How we treat cheaters on this board

[wheelwright]

So now you're saying that you and your husband never been in love. It was just a marriage for convenience?

 

I noticed this too.

 

When a liar lies enough, often enough, over a long enough period of time, they eventually "trip themselves up."

 

Now wheelwright is basically admitting that her entire marriage was a complete sham, she never loved her husband. If she thought it was perfectly OK to lie to her husband throughout their entire relationship it would be easy for her to justify--to herself--cheating on the guy as well.

 

She can make the excuse that she cheated because she finally "fell in love" all she wants, but that doesn't explain why she lied to her husband in order to trick him into marrying her.

 

Underlying the cheating is the person who did the cheating, a warped, lying, amoral individual, in most cases.

 

Or maybe not...

[OldOnTheInside]

Understanding involves the possibility of condemnation without acting on it.

Considering the kind of things I ended up seeing, not condemning would have been impossible for me. There are certain lines that can be crossed, where there is no plausable justification, and where rationalisation is something that helps you sleep at night. And where explaining yourself, changes nothing in the long run.

 

You can be involved in a complex ethical situation, and realise that at the end of the day, all your thinking and moralising and rationalising was complete cowsh*t. And it isn't fun. Happened to me. No doubt most people have experienced it at least once.

 

It involves letting others be without your own thinking colouring what you think about them.

I dunno if that is possible at all. Say I said "I think that all married women who have affairs should be beaten, raped, locked in a cellar, and burnt alive" and managed to justify that in my own mind.

 

Things are going to get coloured.

 

What is grey and grey thinking?

Define black and white thinking. Now plop black and white together. Voilà.

[wheelwright]

I don't know why I still banter on the subject of my morality with people who are clearly out for some kind of cheater kill. Even if light-hearted.

 

Perhaps I want to persuade you? Clearly I won't.

 

I think I want to state my case against the starkest possible opposition.

 

We are all very 'clever' with philosophy and words. Sometimes I go there. But what I am saying about my love, feelings, crisis of M and morality is true.

 

I must do it because I want my truth known and understood.

 

I did not live in truth in my M, and that causes me pain that I went there and in its impact on my H. That is not a small thing that I can read in a bashing post which doesn't go home somewhere.

 

I understand what I did. I have made mistakes. I have all the wonderful qualities of humankind - saint, sinner, shadow, princess, warrior, coward, crone, idiot.

 

I am only learning who I am now.

[cheergirl]

 

Thanks!

 

I don't think I ever got a bunny before!

Simple common sense and humanity deserve multiple bunnies here...lol

[wheelwright]

I did not live in truth in my M, and that causes me pain

 

Hence my statement that you are your own ground zero in the catastrophe that is your life.

 

 

I understand what I did. I have made mistakes.

 

 

Look, at this point it's not clear who you think is believing this stuff. If you "understand" what you did then you wouldn't still be calling it your "mistakes." If you still believe it was "mistakes" then you truly don't "understand" what you did.

 

It's not merely semantics. You used mistakes for a reason--to suggest that what you did was other than very deliberate actions on your part.

 

You have been here long enough to know that NO ONE is going to seriously buy that, yet you compulsively still call what you did, "mistakes."

 

I think a website like this is probably not helpful for someone like you. All you are really doing is talking out loud to yourself and probably only really listening to other people who cheated, wrecked their marriages, hurt their spouses and families, and don't want to face up to it.

 

Your post makes me feel silly to have engaged.

[cheergirl]

I did not live in truth in my M, and that causes me pain

 

Hence my statement that you are your own ground zero in the catastrophe that is your life.

 

 

I understand what I did. I have made mistakes.

 

 

Look, at this point it's not clear who you think is believing this stuff. If you "understand" what you did then you wouldn't still be calling it your "mistakes." If you still believe it was "mistakes" then you truly don't "understand" what you did.

 

It's not merely semantics. You used mistakes for a reason--to suggest that what you did was other than very deliberate actions on your part.

 

You have been here long enough to know that NO ONE is going to seriously buy that, yet you compulsively still call what you did, "mistakes."

 

I think a website like this is probably not helpful for someone like you. All you are really doing is talking out loud to yourself and probably only really listening to other people who cheated, wrecked their marriages, hurt their spouses and families, and don't want to face up to it.

 

I believe this is our resident multi-headed sock puppet deconstructionist. Twisting the words of whatever post it gets fixated upon is its life's work, I believe, since usually it's present with several identities and posts dozens of times (maybe hundreds) most days.

Pay it no heed...

 

So now you know....

[Memphis Raines]

Here I am, two years after the A. Faithful, rebuilding the trust with my H that I lost two years ago. Guess what? Nothing has changed with our physical relationship. NOTHING!

 

well its damn hard to want a physical relationship with someone that went out and had sex with someone else. unless hysterical bonding is going on.

 

 

You can call me shallow, or heartless or whatever, but I do expect to have a sex life.

 

then get a divorce and go get one.

 

 

Bad mouth all you want, but everyone has a story. This one is not yours, and until you take your seat in a throne way up in the clouds, you are not my judge and jury.

 

maybe not your jury, but anyone can judge all they like. you passed judgement on your H, and went out and also had sex with someone else.

 

so you judge whether you like it or not. I could say you aren't your husbands judge.

[gpatb43]

 

 

So now you know....

 

Well said.

[OldOnTheInside]

Sorry that you got chased off WW...

 

All I'm saying is, you'd have to be dealing with some d*mned understanding people, if they actually let the "circumstances" idea fly. I'm talking 1 person out of 100 on the rarity scale.

Edited July 8, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[NoIDidn't]

Understanding involves the possibility of condemnation without acting on it. In the soul.

 

It involves letting others be without your own thinking colouring what you think about them. It is not about grey. It is incredibly difficult, and I still have some dealbreakers such as female circumscion. Mostly though, you will know the thing to be not tolerated by its malice. Then the soul recoils, and it is not about judgment anymore.

 

What is grey and grey thinking?

 

I agree there are some things we should not tolerate. They usually involve malice and evil, which we weren't on the subject of, and are a separate issue to the vagaries of A morality. On the whole.

 

Hogwash! Its impossible to not let your own thinking color what you think about a person. Even the sentence construct shows that. Its what you think, generally speaking "you", of course your thinking will be colored by your thoughts.

 

My kids do plenty of things that I should never tolerate because they simply don't know any better, not because of "malice and evil". LOL. Too easy to throw out words that strike a cord with people but things really aren't that simple to quantify. Ignorance and selfishness are just as often at the center of things that society and individuals should never tolerate as "malice and evil". And my "malice" might be very different from someone else's.

 

I can totally understand why a person believes and behaves the way that they do. But that never means that I am well within my rights to not want to associate with them or trust them (condemn them) as a result.

 

I've not read this entire thread, but I think "cheaters" are treated the way they are on this board because of their convoluted thinking. I don't think they realize it, but they come across as willing to justify anything often. Because they don't want to be judged, they don't judge others doing wrong because "hey, I'm a good person and I'm doing something wrong too" is often what they mistake as "grey" thinking.

 

Its not grey, its rationalization. Everyone and everything moves towards black and white, away from grey. Grey suggests a kind of limbo, that things could go either way morality/ethically-wise. Grey implies that you are lingering between black and white, actually considering the opposing views. Most of the "cheaters" here aren't lingering between anything. They've made up their minds about what they are doing and no one is going to change it. That's pretty black and white, IMO.

 

How they manage to conclude that their way of thinking is "grey" and not "black and white", is just more proof of convoluted thinking. And convoluted does not equal grey.

 

[actual poster name removed because the response is to the ideas presented, not to the individual that presented them ]

[OldOnTheInside]

She didn't get "chased off."

Judging by her replies, she thinks that she did...

 

Running away from the truth doesn't change the truth.

I agree with that.

 

That's largely a function of the fact that in western society, people have an awful lot of autonomy and freedom of action.

Exactly why I am generally unsympathetic to them.

 

I can think of few cases where my friends have pulled the "grey area" argument off and expected it to be taken seriously. I mean, I used to say it a lot in my 20s as though it actually meant something but what I consider to be a "morally complex" situation means d*ck all.

[rolie]

I dont understand when it is said that the cheater is hurting too.

how is he hurting, it was his/her choice to be unfaithful. why should i waste my time and energy feeling sorry for him. my husband cheated on me and he keeps appologising saying how much this hurts him to. how the hell can it hurt when he chose to do the deed.

I just dont understand.

 

I'm seeing a common theme where someone comes here to ask for advice, they are the WS, and they get put through the ringer. I know many of us are hurting here, but this board isn't just for the BS. None of us are perfect individuals. I've been slowly acknowledging my own contributions to the demise of my marriage which assisted in my WH's infidelity. As much as we'd like to think it was all about the infidelity, it is much more than that.

 

Infidelity hurts both parties, the BS and the WS. This is a very hard time for everyone involved. If the WS comes here asking how to save their marriage, rather than putting them down, we should be helping them repair their marriage by sharing our experiences and feelings.

 

I know for many of us the feelings are raw and it is difficult, but the WS OPs are not YOUR WS so we should not take our anger out on them. I'm sure it is especially hard for some of us here where our WS did/does not return or show remorse. These aren't the WS we generally see on this board. Just like the compassion we show to BS, we should be showing it to the WS, too.

 

Everyone involved in infidelity is hurting. Attempting to punish/flame WS's here is not constructive. It feeds into the anger/pain we are feeling which is self destructive and not healing. I'm sure I'm not going to win many friends here by this post, but this board is to discuss infidelity, support each other, and provide constructive feedback not to break people down. Everyone is just trying to get through this the best they can.

[nyrias]

I dont understand when it is said that the cheater is hurting too.

how is he hurting, it was his/her choice to be unfaithful. why should i waste my time and energy feeling sorry for him. my husband cheated on me and he keeps appologising saying how much this hurts him to. how the hell can it hurt when he chose to do the deed.

I just dont understand.

 

Are you saying guilt and regret are impossible for cheaters? Like it or not, those are human emotions that hurts.

 

A person who is responsible for a bad act is not always immune to pain caused by it. Compulsive gambling is a good example. How often people are hurt by it while they actively chose to engage in it.

[OldOnTheInside]

That's not the point though. The issue is why the cheater feels the need to "share" with the very person that was victimized. They "share" because they want to run a guilt trip on their victim, or manipulate their victim. The can never just shut up and take their medicine in silence, can they?

 

If a WS is 100% committed to the path of reconcilliation with their spouse, than their feelings during and after the affair will have to be taken into consideration too. Some WSes do feel incredible amounts of guilt and regret about their actions. Some take it far worse than the BS.

 

What adds to the complexity of the situation is that the BS can never be sure as to whether their partner is simply trying to open up to them, or as you said, guilt trip or manipulate their partner. Although, this is more a reflection of the overall personality of the WS, than the fact that they are a cheater.

 

Of course, it should be pointed out that it can be quite a bit harder to sympathise with those that are the instigators of their own pain. Which is the case with the WS.

[Jason Todd]

If a WS is 100% committed to the path of reconcilliation with their spouse, than their feelings during and after the affair will have to be taken into consideration too. Some WSes do feel incredible amounts of guilt and regret about their actions. Some take it far worse than the BS.

 

What adds to the complexity of the situation is that the BS can never be sure as to whether their partner is simply trying to open up to them, or as you said, guilt trip or manipulate their partner. Although, this is more a reflection of the overall personality of the WS, than the fact that they are a cheater.

 

Of course, it should be pointed out that it can be quite a bit harder to sympathise with those that are the instigators of their own pain. Which is the case with the WS.

 

Which goes back to the point that WSs cannot be trusted.

[silktricks]

Which goes back to the point that WSs cannot be trusted.

 

Well, not to be totally picky, but in reality, no one can be trusted absolutely. Even you and even me. Though I am a pretty overall trustworthy person.

[Jason Todd]

Well, not to be totally picky, but in reality, no one can be trusted absolutely. Even you.

 

No that is only your assumption. And if that is true, then why remain with someone who has been unfaithful? I would stake my life on a woman who has never cheated on me rather than someone who has cheated on me.

[wheelwright]

 

Of course, it should be pointed out that it can be quite a bit harder to sympathise with those that are the instigators of their own pain. Which is the case with the WS.

 

People may hurt us, but our pain is our own.

 

I don't feel WSs are more especially culprits than anyone else here. They are in some cases more honest open expressors of the whole heap of sh*t that is a R gone wrong.

 

It's just someone who won't pretend wholesale, they just pretend a little for a while.

 

As are often about change. It's not nice to be deceived, but so what?

 

I think the hurt is about the loss of control. About the abandonment in terms of emotion.

 

If I were being deceived by a partner, I would have some initial Qs.

 

What are they expressing? Why? What has gone wrong, and is it us or him?

 

Unless I knew the cheater to be a shallow player in general, (which is sometimes but not often the case), I would have every reason to feel their pain as well as my own. If I had any.

 

I am also feeling at the mo that pain as opposed to sadness is about ego. Feel sad, feel betrayal, but the pain is only necessary as long as you hold on to ego investments.

[nyrias]

Which goes back to the point that WSs cannot be trusted.

 

If you statement is true, then whoever tries to reconcile with a cheater is just a fool.

 

Evidence has shown that there exists successfully reconciled marriage after affairs. Are you saying all of those are shams?

 

And it takes TWO to have a relationship, even one after an affair. That means psychology of BOTH parties have an effect and it would be illogical to ignore the psychology of one of the them (i.e. the WS).

[Jason Todd]

If you statement is true, then whoever tries to reconcile with a cheater is just a fool.

 

Evidence has shown that there exists successfully reconciled marriage after affairs. Are you saying all of those are shams?

 

What evidence? Show me. And when someone cheats yes the marriage is a sham.

 

And it takes TWO to have a relationship, even one after an affair. That means psychology of BOTH parties have an effect and it would be illogical to ignore the psychology of one of the them (i.e. the WS). Again no BS is responsible for being cheated on so it's illogical to even attempt to even feebly rebuke it.

 

Exactly it takes two to have a relationship. There is no relationship if your partner is out playing "soccer" with another man.

[gpatb43]

What evidence? Show me. And when someone cheats yes the marriage is a sham.

 

he doesn't need to show you - if you read the boards instead assuming your opinions are fact, you'd see the proof - I guess some only see what they want to see.

[rafallus]

Evidence has shown that there exists successfully reconciled marriage after affairs. Are you saying all of those are shams?

Success is relative too. He may not see any of these as successful reconciliations, and has every right to do so. And so do have people with opposite point of view.

 

Man, so many conflicts fade, after you accept relativity of certain concepts.

[gpatb43]

Success is relative too. He may not see any of these as successful reconciliations, and has every right to do so. And so do have people with opposite point of view.

 

Man, so many conflicts fade, after you accept relativity of certain concepts.

 

Which swings both ways - some are successful, some arent.

[rafallus]

Which swings both ways - some are successful, some arent.

No.

 

The point is - it's up to everyone to evaluate on their own, whether it's success or not. You may think some are, some aren't, somebody else may think all failed, yet another person thinks all succeeded.

 

Nobody can prove another one wrong, because concept isn't absolute.

 

Person A: <shows example of what he thinks is successful reconciliation>

Person B: That's not successful to me.

<end of discussion>

 

And vice versa.

 

You can call all you want, that their criteria for successfulness are outlandish, ridiculous, etc. But it won't change jack ****.

Edited July 10, 2011 by rafallus

[Jason Todd]

he doesn't need to show you - if you read the boards instead assuming your opinions are fact, you'd see the proof - I guess some only see what they want to see.

 

I know he doesn't need to show me but I wasn't posting to you. And the fact that he can't show me just further proves my point and even if he did, most likely I would still think it's a farce because so far I have only seen none on this board and in this world who have been completely remorseful for what they've done. I have not seen one cheater on this board and in this world actually keep their mouths closed and agreeing in unison with BSs instead of trying to protest and justify their actions and until I see that, my view of reconciliation will not change.