2sunny Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) the only way i grew- was to completely look at how i was participating... because i was a woman who liked to be the victim - i did the pity party "look at what he does to me!" but when i realized what i was doing - BY NOT DOING ANYTHING - THAT - doing nothing was actually SOMETHING! i was completely the victim of SELF! i ALLOWED all this crap to "happen" - yet i DID nothing about it. back THEN - i got to blame my then husband - so HE was at fault... but really, I WAS TO BLAME - because when i looked long and hard - I ALLOWED IT ALL. i am to blame for DOING NOTHING. that is where i used to be... that was my life for SO LONG... NEVER again... never - or the spirit of me will surely die! i will never be that wimpy gal that goes along with what's completely backwards by doing nothing (not participating) and staying silent anymore... as long as she's not doing anything = she figures she can blame it all on you. Edited May 13, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted May 13, 2011 Author Posted May 13, 2011 the only way i grew- was to completely look at how i was participating... because i was a woman who liked to be the victim - i did the pity party "look at what he does to me!" but when i realized what i was doing - BY NOT DOING ANYTHING - THAT - doing nothing was actually SOMETHING! i was completely the victim of SELF! i ALLOWED all this crap to "happen" - yet i DID nothing about it. back THEN - i got to blame my then husband - so HE was at fault... but really, I WAS TO BLAME - because when i looked long and hard - I ALLOWED IT ALL. i am to blame for DOING NOTHING. that is where i used to be... that was my life for SO LONG... NEVER again... never - or the spirit of me will surely die! i will never be that wimpy gal that goes along with what's completely backwards by doing nothing (not participating) and staying silent anymore... as long as she's not doing anything = she figures she can blame it all on you. I was just having a similar discussion with someone I rely on here. He said that, because I've been willing to "go along" with the dynamic as it's been for years, she's rarely if ever been pressured to examine her intimacy issues. And that my cheating cut to the core of that in a way that she can no longer ignore. And I CERTAINLY can't ignore it. She will either need to open up & finally decide to address these things, or she'll be content to live life cut off from all of that inside her, not to mention any deep one-on-one intimate relationship in her future. And either way she'll have to figure it out on her own. Try as I might have, I'm no help to her, and only SHE can do the work.
2sunny Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I was just having a similar discussion with someone I rely on here. He said that, because I've been willing to "go along" with the dynamic as it's been for years, she's rarely if ever been pressured to examine her intimacy issues. And that my cheating cut to the core of that in a way that she can no longer ignore. And I CERTAINLY can't ignore it. She will either need to open up & finally decide to address these things, or she'll be content to live life cut off from all of that inside her, not to mention any deep one-on-one intimate relationship in her future. And either way she'll have to figure it out on her own. Try as I might have, I'm no help to her, and only SHE can do the work. this much is certain - as long as you are around - she can blame you for everything - including her ability to do nothing. she GETS to blame it all on you - because she won't look at the way she CHOOSES to participate. when she can no longer blame you - i wonder who she'll find to blame?
Author NickFeek Posted May 13, 2011 Author Posted May 13, 2011 this much is certain - as long as you are around - she can blame you for everything - including her ability to do nothing. she GETS to blame it all on you - because she won't look at the way she CHOOSES to participate. when she can no longer blame you - i wonder who she'll find to blame? Whatever happens it's going to hurt her like hell. I think I've been her buffer from the outside world for a while.
2sunny Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 seems easier to continue blaming you - that way she doesn't need to do a thing except hide away by working. when you stop playing her familiar role - you will be free of being the victim of her blame game. YOU can't help HER get happy - that is a gift YOU can give to YOURSELF though... but you won't be able to as long as you continue to be her whipping post.
Author NickFeek Posted May 13, 2011 Author Posted May 13, 2011 seems easier to continue blaming you - that way she doesn't need to do a thing except hide away by working. when you stop playing her familiar role - you will be free of being the victim of her blame game. YOU can't help HER get happy - that is a gift YOU can give to YOURSELF though... but you won't be able to as long as you continue to be her whipping post. Oh that's a definite, and I guess even when I DO leave she can still continue to blame me. I've been trying so many years to get her happy, or at least set her on a path where she can do it herself. Since it seems nothing will work, it IS time for me to find happiness, and just hope for the best for her.
trippi1432 Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Nick - Just to interject....will you be okay if she does change after you decide to leave? You are right that the infidelity gives you absolutely no bargaining power in the topic of your sex life now, but it doesn't help your credibility in other areas as well. Divorce is a life changing event...everyone suffers, but from that you are not the only one that might be reborn.
Author NickFeek Posted May 13, 2011 Author Posted May 13, 2011 Nick - Just to interject....will you be okay if she does change after you decide to leave? You are right that the infidelity gives you absolutely no bargaining power in the topic of your sex life now, but it doesn't help your credibility in other areas as well. Divorce is a life changing event...everyone suffers, but from that you are not the only one that might be reborn. I really really hope she does change. It's something I've been advocating for 20 years or more. I don't want anyone ultimately to be unhappy. She may actually have a better chance of being reborn elsewhere, and if so that's better than her being repressed and with me. I agree my credibility has been shot to hell. I've told her often that there's probably nothing I can say or do at the moment that could change her mind on that. If she ever does come around to trusting me again, it would take both effort AND time. I guess the bottom line is I'm tired. Tired of fighting for her to bust out of her prison. Tired of waiting. Tired of struggling to make all this work. I think even if we have a chance of staying together, a break would be good for both of us.
change Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 I really really hope she does change. It's something I've been advocating for 20 years or more. I don't want anyone ultimately to be unhappy. She may actually have a better chance of being reborn elsewhere, and if so that's better than her being repressed and with me. I agree my credibility has been shot to hell. I've told her often that there's probably nothing I can say or do at the moment that could change her mind on that. If she ever does come around to trusting me again, it would take both effort AND time. I guess the bottom line is I'm tired. Tired of fighting for her to bust out of her prison. Tired of waiting. Tired of struggling to make all this work. I think even if we have a chance of staying together, a break would be good for both of us. I think an important part of the question about how you would feel if she did change when you leave is this... my stbxw left me because I had major clinical depression that I refused to treat that led to a whole host of other issues. In the 1.5 months since she's left, I've turned my whole life around. I'm getting a better job, I'm on antidepressants and in treatment, and I'm making huge personal changes that I've been too afraid and apathetic to make for years. In short, I'm doing everything she ever said I needed to do to make our marriage happy and myself happy. She oscillates between feeling that the situation is tragic, because she has no more to give. No more energy right now to try. And then she feels intense anger, resentment and vindictiveness. The anger has led to some really inappropriate requests on her part that I can recognize as inappropriate as a healthy individual. Basically, like you and your wife -- she wants me to be happy. But when I started making those changes when I hit rock bottom, she was left wondering why I couldn't make them before we separated. If I hadn't changed, her decision to leave and divorce me would have been validated. I would have been a "lost cause" and she would have been saving herself. But because I've changed, it's thrown a huge wrench in the plan that she established for herself when she left. So... I guess I'm asking you to think about this. It really does sound like you need to leave this marriage. But if your wife does pull it together, no matter how unlikely that outcome seems, also think about how you will respond to that eventuality.
2sunny Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 change... ;-) certain things come into play: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_for_Change in short: Three factors must be present for meaningful organizational change to take place. These factors are: D = Dissatisfaction with how things are now; V = Vision of what is possible; F = First, concrete steps that can be taken towards the vision; CL = Creative Leadership to navigate toward the vision. If the product of these four factors is greater than R = Resistance, then change is possible. Because D, V, and F are multiplied, if any one is absent or low, then the product will be low and therefore not capable of overcoming the resistance. To ensure a successful change it is necessary to use influence and strategic thinking in order to create vision and identify those crucial, early steps towards it. In addition, the organization must recognize and accept the dissatisfaction that exists by communicating industry trends, leadership ideas, best practice and competitive analysis to identify the necessity for change. IF the resistance is too great - no amount of change is expected...
Author NickFeek Posted May 14, 2011 Author Posted May 14, 2011 I think an important part of the question about how you would feel if she did change when you leave is this... my stbxw left me because I had major clinical depression that I refused to treat that led to a whole host of other issues. In the 1.5 months since she's left, I've turned my whole life around. I'm getting a better job, I'm on antidepressants and in treatment, and I'm making huge personal changes that I've been too afraid and apathetic to make for years. In short, I'm doing everything she ever said I needed to do to make our marriage happy and myself happy. She oscillates between feeling that the situation is tragic, because she has no more to give. No more energy right now to try. And then she feels intense anger, resentment and vindictiveness. The anger has led to some really inappropriate requests on her part that I can recognize as inappropriate as a healthy individual. Basically, like you and your wife -- she wants me to be happy. But when I started making those changes when I hit rock bottom, she was left wondering why I couldn't make them before we separated. If I hadn't changed, her decision to leave and divorce me would have been validated. I would have been a "lost cause" and she would have been saving herself. But because I've changed, it's thrown a huge wrench in the plan that she established for herself when she left. So... I guess I'm asking you to think about this. It really does sound like you need to leave this marriage. But if your wife does pull it together, no matter how unlikely that outcome seems, also think about how you will respond to that eventuality. Thank you for sharing your story. It's good to hear someone can make a turnaround like you did, and I congratulate you. I know what kind of effort it takes to do what you did. I can't really say how I'd feel precisely for two reasons. One is because it's hard for me to imagine her making the same changes you did, though I still hope she will. Two is, like your wife, I am tired and need a break, so no matter what happens to her I don't think it will affect me for a while. PLUS, having lived with her like this for two decades, it would take more than a quick turnaround for me to trust that she's a healthier, more open person. So I guess the short answer is that if she grew like that, I'd be happy for her, relieved that I'm out of the situation no matter what, and hopeful that MAYBE someday we could try again. And in the mean time I'd find what makes me happy, what I've been missing for so long.
Author NickFeek Posted May 14, 2011 Author Posted May 14, 2011 change... ;-) certain things come into play: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_for_Change in short: Three factors must be present for meaningful organizational change to take place. These factors are: D = Dissatisfaction with how things are now; V = Vision of what is possible; F = First, concrete steps that can be taken towards the vision; CL = Creative Leadership to navigate toward the vision. If the product of these four factors is greater than R = Resistance, then change is possible. Because D, V, and F are multiplied, if any one is absent or low, then the product will be low and therefore not capable of overcoming the resistance. To ensure a successful change it is necessary to use influence and strategic thinking in order to create vision and identify those crucial, early steps towards it. In addition, the organization must recognize and accept the dissatisfaction that exists by communicating industry trends, leadership ideas, best practice and competitive analysis to identify the necessity for change. IF the resistance is too great - no amount of change is expected... I know you posted part of this before, but I'm reading it again and trying to apply it to my wife. I'd say she does not at all have D, she doesn't seem to have the optimism or faith in perseverance to have V, she has done F here & there & then retreated, and she won't take anyone's CL but her own. I seriously doubt all of that is greater than R.
2sunny Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 that's why some say that pain is a great motivator for change... it helps the resistance (strong willed people) get more in tune with opening the mind to change.
Author NickFeek Posted May 14, 2011 Author Posted May 14, 2011 that's why some say that pain is a great motivator for change... it helps the resistance (strong willed people) get more in tune with opening the mind to change. I completely agree. I've been through that often.
Author NickFeek Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 We have started to talk about the terms of potential separation. Don't know how long all this will take, and it's still very transitional, but as long as we can live with the results I'm in no rush. Her main goal is to spare the kids as much agony as possible, and that's mine too. The rest we can sort out as it comes. She's now convinced she'd be more at peace without me, which I'm in total agreement with. She was back in our hometown with the kids this weekend, and had a talk with her father. He said that there's no disputing what a great parent I am, but that in the context of the marriage I am a narcissist. I told her I think he's confusing narcissism with a desire to have your needs respected and met, and that if he knew the whole story he might think otherwise. I'm calling her at work later today, at her request, so there may be more to this story very soon.
2sunny Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 We have started to talk about the terms of potential separation. Don't know how long all this will take, and it's still very transitional, but as long as we can live with the results I'm in no rush. Her main goal is to spare the kids as much agony as possible, and that's mine too. The rest we can sort out as it comes. She's now convinced she'd be more at peace without me, which I'm in total agreement with. She was back in our hometown with the kids this weekend, and had a talk with her father. He said that there's no disputing what a great parent I am, but that in the context of the marriage I am a narcissist. I told her I think he's confusing narcissism with a desire to have your needs respected and met, and that if he knew the whole story he might think otherwise. I'm calling her at work later today, at her request, so there may be more to this story very soon. she's asked you to call her at work? that, in itself, is very odd - considering that she usually doesn't answer your calls... what was her purpose in asking you to call her there?
Author NickFeek Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Well we'll see if she answers and/or calls me back! I think she just wanted to continue the talk we were having this morning. We were basically negotiating next steps, and she had to get to a meeting. We left some things hanging. But really I have no idea what she's going to say or want to talk about.
2sunny Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 We have started to talk about the terms of potential separation. Don't know how long all this will take, and it's still very transitional, but as long as we can live with the results I'm in no rush. Her main goal is to spare the kids as much agony as possible, and that's mine too. The rest we can sort out as it comes. She's now convinced she'd be more at peace without me, which I'm in total agreement with. She was back in our hometown with the kids this weekend, and had a talk with her father. He said that there's no disputing what a great parent I am, but that in the context of the marriage I am a narcissist. I told her I think he's confusing narcissism with a desire to have your needs respected and met, and that if he knew the whole story he might think otherwise. I'm calling her at work later today, at her request, so there may be more to this story very soon. looks like she's getting things lined up with her family to possibly do all the things or her that you would normally do... as well as figuring out how to place the blame all on you. my kids have actually been better off since they realize now that i don't pretend anymore. i became unwilling to go along with the farce that was happening in trying to make everything look pretty and happy - all that pretending made me an unhappy person on the inside back then. i sacrificed my happiness to make my husband happy - only to find out that he would never be happy, no matter what - and it wasn't my job to make him happy - that was his... this is where the book Co-Dependent No More helped me. i had everything backwards back then. i had no voice and i certainly didn't know how i was supposed to feel about anything - i had handed all that power over to my husband for all of my adult life... he ruled every thought, every word and every action i ever had... i had no idea how to live without him - much less how it was supposed to be happy - thank God it's not like that anymore. looks like she's going to get busy taking care of her, and her own needs... time for you to get a plan about taking care of YOUR best interest, and your kids too. speak your truth - have a voice - it helps. also go find out how an attorney can keep her from leaving the area with your kids... i have a feeling you're going to need to enforce that rule. might as well find out what the laws are in your area. keep us updated as things go along. think positive thoughts - all day long...
liaise Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 You should tell her that with your future and relationship is directly gonna affect your kids. If she wanted to talk to you then you should listen at least what she wants?
2sunny Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 You should tell her that with your future and relationship is directly gonna affect your kids. If she wanted to talk to you then you should listen at least what she wants? it may help to read the whole thread- that's been one of the the issues - she never tells much and is rarely participating... even when he begs for information from her. she's absent - at best.
Author NickFeek Posted May 17, 2011 Author Posted May 17, 2011 looks like she's getting things lined up with her family to possibly do all the things or her that you would normally do... as well as figuring out how to place the blame all on you. my kids have actually been better off since they realize now that i don't pretend anymore. i became unwilling to go along with the farce that was happening in trying to make everything look pretty and happy - all that pretending made me an unhappy person on the inside back then. i sacrificed my happiness to make my husband happy - only to find out that he would never be happy, no matter what - and it wasn't my job to make him happy - that was his... this is where the book Co-Dependent No More helped me. i had everything backwards back then. i had no voice and i certainly didn't know how i was supposed to feel about anything - i had handed all that power over to my husband for all of my adult life... he ruled every thought, every word and every action i ever had... i had no idea how to live without him - much less how it was supposed to be happy - thank God it's not like that anymore. looks like she's going to get busy taking care of her, and her own needs... time for you to get a plan about taking care of YOUR best interest, and your kids too. speak your truth - have a voice - it helps. also go find out how an attorney can keep her from leaving the area with your kids... i have a feeling you're going to need to enforce that rule. might as well find out what the laws are in your area. keep us updated as things go along. think positive thoughts - all day long... Thanks for the positivity. Definitely needed. Good to hear things got better for your kids afterwards. We haven't said anything to our kids yet, but my oldest already suspects things aren't good. The good news is we've settled on her staying in the area, so the kids' lives hopefully will not be too adversely affected. The bad news is during that transitional time - as a compromise - I will be doing similar child care things. It's not such a bad thing. It's not the complete step that I need to take, and that she needs to experience to understand how I've enabled her to have her career, but I'd rather start this way for the kids' sakes, and get to the rest in time. I have a feeling once the school year lets out, things may change more quickly than she expects. By the way, we never talked again yesterday. I couldn't reach her, then she called late to say she was very sorry but she was just too swamped to talk, and that she promises we'll talk later. We didn't. I think this is scaring her, and she's retreating from the "next steps". She was so sad & angry Sunday & yesterday morning, and then last night & today she was all smiles & very nice. Even though we're making these plans now, some things have not changed, and won't until I move out. As you know, I'm not one to rush, but I'm going to make a point of keeping things moving forward, or we'll end up with all this endless emotional up & down.
2sunny Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 sheez, she can't find five minutes in a day's time to have a conversation? that is simply absurd, rude and absolutely ridiculous! she has her head so far up her a$$ that she's not even sure it's there! the people that know, love and care about me MAKE time! ya, i deal with BUSY people every day---> THEY make time to call, to talk and to brainstorm about SOLUTIONS to issues at hand every day! to avoid is merely a tactic that helps her stay distant, cold and unfeeling. NO ONE - and i mean - NO ONE is so bust that they don't have a few minutes to chat... THAT is NO marriage! i treat my enemies better than she treats you. my family, all in highly esteemed positions, my friends too - all find time and energy to communicate and stay connected. there are SO MANY ways to keep in touch these days that it's impossible to have that as an excuse. a text or email takes all of 30 seconds. a simple "thinking of you, sending love your way, xo" takes 15 seconds to send. i wake up to those every morning... but i also send them out! these are BUSY people, we all are - but not so much so that we purposely eliminate the contact with those we care about. she must hold herself in such high regard that she has NO need or usefulness for you... because that is what her actions show... that's just not enough for any loving relationship. i'd tell anyone -stop trying to force her (surrender = to cease fighting) to show that she cares - or loves - because she's been telling you for a long time - with her actions (or inactions) that she isn't willing to make any effort for you or the family. she's got her priorities in a different place... or world and she's not going to let you in.
Author NickFeek Posted May 17, 2011 Author Posted May 17, 2011 sheez, she can't find five minutes in a day's time to have a conversation? that is simply absurd, rude and absolutely ridiculous! she has her head so far up her a$$ that she's not even sure it's there! the people that know, love and care about me MAKE time! ya, i deal with BUSY people every day---> THEY make time to call, to talk and to brainstorm about SOLUTIONS to issues at hand every day! to avoid is merely a tactic that helps her stay distant, cold and unfeeling. NO ONE - and i mean - NO ONE is so bust that they don't have a few minutes to chat... THAT is NO marriage! i treat my enemies better than she treats you. my family, all in highly esteemed positions, my friends too - all find time and energy to communicate and stay connected. there are SO MANY ways to keep in touch these days that it's impossible to have that as an excuse. a text or email takes all of 30 seconds. a simple "thinking of you, sending love your way, xo" takes 15 seconds to send. i wake up to those every morning... but i also send them out! these are BUSY people, we all are - but not so much so that we purposely eliminate the contact with those we care about. she must hold herself in such high regard that she has NO need or usefulness for you... because that is what her actions show... that's just not enough for any loving relationship. i'd tell anyone -stop trying to force her (surrender = to cease fighting) to show that she cares - or loves - because she's been telling you for a long time - with her actions (or inactions) that she isn't willing to make any effort for you or the family. she's got her priorities in a different place... or world and she's not going to let you in. There is a reality in her head that seems so different from mine, and she's SO GOOD at articulating it that it has made me call into question my gut & logical thinking time and again for years. It's refreshing to hear someone else say what I believe too. What possible underlying reason could she have not to want to check in with me every day, even briefly. I can't tell you how many times I've asked her how she's doing, or just checked in in general, LONG before the infidelity. Not only does she rarely answer those, it's even rarer that she sends the first email to me, unless there's a kid or errand involved, or something is troubling her. What gets me is this - and this is why I love this forum, because I can ask something really confusing to me & actually get answers (thank you!): When she's in a good mood, and softens, and is respectful of me & solicitous to me verbally, and seems to miss me or need a hug, or compliments me to the kids, etc. etc. - it makes me feel really horrible & guilty. It makes me remember the things I still love about her, and shakes my resolve to change things for the better. I am still sticking to my guns on the big issues, and will not compromise those no matter how nice she is, but on following through with the separation I keep wavering because of these "good days". Can I hear some people's thoughts on this? It might help me to get a fresh perspective & sort out the emotions. Thanks.
soserious1 Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Nick, A couple of thoughts 1. perhaps the marriage has been on the rocks (from your wife's POV) a lot longer than you've thought 2.I tend to be left brained, I don't do idle chit chat,I dislike the phone & seldom make purely social calls. Many men have told me that they've never met a woman as quiet as I am, I can spend an entire day with someone in under 100 words, I speak only when I have something of value to say. A man hoping for me to call merely to "check in" and regurgitate details of my work day would be waiting till the 12th of never for that call. You say that when it concerns logistics, things to do with the kids ie: her responsibilities she responds,perhaps she tends to be a bit of a left brained person herself? the more you tell me about her the more strongly I susoect this might be the case.
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