Guys, do you respect women who have fbuddy relationships? Is that a "low-grade"chic?

[TheMENemy]

Most thinking people feel the same way.

 

I'm a little confused; I thought you didn't like to make generalizations?

 

 

I offered it up as something to ponder, presuming I am working with a thinking person.

 

There are lots of people participating in this discussion, not just one. It's not private. This is also confusing--everyone has their own different opinion.

 

 

I merely asked a question. Think about it.

 

Well you stated your opinion but in a question format. So you didn't really ask a question in terms of seeking input from others.

 

 

Hereby ignored.

 

Why would you ignore a suggestion that you avoid interacting with people who make you feel bad?

 

I don't see how speaking in riddles the way you do is particularly productive but it's a free country.

[TheMENemy]

All I meant by bring it up was to say that the only times I've heard women shaming other women was in high school (where everyone makes a big deal out of this stuff) OR because their religious background calls womens' sexual interactions into question.

 

Yes and I totally agreed with you is that these two venues are very common places for this opinion to be expressed, but certainly not the only ones.

 

 

 

This isn't a thread about religion.

 

OK thanks for clarifying--that's what I thought in the first place.

 

 

I only pointed it out to answer to your assertion that women being catty is where mens' attitude concerning this comes from. You don't need to read 50 pages to figure that out.

 

But the examples you actually used, in high school; religious; and the guy's mom; are all examples which confirm it.

 

 

 

The only times, since high school, I've heard a woman shame another woman's sexual habits is due to religious standards or if the woman was sleeping with a married man. You called it outlier, and I mentioned fundie christians because it is not an outlier influence. Get it now?

 

Not really, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make at all.

[sally4sara]

It's unclear to me why it would bother you at all that someone follows his mother's advice unless of course it was a case of the mother trying to interfere in your relationship with that particular man, which sometimes happens. If that's what happened to you then I understand what a painful experience it must have been for you. I don't believe parents of adult children should interfere in their relationships as that interferes with their autonomy, but unfortunately some people just have a lot of trouble cutting the apron strings.

 

I am not bothered by someone listening to their mother. Cripes! You assert that men think poorly of women for casual sex because they are influenced by women speaking negatively about other women.

Okay, then the biggest female influence on a boy is usually his mother. So someone claiming to think this way because of what they've heard women say about other women and the woman most likely to make this impact on a boy is his mother. But no one I know listens to every damn think their mother says. Claiming it to have an opinion based on the influence of a woman doesn't hold water.

 

Do you remember the thoughts you have that you use to make a point for longer than the time it takes to post them? I am responding to YOU and you seem to have trouble remembering what YOU have posted. Where on Earth did you get the idea that I'm speaking of something I am dealing with or that I have a problem with the idea of someone listening to their ma?

[sally4sara]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t251574/

 

Here is another one up for scrutiny. Notice no one is telling this guy he is "low-grade" or questioning how likely he is to be a good choice for a serious relationships. Not even the men who have posted in both threads are telling him he will be untrustworthy or capable of fidelity in his future relationships despite saying a woman who would be doing the same as this guy is a poor choice.

 

hmmmmm......

 

Why is that?

[TheMENemy]

For further scrutiny when saying the double standard was cued to men by women:

 

Young women were the property of their father.

 

I can't speak for other cultures but as far as I am aware this has not been the case in American culture, even going back to pilgrim days. It sounds like you may be from a different culture perhaps? I've been assuming you were American or at least western European but that assumption may be incorrect in which case my apologies. If we come from different cultures then we may be looking at this from distinctive backgrounds.

 

 

He would choose her husband and as the seal on a business deal, her chastity/hymen was the commodity being offered.

 

I think this is the case for some third world cultures especially those where polygamy is a common practice, even today. But I'm not sure what relevance those practices have to this discussion?

 

 

Her mother was acquired the same way and her return was being tagged as "wife".

 

Sorry but I am unaware of anything even remotely like this occurring in my family, my friends' families, or anyone I have ever heard about. You must be speaking of a non-American culture practices of some kind.

 

 

Love was not her honor, sexual satisfaction was not her honor; it was that she was someone's wife. That her entire honor rests on someone calling her "wife", she is not going to undercut that one shred of honor she has and advise her daughter to flee the situation and seek her own in love and sexual satisfaction. Besides, in this situation, it is not up to her who her daughter marries.

 

Sounds like you are cribbing from a college textbook in women's studies now. You need to clarify if you have some basis of personal experience or knowledge for some of the stuff you have been saying here, because you started out basing your conclusions on your personal experience in high school and the Christian church. It's OK if you want to switch gears this way for purposes of the discussion but it's not clear what your basis for saying any of this stuff is coming from, and I'm curious about that.

 

 

 

In this instance, is it the mother causing the father and the intended groom to place a high value on the chastity/hymen of the young woman?

 

Like I said, as far as I'm aware this scenario you're providing is just not descriptive, at all, of American culture, either right now or historically.

 

 

 

Further more, the intended groom was not examined and inspected for his sexual history in the decision to marry their daughter off to him. Since there is no physical way to determine a man's virginity, people just accepted that he may or many not be a virgin - oh well.

But you can determine if a woman's hymen is intact, even if not how it was broken.

 

OK it's getting pretty clear to me that you're getting all this from some sort of academic source, perhaps a textbook or college course, or independent study; and perhaps you are misapplying anthropological observations that are valid for other cultures to "American" or "western" culture. So please give some insight into how you formed these observations or conclusions, if not by reading it from a primary or secondary source material of some kind? Unless you are a professional anthropologist none of these observations are original or personal to you.

 

 

So people placed a lot of importance on it -because they could. And this is the same thing going on here. People overly scrutinizing a woman's sexual history because they are more familiar with the concept while not applying the same to men because they are familiar with not caring as much about it.

 

I understand that you don't feel the same way that most people feel about this issue, but that doesn't mean most people don't actually feel that way.

 

 

 

 

This does not happen so often today, but if you really want to dissect where the double standard comes from, you're going to have to look at our history of mating as a whole because the echos of long ago are where this mindset comes from. And it was a time where women didn't have as much acceptance or influence in gaining a fair playing field.

 

Unless you are trying to say that somehow you don't have a free range of choice in your own relationships I'm not sure what your point here is.

[9Lives]

I didn't mean that starting the thread itself was unwise. However, I do think that it might have been less contentious had it been on an equal footing from the start, as in "Everyone: do you respect people who have fbuddy relationships?" Talking only about what men think of women in that scenario is fraught.

 

But perhaps it wouldn't have mattered, in terms of civility. What do I know.

 

Anyway, you've every right to start whatever kind of thread you want, and I'm sorry I offended you. And I assure you that I do not think that everyone is interested in everything I post, nor do I think I'm above anything. You only were curious about what men think of women, and you're happy with the answers. That's cool.

 

Well Flying, I SPECIFICALLY did direct it towards MEN. I want to know what they think about it. Of course women can jump and say whatever they choose but I really want to know what is on a mans mind. It has been an incredible learning experience how men think...which I cant say what I really think about their thoughts.

 

I will say that I am disappointed in the double standard that has been living for a long time.

 

I have alot of thought behind this thread that Im making note of as I get out here dating. Makes me a smarter cookie.

[donnamaybe]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t251574/

 

Here is another one up for scrutiny. Notice no one is telling this guy he is "low-grade" or questioning how likely he is to be a good choice for a serious relationships. Not even the men who have posted in both threads are telling him he will be untrustworthy or capable of fidelity in his future relationships despite saying a woman who would be doing the same as this guy is a poor choice.

 

hmmmmm......

 

Why is that?

Ah, yes. The ol' double standard. The standard for those "non-thinking" type folks.

[donnamaybe]

I have alot of thought behind this thread that Im making note of as I get out here dating. Makes me a smarter cookie.

Yup. You'll be able to smell the hypocrites from a MILE away!

 

NEXT!!!!

[9Lives]

I didn't mean that starting the thread itself was unwise. However, I do think that it might have been less contentious had it been on an equal footing from the start, as in "Everyone: do you respect people who have fbuddy relationships?" Talking only about what men think of women in that scenario is fraught.

 

But perhaps it wouldn't have mattered, in terms of civility. What do I know.

 

Anyway, you've every right to start whatever kind of thread you want, and I'm sorry I offended you. And I assure you that I do not think that everyone is interested in everything I post, nor do I think I'm above anything. You only were curious about what men think of women, and you're happy with the answers. That's cool.

 

right, I was curious about a man's mindset towards this stuff. Just like men get on here and ask the women certain questions to get something out of it.

 

I must admit, I have learned alot..what is so funny is that it is universal so its alot to think about

[9Lives]

No one says that men should not avoid women based on her past - we are saying he shouldn't avoid women based on whether she had FWB or not. I challenge you to find women that avoid men because they once had FWB. Women do not avoid men for this reason and even men like Dogbert expect women not to avoid him even though during his 20's he was only focused on "getting laid" and even recommended to another male poster to continue a sexual relationship with a woman but not to get serious with her! But at the same time he says to avoid women based on criteria that he himself fails.

 

So the double standard is the opposite of what you are claiming.

 

Well there is certainly a double standard. It like the woman has to be discret and protect her past. The man can be loose as hell and we are suppose to see it as men doing their thang. I hate it

[9Lives]

Ah, yes. The ol' double standard. The standard for those "non-thinking" type folks.

 

Well to keep it real, we DO judge the man past but not his sexual past. We judge his ability to be responsible, his cheating habits, his financial status.

 

EVERYONE is judging. Truth is...(not saying I agree with it).....men dont want to marry a woman who he knowing knows was a hoe or slept around alot. That is not going to change.

 

But I dont want to marry a man who cant be loving, respectful, honest, and doesnt have a job. That is to name a few.

[TheMENemy]

I am not bothered by someone listening to their mother. Cripes!

 

But, that was a specific example that you used? If it doesn't bother you why did you choose to use it as an example of what you're upset about?

 

 

You assert that men think poorly of women for casual sex because they are influenced by women speaking negatively about other women.

 

Yes that is certainly a major reason for it. Most men are conditioned to want to please women in order to have sexual access. I think most people would agree with that "generalization."

 

Any man who is in a serious relationship or married who publicly speaks favorably and with endorsement/approval to his partner or spouse about a promiscuous, sexually "open" woman, is likely to get a serious "roasting" from his partner. The sexually open woman, and the husband's explicit approval of her, represent a direct potential or perceived threat to the sanctity of the marital relationship.

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, then the biggest female influence on a boy is usually his mother.

 

That's a reasonable generalization that I would agree with.

 

 

So someone claiming to think this way because of what they've heard women say about other women and the woman most likely to make this impact on a boy is his mother.

 

I'm not sure how you're jumping from saying "mom is a major influence on junior" directly to: "mom is a major influence on junior's opinions about sexuality and relationships." Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

 

 

But no one I know listens to every damn think their mother says. Claiming it to have an opinion based on the influence of a woman doesn't hold water.

 

It doesn't hold water for you, but that's probably a function of being raised in a fundamentalist Christian household but renouncing those beliefs, as I assume you must have.

 

Obviously people who renounce a fundamentalist religious upbringing that they find repressive are not going to be coming at this issue from the same place as the rest of us.

 

 

 

Do you remember the thoughts you have that you use to make a point for longer than the time it takes to post them?

 

Yes and my basic point in this discussion is that no one should be subject to shame and blame for whatever criteria they think is appropriate for making their personal relationship decisions. I've paraphrased it but I think I've been very consistent on this in this discussion.

 

 

 

I am responding to YOU and you seem to have trouble remembering what YOU have posted. Where on Earth did you get the idea that I'm speaking of something I am dealing with or that I have a problem with the idea of someone listening to their ma?

 

I think I understand. To you this discussion is theoretical/hypothetical, in contrast, I'm taking it from a practical point of view.

[sally4sara]

I can't speak for other cultures but as far as I am aware this has not been the case in American culture, even going back to pilgrim days. It sounds like you may be from a different culture perhaps? I've been assuming you were American or at least western European but that assumption may be incorrect in which case my apologies. If we come from different cultures then we may be looking at this from distinctive backgrounds.

 

I think this is the case for some third world cultures especially those where polygamy is a common practice, even today. But I'm not sure what relevance those practices have to this discussion?

 

Sorry but I am unaware of anything even remotely like this occurring in my family, my friends' families, or anyone I have ever heard about. You must be speaking of a non-American culture practices of some kind.

 

Sounds like you are cribbing from a college textbook in women's studies now. You need to clarify if you have some basis of personal experience or knowledge for some of the stuff you have been saying here, because you started out basing your conclusions on your personal experience in high school and the Christian church. It's OK if you want to switch gears this way for purposes of the discussion but it's not clear what your basis for saying any of this stuff is coming from, and I'm curious about that.

 

Like I said, as far as I'm aware this scenario you're providing is just not descriptive, at all, of American culture, either right now or historically.

 

OK it's getting pretty clear to me that you're getting all this from some sort of academic source, perhaps a textbook or college course, or independent study; and perhaps you are misapplying anthropological observations that are valid for other cultures to "American" or "western" culture. So please give some insight into how you formed these observations or conclusions, if not by reading it from a primary or secondary source material of some kind? Unless you are a professional anthropologist none of these observations are original or personal to you.

 

I understand that you don't feel the same way that most people feel about this issue, but that doesn't mean most people don't actually feel that way.

 

Unless you are trying to say that somehow you don't have a free range of choice in your own relationships I'm not sure what your point here is.

 

YOU are the one who came on here speaking about where the mentality comes from. All I see is you invalidating any fact that pokes a hole in your theory. I have never taken a women's studies course.

 

Arranged marriages were practiced in the US until the late 1800s. It was not the only way people got married but it wasn't uncommon either. And since the US is a blend of many many cultures, who is to say what is or is not an American practice.

 

There are still arranged marriages in the US today, though they are very rare.

 

Here is an article that explains it, the reasons, and the attitudes concerning permissiveness given to male sexuality that is directly opposed to the standards given to women of the same time.

 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/787875/the_history_of_arranged_marriages_in.html?cat=41

 

Myself? Predominantly of Irish stock. My great grandmother was brought over to marry my great grandfather and he was a practical stranger to her. Do you think it was about love for them?

 

Has some of this been discussed in a womens studies class? Maybe. But something being discussed in a womens studies class doesn't make it fictional or invalid. But then, I've gotten use to some men doing that simply because it doesn't jibe with their opinions and feelings.

 

I'm tired of you. You can't seem to remember what you post after you are done posting it and it makes debating with you pointless. You'd have been kicked off the team by Mr. Russell if you'd pulled this crap in his debate class.

[9Lives]

I feel like it empowers us women on here who have read this text to know how to handle these men if we decide to be fwb or fb. It also teaches us that you really cant tell your so what you did before you got with him cause I dont care what he says...he cant handle it.

Men have double standards. They get on my nerves with some of the behavior they deem manly which is really fking stupid and immature and disgusting. I have played the mans game in the past and realize that I was following donkeys. Instead now ...I wear my own hat, my own head and I no longer playing their game. Alot of times, they are just trying to see how dump you are or how what they can get away with.

 

With a man...respect is EARNED...not given! Not saying all men are donkeys but I have followed them thinking they are leading me to a good place but because I wasnt being a woman and holding my own....I got played. That sht is OVER!

[9Lives]

Im also AMAZED as some of the anger from some people on here and I wonder why?

 

Was you burned?

Did you think men dont think this way?

Are you disappointed?

Ae you shocked?

 

Why the anger? Men can dish it out but they cant take it. That mainly whats up.

[donnamaybe]

Well to keep it real, we DO judge the man past but not his sexual past. We judge his ability to be responsible, his cheating habits, his financial status.

 

EVERYONE is judging. Truth is...(not saying I agree with it).....men dont want to marry a woman who he knowing knows was a hoe or slept around alot. That is not going to change.

 

But I dont want to marry a man who cant be loving, respectful, honest, and doesnt have a job. That is to name a few.

Of course, but in this day and age, who in their right mind expects to be able to get away with calling one gender derogatory names for the same thing the other gender is idolized for? I wouldn't expect a guy to want an irresponsible cheating woman any more than I would want a man who behaved that way. HOWEVER, just because a woman now has full control of her own sexuality does NOT mean she's going to be a cheat, nor that she has emotional problems. If someone, male or female, is using sex as a means of validation, then yes - that's most likely a problem. Having an FWB doesn't mean any of these issues are present.

[donnamaybe]

I feel like it empowers us women on here who have read this text to know how to handle these men if we decide to be fwb or fb. It also teaches us that you really cant tell your so what you did before you got with him cause I dont care what he says...he cant handle it.

Men have double standards. They get on my nerves with some of the behavior they deem manly which is really fking stupid and immature and disgusting. I have played the mans game in the past and realize that I was following donkeys. Instead now ...I wear my own hat, my own head and I no longer playing their game. Alot of times, they are just trying to see how dump you are or how what they can get away with.

 

With a man...respect is EARNED...not given! Not saying all men are donkeys but I have followed them thinking they are leading me to a good place but because I wasnt being a woman and holding my own....I got played. That sht is OVER!

My man knows all about my past, FWB included, but he knows more than that also, and he is able to make a full assessment based on full knowledge. He's a thinker.

[donnamaybe]

You'd have been kicked off the team by Mr. Russell if you'd pulled this crap in his debate class.

He's already been kicked off LS NUMEROUS times.

[TheMENemy]

YOU are the one who came on here speaking about where the mentality comes from.

 

Actually we are all coming on here for the purpose of stating our opinions, right?

 

 

All I see is you invalidating any fact that pokes a hole in your theory.

 

I agree with this. I have done that.

 

 

I have never taken a women's studies course.

 

OK I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You must have some source of education or information for your anthropological comments. If you don't want to divulge those sources you don't have to, but it would help to understand your perspective.

 

 

 

Arranged marriages were practiced in the US until the late 1800s.

 

I wasn't aware of that.

 

 

It was not the only way people got married but it wasn't uncommon either. And since the US is a blend of many many cultures, who is to say what is or is not an American practice.

 

The vast majority of marriages in the United States, today, are not arranged marriages.

 

 

 

 

There are still arranged marriages in the US today, though they are very rare.

 

That means it's not an "American practice."

 

 

 

Here is an article that explains it, the reasons, and the attitudes concerning permissiveness given to male sexuality that is directly opposed to the standards given to women of the same time.

 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/787875/the_history_of_arranged_marriages_in.html?cat=41

 

Thanks I'll take a look at it sometime.

 

 

 

Myself? Predominantly of Irish stock. My great grandmother was brought over to marry my great grandfather and he was a practical stranger to her. Do you think it was about love for them?

 

I don't know. How would I?

 

 

 

 

Has some of this been discussed in a womens studies class? Maybe.

 

I wouldn't know, it just sounded like you might have taken a class from some of the things you had been saying. But I guess you got your viewpoints from reading the article you linked to and others like it. That's fine, I guess you can derive your POV from wherever seems most appropriate to you.

 

 

 

But something being discussed in a womens studies class doesn't make it fictional or invalid.

 

This is hypothetical since neither of us have had the privilege of participation in a women's studies class. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

 

But then, I've gotten use to some men doing that simply because it doesn't jibe with their opinions and feelings.

 

Yes that's pretty normal behavior. Most men, and women, behave in ways that jibe with their opinions and feelings. Why wouldn't they?

 

 

 

I'm tired of you.

 

Um OK?

 

 

 

You can't seem to remember what you post after you are done posting it and it makes debating with you pointless.

 

OK let me repeat it:

 

I believe everyone, whatever gender, whatever sexual preference, is fully entitled to use whatever criteria they deem appropriate for themselves, in choosing relationships; and without being shamed or blamed for their personal preferences/choices.

 

I'm sorry if you feel my position is so controversial, that you need to "debate" it!

 

 

You'd have been kicked off the team by Mr. Russell if you'd pulled this crap in his debate class.

 

I guess I must just be a little more open-minded about relationships than you are, but you're certainly entitled to your opinions which are fully valid for yourself and I fully support your right to have them.

[TheMENemy]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t251574/

 

Here is another one up for scrutiny. Notice no one is telling this guy he is "low-grade" or questioning how likely he is to be a good choice for a serious relationships.

Maybe no one posting in that thread holds that opinion of him? If you feel otherwise aren't you free to post in that thread and explain why?

 

 

Not even the men who have posted in both threads are telling him he will be untrustworthy or capable of fidelity in his future relationships despite saying a woman who would be doing the same as this guy is a poor choice.

 

hmmmmm......

 

Why is that?

 

Why was this thread started by a female member?

 

Remember what I said earlier, that generally speaking, men follow the lead of women in these sorts of attitudes, at least in American culture?

 

If you can answer the question as to why a female member started this thread, not a male member, maybe you will gain a little more insight into where these attitudes are really coming from?

[sally4sara]

Remember what I said earlier, that generally speaking, men follow the lead of women in these sorts of attitudes, at least in American culture?

 

I'll simplify it for you so you don't get confused.

 

Your OPINION of where this mentality comes from is not supported by fact and it is only reflective of your "outlier" little slice of life. YOUR mother must have been quite outspoken about "loose women". But that does not mean the other men in this thread hold their opinions on the matter due some woman speaking negatively about other women.

 

Men were not lead to the double standard by women. Not here in the US or anywhere else. To believe that, you'd need to ignore a multitude of other factual information. You know - like how you've done in all your posts on the subject.

 

Toodles!

[TheMENemy]

Well Flying, I SPECIFICALLY did direct it towards MEN. I want to know what they think about it.

 

It seems plenty of men have answered indicating that the prevailing opinion is that women who are willing to engage in casual sexual relationships, at least on a frequent basis, are not as respected as women who don't do this. This is a generalization and many men do NOT feel this way, which is also clear from reading the thread.

 

So, now you know what men think about it--or at least the ones who have participated in this discussion.

 

 

Of course women can jump and say whatever they choose but I really want to know what is on a mans mind. It has been an incredible learning experience how men think...which I cant say what I really think about their thoughts.

 

Are you stating that you really didn't know how men felt about this issue before posting your thread? That's unusual, but interesting. I guess you learned something.

 

 

 

I will say that I am disappointed in the double standard that has been living for a long time.

 

There's no double standard that I can see. You have absolutely no obligation to be in any kind of a relationship with someone who has different views on these things than you do; and I didn't see any response from any man saying otherwise. That's a single standard, not a double standard--be with who you want to be, on terms that are mutually agreeable.

 

 

 

I have alot of thought behind this thread that Im making note of as I get out here dating. Makes me a smarter cookie.

 

Well definitely if you weren't previously aware that most men don't have as much respect for sexually open women it's good you know that now. Hopefully this new knowledge will help you make better choices in the future.

[flying]

Maybe no one posting in that thread holds that opinion of him? If you feel otherwise aren't you free to post in that thread and explain why?

 

 

 

 

Why was this thread started by a female member?

 

Remember what I said earlier, that generally speaking, men follow the lead of women in these sorts of attitudes, at least in American culture?

 

If you can answer the question as to why a female member started this thread, not a male member, maybe you will gain a little more insight into where these attitudes are really coming from?

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but if you go back a page (p. 53) the OP explains it there. She wanted to know what men think of women who've had FWB. She goes on to say that she's disappointed in the double standard, and given the responses thinks that it's probably best for a woman who's had a FWB to hide it from a boyfriend/husband.

 

I don't really think that says anything about men taking cues from women though. Seems more like the other way around, in this case.

 

Edited to add: Never mind, I see you've found her posts.

[donnamaybe]

I'll simplify it for you so you don't get confused.

My, but aren't you the little eternal optimist though!?

[sally4sara]

My, but aren't you the little eternal optimist though!?

 

Well I'd like to believe education is the equalizer of life but sometimes I have wonder.....