Author NickFeek Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 so throw out anything and everything that has NOT been working for you two... IF you know it doesn't work - stop trying to force it to look like it's supposed to work. start with what DOES work - let go of the rest! What I really like about this is how concrete we can get with it. I want us to work up a list this weekend of what works for both of us, what doesn't work for both of us, and those things in the middle we can't yet agree on.
2sunny Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Based on what she's said, she wants respect for the work she does, the money she provides to support the family, AND who she is as a person. i'd LOVE to understand exactly what SHE thinks this should look like for HER! ask her to be specific! IF she thinks that YOU are supposed to be happy and supportive of her being absent to make more money - then YOU know her idea of you supporting her is never going to work for YOU. what is it that she she's asking you? i'm wondering IF she expects you to be a happy husband while the wife is completely void of fulfilling any role as wife and mother - but fills the void with working and money? ask her - is that what SHE expects?
Author NickFeek Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 i'd LOVE to understand exactly what SHE thinks this should look like for HER! ask her to be specific! IF she thinks that YOU are supposed to be happy and supportive of her being absent to make more money - then YOU know her idea of you supporting her is never going to work for YOU. what is it that she she's asking you? i'm wondering IF she expects you to be a happy husband while the wife is completely void of fulfilling any role as wife and mother - but fills the void with working and money? ask her - is that what SHE expects? This strikes at the heart of both our underlying conflict and our everyday existence. I have asked her this, and she has said she understands my concerns & needs, and does not want to be just a workhorse or ATM for the kids & me. So then we come up with changes we agree will make things better - earlier nights coming home, more date nights, more quality time in general, more contact throughout the day. Some of these get implemented, some don't. Some stick, others dwindle back to status quo. THIS is what gets me questioning what she really wants. And I think she's in the midst of questioning the same thing. I've asked her a few times, does she think she'd be happier on her own. Her answer lately is either sometimes or I don't know. It's never outright yes or no. She's in conflict. Somewhat like me, she wants to be able to do what she wants with not much compromise or sacrifice. And to my mind, until she can answer for certain what will make her happier, she won't realize deep down what kinds of sacrifices she'll have to CONSISTENTLY make for us to establish a workable & moderately satisfying situation.
trippi1432 Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 my perspective on this concept is a bit different. Trippi - i value your perspective too - but i'd like to point out my experience with this concept. what one offers into the R matters. if there are TWO people - and each is bringing in a broken self - then how can anyone expect the R to be happy if one is broken and that's what is in the mix? and what IF both people bring their broken self into that mix also? To be honest 2Sunny, I don't think there and many people who do not have something in their lives, their past, that would qualify them as totally healthy and not have some broken baggage that has to be dealt with. However, it is what Nick and his wife have together that defines their marriage...something more deeper than just him, her, money, jobs. That seems to be what Nick is looking for and hopefully something she is interested in looking for as well unless the affair has derailed that desire. And by desire, I am not referring to sexual needs, I am referring to the desire in her heart to want to continue a marriage...or move forward on her own to find herself. Not just Nicks decision...an affair changes both people, their perspectives, their wants and their needs. we are meant to be individuals first - then partners after that. so - ideally, in my experience - IF both people are in that R as healthy people all on their own... and that is what enters the R - then THAT is a great place to start! then two healthy people bringing positive experience and perspective with balance and honesty offer THAT into a R where it can grow so they lift each other up, support each other and appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of the other. I don't disagree with this, but even two healthy people can start off a long term marriage that becomes unhealthy after years together....influence, stress, financial difficulties, family background...etc. It is what they have together in the most primordial base that will define them both. Not a "where you end and I begin" statement...more whether they can ever get back to the love that was there before the kids, college, the jobs, the want for the material things that they feel bring them security now...perhaps the want and need for those things indicate he fact that we all tend to lose sight in our security and placing that feeling of safe in someone else.... Who is to say that Mrs. Feek has not set boundaries that are healthy for her...healthy for her to continue to provide for her 3 children and maintain a lifestyle that both Nick seems to want to continue given by his want to be the breadwinner? Is that concept one that she shares or one that Nick himself is at odds with? Should she set a healthy boundary that this is Nicks issue to resolve within himself or should she take that on as she is the reason he feels emasculated? Obviously the boundaries need work here on both sides to make a safe environment for the marriage to thrive. everyone is allowed to decide what that boundary should look like for them as individuals! no one else should decide that for them... but communicating with loved ones with HONESTY what the boundary looks like certainly helps to maintain good balance. someone ELSE will NEVER define who i am. i am who i am - then i take that self into my R. IF i were taking broken self into it... i should expect to get half a R at best... and if both are troubled - i should expect it to look like a total drag. a battle the whole way through. i see it in action all the time - THAT battle drags everyone down. this is a tough concept to convey by typing! grrrr Agreed, it is a tough concept to convey. All too often, boundaries are challenged, perceptions are changed and boundaries redefined. However nothing can be forced. Healthy relationships, boundaries are flexible...lowered to create intimacy, raised to promote safety. Boundaries also need to known...no one can read someone's mind to know what they are...
Author NickFeek Posted September 3, 2011 Author Posted September 3, 2011 All very well said, trippi. And no question my wife is trying to reconcile boundaries that are healthy for her with needs that are missing for me, AND that for us to do this successfully we need to be willing to change & be flexible on both sides.
2sunny Posted September 8, 2011 Posted September 8, 2011 All very well said, trippi. And no question my wife is trying to reconcile boundaries that are healthy for her with needs that are missing for me, AND that for us to do this successfully we need to be willing to change & be flexible on both sides. give an explanation of what her "reconciling healthy boundaries" refers to. because - it's possible that her healthy boundary includes working a whole bunch... and you just need to get used to it... it's possible, yes? so - what you are left with is deciding what YOU are willing to live with - compromise about - and whether or not that might bring you happiness... but there's no way of knowing unless YOU BOTH get HONEST! tell her what you want and need! list all your deal breakers too! have her do hers! then align the lists and see if any of them match, or IF you can compromise - or if you should both just call it a day... let's get to what you really have and don't have here... and see WHAT changes CAN be made and which ones you can't.
Author NickFeek Posted September 8, 2011 Author Posted September 8, 2011 give an explanation of what her "reconciling healthy boundaries" refers to. because - it's possible that her healthy boundary includes working a whole bunch... and you just need to get used to it... it's possible, yes? Her boundaries absolutely include that, but in a more subtle way. In other words, she knows that the recent changes we've started making & have talked about more concretely have to be reliable & permanent on the whole, but that I need to respect & trust her judgment. so - what you are left with is deciding what YOU are willing to live with - compromise about - and whether or not that might bring you happiness... but there's no way of knowing unless YOU BOTH get HONEST! tell her what you want and need! list all your deal breakers too! have her do hers! then align the lists and see if any of them match, or IF you can compromise - or if you should both just call it a day... let's get to what you really have and don't have here... and see WHAT changes CAN be made and which ones you can't. I have been struggling all through this crisis, and really for years before, with what I can live with. The great thing about how we're going over this in counseling now is that the sorting out of who has what issue & where they come from is making it MUCH easier to find our true boundaries, without all the cloudiness of emotional head-butting & confusion. Funny, but I suggested the same thing to her in this way: 1. List what things work for both of us already; 2. List what we agree does not work; 3. List what things we disagree on. The first will establish that we still have quite a bit that works. The second will show that we have things we can both change without conflict. The third is the one that will be toughest, and may contain a deal breaker or two. But it's like you said - be specific. It's the only way to get to the truth.
2sunny Posted September 8, 2011 Posted September 8, 2011 Her boundaries absolutely include that, but in a more subtle way. In other words, she knows that the recent changes we've started making & have talked about more concretely have to be reliable & permanent on the whole, but that I need to respect & trust her judgment. I have been struggling all through this crisis, and really for years before, with what I can live with. The great thing about how we're going over this in counseling now is that the sorting out of who has what issue & where they come from is making it MUCH easier to find our true boundaries, without all the cloudiness of emotional head-butting & confusion. Funny, but I suggested the same thing to her in this way: 1. List what things work for both of us already; 2. List what we agree does not work; 3. List what things we disagree on. The first will establish that we still have quite a bit that works. The second will show that we have things we can both change without conflict. The third is the one that will be toughest, and may contain a deal breaker or two. But it's like you said - be specific. It's the only way to get to the truth. no need to delay - unless of course you really don't want to know what truth is revealed... action... ACTION!!! start DOING!
Author NickFeek Posted September 9, 2011 Author Posted September 9, 2011 [/b] no need to delay - unless of course you really don't want to know what truth is revealed... action... ACTION!!! start DOING! We've been starting a pattern of going out for a drink just about every week after our counseling session. It's a good time for us to do things like this - away from home & the kids.
2sunny Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 We've been starting a pattern of going out for a drink just about every week after our counseling session. It's a good time for us to do things like this - away from home & the kids. this is good! has she been coming home from work earlier/regularly? what are you doing to fulfill her needs too?
Author NickFeek Posted September 9, 2011 Author Posted September 9, 2011 this is good! has she been coming home from work earlier/regularly? what are you doing to fulfill her needs too? Earlier at times, though not quite regularly yet. But definite improvement. Her main need from me right now is to give her space to work without getting on her case every day. And I'm doing that. These are small but crucial changes, and seem to be the only way right now to lay down the bedrock, so to speak. Feels kind of tepid, but I've been too heated & too expecting of big changes quickly, so maybe this is how things should progress in the real world.
2sunny Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 Earlier at times, though not quite regularly yet. But definite improvement. Her main need from me right now is to give her space to work without getting on her case every day. And I'm doing that. These are small but crucial changes, and seem to be the only way right now to lay down the bedrock, so to speak. Feels kind of tepid, but I've been too heated & too expecting of big changes quickly, so maybe this is how things should progress in the real world. not in my world Nick - IF people are miserable and motivated to change - they don't wade into the waters - ponder things for months - they start changing everything in order to GET RESULTS! the passive nature and approach you two have may very well have you in a similar place when your married 40 years. to fear change (knowing that's what could bring happiness) is a very sad thing to watch.
Author NickFeek Posted September 9, 2011 Author Posted September 9, 2011 [/b] not in my world Nick - IF people are miserable and motivated to change - they don't wade into the waters - ponder things for months - they start changing everything in order to GET RESULTS! the passive nature and approach you two have may very well have you in a similar place when your married 40 years. to fear change (knowing that's what could bring happiness) is a very sad thing to watch. The thing is, in the real world, it can never be black and white. Meaning it can't ALL be quick change or ALL slow change. Some things are more conducive to changing with little or no deliberation. Others are more delicate, ESPECIALLY when dealing with two or more people. So some things I/we have changed, and others we need to figure out first & carefully determine what we both can live with, because the experience of those things is SHARED. Unilateral decisions aren't always possible.
trippi1432 Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 The thing is, in the real world, it can never be black and white. Meaning it can't ALL be quick change or ALL slow change. Some things are more conducive to changing with little or no deliberation. Others are more delicate, ESPECIALLY when dealing with two or more people. So some things I/we have changed, and others we need to figure out first & carefully determine what we both can live with, because the experience of those things is SHARED. Unilateral decisions aren't always possible. This I have to agree with....everyone can see something in their relationships that need to change...some changes are small and bring about good results...other, more intense change can make or break a relationship. Just because one person is not happy does not give anyone cause to blindside another person with those changes. In a relationship, the changes have to be mutual...not one-sided due to just one person's unhappiness. It's not black and white...it's inclusive of the life two people share and how to be happy in it without over-stepping each other's boundaries.
Author NickFeek Posted September 10, 2011 Author Posted September 10, 2011 This I have to agree with....everyone can see something in their relationships that need to change...some changes are small and bring about good results...other, more intense change can make or break a relationship. Just because one person is not happy does not give anyone cause to blindside another person with those changes. In a relationship, the changes have to be mutual...not one-sided due to just one person's unhappiness. It's not black and white...it's inclusive of the life two people share and how to be happy in it without over-stepping each other's boundaries. Well put! This is exactly where we are now.
tojaz Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 The thing is, in the real world, it can never be black and white. Meaning it can't ALL be quick change or ALL slow change. Some things are more conducive to changing with little or no deliberation. Others are more delicate, ESPECIALLY when dealing with two or more people. So some things I/we have changed, and others we need to figure out first & carefully determine what we both can live with, because the experience of those things is SHARED. Unilateral decisions aren't always possible. BY JOVE I THINK HES GOT IT! Its a lot like a house Nick, sure that new addition would be great and maybe its something you really need, but you cant just run home and start knocking walls down. The right moves have to be made to keep the original structure intact and strong so that the rest can be built off of it. Plans may have to be modified, but there is always a way so long as you go about it without having the roof come down on you. TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 BY JOVE I THINK HES GOT IT! Its a lot like a house Nick, sure that new addition would be great and maybe its something you really need, but you cant just run home and start knocking walls down. The right moves have to be made to keep the original structure intact and strong so that the rest can be built off of it. Plans may have to be modified, but there is always a way so long as you go about it without having the roof come down on you. TOJAZ That is a really good way to describe it. And lately I feel like we've really been reading the same building plans, so to speak, so we're working on building the same additions.
2sunny Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 hey Nick... what's happening? what changes have you been able to implement into your lives together?
Author NickFeek Posted October 4, 2011 Author Posted October 4, 2011 hey Nick... what's happening? what changes have you been able to implement into your lives together? Hey 2sunny, thanks for checking in. We're making slow but steady improvement. She's getting home earlier more often. We're spending more time together. Sessions are going well - lots of old ground to sift through & a few surprises too. I feel like what we have now is more of a partnership, and we've established a solid & more satisfying base of operations. It's a launching pad, really, because we're not nearly where we need to be yet. But there's a lot less hashing out of recent history & more focus on how we BOTH can change things.
2sunny Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 good to hear! change is very good! i was taught that in order to move forward (and to INSTILL CHANGE) that i didn't need to ask myself "why" - i only needed to ask myself "how can i make this NEVER look like it used to look"!
Author NickFeek Posted October 4, 2011 Author Posted October 4, 2011 good to hear! change is very good! i was taught that in order to move forward (and to INSTILL CHANGE) that i didn't need to ask myself "why" - i only needed to ask myself "how can i make this NEVER look like it used to look"! Boy is that dead on! Each week as things progress & change, I make a point to restate that our goal is NOT to restore things to the way they were, but to build/create something that is BETTER.
Tiberius Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 All very well said, trippi. And no question my wife is trying to reconcile boundaries that are healthy for her with needs that are missing for me, AND that for us to do this successfully we need to be willing to change & be flexible on both sides. You mean your wife finally realized what you want is relevant too?
Author NickFeek Posted October 4, 2011 Author Posted October 4, 2011 You mean your wife finally realized what you want is relevant too? Ha yes! It remains to be seen how far we can both go with the changes we're making, and how far we NEED to go to sustain this, but at least now we're working from a level playing field.
Afishwithabike Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Nick - I've been thinking of you and your family. Any updates?
findingnemo Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Wow! It's taken me days to read all the pages in this thread. Nick, I hope you come back with an update soon. I didn't know that a man can fight this hard for his M. Obviously I haven't met that kind of man before. I so hope for you that it's all working out. I hope that your W has addressed her issues. I actually like her and understand her issues regarding her job. If you ever get to rid this, please give us a short update. Good luck!
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