Cheating is NOT the only form of betrayal

[xxoo]

TB,

I absolutely believe there are situations where cheating is justified. For example:

1. Having a spouse who is choosing to withhold sex when (not talking about serious illness here - that is a different matter)

2. You have children and don't want to have your access to them limited by divorce and

3. You have attempted to resolve the sexual issues and they simply are unable/unwilling to

 

In that situation I actually think it is ok. The "least of all evils".

 

If you can afford it financially - then I think you should be upfront and let them know you intend to take a love and will be discreet but not secretive about it. In the "afford it" scenario you get an apartment and/or reach a custody agreement that YOU can live with. I don't think you should have to choose between celibacy and loss of parental interaction....

 

Personally, if I loved my H and permanently lost all sexual interest somehow, I'd offer him the option of finding a sex partner. To me, that IS love.

 

But I have issue with forcing the non-monogamy on a partner. Equally, I have issues with forcing celibacy on a partner. Both are cruel, imo.

 

In this hypothetical situation, my question is--Why perpetuate this mutual cruelty? Here in the US, at least, I know plenty of parents that share custody of kids (50/50 time, or close to it). "For the kids" seems to be a less and less reasonable to stay in a loveless marriage.

[LiveWell]

In this hypothetical situation, my question is--Why perpetuate this mutual cruelty? Here in the US, at least, I know plenty of parents that share custody of kids (50/50 time, or close to it). "For the kids" seems to be a less and less reasonable to stay in a loveless marriage.

 

 

A marriage has many aspects of a business arrangement in addition to the emotional aspect. Separation and divorce requires setting up two separate households, and while the expenses for the family not actually double, I'm sure they typically go up by 50% or more. For most people that's a lot of money, more than likely money that people don't have or could find a better way to spend.

 

Also, just because one of the spouses might still need sex and the other doesn't want it anymore, doesn't mean there's no emotional connection (although obviously it's a really bad indicator!) The parents may still make a very good "child raising team" regardless of the fact that they don't have sex with each other.

 

I think as long as the spouse who is not interested in sex any longer would not take it so personally if the sexual spouse needs to turn to a third party, this could work out in many cases. The problem of course is where the uninterested spouse wants to deny the other spouse any other sexual outlet. That just doesn't seem fair does it.

[xxoo]

I think as long as the spouse who is not interested in sex any longer would not take it so personally if the sexual spouse needs to turn to a third party, this could work out in many cases. The problem of course is where the uninterested spouse wants to deny the other spouse any other sexual outlet. That just doesn't seem fair does it.

 

Neither is fair. It isn't fair to deny a spouse a sexual outlet, and it isn't fair to unilaterally decide to end the monogamous agreement.

 

At least in mem's example, the spouse breaking the agreement is honest about their intention to go outside the marriage for sex. While still cruel (imo), it at least gives the spouse an opportunity to make an informed choice to stay or divorce.

 

This approach shouldn't be viewed as a foolproof way to avoid divorce, of course. The "bs" may make the choice to divorce, as is their right. I personally suspect a lot of the lying surrounding affairs is about DENYING the bs the right to make informed choices--because the WS suspects they wouldn't stay if they knew.

 

Divorce is costly and stressful. Still, people of all income brackets manage to divorce all the time.

[confusedinkansas]

And someone who would lie to, sneak around beind the back of, and cheat on their partner is "invested" in the R? Um - NOT.

 

I never said that the person that is sneaking around was or wasn't invested in the marriage.

 

I was commenting on your SIMPLE to walk away comment. (that was all)

I said that if someone believes it's SIMPLE to just walk away from a marriage, they can't be very "invested" in that relationship.

 

Just walking away because your spouse won't communicate with you is a child's answer to a very adult issue.

 

There are a lot of posters here in LS that have 20+ years invested in their marriages. Walking away from that is hardly SIMPLE.

[LiveWell]

Neither is fair. It isn't fair to deny a spouse a sexual outlet, and it isn't fair to unilaterally decide to end the monogamous agreement.

 

Your logic is faulty here.

 

"Monogamous agreement" means "sex with only one other person," e.g. "mono". It does not mean "sex with ZERO other people", which would be something like "non" ogamous I guess, whatever the appropriate latin root would be for the neologism/back formation. Maybe "a"-nogamous, akin to "asexual"?

 

So, by denying sex to the sex starved partner, the sex denying spouse has already "unilaterally violated" the "monogamous agreement." Monogamy does not mean "sex with at most one other person."

 

 

 

At least in mem's example, the spouse breaking the agreement is honest about their intention to go outside the marriage for sex. While still cruel (imo), it at least gives the spouse an opportunity to make an informed choice to stay or divorce.

I never advocated seeking sex outside the marriage, in that situation, in secrecy. I think being upfront about it is the only way to go, at least, the sex depriving spouse might be shocked into reality and the third party sex might not ultimately be necessary to follow through on.

 

But if you're implying that the sex-starved spouse needs the sex-denying spouse's agreement I beg to differ. The sex denying spouse broke the monogamy agreement by refusing to have sex, forcing the sex starved spouse to seek a solution. The explicit or implicit "deal" when they got married was that sex would be a part of the relationship. If the sex denying spouse feels that strongly about it he/she can either resume a reasonable level of sexual activity or file for divorce. Simple.

 

 

 

 

This approach shouldn't be viewed as a foolproof way to avoid divorce, of course.

It's not, as obviously once you get into this predicament divorce initiated by one or the other of the spouses at some point down the road is always going to be a possibility. Once a spouse has stopped wanting to have sexual relations (for non medical reasons) then the marriage is in serious trouble no matter what. And if the other spouse is forced to seek sex outside the marriage it's more likely than not that this won't improve the marriage.

 

 

The "bs" may make the choice to divorce, as is their right. I personally suspect a lot of the lying surrounding affairs is about DENYING the bs the right to make informed choices--because the WS suspects they wouldn't stay if they knew.

A lot of WS at least many posting here seem to want both the spouse and the other person in their lives to fulfill various roles, which probably accounts for a lot of the deception. If a WS wanted a straight out divorce they would just "walk." It's hard for even a WS to find an affair partner that represents the "total package", because let's face it--why would the "total package" really need to bother with someone like the typical WS who's not really available completely? The AP might be great in bed but terrible financially or emotionally. Something's always missing, but if it's one of the few cases where the affair partner is the "total package" and the WS has the opportunity, the WS can and does "walk." It's just that it's not too common because of the nature of extra marital relationships and the common characteristics of the people who participate in them.

 

 

 

 

Divorce is costly and stressful. Still, people of all income brackets manage to divorce all the time.

Again if divorce is considered as a serious option by either partner then there's no reason not to put every other option short of divorce "on the table."

[xxoo]

"Monogamous agreement" means "sex with only one other person," e.g. "mono". It does not mean "sex with ZERO other people", which would be something like "non" ogamous I guess, whatever the appropriate latin root would be for the neologism/back formation. Maybe "a"-nogamous, akin to "asexual"?

 

So, by denying sex to the sex starved partner, the sex denying spouse has already "unilaterally violated" the "monogamous agreement." Monogamy does not mean "sex with at most one other person."

 

I don't want to get into a battle of definitions or monogamy, because they vary and it really isn't relevant. It also doesn't matter who did what first. It matters what commitments each person made, and how they personally handle their commitments. And it matters that, in most parts of the world, there is an available process for ENDING marriage commitments.

 

I do think it is relevant that few "sexless marriages" are ACTUALLY "sexless". Often there is a huge disparity in interest, but it isn't for one partner to unilaterally decide when sex is infrequent enough to warrant a new sex partner without the spouse's agreement.

[LiveWell]

I don't want to get into a battle of definitions or monogamy, because they vary and it really isn't relevant. It also doesn't matter who did what first. It matters what commitments each person made, and how they personally handle their commitments. And it matters that, in most parts of the world, there is an available process for ENDING marriage commitments.

 

I do think it is relevant that few "sexless marriages" are ACTUALLY "sexless". Often there is a huge disparity in interest, but it isn't for one partner to unilaterally decide when sex is infrequent enough to warrant a new sex partner without the spouse's agreement.

 

I believe "sexless" is commonly defined as "less than once per month" or "less than 10x per year." You are right, that's not literally sexless, but I guess close enough....

 

I don't disagree that ideally there should be agreement; but it's unrealistic to expect it, given that the sex-withholding spouse by definition seems to have a total disregard for a basic "need" of their spouse.

[confusedinkansas]

And f'ing around with someone NOT your partner is adult behavior? Um, okay.

 

Never said that either.

 

An affair isn't the answer when there are marital issues. HOWEVER, when I had mine ~ it was the only answer at that time, that presented itsself to me.

 

Tinkerbells' Tag line is Cheating is NOT the only form of betrayal. -

I for one believe this to be true. (From my own experience)

 

Im reading all of the judgments here about those who have affairs. What I dont hear anyone saying (with the exception of a few) is that it is a form of betrayal for a spouse to withhold sex, love, and affection when both have entered into a marital contract, which by its very nature people enter into because of the above-stated reasons. Sure, its fine for the spouse who refuses or is incapable of meeting the needs of his/her W or H, but OMG, its a horrible selfish disgusting person who engages in an affair. Forget all extenuating circumstances. Do readers here really think that getting a divorce is that easy, or even always the best answer? Timing is truly an issue when it comes to divorce and needs to be considered as well. I have noticed that there are some posters on here that are so damaged/hurt/wounded that all they can do is bash and judge others. Simple right or wrong thinking. People like that don't help anyone with their opinions. If you are trying to answer posts from that headspace, all you are doing is projecting your own s--t onto others. Having said that, if you have NON-JUDGMENTAL opinions or thoughts on this, then please do respond.

 

Tink - I get what you're saying 100%. But getting non-judgemental opinions will never happen here. Sorry to say.

[2sure]

Betrayal of a loved one, a marriage, a spouse, a family can take many many different forms and all hurt simply because they are a betrayal of trust or love or loyalty.

 

Most of these betrayals including the distance created by withholding sex, avoiding discussion, money issues, etc. are things that have been simmering for awhile , your spouse is aware of the issue and can choose a path for the marriage or at least themselves. Regardless of the betrayal - the offended spouse is able to make a decision based on the truth of the circumstances.

 

In infidelity, the real betrayal is that the person most likely to be negatively affected by it ...is unaware of the truth and left without the necessary information every one needs to make life altering decisions.

 

Taking that necessary thing away from someone is nothing, absolutely nothing compared to simply having your spouse bang someone else or get their ego fed by someone else. And that betrayal pales in comparison to something that you dont like but you know about.

[xxoo]

. And that betrayal pales in comparison to something that you dont like but you know about.

 

I completely agree.

 

Any other betrayal (finances, substance abuse, etc) CAN rise to the same level, IF it involves the same level of deceit and gaslighting to keep the bs ignorant of the situation. If not, there really is no comparison.

[Tinkerbell1]

And f'ing around with someone NOT your partner is adult behavior? Um, okay.

 

 

It's simple when the issues are too big, and one party refuses to address them.

 

I won't hang onto a go nowhere relationship where I don't feel loved and cherished. Others may not need to feel loved and cherished, or they may hang on and on hoping for a miracle. We get one life. I intend to live it on my terms with honesty and integrity. That does NOT include screwing around behind the back of my partner.

 

Simple.

 

If it were that simple, these boards wouldnt even exist and marital counseling wouldnt be necessary. We do care for each other, we have been together over 13 years and we have two very young children. We also took a huge financial hit two years ago and H was getting back on his feet and recently lost his job due to the job market so that is more financial stress. If my parents were alive, I would have already gone to live with them to give us some (affordable) space apart. And he knows this as I have told him honestly. If he were mean, cruel, abusive, a bad parent, I would have already moved out, hardship or no. One of the things that happens in a situation like this if its not horrible one is less likely to leave. There is much good here, however I have determined it is simply no longer enough. Good for you Maybe, that your life is so cut and dried, mine isnt and I dont make decisions lightly. Also, with all of the women I have known going through financial hardship and the loss of an intact family, i have never once hear them say "Hey, it wasnt working, so this is simple now!"

 

Oh and regarding your comment about my being new, I have been reading here about three weeks but only now decided to post. If you have any concept of human nature whatsoever, it is not difficult to see which posters come up with the most consistantly judgmental responses. For example, I was in no way surprised by your posts. Only, Bent is not mean, and I believe she truly means well - you on the other hand are mean and flippant. That is not how I operate in the world. I am far too human to judge others and think that I am always right or somehow better than other people going through real life problems.

 

In the meantime, I will figure this out to the best of my ability. I do truly thank the other posters who have been so thoughtful about their posts. I was going to say whether they agree with me or not, but really, this is NOT a post about whether or not affairs are okay, this is more about figuring out a very tough situation. Either way, someone is going to get hurt. Right now its me, and if I leave, it will be my H and the kids AND me as well.

[2sure]

Morals aside, if people - especially those with children - cannot afford to divorce...they are the LAST ones that should be having an affair.

 

Its like playing Russian roulette , with your family on the other end of the gun. You dont know whats going to happen, you have no control over the results...but you dont mind taking the risk because...because why exactly? Because your sad? Because your bored?

[confusedinkansas]

You certainly don't mind implying all kinds of other things, like the fact (or not) that someone was talking about "just walking away" over a mere "refusal to communicate." Oh, and also the implication that people who get a divorce are "childish." That's not AT ALL what I was talking about, but perhaps a need to "win" the debate has clouded your vision. There has been discussion, for the most part, about people who refuse to have sex with their partner. I know of several LS couples wherein the W refuses to have sex and ALSO refuses to address the issue - AT ALL.

 

THAT kind of attitude would make it VERY easy for me to walk. A refusal to give a flyin' rat's arse about the well being of the relationship would very much signal the end for me. But I would end things in an upfront and HONEST manner. No lying, sneaking, cheating, f'ing around.

 

I don't care about winning a debate with you - but it's apparent that you read what you THINK is in a post, not what is actually typed here. Several times I've had to mention....I didn't say that! But, that's ok.

 

So, one more time - I never said that people who divorce are childish or that it's childish to divorce - nor was it implied.

 

Tinkerbell - I'm sorry about your financial hardship.

It is very difficult to leave a marriage especially when one can't afford that

new pair of Manolo Blahniks

When my husband & I separated, we were NOT in any financial place to do so, but I moved out after saving some money over time. (We had no children at home) I got my own apartment. In the meantime, he kept the house, partied like a rock star & to make matters worse, never once paid the mortgage. By the time we figured our relationship out, it was too late to keep the house.

So, we're one of those folks out there that were forced to walk away from our home (because of his decisions).

 

So, there's an example of what happens when folks do separate. (Which is why it's not SIMPLE - as many would want some to think) Not simple in the first place to make that decision, not simple when the @hit hits the fan either.

 

We're clawing our way back so NOW it's all good. But, fighting thru has been difficult to say the least.

 

Tink - I wish you nothing but the best. It's really too bad that coming here for answers, sometimes it's not cut & dry.

[Tinkerbell1]

DonnaMaybe, your oversimplified interpretation of everything you read is astounding. The financial hardship has been his fault, Im not going into it here. Getting laid off was not his fault, but we would have been FINE with him not working if he had not rung up the debt that he did previously WHILE i was pregnant (I SUPPORTED US AT THAT TIME). Sooo, going back to me being the betrayer LOLOLOLOL that is really funny.

 

I just posted on here about the tough position I am in, why are you attacking me?

Edited October 26, 2010 by Tinkerbell1

[Tinkerbell1]

Morals aside, if people - especially those with children - cannot afford to divorce...they are the LAST ones that should be having an affair.

 

Its like playing Russian roulette , with your family on the other end of the gun. You dont know whats going to happen, you have no control over the results...but you dont mind taking the risk because...because why exactly? Because your sad? Because your bored?

 

 

2sure, who are you talking to here? Did I say I had an affair?

[reddog63]

Im reading all of the judgments here about those who have affairs. What I dont hear anyone saying (with the exception of a few) is that it is a form of betrayal for a spouse to withhold sex, love, and affection when both have entered into a marital contract, which by its very nature people enter into because of the above-stated reasons. Sure, its fine for the spouse who refuses or is incapable of meeting the needs of his/her W or H, but OMG, its a horrible selfish disgusting person who engages in an affair. Forget all extenuating circumstances. Do readers here really think that getting a divorce is that easy, or even always the best answer? Timing is truly an issue when it comes to divorce and needs to be considered as well. I have noticed that there are some posters on here that are so damaged/hurt/wounded that all they can do is bash and judge others. Simple right or wrong thinking. People like that don't help anyone with their opinions. If you are trying to answer posts from that headspace, all you are doing is projecting your own s--t onto others. Having said that, if you have NON-JUDGMENTAL opinions or thoughts on this, then please do respond.

 

I realize most of the posts are concentrating on the withholding of love, sex and affection. And I agree with this. I have always boiled it down to just not meeting your spouses needs. Now, if the needs are not expressed, then the other spouse may not know of them. But if they are expressed and continually ignored, then they can erode a marriage, whatever the need is.

[2sure]

2sure, who are you talking to here? Did I say I had an affair?

 

 

I was not talking specifically to anyone, I simply responded to a question in the original post pertaining to how difficult getting a divorce can be and to the responses that followed talking about some of the reasons and logistics that make divorce nearly impossible.

 

My response in no way implied that you were having an affair. In reading it I cannot find one single word that could be misunderstood to reflect that.

 

My opinion , when one states the difficulties of getting a divorce, is that when children are involved if you cannot get a divorce you have to find a way to make it work until you can. And making that work, for the children, should not include having a secret affair like so many do because that risks the well being , home, and financial security of the children.

 

Sadly, English is my only language.

[Tinkerbell1]

Fair enough 2sure. Thanks for clarifying. Donna, not meaning to give half-truths here. It is very difficult to put ones whole story into a forum post. I did explain more in follow ups and I would be happy to elaborate if anyone has any questions.

[BlackLovely]

If it were that simple, these boards wouldnt even exist and marital counseling wouldnt be necessary. We do care for each other, we have been together over 13 years and we have two very young children. We also took a huge financial hit two years ago and H was getting back on his feet and recently lost his job due to the job market so that is more financial stress. If my parents were alive, I would have already gone to live with them to give us some (affordable) space apart. And he knows this as I have told him honestly. If he were mean, cruel, abusive, a bad parent, I would have already moved out, hardship or no. One of the things that happens in a situation like this if its not horrible one is less likely to leave. There is much good here, however I have determined it is simply no longer enough. Good for you Maybe, that your life is so cut and dried, mine isnt and I dont make decisions lightly. Also, with all of the women I have known going through financial hardship and the loss of an intact family, i have never once hear them say "Hey, it wasnt working, so this is simple now!"

 

Oh and regarding your comment about my being new, I have been reading here about three weeks but only now decided to post. If you have any concept of human nature whatsoever, it is not difficult to see which posters come up with the most consistantly judgmental responses. For example, I was in no way surprised by your posts. Only, Bent is not mean, and I believe she truly means well - you on the other hand are mean and flippant. That is not how I operate in the world. I am far too human to judge others and think that I am always right or somehow better than other people going through real life problems.

 

In the meantime, I will figure this out to the best of my ability. I do truly thank the other posters who have been so thoughtful about their posts. I was going to say whether they agree with me or not, but really, this is NOT a post about whether or not affairs are okay, this is more about figuring out a very tough situation. Either way, someone is going to get hurt. Right now its me, and if I leave, it will be my H and the kids AND me as well.

 

I find it troubling that after 13 years and two children together, your marriage is not strong enough to handle financial stress.

Hard times are a necessary evil in marriage. As soon as the money runs out, so does your love? That's so awful!

My husband and I have only been married a month, after 1.5 years of dating and two years living together. He proposed to me on January 1st, 2009. This was two months after the company he worked for shut down. I said yes because I knew he wasn't lazy and our love was priceless. He told me that I truly understood the meaning of the marriage vows which speak of riches and poverty, good times and bad. Even though he could not find work for a year, I was his confidence booster as he searched for work, any job even though he is an engineer. We were engaged for nearly two years and married in an intimate yet luxury wedding, paying only a third of what we would have, for a huge wedding. We both have way less money than when we met, however we have a bond that is stronger than the diamonds I wear.

Your marriage should be worth more than billions.

[confusedinkansas]

I find it troubling that after 13 years and two children together, your marriage is not strong enough to handle financial stress.

Hard times are a necessary evil in marriage. As soon as the money runs out, so does your love? That's so awful!

My husband and I have only been married a month, after 1.5 years of dating and two years living together

 

The innocence of youth is so refreshing. I'm not slamming what you're saying & in a perfect world any marriage should be able to withstand just about anything that is tossed its way. Because, didn't most of us take those "For Better or For Worse" vows. However, we don't live in a perfect world & life tosses all kinds of crap at us on a daily basis. Mortgages, car payments, kids, sickness, death, financial stresses...... ALL of that affects our marriages.

 

You'd think that folks that have been married 20++ years could withstand anything. Not True! Many of my friends, married 20-25 & even 30 years are divorcing now. People change thruout their lives & when they don't change together, (as happens more often than not) even the smallest thing could set a marriage into a tailspin.

[BlackLovely]

The innocence of youth is so refreshing. I'm not slamming what you're saying & in a perfect world any marriage should be able to withstand just about anything that is tossed its way. Because, didn't most of us take those "For Better or For Worse" vows. However, we don't live in a perfect world & life tosses all kinds of crap at us on a daily basis. Mortgages, car payments, kids, sickness, death, financial stresses...... ALL of that affects our marriages.

 

You'd think that folks that have been married 20++ years could withstand anything. Not True! Many of my friends, married 20-25 & even 30 years are divorcing now. People change thruout their lives & when they don't change together, (as happens more often than not) even the smallest thing could set a marriage into a tailspin.

 

You are dismissing what I posted, based on the assumption that I'm young and innocent. You are being patronizing. Marriage is far from perfect, just like life. If two adults decide to be married, they need to be mature enough to handle challenges.

Since you don't know ANYTHING about what I have endured in my life, your condescending comments are presumptious and rude at best. So sorry that you obviously can't read.

[xxoo]

I find it troubling that after 13 years and two children together, your marriage is not strong enough to handle financial stress.

Hard times are a necessary evil in marriage. As soon as the money runs out, so does your love? That's so awful!

 

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought Tink was saying that she couldn't leave her unfulfilling marriage because of the financial issues--NOT that financial issues were the reason she is wanting to leave.

 

Your marriage should be worth more than billions.

 

A great teammate/partner/spouse IS worth more than billions. That isn't innocence speaking. That is deep wisdom.

[confusedinkansas]

You are dismissing what I posted, based on the assumption that I'm young and innocent. You are being patronizing. Marriage is far from perfect, just like life. If two adults decide to be married, they need to be mature enough to handle challenges.

Since you don't know ANYTHING about what I have endured in my life, your condescending comments are presumptious and rude at best. So sorry that you obviously can't read.

 

I'm not slamming what you're saying & in a perfect world any marriage should be able to withstand just about anything that is tossed its way.

 

Which is why I said in the first line.... Not Slamming what you're saying.

You're right - I would guess from your post that you're very young. Not patronizing or being condesending - At all. If it came across that way - My apologies.

 

Being mature enough to handle challenges is one thing. I'll give you that. And it'd be nice if it were always the case. However, it isn't.

 

You're right, I don't know your story. Nor do you know mine.

From my experience (48 yrs old here/30 yrs. married) Change is the one thing we can count on in life!! ...my life has taken such a turn from the day I got married - sheesh....well that's obviously another story. Never in a million years would I have believed I'd be where I am today.........way back then.

 

NOT that financial issues were the reason she is wanting to leave.

This is what I read as well.

[BlackLovely]

When did I say that people are always mature enough, to handle what real life brings to the marriage?

Since the world is imperfect, it is naïve to bt surprised when challenges come along.

[Tinkerbell1]

I find it troubling that after 13 years and two children together, your marriage is not strong enough to handle financial stress.

Hard times are a necessary evil in marriage. As soon as the money runs out, so does your love? That's so awful!

 

No BL, the marriage isnt in trouble because of financial issues. The main reason, as I posted, still is the fact that my H has withheld sex and affection for many many years. Financial issues are one of the main reasons its not so simple for me to up and leave. My H and I have been through many hard times together. He and I are good friends. I dont know how I conveyed I was ready to call it quits because of the money issues. I am certainly not that shallow.