the month she even made me wear a condom so she wouldnt risk pregnancy. She did not make him wear a condom.

I dont care what she felt for the guy. She could have thought he was her kinght in shining armor, or she could have thought of him as nothing but a botty call. It doesnt matter to me. All I care about is the fact that he did one of the most intimate things a man can do to a woman with her. Thats the part Ill never fully get over, and the fact she didnt make him wear a condom, so that means he's felt everything that I feel. There's no part of her that he hasnt experienced first hand. It cheapens the sex for me with her even to this day when I think about it.

 

Okay DP, in response to your anguish about the physical part of your wife's affair, did you read this really excellent response from earlier in this thread?

 

I think these are some really good questions here for any BS to ponder as they work through the physical part of their spouse's affair. It goes for BW too:

 

If you think about it tho...what specifically, physically is it that you "can't take back"?

 

That she was "with" someone else? What does that actually change? What are the actual, concrete differences?

 

None. The 'differences' are in your mind. That doesn't make them any less difficult to deal with, don't take me wrong.

 

But if you look at it like that, you can see that you're fighting the same battle with an EA as well. The difference is YOU, and how YOU respond to what's happened.

 

Physically, other than the risk of STD's and pregnancy...there's no difference. You wouldn't know if it was PA or EA. In fact, most people don't truly know...they rely on what they're told, or what they can find out.

 

Now...a PA might be harder FOR YOU TO FORGIVE. And that's fine, again, don't take me wrong. For some, it's harder to forgive. For others, an EA is harder to forgive.

 

That's why I can't call one worse than the other...but to me it's clear that dealing with BOTH is the worst.

 

Make sense?

 

DP, Is any of the above food for thought for you? I don't think there are any right or wrong answers to any of those questions above.

 

It's something that you have to resolve in your own mind and heart.

 

One thing I will add is that I now understand the impact of an EA. If I start to see anything close to one develop between my wife and a guy she is talking to, I make sure to step in and end it fast, right there, before it has a change to blossom into a PA. Thats a mistake I made back then that I will prob never fully forgive myself for, even though it was her decision, I could have ended it before it happened if I knew what I know today.

 

I'm glad this thread helped you. Perhaps it has helped others who are reading here as well.

[linwood]

I`m unsure, my first reaction is to agree with the OP but it would depend on the circumstances.

 

I think I could get over an unemotional physical ONS far quicker and with less damage than I could a long term EA.

 

But generally the physical aspect would influence my decision to R or not.

[MoreRedemption]

Personally to me it would hurt as much to know that they had shared intimate moments like a candlelit supper or that my husband has shared with her intimate secrets.

[CrazyMom]

I'll take that as a compliment

 

It definitely is a compliment! I love reading your posts because you know how to put into words what I feel and think!

[SadDazedConfused]

Speaking from my situation (my husband had multiple PAs and I had both an EA and a PA), it is different for men and women. It is easier for me to move beyond the 2 women that my husband slept with because they were completely unemotional. They were one night stands, and he never saw them again. The visions of him with those women were/are difficult to deal with, but I think the fact that he wasn't emotionally involved with those women at all, makes it easier for me to move on and forgive him.

 

For my husband though, he is really having a hard time dealing with the PA that I had. He is very visual he says, and things will easily trigger him to go down that path and start playing the movies in his head. It was only one drunken night, but that one encounter is really hard for my husband to cope with. The idea of another man giving me pleasure while he sat home alone. He says he understands he sounds hypocritical because he did the same thing, but he still has a right to feel that way, and I understand.

 

We agree upon the analogy that a PA is like binge eating, it sounds like a great idea when it's about to happen, but when you are done, you ask yourself why the heck did I do that? Well my binging, sex in this case, is still making me ask myself that question 12 years later. So for us, the PA is much harder to move beyond.

[mzdolphin]

Having "only" experienced dealing with the damage from an EA...I can't say without a doubt which is more damaging.

 

But my gut response is, you've got EA, you've got PA, and you've got the combo EA/PA.

 

I think that EA/PA is worse...you have to deal with BOTH elements at the same time.

 

Comparitive between "just" EA and PA...can't call it. Both have different attributes that complicate the situation on their own merits. On "just" a PA, you're dealing with the mental movies and comparisons that you just can't avoid. With "just" an EA, it's the knowledge that you truly were "replaced" in your spouse's heart and mind.

 

The combo is obviously the worst of the bunch. After that...can't call it, and think it probably depends a lot on the people involved.

 

I've seen both sides. I stayed married to my ex husband for a while because he had meaningless sex with some woman. turned out later I found out he was a sex addict. He went into treatment but I divorced him. Then I was OW when an old flame who lied about being divorced. Although the physical part was great, I think the bigger threat to his marriage was that we had not only an emotional connection, but shared interests. I don't know what he told her after I informed her of his cheating (at the time he was claiming she refused to divorce him), but I think she may been more hurt to discover that we spent a lot of time playing tennis, at the golf range, watching football, things she was not as interested in. He is a sports journalist and I used to be. I think sharing such a huge part of his life with a woman was intoxicating to him. I had to break it off with no contact or he'd still be seeing me. He continued to stay in touch three years after I told her.

[Steen719]

I've seen both sides. I stayed married to my ex husband for a while because he had meaningless sex with some woman. turned out later I found out he was a sex addict. He went into treatment but I divorced him. Then I was OW when an old flame who lied about being divorced. Although the physical part was great, I think the bigger threat to his marriage was that we had not only an emotional connection, but shared interests. I don't know what he told her after I informed her of his cheating (at the time he was claiming she refused to divorce him), but I think she may been more hurt to discover that we spent a lot of time playing tennis, at the golf range, watching football, things she was not as interested in. He is a sports journalist and I used to be. I think sharing such a huge part of his life with a woman was intoxicating to him. I had to break it off with no contact or he'd still be seeing me. He continued to stay in touch three years after I told her.

 

A tiny t/j...why were you the one who told her? Just curious.

[DarkPrince]

Speaking from my situation (my husband had multiple PAs and I had both an EA and a PA), it is different for men and women. It is easier for me to move beyond the 2 women that my husband slept with because they were completely unemotional. They were one night stands, and he never saw them again. The visions of him with those women were/are difficult to deal with, but I think the fact that he wasn't emotionally involved with those women at all, makes it easier for me to move on and forgive him.

 

For my husband though, he is really having a hard time dealing with the PA that I had. He is very visual he says, and things will easily trigger him to go down that path and start playing the movies in his head. It was only one drunken night, but that one encounter is really hard for my husband to cope with. The idea of another man giving me pleasure while he sat home alone. He says he understands he sounds hypocritical because he did the same thing, but he still has a right to feel that way, and I understand.

 

We agree upon the analogy that a PA is like binge eating, it sounds like a great idea when it's about to happen, but when you are done, you ask yourself why the heck did I do that? Well my binging, sex in this case, is still making me ask myself that question 12 years later. So for us, the PA is much harder to move beyond.

I like this post alot because e it id alot like my situation. Let me ask you one question. Have you told your husband all the intimate details of your sexual encounter? If he didnt ask, would you tell him if he did? Im just curious because mine wont and it's driving me nuts. I dont understand it. If the sex wasnt important then it should be no big deal to tell all the details. She says the sex wasnt a big deal, so I dont understand why she wont tell everything since it wasnt a big deal.

[Woggle]

Betrayal is betrayal and it hurts no matter what the specifics.

[DarkPrince]

Betrayal is betrayal and it hurts no matter what the specifics.

 

thats true, but we all handle it differently. Some people like to be protected from the truth because it hurts too much. Others cant live without knowing every detail, because its the not knowing that drives them insane. So while I agree with you, I think it is more complex than that.

[freestyle]

I like this post alot because e it id alot like my situation. Let me ask you one question. Have you told your husband all the intimate details of your sexual encounter? If he didnt ask, would you tell him if he did? Im just curious because mine wont and it's driving me nuts. I dont understand it. If the sex wasnt important then it should be no big deal to tell all the details. She says the sex wasnt a big deal, so I dont understand why she wont tell everything since it wasnt a big deal.

 

I know different BS's have different points of view, regarding the specific details about a physical encounter.

 

If my SO's EA had turned physical, I'm not sure if I could stomach knowing the intimate details----but that's just me.

 

I wonder if part of what's driving you nuts is this:

 

1. It makes you feel like you're still being kept in the dark. It's insult on injury , after being kept in the dark for the duration of the A. Voluntary transparency on the part of a WS can expedite healing, and go a long way towards rebuilding shattered trust.

 

2. I think in some way, a WS being reticent to share details can come across as them guarding their AP's privacy..Another big insult during reconciliation.It's almost as if they are defending the AP still.........

[DarkPrince]

I know different BS's have different points of view, regarding the specific details about a physical encounter.

 

If my SO's EA had turned physical, I'm not sure if I could stomach knowing the intimate details----but that's just me.

 

I wonder if part of what's driving you nuts is this:

 

1. It makes you feel like you're still being kept in the dark. It's insult on injury , after being kept in the dark for the duration of the A. Voluntary transparency on the part of a WS can expedite healing, and go a long way towards rebuilding shattered trust.

 

2. I think in some way, a WS being reticent to share details can come across as them guarding their AP's privacy..Another big insult during reconciliation.It's almost as if they are defending the AP still.........

Its the first reason you listed. Its like she is still preserving the bond they had by keeping that info strictly between the 2 of them. Its not for me to know, only for them.

Its actually gotten to the point of me wanting to know so bad that I have thought of going to see the other guy and asking him for the details. If I have to take him out and buy him drinks to loosen him up so be it. And I want to kill this guy, but the need to know the details is so great that I would be willing to fake forgiveness towards him just to get that info.

[freestyle]

Its the first reason you listed. Its like she is still preserving the bond they had by keeping that info strictly between the 2 of them. Its not for me to know, only for them.

Its actually gotten to the point of me wanting to know so bad that I have thought of going to see the other guy and asking him for the details. If I have to take him out and buy him drinks to loosen him up so be it. And I want to kill this guy, but the need to know the details is so great that I would be willing to fake forgiveness towards him just to get that info.

 

 

Have you explained it to her, in those terms? That it makes you feel like she's protecting him, and it makes her seem like her loyalty is misplaced?

 

Maybe if you present it to her like that, at a time when you both can have a calm discussion---she'll be able to empathize with how you're feeling.

[DarkPrince]

Have you explained it to her, in those terms? That it makes you feel like she's protecting him, and it makes her seem like her loyalty is misplaced?

 

Maybe if you present it to her like that, at a time when you both can have a calm discussion---she'll be able to empathize with how you're feeling.

 

I think I need help getting my true feelings across to her. She just wants it forgotten about.. I just need to know what she doesnt want to tell me. I dont even think I would trust her if she claimed to tell me everything. I seriously think she would downplay everything and leave out a ton of details.

I think going to the other guy might be my best bet. I will simply tell him that we broke up months ago becuase she cheated on me with a bunch of guys. Ill talk trash abut her, to get him to think we're ont he same page, and that I dont care about him and her. Once he thinks I dont care, Im sure he'll open up and tell me everything, prob even brag about it. Ill have to contain myself and do a great acting job, and I will record all of it. I think thats my only option to get over this once and for all.

[freestyle]

I think I need help getting my true feelings across to her. She just wants it forgotten about.. I just need to know what she doesnt want to tell me. I dont even think I would trust her if she claimed to tell me everything. I seriously think she would downplay everything and leave out a ton of details.

I think going to the other guy might be my best bet. I will simply tell him that we broke up months ago becuase she cheated on me with a bunch of guys. Ill talk trash abut her, to get him to think we're ont he same page, and that I dont care about him and her. Once he thinks I dont care, Im sure he'll open up and tell me everything, prob even brag about it. Ill have to contain myself and do a great acting job, and I will record all of it. I think thats my only option to get over this once and for all.

 

 

So, she's trying to rug-sweep. It's very common for a WS who hasn't found their way out of the "affair fog" yet..........

 

Unfortunately, that mentality will slow down healing and reconciliation.

 

 

As far as your other plan---I can understand you wanting answers, and being willing to go to any length to get them

 

BUT

 

I wouldn't recommend expecting straight answers from the OM.

You can try, but how can you be sure that he would be honest with you?

He was fully willing to engage in deception against you, to get his own needs met in the past. He's NOT in your corner.

 

There's also a chance he could deliberately plant misinformation, to turn you against your wife even further. He could manipulate the situation to his own advantage.

 

Do you really want to give him any insight whatsoever , into the current state of your marriage? I think it's his turn to be the one in the dark.........

 

 

Regarding getting your true feelings across to your wife---I recommend writing a long letter. Take your time with it, choose your words and tone carefully.Finish it, sit on it a few days, go back and reread it, edit it if you feel the need, or add more.........Then give it to her.

 

It's a great way to be heard without being interrupted.

 

 

best wishes, freestyle

[mzdolphin]

A tiny t/j...why were you the one who told her? Just curious.

 

 

Sort of unique situation. He and I had dated 20 years ago, when we were both single. About four years ago we reconnected, in Virginia, where I lived, divorced. And he lived. He said he was divorced. We all worked in media, not famous, but have public personas. She lived in Ohio. He and I dated freely, no hiding. But I caught a glimpse at what looked like a wedding ring in a news video clip. I confronted him. He lied. I did further investigating (stupid lying to a fellow journalist). But much of what I found supported his lie (evidence she lived at a residence in Ohio that was in both their names up until he moved to Florida and then only in her name, and in her maiden name.)

 

But later I found a podcast in which he mentioned his wife, which was after he claimed to be divorced. He explained that he viewed his marriage as over and that he's tried to get a divorce but she refuses. At that point I didn't know what to believe so I emailed her, without details of all his professions of love to me etc., just stating what he claims to be true. I told her I wasn't sure what the truth was.

[Steen719]

Thanks..I was just curious. I was wondering what circumstances would make that occur.

Thank you.

[mopar crazy]

My H had an EA and a PA. It's been 8 years, but I will never forget the pain it caused.

When I think about it (and I try not to) I can honestly say the worst thing that hurt me was the PA part of it. Yes, it hurt like hell when I read the letters he wrote to her, the things he said cut me deeply. I shed a lot of tears. It was right there in front of my eyes. Did I know for a fact he was also sleeping w/ the OW? No, but I had a feeling but I really couldn't react on something I wasn't positive about.

FF to when H and I decided to R our marriage....he admitted to having sex w/ the OW when I asked him to start telling me the truth. I told him it will hurt, but I need to know the truth. I thought the pain of the letters was the worst pain I have ever felt...nope, it was now knowing he also had sex w/ her. I would have nightmares every night of them having sex. Her calling out his name as he, NM. It was awful. Yep, it hurt much more than the EA.

I can't speak for all women, but for me, the PA hurt me a lot more than the EA part of it.

[DarkPrince]

I was thinking. I made all this progress. I made a ton of progress, and the only thing that's stopping me from beong all I can be (forgive the army saying) is the fact that I cant get over my wife's PA.

It's now more than just the fact the ****ed some loser. Its the fact that this is actually holding be back. Its not holding anyone else back. No one else sits around thinking about it, letting it burn their blood for hours on end. NO one else stay sup at night because of it. Just me.

Irregardless of what I want to do with my wife. Whether I want to stay or leave, I need to get over this, for my own good. For ME.

I started working out for her, so SHE would respect me, so SHE would think better of me. But when I started getting results, it became about ME, and that's when it felt right. That's when I knew that I was heading in the right direction.

Now I know that I need to get past this, not for HER, because I dont forgive her, and never will. (She couldve kept her legs closed, its not that hard to do.) But I have to do it for my own good.

There's really no advice I need. I just need to put it out there. For myself to read, so everyone knows that Im stuck on this hurdle and I need to make it over this to be the man I was meant to be.

Edited September 25, 2011 by DarkPrince

[sadcalifornian]

I want to bring up an evolutionary aspect of EA vs. PA. Only recently we tried to see both sexes on equal terms and try to rationalize how things should be perceived equally by both sides and so on. However, the truth is we are quite different and we must accept the difference as what it is.

 

For us men, our women's PA means her getting impregnated by another male. Since we never had the luxury of DNA test before, our women being penetrated means we would never know the true paternity of future offspring from her. So, we developed this primal disgust against women commiting PA against us. We are genetically programmed to feel threatened by it. EA, on the other hand, may be a nuisance, but we did not see it as a real threat as long as there is no bodily fluid exchanged.

 

For women, I suspect that men's EA means he would leave her for the other woman, and this is taken as a serious threat more so than PA. Women understood how men can commit PA without any emotional commitment and as long as she owns his heart he at least would not leave her and her children. Also, women perceive EA as more sexual act than PA. After all, women's idea of lovemaking is more about emotional intimacy than physical act itself. In other words, for most women, sex without emotional connection is not sex at all. So, they tend to view their men's EA being more sexually charged act than a casual intercouse he commits with random women.

 

I think we should understand and respect both views.

[Owl]

I was thinking. I made all this progress. I made a ton of progress, and the only thing that's stopping me from beong all I can be (forgive the army saying) is the fact that I cant get over my wife's PA.

It's now more than just the fact the ****ed some loser. Its the fact that this is actually holding be back. Its not holding anyone else back. No one else sits around thinking about it, letting it burn their blood for hours on end. NO one else stay sup at night because of it. Just me.

Irregardless of what I want to do with my wife. Whether I want to stay or leave, I need to get over this, for my own good. For ME.

I started working out for her, so SHE would respect me, so SHE would think better of me. But when I started getting results, it became about ME, and that's when it felt right. That's when I knew that I was heading in the right direction.

Now I know that I need to get past this, not for HER, because I dont forgive her, and never will. (She couldve kept her legs closed, its not that hard to do.) But I have to do it for my own good.

There's really no advice I need. I just need to put it out there. For myself to read, so everyone knows that Im stuck on this hurdle and I need to make it over this to be the man I was meant to be.

 

DP, you spell out some good points.

 

One thing I wanted to ask tho...I don't know if you ever read my questions about what actually changed as a result of her sleeping with OM?

 

If you hadn't found out about that...if she hadn't told you...nothing has PHYSICALLY changed.

 

It's all about your perception of her as a result of her choice to do this, right?

 

That's what you need to see. It's actually not her...it's your perception of her that's different as a result of her actions.

 

That doesn't make this any less painful for you...don't take me wrong.

 

But it might help for you to see that. At the end of the day...it all boils down to the same thing...whether or not you can forgive her for what she's done, and whether or not you can emotionally recover from what she's done to a point where the marriage can also heal.

 

Have you sought out any kind of counseling to help you deal with this? MC? IC?

[DarkPrince]

DP, you spell out some good points.

 

One thing I wanted to ask tho...I don't know if you ever read my questions about what actually changed as a result of her sleeping with OM?

 

If you hadn't found out about that...if she hadn't told you...nothing has PHYSICALLY changed.

 

It's all about your perception of her as a result of her choice to do this, right?

 

That's what you need to see. It's actually not her...it's your perception of her that's different as a result of her actions.

 

That doesn't make this any less painful for you...don't take me wrong.

 

But it might help for you to see that. At the end of the day...it all boils down to the same thing...whether or not you can forgive her for what she's done, and whether or not you can emotionally recover from what she's done to a point where the marriage can also heal.

 

Have you sought out any kind of counseling to help you deal with this? MC? IC?

the only thing that changed is that I know this guy was inside my wife and she let him. Even though it didnt mean anything to her, it was a very pleasurable time for him. He and I hated each other and I can only guess how good that felt for him as he came deep inside my wife. That's the ultimate form of disrespect. There's nothing worse. The fact that she let him have that experience makes me hate her. And this guy got to hit it and leave. Use my wife like a used peice of meat, and bail. He never had to deal with her bad side. HE never went through the rough times with her like I did. He got to get the best part of her, and not put in any work, while I did for years. He didnt earn the right to **** her like I **** her. He told everyone in the complex, and at his job and I was a laughing stock. What was I supposed to do? Beat him up and go to jail? No, so I did nothing. I ate it. I let it fester inside me for years.

Nothing else has changed. She's been with many guys before me and a few when we first met. I didnt know any of those guys, and I didnt catch her red handed. I wasnt humiliated and emasculated by them so I didnt pay them much mind.

Edited September 27, 2011 by DarkPrince