How to integrate MM's kids to make split easier?

[GreenEyedLady]

Because you have chosen to hold your relationship up as an example and role model, I have chosen to comment on it. Truth in advertising and all.

 

I do not hold my R as an example or role model. It simply is what it is.

 

And I was divorced once and let me tell you THERE IS A HELLUVA LOT OF BEAUTY IN DIVORCE.

 

Your truth is your truth, and my truth is mine.

 

As I said before, I DON'T GIVE A FLIP WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ME OR MY R.

 

In fact, so many people care about my M and experiences, I'm starting to think that they are just jealous because they are stuck with men who they don't even RESPECT. Something I have in my R no matter what we have been through together.

 

But bring it sista! You just make me even more of a celebrity.

 

GEL

[Ladyblue]

I do not hold my R as an example or role model. It simply is what it is.

 

And I was divorced once and let me tell you THERE IS A HELLUVA LOT OF BEAUTY IN DIVORCE.

 

Your truth is your truth, and my truth is mine.

 

As I said before, I DON'T GIVE A FLIP WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ME OR MY R.

 

In fact, so many people care about my M and experiences, I'm starting to think that they are just jealous because they are stuck with men who they don't even RESPECT. Something I have in my R no matter what we have been through together.

 

But bring it sista! You just make me even more of a celebrity.

 

GEL

 

A CELEBRITY?????? Is THAT what you think, just bcos you married your MM; you think THAT makes you a celebrity?????

[Mrlonelyone]

Some of what was

 

In their culture, there is ESPECIALLY no respect for women who participate in sex with a married man.

FALSE... or at least not exactly.

 

In their culture they have a number of arrangements we don't have that are less than marriage but more than a BF GF relationship. These arrangements allow someone who would be a OW in our culture....to be a sort of temporary wife in their culture (IF they are shiite muslims in particular). With all the protections of a wife in their culture.

 

While the men gladly participate, their underlying opinion is that women who do so are lower than dirt. Also, women who have sex during daylight are disdained and considered dirt.

 

Sex during day lite? I never noticed that one. I have actually had very close relations with a Pakistani woman, and part of her family. I never heard that one.

 

I don't care how "Weaternized" they are, these are principles these men were taught at their Mother's knee, and no matter how worldly and "Western" they live, this is what they believe in their heart. I learned these things straight from the horses mouth(s). There's more. Lots more. It's a very different culture.

 

This is very very true. When one goes into a relationship with a person from another culture they need to have their eyes open. They need to see what that culture is about Good and Bad.

 

Yes Pakistani culture is very patriarcial and some of the men are chauvanist like we haven't seen here in living memory.

 

Yes Pakistani culture actually has a tradition of very involved and powerful women...who to my experience want men who are as dynamic as they are.

 

Yes Pakistan has had current problem.

 

Yes Pakistan is the home of one of the cradels of ancient civilization and has a old and beautiful culture.

 

..... I could go on about the good and Bad of Pakistan and Pakistani's.

 

However when entering a relationship with one don't underestimate the power of all that culture, their family, and their community over them.

 

 

The fact that you have already involved yourself sexually with this man, in that culture, makes you unworthy of any respect or consideration should things turn ugly.

 

That again is not necessarily so. Muslims have sex just like anyone else. While the women of the masjid would definitely gossip about it... that would blow over much like it would here. (note: Yes fornication is a crime under Sharia aka Islamic Law ... if their are four male Muslim eyewitness'es to the act it self. Which in practice never happens. When the strict letter of the law is followed their are no floggings for that. JIC anyone was wondering. )

[lara croft]

More problems posting!

 

GEL: thanks for warning me about this... I had read other threads and saw the range of posts, so understood a free forum would bring all sorts of opinions (and anger etc...). It has been an education on forums apart from anything else. A drain of energy to attempt to defend, refute or clarify many of the things said here. But thankyou to all - there have been some good things to think about.

 

Fact is, this time is very hard because we are loving, considerate and responsible people. Yes - that can be true for people in an affair! Weighing up different people's needs and desires is never going to be easy. I think one thing I have understood better now is that I need to find my own security and give MM space to make his choice, which I am doing. It is clear he wants to make the change whilst also feeling deeply his responsibilities, so we are trying to talk through the different aspects of this OBVIOUSLY to look after the needs of all vulnerable people in this. I am taking a little distance to allow me to think clearly what I need and for him to decide what he feels it right, then we will put some plans together and see if/when we can agree and move forward. He wants the kids to begin to see us together and slowly move to them staying in his new home (if that is what we finally decide).

 

we are not rushing into anything - if we do this, it has to be because we are totally committed to all aspects of making everyone's lives as good as they can be. Nothing is decided yet - we are still at the stage of honestly and brutally questioning what we both want and need and working things out. That is why I posted my question - to help inform my own personal motives, needs, offerings, concessions, kids, values etc.

 

As with anything in life, changes made with determination, wisdom and compassion do not necessarily have to damage people and many times can allow growth, insight and happiness. There is never one answer to any problem, I have simply tried to open my mind to making any change the best it can be and for the right reasons.

 

Thanks again for contributions.

[JsSweetPea]

As you can see from the posts that followed my post, you will need to be SURE. You will have to develop a thick skin and not let words hurt you.

 

It is what it is. We didn't pretend we just met. We were together and that's the way it was. It was definitely NOT a secret. And I wouldn't live like that. I don't lie.

 

I'll be honest. It's hard. It's much easier to hide out until after the divorce and *presto* appear. But that wasn't our truth. That wasn't us. And I love us and living with the consequences was preferable.

 

And I give credit to his XW who realized that it was important for her daughter to have a relationship with her dad and not try to make her hate him.

 

Because what we did is most BS's nightmares. They don't want their children around the OP. But I'd argue it's more to keep from hurting THEM, not their children.

 

And in the end, it doesn't matter what the other parent wants. What matters is what's in the parenting plan. They have no say in any other matters. That's the beauty of divorce.

 

We had a pretty easy time, nevertheless. I've heard horror stories. But if you're both sure, the storm eventually subsides. We trusted each other and knew that in the end, it would be all right. And if we had our families and each other, then that is all that mattered.

 

The people who loved us, still loved us. And we loved each other, even more.

 

People can say all they want about me or to me and I don't care. People who don't understand what I write, refuse to see another side. Sometimes hurt and fear keep people from seeing a side other than their own. Hurt because of betrayal, fear that if someone else's M could end then maybe theirs isn't so special either. The belief that a M contract equals possession and control.

 

I don't believe in possession and I certainly let no one but myself control my destiny.

 

Good luck, OP! It is a long journey. And it is different for everyone.

 

GEL

 

GEL... Once again, I so love reading your posts. The things in bold are things my MM & I discuss all the time. When this is said in done we're not going to lie, we're not going to hide, we're just going to be. The people who really love us will still love us & the people who don't....well they just won't. We know how hard the road ahead of us is & know we will have to deal with a huge aftermath. The choices we are making are not easy, and we're both smart enough to know our life isn't going to be some fairy tale. But it will be OUR life.

[jwi71]

Because what we did is most BS's nightmares. They don't want their children around the OP. But I'd argue it's more to keep from hurting THEM, not their children.

 

I disagree - and I think flowergirl77 would as well. Check out her threads about her A affected her teenage son - to the point of suicide I believe she said. Prior to her son's breakdown, she obsessed over MM at the EXPENSE of her son.

 

A's and resultant trauma and/or D's affect children period.

 

And people in an A HURT the children and ACTIVELY so. Lets face it, children are innocent and little cared about during an A by the WS and th AP. At least not enough to stop the A.

 

I surmise this based on:

--an A is likely to end in D, that's partly why they are hidden. Should there be true pride in the A, the MM and the OW would hide nothing from day one nor lie about the circumstance in which they met.

--Knowing that a D is a likely result and also knowing that D is traumatic for children, both parties CONTINUE anyway. The children do NOT trump the needs of the APs - a worrisome trait.

--I happen to believe that morals are passed from parent to child via modeling (demonstrated behaviors) and teaching (spoken lessons). One parent, the BS clearly has a different moral code than the WS - this also applies to the OW and her moral code (or deficiency in). What parent wants to knowingly allow morally deficient people to raise his/her children?

 

This is why, imo, the BS has a problem with the AP being around the children.

And yes, plain ol' hatred plays a role as well...but I'd also say its ok to hate your enemies.

[desertIslandCactus]

I can't recall any celebrities that I admire, and your posts don't change that assessment. Your claim to fame is breaking up a marriage, and that is nothing to be proud of.

 

Exactly.

 

There are no new beginnings when 'the win' is based on other's loss. The position of the OW remains the same.

[desertIslandCactus]

 

Fact is, this time is very hard because we are loving, considerate and responsible people.

 

Lara, There's nothing considerate or responsible about being in an A with a M person.

 

 

As with anything in life, changes made with determination, wisdom and compassion do not necessarily have to damage people and many times can allow growth, insight and happiness.

 

No wisdom and compassion in this either.

 

Lara, an OW cannot latch onto a MM, intend to marry him - and say it doesn't "necessarily have to damage people and many times can allow growth"..

 

It's ridiculous that you're acting like you are doing this family a favor. Believe me this is All Destructive.

[pureinheart]

I disagree - and I think flowergirl77 would as well. Check out her threads about her A affected her teenage son - to the point of suicide I believe she said. Prior to her son's breakdown, she obsessed over MM at the EXPENSE of her son.

 

A's and resultant trauma and/or D's affect children period.

 

And people in an A HURT the children and ACTIVELY so. Lets face it, children are innocent and little cared about during an A by the WS and th AP. At least not enough to stop the A.

 

I surmise this based on:

--an A is likely to end in D, that's partly why they are hidden. Should there be true pride in the A, the MM and the OW would hide nothing from day one nor lie about the circumstance in which they met.

--Knowing that a D is a likely result and also knowing that D is traumatic for children, both parties CONTINUE anyway. The children do NOT trump the needs of the APs - a worrisome trait.

--I happen to believe that morals are passed from parent to child via modeling (demonstrated behaviors) and teaching (spoken lessons). One parent, the BS clearly has a different moral code than the WS - this also applies to the OW and her moral code (or deficiency in). What parent wants to knowingly allow morally deficient people to raise his/her children?

 

This is why, imo, the BS has a problem with the AP being around the children.

And yes, plain ol' hatred plays a role as well...but I'd also say its ok to hate your enemies.

 

JW, this is way too much, and reminds me of those movies where people are smoking weed and open fire on everyone around them...it was all due to being under the influence of weed.

[bentnotbroken]

JW, this is way too much, and reminds me of those movies where people are smoking weed and open fire on everyone around them...it was all due to being under the influence of weed.

 

 

I would love to know the name of some of those movies. I have never seen a movie where a pothead does anything other than smoke and eat.

[pureinheart]

When I discovered my H's affair, while devasted and in shock, I STILL turned to my young adult children and said:

 

"No matter what happens between your father and I, he, too deserves love in his life. If this is the person he chooses to spend the rest of his life with, I expect you to treat her with respect. It is how I raised you."

 

"Also, there are 'no sides' here. He is your father and he loves you. I do not want nor expect you to defend me at the expense of feelings you have for him. It's our marriage and we will either dissolve it or fix it, and we will all go on."

 

Amazingly, my first thought was to help and protect them from the affair fallout. We had lived such a good family life.....truly.

 

There were still shattered and old enough to have their say.

 

My first-born D wanted to go knock on OW's door and tell her off. Thankfully, I talked her out of it.

 

My second born D told her dad: "You are exactly the type of man you warned us never to date!" Ouch.

 

My S....a puddle of tears.

 

OP, my advice is for you to do NOTHING for a very long time. If and when he divorces, perhaps a year later he can introduce you "as a friend."

 

The ages of the children do not matter in this regard, IMHO.

 

You will be hated, seen as the inteloper, the home-wrecker if you move too fast, too soon.

 

Do not touch this with a ten-foot pole if you have any hope of acceptance. He has to act: First, divorce; second; allow the children to mourn the marriage; and third, after a comfortable and long period of adjustment.....meet you.

 

Neither of my parents talked crap about the other, they both had AP's. My dad immediately M the stepmother. I was close with the stepmother until she did a 180 25yrs later while my dad was on life support in the hospital.

 

In bold, I didn't hate anyone, even as a child, and had already been through a lot and observed people according to their own merit. I do agree to wait though.

 

I never involved myself in my parents affairs (not speaking of A's), nor did my kids involve themselves in mine.

 

In general (your post caused me to think in the direction, although it is not directed at you Spark) "people" when they are harmed or hurt seem to need people to rally around them for support, some don't care how they get it. I know exDM's exW did this.

 

From what I read on LS, kids have way too much information.

[pureinheart]

I would love to know the name of some of those movies. I have never seen a movie where a pothead does anything other than smoke and eat.

 

I'm sure they can be found on the www. There were a bunch of films made in the 40's and 50' meant to demonise pot claiming a user would go out of their minds doing all sorts of things, including murder...drama at it's finest.

[pureinheart]

Sometimes it can't help that the kids get dragged in, though. I mentioned it before, but when I was 6 years old and my brother 8 my mom was going around with a MM. The angry BS called our house on an evening when she knew my mom was not home (my brother and I stayed home alone from a young age) and told us our mother was killed in a car accident. Obviously she did it out of spite and vengeance. Sucked she used us kids to get back at our mom, though. =S

 

Awwww LL, that is horrible....I am so very sorry:(

[bentnotbroken]

I'm sure they can be found on the www. There were a bunch of films made in the 40's and 50' meant to demonise pot claiming a user would go out of their minds doing all sorts of things, including murder...drama at it's finest.

 

 

Will give it a look see.

[Star_Bright]

I do not hold my R as an example or role model. It simply is what it is.

 

And I was divorced once and let me tell you THERE IS A HELLUVA LOT OF BEAUTY IN DIVORCE.

 

Your truth is your truth, and my truth is mine.

 

As I said before, I DON'T GIVE A FLIP WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ME OR MY R.

 

In fact, so many people care about my M and experiences, I'm starting to think that they are just jealous because they are stuck with men who they don't even RESPECT. Something I have in my R no matter what we have been through together.

 

But bring it sista! You just make me even more of a celebrity.

 

GEL

 

 

Wow. I did not know all of that backstory but I for one am not jealous of someone who was lied to for so long and who was okay with it and went along with it. I also don't understand the haughty attitude. I find it really sad..

 

Lara Croft, I hope you are not just taking the advice that you want to hear and ignoring the more objective perspectives you are getting from people who have experienced all kinds of different aspects of this. The basic thing you seem to be forgetting is that you guys have not worked out yet, and there's quite a chance that you won't. I'm *not* trying to be negative but I am trying to look out for your kids, since that is what your question was about, and for you because it is too easy to have rose-colored glasses in these situations. Yeah some MM/OW relationships work out, but at what cost? (being lied to for example, or just plain starting out based on deception), and *most* MM/OW relationships do not. That is just the plain truth of things that you can't ignore, you have to accept the reality of, and it seems you're doing that, so now you have to look at how that can affect your children (and his).

 

For that reason I feel the issue of whether *your* MM in your particular sitch is really going to leave his marriage is very relevant to your question of co-mingling families because you *can't* co-mingle a family until you really are a family, and at this point, he is still very married to his wife... even telling you he is going to stay that way for another year or two (which I think is much better than lying to you but still, do you want to settle for that?) I'm confused as to why you would want to introduce your kids to him or his kids to you until there is at least a good possibility that you guys will actually be a family. So, putting aside this whole backstory thing and this assertion of jealousy or come-on-and-fight-me type attitude, GEL's advice and experience about blending families IMHO are not applicable to you yet... your MM has not separated from his wife, he has not declared his intention to his kids and everyone else to get divorced from her and be with you... all you have, like so many of us have had, are words, and there is no guarantee that words are going to turn into action. So that kind of thing about how to blend a family may be good to consider for the future but definitely not for how things are now! Now you are still a secret and the kids do not deserve to be brought into that kind of deception and confusion.

 

We can leave the morals of being an OW or MM out of this... I was one, I am no one to judge... and nor do I have children... but I have to believe we all agree on a basic level that lying and cheating are not activities we wish to bring kids into, and not what you want as a role model for your kids. Right? I agree with those who have said to listen to your intuitions. *You* yourself have expressed doubts that he is really going to be able to do this, so why mix your kids and his kids up in this until it is more of a sure thing?

[bentnotbroken]

Bent, the movie is Reefer Madness, it is an exploitation movie made in the 1930s I believe. Basically the kids smoke pot, go all hyper and crazy, rapes women, etc etc. There may be other films, but that is the most famous one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

 

Ugh, tapped into my inner film nerd for that one.

 

 

This is interesting. I think I will show it to my kids to see what they think?

[dont-be-naive]

Should add that he never thought he would meet anyone he loved enough to leave (yes, I know they all say this!). He has never told his wife about any of his previous affairs etc (not that it makes it ok on her, but indicates seriousness of how he sees this relationship I guess?). I do trust he will be faithful to me.

 

ok, so he is a serial cheater, let alone cheater period.

 

you do trust he will be faithful to you? ya, ok. if he does end up leaving and is with you for any extended period of time, just wait. He'll get bored and be looking for variety again.

 

face it, in a line of various women he has cheated on his wife with, you are not special. He just didn't want to leave his kids back then either.

 

If a cheater is who you want, then you are going to make your own bed.

[Owl]

Lara,

 

Have you read and paid attention to MrLonely's posts about Pakistani culture and beliefs?

 

After reading those, and reading your discussion about "splitting time 50/50" and no firm timelines, it makes me wonder if your MM is setting you up to become his second wife, rather than truly planning/considering ending his marriage to his current wife to be with you.

 

Have you read much about Pakistani culture? Discussed your H's religious views/upbringing?

 

How does he plan on dealing with his family's response to his relationship with you, to his divorce from his current wife to be with you?

 

How does that work given that their families are so intermarried/intermixed at this point?

 

I seriously suspect that he's not considering divorce from her at all, but a 3 way relationship with you as his second wife in another country...whether or not you want it that way.

[Owl]

I thought I'd also raise one other consideration.

 

His kids, once they truly understand the situation with you, will view you through eyes tinted by the culture that they were raised in.

 

Which is another reason to spend some quality time getting to know that culture, and specifics about his family dynamics and the religion that he was raised in and that his wife (apparently) practices and potentially taught to their children.

 

I don't claim to know what that specific religion is, nor the regional variation that might be a factor here. I'm just suggesting that it would be in your best intests in learning about it as much as you can, as it's likely to have a huge impact in how you interact with his children and family.

[OWoman]

Wow, this thread truly has it all! Racism, religious bigotry, cultural prejudice and ad hominem attacks! I guess if my faith in humanity ever needs shaking, reading this thread is a good place to start...

 

Lara, I've never "blended families" (so can't "boast" about that ) but I have step-parented a couple of times, and I do have experience of integrating a MM's kids into a new family following the splitting up of the MM and the BW. In my case, the kids were older - younger teens during the A, older teens now - so of course the resources available to me were different to those that would be available in your situation. In my case, my H sat down with his kids during the A, once we'd decided we wanted to be together, to tell them he was in love with someone else, and that he was going to leave the BW, and that we were planning on being together. He attended family counselling with them before and during the split, and although at that stage I had yet to meet them in person, we were in contact via text and email, so they started to get to know me and about me in small ways before we met.

 

My H and his kids lived alone for about 6 months following the split, before I moved in with them, and although that was due to logistical constraints on my side rather than any ideological position on that, I do feel it was the right thing to do in our case, as it gave them time to establish healthy family dynamics and living arrangements independently of our R, so that when I moved in I didn't have to be the one making sweeping changes or imposing a new regime. My H and I have similar values and ideas on parenting - very different to his xW - and so he was able to institute those changes and address his R with his kids outside of the context of his R with me, which was very necessary in our situation.

 

I'm not going to comment on whether or not I feel it's appropriate for you to be thinking of integrating your MM's kids at this stage - you have the most information on your situation, and are best placed to judge where you are on that - but I will refute some of the claims made by other posters that kids should not be integrated into a new family before the ink is dry on his D or before you are legally M to him (assuming that is your intention). If you are both serious about a life together, and if you are both working towards that, then there is no need to exclude the kids from that aspect of his life provided it is done sensitively, age-appropriately and with the kids' best interests in mind. My step kids are grateful for having been included, given the info and given a voice in things as they were unfolding, rather than being presented with a fait accompli down the track. Your MM's kids are younger, so it won't be appropriate to replicate what we did, but what is important is for him to speak to them through the split, getting counselling for them (and for them all as a family) if possible, so that all of their concerns, fears and hopes can get heard and addressed along the way. You will need to be guided by that - if they're eager to play happy families then go for it; if they have concerns about you replacing their mother, then don't rush things - but it does need to come from THEM and where they ACTUALLY are, emotionally, rather than from the speculation of strangers on a discussion forum. Situations and people are different, and that includes kids. Just because something worked or didn't work in one situation with one group of people doesn't mean it will necessarily be the same in another.

 

Good luck, whichever way this pans out.

[lara croft]

Thank you OWoman. Useful to hear your experiences.

 

My MM does not want to get a place by himself (that is what I said I felt was best to give a clear start) but as he is in the country so little and spends so much time in hotels by himself, he just didn't want to do that. He is learning and thinking about ways to separate (having never thought about this before) and is taking his time to work out how he thinks is best to do this for his kids. He agrees that the 50/50 thing cannot work anymore (it was brought in as a stage of his relationship with me) and has now clarified that he does intend to achieve a clear split (timescale a year). I understand why he wants to do this gradually and I now feel reassured by him that this is not delaying tactics. We will work out a plan with timescale for gradual changes to be made.

 

He is completely clear that he is with me for the long haul and I have had many conversations with him about the 2nd wife thing (after all, he could be with me the long haul if i accepted this 50/50 thing, which i won't if it doesn't change as he says it will). I will say again he is an EX muslim, is very educated (in western schools) and feels very strongly that for him many muslim values are bigoted and wrong. He talks to his kids to make sure they will not be in an arranged marriage or be abused by men. Although i feel and have said that he is abusing his wife by this nomansland at present, I also see that he wants to reassure them that he will not abandon them and understand why this takes time. He has been unfaithful to her in the past because he was totally unfulfilled personally. This is the first time he has ever wanted to leave and that is why this is the first time he has told her he is seeing someone else because this is a life changing relationship for him (and me). For him to tell her after 4 months of seeing me (by which time he knew it was serious) is a good sign.

 

I think he has to explain something more to his kids as his wife has told them about me when he was away and it is clear that she has understandably been unhappy about it. He will spend some time going through it with them when he is back from work later this week. they need to hear his explanation and have reassurances from him about their relationship with him and their security. He is a great dad by the way, very loving and stimulating for them. It is not in any question at all that he will carry on totally providing for them all, his w has never worked and is totally dependent on him for her livelihood.

 

I guess there have been 2 things going on for me - my short term insecurity and my desire to make sure that this can work in the long term (and importantly that he really wants it to work as a clearly defined separate relationship). things are shifting all the time in terms of our understanding of the situation and eachother but we have worked through this bit well and with love and compassion. A new life with eachother and our kids integrated naturally is what we are working towards.

 

As for people who say it just won't work, I don't know how you can say that (as I said statistics are averages). The only way to tell is to take a raincheck further down the line. I have to have faith in this, otherwise it cannot work. I also accept, as in any thing you go for in life, (job interview, prize etc...) that there is an investment and risk of failure. As I said previously, this is not an impulse thing, both of us are thinking and talking about all aspects of it to make sure it is done in the best way. I have read and appreciated all the views here - it has made me look at this differently and more seriously (and also realising that people have their own reasons for putting their points of view).

 

ok, i will carry on checking this thread and feedback where appropriate.

[Carrot2000]

If the wife knows about you, and the kids know about you, and he's not home much anyway, what difference does a year make? If he wants to show them that he won't abandon them, then he needs to just start acting on it now and be consistent--neither of which requires him to be in the home.

 

I'm hoping you get the outcome you want, I just know how when we're in love we can make things that make no sense sound sensible. What he's proposing is not only not sensible, it's actually quite cruel to his wife.

 

The fact that he's willing to leave her in no-man's land should give you pause, because it shows that he is capable of doing the same things to you.