It's possible I might be done

[Zapbasket]

 

Sounds like you don't want to just say you're breaking up with him because you're tired of him; you are trying to shoehorn him into being the "bad guy" and he doesn't quite fit, because he's not a bad guy.

 

I don't think he's a bad guy. If it did than the right course of action would be very apparent and much easier to accomplish.

[pole_cat]

As I've been reading your threads about this relationship, my frustration has been mounting.

 

Please consider the following:

 

He is manipulative.

He is controlling.

He may very well have a personality disorder.

He will drain you of your self-confidence.

He will rob you of your sense of what is inappropriate behavior in a relationship.

His family may not be as "nice" as they seem.

 

Please don't:

 

Try to reason with him about his behavior.

Write him any letters.

Make additional efforts to "fix" or "save" this relationship.

Give any explanations to his family/friends on your position.

Waste additional time on this relationship.

 

He knows just what to say and do to bring this relationship back from the brink. He's done it REPEATEDLY. He's got your number and he knows what buttons of yours to push. You have said as much and I want to confirm for you, from the outside looking in, that you are seeing the situation CORRECTLY.

[Zapbasket]

Maybe he just gets tired at the end of the day. When you are with each other, is there some sort of expectation that ALL of your time has to be spent "together"?

 

Not at all. He sometimes construes it that way and then gets mad at me. He's done that since the beginning and he acknowledges it's a bad habit.

 

You know, there is a way of responding to someone who is being rude/irritable without escalating the situation. You just recognize that maybe he is a little bit tired and simply don't make a big deal out of it. You can go into another room or do some other activity, without trying to assign blame, to allow both of you to "cool off."

 

Surely there is a way to be tired and and even grumpy without managing to be paranoid and accusatory?

 

I did try to step away; he followed me out to my car, and then, to my house.

 

 

It doesn't sound like there is any "margin for error" in your relationship. Unfortunately you are unlikely to ever find another person that you spend lots of time with, in a romantic relationship, where there won't be a certain amount of friction. What you need to do is figure out a way of dealing with the periodic friction without giving up on the entire relationship.

 

The friction isn't periodic. That's what I told myself until recently. That we were just experiencing "hiccups" and otherwise everything was fine and would get better with time. I'm questioning that now, because I see no change from the beginning of the relationship, I don't feel safe or comfortable in the relationship, and with these dynamics I don't feel the relationship has any future. These aren't just minor frictions here and there but a continual manifestation of sabotaging mistrust coupled with antagonism and minimization of my feelings.

 

 

You make him sound like a delusional mad man. Obviously he's not. In fact it sounds like he gets p.o.'ed at you for doing to him, in real life, what you're doing to him here.

 

I don't think he is delusional but I think his insecurities lie beyond the reach of something we can work on together. I would like to be wrong in that, but unfortunately that is what seems to be becoming increasingly clear to me.

[Zapbasket]

I haven't read your other threads, but given the tenor and attitude towards him in this one, it wouldn't be surprising to me if you have someone in mind as a potential replacement. But even if you don't, that's not a reason to procrastinate breaking up with him.

 

And, the next boyfriend you get involved with, please don't share emasculating jokes about him with his mother, and expect him not to be resentful about it.

 

I really do appreciate all you say here, PorkRinds, and I appreciate your taking the time to post your thoughts. But I would ask you please to take a look at some of my other threads regarding this relationship, especially the one entitled, "Handling Teasing." I began that thread just shy of a year ago, and the core dynamics I described there have not changed, despite many discussions and seemingly mutual efforts to work on things. The frustration I emit in this thread is the result of a YEAR of trying, of, yes, ENGAGING with him in every way I know how, positive and negative, to try to shift this relationship into something where we can BOTH feel safe and happy and just focus on enjoying each other's company while simultaneously PRODUCTIVELY addressing frictions that arise. I am not perfect and have no illusions of being such. I only know that I have told him many times that he has been very abrasive and insensitive, sometimes seemingly on purpose, about things that he knows matter to me...and while he says he understands, nothing has changed.

 

I DON'T want to be in a relationship where I'm constantly having to ask my partner to be more respectful. That's the dynamic I feel is going on here. And yes, his mother and I shared a little laugh at his expense, but that's just the problem--when someone is nearly CONSTANTLY negative, grumpy, blaming other people for his discomfort/ill luck/fill in the blank, how do you deal with it on a daily basis? You can ignore it, yes, but only to some extent since it comprises your DAILY REALITY. You can laugh at it, but I am not good at that the way his mom seems to be (when he acts up, she ignores him; I on the other hand take him seriously and get upset) and so that's not a reliable response for me. You can get angry about it, but that only makes him defensive and then there's an argument. You can talk about it with him calmly, rationally, and he might acknowledge a problem and promise to work on it, but if nothing changes, then what? What can you do?

 

I feel this relationship needs some kind of intervention at this point to move forward. It cannot continue as it has. So, either an intervention of some kind that I have not yet figured out...or, I walk.

 

No, there is no one in the wings. I have never in my life had anyone or anything "in the wings." In fact, I have never broken up with anyone, because my pattern is to hold on and hold on and hold on, thinking it's my fault and something I can fix rather than asking myself, "Can I tolerate this or can I not?" and taking action if the answer is "no."

 

I really am unhappy that it has come to this point.

[Jane Deaux]

Wow, reading your posts seems like my marriage unfolding. I dealt with the very same issue with my husband. Oddly enough, he has the same initial as your "N". Everyone always says, Oh how calm and easygoing "N" is. Used to I did the same thing. Smiled and was like, Ohhh sureee. Nowadays, I look at them like they are crazy and say, "yeah, well that's what everyone has thought from the beginning, try being married to him".

 

He was NEVER calm. He has anxiety issues out of this world. They aren't an easy fix. Heck, my husbands aren't fixed. So maybe they aren't fixable at all.

 

If you aren't married and don't have children, In my personal experience, I say you should run far away. It wears you down. I cannot tell you how many times in the last 7 years I have asked my H if he even LIKED me. And WHY are we even together???? He seems to have NOTHING good to say about me and he is forever teasing, saying negative things about my personality, says things in front of our friends about little nit picking things, ect. To this day I maintain that he does not like me. He says otherwise. Tells me he loves me ect. I ask him why he doesn't act like it. He hasn't got an answer for that one. He just gets angry that I would ask that. I say, well you aren't in the least romantic, you always complain because I'm outspoken, ect., and you tell me things I should always be doing differently. So WHAT do you like about me????

If we had not gotten pregnant by accident TWO months after meeting, we would have been broken up by at least 6 months after meeting, if not sooner. Thats about when I noticed that he was like this. Not acceptable to me.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Jane Deaux

[Eve]

Eve, thanks much for your thoughts. I have tried to be "cooler" about his insensitivity and abrasiveness...but it's just not me, I've found. It's not just that N. gets into "moods"; it's that when he does get into moods he distinctly takes it out on me via mistrust or teasing or general insensitivity--like gazing at me sullenly from the table when I arrive, smiling, at a restaurant to meet him at a designated time. I find that really childish and unnecessary and totally counterproductive to our being able to have a smooth interaction. That kind of behavior only brings me down. We can all have moods, for sure, but he doesn't seem ever to check himself; it's like he WANTS to pick a tiff with me and it's been like this from the beginning, so I don't think it's attributable to some latent resentment.

 

Whichwayisup, next week I'm going back east for 3 weeks, and I'm thinking of calling for a break, where we don't really talk much during that time, if at all, and we think things over.

 

I feel this, I think, pretty strongly: I don't feel he is mature enough for me, and consequently I don't feel I can rely on him in the way someone should feel able to rely on the person in line to be one's husband or wife. Is that enough of a basis to end things? Is it my conceit to say N is "not mature enough," or is that a valid intuition? I don't mean it unkindly; it's just what I experience, time and time again.

 

 

Thanks for reading my further post. I wanted to see what your maturity levels are as well because we all have quirks.

 

Thinking back to a previous relationship, I remember my doing all or most of the work within the relationship and quickly tiring of this dynamic. I think this is what I relate mostly to within your posts. It just wasn't good enough. There was no continuation with regard to 'us', it was just moments in time and my fixing whatever was going on.

 

I found that I am a master fixer but really did not miss the relationship when it was not present. It became really like I was being interrupted.

 

Being specific about what I did in fact want led me to what I have now. Although Hubby has his moods (not as common now because he has learned how to handle them and will come to me for affection without that BS drama) his heart is open. I do not consider that your current bf is near this state.

 

I have since concluded that the previous relationship had become so because he was unable to open his heart. He had a set idea about how relationships should be and probably did not even really see me, until I was gone.

 

Please be careful with how you end this relationship. This is the worst case scenario but I must add that I had no idea that I would be stalked. I had to move twice. He did this in a way that made himself look innocent, like he was looking out for me still to his relatives. They had no idea what he was up to.

 

Of course this could be me being over protective but I remember that pattern of behaviour well. It all got a bit dark in the end, I think because he grew used to my always fixing things.

 

What I have now is a million miles from that and I am glad that I followed my intuition and left it behind.

 

You have made perfect sense here. It is not all in your head at all. You do not have to be the fixer, you can reach out for something deeper and you can achieve this.

We hear you!

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Jane Deaux]

(quoting wasn't working so I copy and pasted PorkRind's words and bolded my responses to the quoted)

 

Strange how so many women like G.C. and Jane think relationship issues are always 100% the fault of the male party.

I think it's strange that you think you know me, or my H based on ONE post. AND it's obviously a post based on his negative aspects.

People can behave one way in a benign social environment, but differently if embroiled in a toxic, co-dependent relationship. N is calm and easygoing in environments conducive to being calm and easygoing. In other environments, N may have different behaviors.

He is calm, easy going with friends because he smokes with them, and I don't allow it in the house.

So, your response to being in an unhappy marriage is to denigrate your spouse to social acquaintances? That doesn't seem to be an effective relationship-building skill IMHO.

Yeah, sure, I denigrate him when I say he isn't calm. Yeah, thats what that is.

He is calm with his friends, because he feels safe and secure with them. Since (as you divulge below) you decided you were unhappy with him within months of getting involved with him, and you publicly derogate him, I'm not seeing why you think he should feel safe and secure with you. What you are describing would make most men anxious.

Again, it's because he smokes with them and not with me. And again, I don't publicy derogate him. Saying someone is not calm and easygoing is not derogatory.

Why are you bothering to ask him this, when you say (below) that you knew shortly after marrying him that it was a mistake???? Why would he "like" a woman who never really wanted to be married to him, but only got married due to an "accidental" pregnancy?

See how you are twisting things. My entire post about NOT WANTING to be married to this man was BECAUSE of how he treated me. He didn't treat me this way because of how I was, I BECAME HOW I WAS BECAUSE OF HOW HE TREATED ME. I did say that in the beginning I tried to keep quiet and just smile and deal with things. However when someone puts you down often enough you begin to wonder why they are even with you in the first place. I stayed because of my children and because I thought I could give my child a family he deserved.

Didn't you say you do basically the same thing to him?

Nope, I said that I tell his friends that he isn't so calm or easygoing. AGAIN, NOT AN INSULT. JUST A STATEMENT.

The answer is obvious--you don't want to be married to him. You didn't want to have your child with him. The child was an "accident".

CORRECT! I don't. But we are working on it. But my advice to the OP was so that she doesn't have to "work on it".

When a woman says she's "outspoken" that's generally "code" for some form of pushy, PITA, loud mouth behavior. Perhaps you are a woman who has an opinion on everything, and insists that everyone know what it is, at all times? That's not always the best way to achieve domestic bliss, IME.

No, I'm not using code for loud mouth. Perhaps... you don't know what kind of woman I am. Don't make assumptions because I said I was outspoken. But you are striking me as a know it all. And you seem to like to put words in peoples mouths. Not so attractive either.

Actually you haven't indicated what YOU think is likable about you. You said that you insulted him publicly to his peers and that you were loud--oops, "outspoken."

Again with the putting words in my mouth. I did not say I insulted him. I said....for the last time, that I said he was not so calm and easy going.

This is unfortunately oh so typical of the way a lot of women address relationship issues. You spend the bulk of your post just hurling criticism at your husband, then, finally, you admit you don't even want to be with him, and actually it sounds like you never really did.

What's unfortunate is that you misread posts and add things for your benefit, which I am not even sure is apparent here. What was your point anyway? To insult me, because...I said some things about a man that you don't know? You assume everything I say is incorrect, wrong, and twisted and you make assumptions based on a few sentences about MY spouse that I live with daily. And I can't offer advice to a poster based on my experiences? I am the one living this life, not you. I have lived with this man daily for YEARS. I can ASSURE YOU that I did not post every little detail of this life for you to even come close to making the kind of assumptions that you did.

Then leave.

That's for me and H to decide. Not you. I am doing my best to let my H work on his issues and try to resolve them. I put up with them for years. I have JUST NOW let him know that they aren't acceptable. Within the last month. He sees what he has done to this family and his children and he is now working on it. If it is too late I will let him know once I've given him a fair chance to improve. I also told him that. In case you want to beat me up over that too. I let him know that he may be too late. And he still wants to try.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Jane Deaux

[PinkInTheLimo]

Ladies, I would not give too much attention to PorkRinds. Chances are that he is an abuser himself, judging by the way he defends GreenCove's boyfriend who has all characteristics of an abuser.

[Eve]

Ladies, I would not give too much attention to PorkRinds. Chances are that he is an abuser himself, judging by the way he defends GreenCove's boyfriend who has all characteristics of an abuser.

 

Yeah, he is not listening at all.

 

Take Care,

Eve x

[giotto]

Ladies, I would not give too much attention to PorkRinds. Chances are that he is an abuser himself, judging by the way he defends GreenCove's boyfriend who has all characteristics of an abuser.

 

This person reappears under a different moniker every time he gets banned... pretty sure it's him... silly name, same style, same endless quoting posts, same old provocative arguments, just for the sake of it... yawn...

Edited April 28, 2011 by giotto

[Jane Deaux]

[/b]You posted, I responded to your post. The bottom line is you didn't want to marry him in the first place; you disavow any responsibility for placing yourself in the marriage, claiming the pregnancy was "accidental"; and don't take responsibility for your own life. That's why you're unhappy about your situation.

 

You had the choice to have sex with him, or not; you had the choice to use an appropriate method of birth control, or not; when you accidentally became pregnant, you had the choice (as the woman) whether or not to keep the child; when you decided to keep the child, you had the choice to marry him, or not. You made the choice to marry your h knowing what his personality was like. Now you are angry at him because he is what he is.

 

 

Tells me at least two things--1) You married a smoker, but don't want him to smoke around you, which makes absolutely no sense; people who smoke get nervous when deprived of their nicotine. 2) You have the ability to impose your will on the relationship. You made a rule that he can't smoke with in the house, and he follows it. You control what happens in this relationship, not him. Again, take responsibility.

 

 

 

 

You're changing what you said in your prior post. Your choice, but not my burden to read your mind.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you also tell your friends that the reason he is not calm around you is because you won't let him smoke when he's around you? Again you're in complete control of the relationship. You married a smoker, you knew he was a smoker, but he can't smoke around you. I'm not saying smoking is good--but you married the person you married, and you're acting as if you didn't know he was a smoker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You tell him not to smoke in the house, he doesn't. The addiction to nicotine is quite strong. The fact that you are successfully able to impose your will on your h's addiction says everything that needs to be said about who is actually "in control" in your relationship.

 

 

 

 

Oh I see. It's your h's fault that you got accidentally pregnant; that you married him even though you didn't want to; that you're "outspoken," that you are the way you are. He made you who you are, yet he doesn't even have the minimal power in your relationship to light up a cig in the house? Not buying that.

 

 

 

What you originally said is you didn't want to be in a relationship with him and only married him because you accidentally got pregnant. You also said he tells you he loves you, but you don't want to give him any credit for actually meaning what he says. That's on you, not on him. If you married him simply for financial support, which it seems you are implying, again, that was your choice, a consequence of your own actions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't remember in your prior post where you stated that all you told his friends was that he wasn't calm and easygoing. You're "shouting" at me (by using cap lock key) on an internet message board. I hardly believe that you have a good capacity to deal with conflict with your h in a calm, reasonable manner.

 

 

 

 

 

OP already knows that. She was going to break up with him last June but didn't. Apparently it's his fault that the relationship continued for another 11 months???

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't want to be perceived that way, then you shouldn't type in "caps."

 

 

 

 

You didn't respond to what I posted here--what is it that YOU believe are your "good"/likable qualities that he has failed to acknowledge?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are free to offer whatever advice you want, but please acknowledge that you are doing so from a totally dysfunctional relationship. IMO one of the reasons for that is that you just don't want to take any responsibility for where you are in that relationship, which strikes me as very similar to G.C.--and many many other people, both men and women.

 

 

 

 

 

He has issues, but you don't talk about your own issues. You can't really control his issues, but you can try to work on yours. Obviously you didn't want him to smoke in the house, you told him that, and he complied. So don't pretend as if he's not trying to cooperate with you. He also was willing to marry you when you got pregnant. A lot of guys would not have taken on that responsibility. He tells you he loves you (which is probably why he married you) even though it is very clear, by your own posting, that you don't feel the same way about him--you just resent him.

 

It doesn't sound like you give him any credit for the positives he brings to your relationship.

 

 

Within the last month. He sees what he has done to this family and his children and he is now working on it. If it is too late I will let him know once I've given him a fair chance to improve. I also told him that. In case you want to beat me up over that too. I let him know that he may be too late. And he still wants to try.

 

I haven't "beat you up" at all. Don't play the victim here. All you've done is criticize your h and not identified where you are deficient in the relationship, which is important, because you have the most control over your own actions, not his.

 

And, you had more than one child with him. Why did you do that if you didn't want to be with him in the first place?

 

That's just not logical.

 

I am not going to respond to anything else you have to say. You are making things up. You do not know anything about my life beyond a FEW PARAGRAPHS that I have posted to the OP, not to you. STOP making this about me. YOu do not have any idea what you are talking about and you are coming off as a bit looney.

And another thing, Im not talking about cigarettes. So no, your whole post was way off. Stop assuming stuff psycho. Get over yourself as well. I won't be responding to anything else you have to say since you are clearly a bit off your rocker.

[iceweasel6]

GreenCove,

 

It's crazy, but when I read your posts on this thread, I swear to you that you were describing me, and you sound exactly like my ex. We broke up on April 2nd.

 

Prior to our breakup I starting counseling, actively doing group communication therapy, and have read numerous books to help change my most basic beliefs and attitudes towards connectedness and emotions.

 

Today I realize that she had repeatedly put herself out there to try and help me each time, and it never worked until I took responsibility on my own.

Although we aren't talking at this present moment (and I want her back), I understand that changing must come from the right place, from within me. And it begins with accepting that my conflicts, my skewed views of how things are and what I see are real, and that I our dynamic was not healthy, and the problem was with me and not her.

 

It was a hard pill to swallow. But after accepting the reality and levity of the situation, and seeking help, enacting changes was the easy part. The first step was difficult.

 

Hopefully he will realize that and change to a more secure personality and less emotionally labile.

[An3maePhreek]

Well, GC, you obviously know and understand your own emotions to a T which is basically that you have allowed this behavior to happen for some time, but are now incapable of tolerating it any longer. It's fine, you've let him know, you've tried NC, at least on your part, and you are reorganizing your life again and thoughts about this whole situation. While I agree with some of the more critical posters on here that you seem to be looking for validation for dumping the guy, I must say that it is understandable. When everybody sees your SO as a different person, it must be hard to talk about such things with them. That is, I feel, the primary reason why you've come to LS. As for this war of postings with PorkRinds, I think he doesn't mean to come off as so critical (and I'm going on a limb here and assuming he's male ). He's essentially saying that if you were unhappy, you don't need a reason to dump the dude and get happy. And thus the blame game goes on. But I feel that you've at least in part, accepted your blame, which is why you've started to change. You've accepted that you allowed this behavior. You've accepted that you've made extraordinary exceptions for someone you who you believe at the end of the day was not worth those exceptions. That is all you can ask for yourself. I'm a firm believer that it is harder to wait for somebody else to do something/change, than it is to have yourself do something/change. So good for you. Whatever happens, will happen: and whether it will end or mend, is quite irrelevant. Now, just pick up the pieces and keep living. As for PorkRinds, I appreciate your taking the extraordinary time and effort to post your opinions to every sentence the OP/other posters have stated. It was very entertaining.

[Zapbasket]

Wow, lots of thoughts to reply to. Thanks for all the input. I was off LS since yesterday afternoon after receiving a text from N. asking if I was ready to talk. I wasn't, not quite, but I didn't want to keep putting him off as I've been on the other side of a communication "pause" and it's a tough place to be. So I went to his place and really laid it out to him.

 

Basically I said that this relationship could not continue the way it has gone on for the past year. I enumerated the ways I felt he didn't treat me acceptably and then said I could only imagine that all the conflict and frustration didn't feel good or acceptable to him, either. He agreed, and said I could often be very hard on him. I acknowledged that to be true and apologized. He seemed receptive so I told him that I felt myself getting more and more rigid on the one point of him not treating me as I would like to be treated, because I felt like nothing I said to him inspired him to adjust his behavior.

 

I said I felt often like I was dating two N.'s--one who was sweet and pleasant to be around, and another who seemed compelled to be antagonistic and belittling. He acknowledged that that seemed to be an accurate description and he said he really wanted to change those aspects of himself. He'd gone to the library and picked up some books--one on learning patience, one on handling anger, and another on how to communicate in relationships. He said he wanted to change not only for me and the relationship, but for himself.

 

I asked him, "You've said before that you understand what your part is in the problem, and that you want to change. But my problem now is that I'm looking back on a year of no change. So what will be different this time?" He said he'd been talking to his sister about us, and both he and his mother have told me on numerous occasions that we're a lot alike in that we're both very sensitive. Growing up, N. used to tease this sister a lot and she would get upset to tears, whereas their younger sister would just dish it right back at him, unfazed.

 

He admitted that in the beginning he did feel I was oversensitive. But thanks in part to his talks with his sister, he changed his perception of me to simply, "sensitive." He said, "You are a sensitive person and I have realized that there are a lot of wonderful things that come with that." He said he had a lot of things to work on and all he could say was that our relationship was teaching him a lot, that he really does love me, and that he was committed to doing the work to making our relationship better.

 

I said that it made me feel bad to always have to get upset at him for his behavior. Not that I felt I wasn't justified, but that I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to work so hard to get my needs met. I was bluntly honest with him, saying I felt that possibly our current dynamic is a sign that I don't accept him for who he is, and that my aim is not for him to be who I need him to be, but for both of us to be in a relationship--with each other or with other people if it comes to that--that we both feel meets our needs and validates who we fundamentally are. I admitted that I struggle with the question of whether I should fight for this relationship by continuing to work on how I draw and maintain boundaries, and by insisting that our dynamic change through behavioral modifications from him as well as me, or whether I should walk away if I so consistently feel unhappy with N's treatment of me. He repeatedly said he felt the changes I ask for are reasonable and achievable and things he needs to work on regardless.

 

So there it is. I didn't end it, but I set up what I hope was a firm boundary. I have never before so calmly, explicitly, and firmly asked for what I need in an intimate relationship. I feel like before I walk away from anyone, I at least need to be capable of doing that; otherwise the other person has no chance. I feel a clarity about what I really want that I honestly have never felt before. I am going out of town to see friends and family next week for three weeks, so that gives us both some time to sit on this conversation. Right now I don't feel that confident that this is "The One" for me, but I do believe that with very straightforward, clear communication, things can turn around. I feel I was VERY, UNMISTAKABLY clear for probably the first time ever in my life, so something must happen, one way or another.

[Zapbasket]

GreenCove,

 

It's crazy, but when I read your posts on this thread, I swear to you that you were describing me, and you sound exactly like my ex. We broke up on April 2nd.

 

Prior to our breakup I starting counseling, actively doing group communication therapy, and have read numerous books to help change my most basic beliefs and attitudes towards connectedness and emotions.

 

Today I realize that she had repeatedly put herself out there to try and help me each time, and it never worked until I took responsibility on my own.

Although we aren't talking at this present moment (and I want her back), I understand that changing must come from the right place, from within me. And it begins with accepting that my conflicts, my skewed views of how things are and what I see are real, and that I our dynamic was not healthy, and the problem was with me and not her.

 

It was a hard pill to swallow. But after accepting the reality and levity of the situation, and seeking help, enacting changes was the easy part. The first step was difficult.

 

Hopefully he will realize that and change to a more secure personality and less emotionally labile.

 

Hey IceWeasel, I'm sorry about your breakup. You sound like you are handling everything in a very mature way, turning your experience with this woman into a growth opportunity for you rather than a slammed door. I wish there were more people in the dating pool like you!

 

I hope N. proves to be like you, sincerely taking active steps to improve his bad behaviors.

[Eve]

GC, well done you!

 

Have a nice break.

 

Only time will tell if your bf means what he has said.

 

Hope he turns himself around.

 

Oh, and it's ok to be a 'sensitive' person. Keep an eye on how he uses that one in the future as he attempts change.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[iceweasel6]

Hey IceWeasel, I'm sorry about your breakup. You sound like you are handling everything in a very mature way, turning your experience with this woman into a growth opportunity for you rather than a slammed door. I wish there were more people in the dating pool like you!

 

I hope N. proves to be like you, sincerely taking active steps to improve his bad behaviors.

 

Greencove,

 

Thanks for the inspiring words. You really do know your emotions and you seem to state them with such confidence and surety, - I am guessing you are a "sure" attachment style, and your significant other seems to be "avoidant".

I highly recommend that you or your significant other read the book, "Attached". It will explain the current dynamic that your observing.

Whenever you pull him close (holding hands, logging movies that you all have watched together, he views this as increasing intimacy and pulls away by engaging in protesting behavior (lashing out at you in some way). I'm almost finished and I started it a couple days ago - it's one of the better books that I am reading. You can download several pages of the book for free on Amazon and read it on your computer and you will see how great of a book it is.

 

It truly is crazy how similar you vocalize your needs and concerns, and recognize emotional dynamics - you sound identical to my ex.

The similarities are startling.

 

If you don't mind me asking, from your end what would it take for you to believe that he can make a change after a year of no effort, or trying and failing, or "you have said this before multiple times" - what would he have to say or do to indicate to you that things are different from his end, and make you feel that the dynamic has changed, and the roller-coaster ride will end?

 

I hope things work out and your significant other does make a strong effort to change, but it does require patience and understanding from your side, even though you are close to that point.

[iceweasel6]

But I think you are just kidding yourself if you believe your bf is ever going to be able to resolve his family and relationship issues w/o professional therapy of some kind. He needs to at least get to the level of maturity where he can make relationship decisions, incl. how he regards and treats his gf, without mommy's approval or intervention.

 

I gotta agree with PortRinds here, professional help will almost definitely will be a certainty. If only to get the ball rolling in the right direction and to maintain the right course.

[Zapbasket]

GC, well done you!

 

Have a nice break.

 

Only time will tell if your bf means what he has said.

 

Hope he turns himself around.

 

Oh, and it's ok to be a 'sensitive' person. Keep an eye on how he uses that one in the future as he attempts change.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

Thanks, Eve

 

It's not just N. that hopefully will effect some changes. I feel like I'm on the cusp of some major developments (for me). Mainly, this one point: that if I feel I'm not getting what I need out of a relationship, that is a valid feeling, even IF there are things I personally can do to make the relationship more fulfilling to me.

 

I realize this is "obvious" in many ways, but to me it never has been obvious. Whenever things don't feel right in a relationship, I blame myself. That's different from looking objectively at what I might be contributing to the relationship to make it unfulfilling. That's me beating myself up for things that oftentimes are partially or even completely out of my control, given I'm only a part of the equation.

 

When I blame myself, it's usually along the lines of labeling myself as "oversensitive" and maintaining too-high expectations of people. And it is true that I am sensitive and I am easily irked by stupid people, crude people, shallow people, people who seem never to examine the meaning of anything or examine their behaviors and motivations. I'm an intense person and I often grow frustrated with trivial conversation and what I perceive to be the triviality of our culture at large. So, when I start to feel unhappy in a relationship, I blame these attributes of myself as the cause.

 

Which, ironically, leads me to force myself to sustain NO expectations of people...to force myself to overlook or excuse every insensitive, selfish, crude behavior...to maintain almost no boundaries. This creates a lot of internal dissonance in me, because I cannot lie to myself about feeling unhappy and lonely amidst my unmet needs and inability to assert my needs to the other person. And when this dissonance reaches its climax, I do come down very hard on the other person. But FOR THE WRONG THINGS. And so my communication is completely unproductive and only feels harsh...even though its root is more often than not perfectly valid.

 

I think the change I made this time, with N., is that I cleaned up all of that white-noise of misplaced self-blame, and clearly communicated that his current behaviors do not fulfill my needs, and that they are *my needs,* not a blanket condemnation of his character or even of his behavior, that for someone else his behaviors might be perfectly acceptable. And I feel in this way I managed to respect him, as well as myself.

 

Regardless of what ends up happening in this relationship, I feel I, at least, am on the right track...and ultimately with that it can only get better from here.

[Zapbasket]

Your welcome AND thank you, Iceweasel.

 

You really do know your emotions and you seem to state them with such confidence and surety

 

It would seem that way, wouldn't it? I use words well so it gives the impression often of confidence and self-awareness even at the times when neither are present. It's a bummer because then my communications are forceful even when they're inaccurate

 

I highly recommend that you or your significant other read the book, "Attached". It will explain the current dynamic that your observing.

Whenever you pull him close (holding hands, logging movies that you all have watched together, he views this as increasing intimacy and pulls away by engaging in protesting behavior (lashing out at you in some way).

 

Funny, I was looking up possible books last night for me to read, and I encountered that book. It looks good. I'm going to see if it's at the library.

 

The dynamic you describe sounds accurate regarding N. and me. I think he only very partially recognizes this dynamic, based on what he said in our conversation Wednesday evening. One thing that's difficult is that I come from a part of the country where it's very common for people to very openly pursue therapy. Where I live now and where he is from (a very rural area), it's not so common. So this emotional talk that people like you and me seem comfortable with is very threatening for people like N. When he acknowledged his bad behaviors during our discussion, he said to me that admitting these flaws and articulating them was very difficult for him...and I believe that. I have to try to be understanding about that. I mean, self-awareness isn't manifest primarily in how much therapy a person has had; it's in a person's ability to sustain a certain humility about their shortcomings, and to sustain the commitment to minimize them. He deserves one more chance. Thanks for the book recommendation.

 

If you don't mind me asking, from your end what would it take for you to believe that he can make a change after a year of no effort, or trying and failing, or "you have said this before multiple times" - what would he have to say or do to indicate to you that things are different from his end, and make you feel that the dynamic has changed, and the roller-coaster ride will end?

 

There's not one thing he could say, or one thing he could do, that will make me feel the dynamic is truly changing. It's just going to have to feel different. If he truly recognizes a need--for his own good rather than only for the good of our relationship--to modify some of his behaviors, then the efforts he makes and the small successes will increasingly put him at ease with himself and with me, especially if on my end I'm also striving to improve myself in the ways this relationship has made me see I need to improve, and that process is making me feel more at peace with myself and my feelings and consequently, more at peace with our relationship. Ideally, we'd both come to feel much more personally fulfilled and validated in this relationship, and it would draw us closer together. But it's also possible that if we both improve ourselves, we'll mutually recognize that this relationship is not the right one for us. Either outcome, I think, marks a huge improvement.

 

This is of course the ideal scenario. I don't know how insightful, truly, he is or how ready he is to modify his behavior. If nothing begins to shift, I will, sadly, run out of patience. But I think I have a good mindset as I give this relationship one final try--patient, but not pushover-patient. Understanding, but not entertaining excuses of false hopes or false promises. Willing to make an effort, as well.

[sunshinegirl]

GC,

 

While I want to be a voice of support for you, I have to say I was disappointed to hear the outcome of your conversation.

 

Do you realize you have just set yourself up to wait months on end to watch him--at best--make progress in fits and starts? If his issues run as deep as some are suggesting here, it will take years of therapy for him to work it through.

 

I am not a betting woman, but I strongly believe that the eventual outcome of this relationship is still going to be a breakup, with you mourning that he didn't make enough change for you to work well together, but now looking back at having spent 2 or 2+ years of your life with this man (instead of one) when these very issues were present from the earliest weeks together.

 

A better outcome for YOU would have been for you to split now, and let him work on his issues by himself. You realize you have made your happiness dependent on him and how much/how well he works out his issues?

[Zapbasket]

GC,

 

While I want to be a voice of support for you, I have to say I was disappointed to hear the outcome of your conversation.

 

Do you realize you have just set yourself up to wait months on end to watch him--at best--make progress in fits and starts? If his issues run as deep as some are suggesting here, it will take years of therapy for him to work it through.

 

I am not a betting woman, but I strongly believe that the eventual outcome of this relationship is still going to be a breakup, with you mourning that he didn't make enough change for you to work well together, but now looking back at having spent 2 or 2+ years of your life with this man (instead of one) when these very issues were present from the earliest weeks together.

 

A better outcome for YOU would have been for you to split now, and let him work on his issues by himself. You realize you have made your happiness dependent on him and how much/how well he works out his issues?

 

I totally agree with you, and I see it, too. When I went to his house the other day, I began our conversation not sure what was going to come out of my mouth--whether I was going to end it then and there, or whether I was going to lay it all out and give it one more chance. Because I was feeling really calm and confident in my convictions, I felt capable of giving this one more chance. And that is genuine. But the other piece of the truth is that I am out of patience for his unsavory behaviors. Where before I have felt frustration, now I feel a coldness and a dark certainty.

 

For example, during our conversation he offered me a glass of water. I said, "Please, thanks." He got a glass and proceeded to fill it only about 1/4 of the way with water. At first I was amused as I peered into the glass, and I smiled and said, "Is that it?" And he teased that I never finish my water so that was all he was going to give me. I laughed and said, "Well, I'm pretty thirsty; I could use a full glass." Whereupon he filled it only half way and laughed mischievously. I said, "Come on now; I really do want a full glass of water." He poured out a small trickle. I started to feel annoyed and said, "Okay, seriously, could you please just pour me a full glass of water?" And he filled it so that the water overflowed and spilled into my lap.

 

And then I was really annoyed. I said, "This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about." He said, "Why are you making such a big deal out of this? It's not a big deal." I said, "You're right, my wanting a full glass of water is not a big deal. It's not me who is making a big deal out of this simple thing. All you had to do was pour me the amount I asked and that would be that." I asked him, "Would you have dared do this with your grandmother? With my mother? With someone at your job?" He admitted that no, he would not have done it. I pursued, "Then why would you do it with me? That's the big question that needs to be worked out."

 

He apologized, but inwardly I felt that cold, dark conviction from my inner voice. It's beyond anger or frustration, and feels very close to, "I'm done." I spoke with my mom yesterday and told her some of what was going on. I said that I didn't feel much sense anymore that this relationship was going to last. I am pretty confident that I'm not going to give this another year if things don't change. And sadly, I know that the kind of change that needs to happen on his end is one that will come about even ideally in fits and starts, and I no longer have the patience for a rollercoaster of fits and starts. So perhaps a part of me is being disingenuous, even while that is not my true intent at all.

 

My true intent is that I know it's possible at times to discover too late how you were damaging a relationship. I have been there and the heartache is awful, because you know you are finally ready to change as you finally see the light, but the person whom you adversely affected no longer has interest growing and changing with you. You've destroyed their faith in you. All I wished for was one more chance; when that was not granted, all I could do was work on myself in light of the new things I'd learned. And ultimately it was not a bad thing.

 

But now that I am in the other role, I'm trying to extend some embodiment of the Golden Rule and give him the chance I'd wish to have were I in his shoes. At the same time, I feel comfortable in the knowledge that even the most saintly version of the Golden Rule does not involve endless patience. I'm not a saint, and I don't want to be one. I'm also going to turn 35 in September; I'm anticipating that will be a bit jarring, and I don't think I can tolerate being in this relationship on that birthday if there are not significant changes.

 

I hope this reasoning is sound. It feels so, to me. Perhaps the bottom line is what you say, though, SSG--that I should have ended it on Wednesday. I will find that out soon enough, no? *fingers crossed*

[Zapbasket]

Here's the key right here.

 

When your bf is interacting with you and his mother, generally, they are trying to make you play the role of his sister in their family dynamic.

 

Your bf and his family probably need family counseling. This man has all sorts of issues. He is way too entangled with his mother. The best thing that could possibly happen for your relationship with him is for the two of you to get as far away from his mother as possible, but that's not really practical based on the situation you described.

 

Whether or not you have the patience to wait for him, or possibly to even participate in whatever therapy his family gets involved in, is entirely up to you.

 

But I think you are just kidding yourself if you believe your bf is ever going to be able to resolve his family and relationship issues w/o professional therapy of some kind. He needs to at least get to the level of maturity where he can make relationship decisions, incl. how he regards and treats his gf, without mommy's approval or intervention.

 

PorkRinds, let me ask you: if you were in my boyfriend's shoes, 1) what would you do, and 2) what would you like to see your girlfriend--a woman in my shoes--do?

[Zapbasket]

Thanks, PorkRinds. So in a nutshell, you think he should man up, and I should support him, but only if he mans up?

 

I also just wanted to point out to readers of this thread that SSG made some really good points at the bottom of the previous page, and I responded; my response ended up at the end of the previous page. (I know I tend to get lost when threads start to get long.)

[xxoo]

For example, during our conversation he offered me a glass of water. I said, "Please, thanks." He got a glass and proceeded to fill it only about 1/4 of the way with water. At first I was amused as I peered into the glass, and I smiled and said, "Is that it?" And he teased that I never finish my water so that was all he was going to give me. I laughed and said, "Well, I'm pretty thirsty; I could use a full glass." Whereupon he filled it only half way and laughed mischievously. I said, "Come on now; I really do want a full glass of water." He poured out a small trickle. I started to feel annoyed and said, "Okay, seriously, could you please just pour me a full glass of water?" And he filled it so that the water overflowed and spilled into my lap.

 

Wow, annoying! He did this during the discussion about your relationship issues?

 

Do you want to have kids? Because, even if he learns you won't tolerate this stuff, he will probably engage in the same behavior with his kids--especially if this stuff was the norm for him growing up. And they'll probably hate it as much as you do.