Sabali Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Update: I'm at barnes & noble right nowm I grab my coffee and head on over to the second floor only to find her here again. First thing that comes to mind, walk on over and sit by her. Only one slight porblem, theirs no chair at her table. FML lmao This reminds me of Dr. Zachary Smith from that old TV show Lost in Space: Oh, the pain, the pain! It is so painful to read your update, Tyson. Tyson? Buddy? We really need to get you out of this whole afraid-to-speak-to-another-human-being nightmare. I want to see you win, man! You can't think about chairs, tables, dinner, or table cloths, your surroundings or anything when you see her. Just do it! When you see her, don't even think. Start thinking on your feet once you reach her. It will be more natural. Could you possibly screw up? Yes? Could you possibly succeed? Yes. You won't know until you try. Just please stop thinking. We're not paying you to think here. Your thinking is getting in the way. Tyson, you will make me very happy on your next update when you tell me you just barged in and spoke to her. I am cheering for you!
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Jaded and zen, you both make good points. At first when jaded started with the whole kino and alpha thing I was like " oh, boy, here comes another follower of some salesman capitalizing off mens' insecurities" and it is written all over his posts but he does make some very valid points. Zen, I agree withba lot of you said as well. How can you both be right in a heated discussion? Well, certain men have to pay more attention to one of you while some will have to pay more attention to the other. For instance, the OP really needs to pay attention to Jaded's Hamlet comment while most should avoid touching a stranger they meet in a studious coffee shop. Anyway OP, you have to speak to a woman that attracts you when you out and about immediately. If you take one second to think about it, you will come off as awkward and wind up making posts like The OP you made. Force yourself to talk immediately and learn to speak to women on your feet. If you are not experienced with this, you will surely sound silly occasionally but this wil become farc less with experience. Your "queen" likely smelled your fear and saw it as "safe" to sit by you. By the way, Zen, you just have to abandon the whole "friend zone doesn't exist" stand. That's like saying outter space doesn't exist. Men know the friend zone too well. We know it like sports. google cajun keys to the vip zen you are off the mark on the get her coffee supplicating ****. I wish talking to random girls worked as you described. Look dude lets just be realistic here. Instead of trying to bang this broad... an expectation which is likely very unrealistic.. have a 10 minute conversation. You arent going to go for a date or anything. Just see if you can shoot the **** like 2 friends who occasionally see each other. If you go in looking for a date I can gaurentee you will come off needy. Again success here is talking for 10 minutes... NO NUMBERS or dates... start going for those once you can get good conversations going. Also, as someone who is socially tuned in much more than you, I can tell you need to socialize more. Make friends with a couple girls just to get used to hanging out with them. Drink a few times a week every week for a while. Hope this helps.
Sabali Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 google cajun keys to the vip zen you are off the mark on the get her coffee supplicating ****. I wish talking to random girls worked as you described. Look dude lets just be realistic here. Instead of trying to bang this broad... an expectation which is likely very unrealistic.. have a 10 minute conversation. You arent going to go for a date or anything. Just see if you can shoot the **** like 2 friends who occasionally see each other. If you go in looking for a date I can gaurentee you will come off needy. Again success here is talking for 10 minutes... NO NUMBERS or dates... start going for those once you can get good conversations going. Also, as someone who is socially tuned in much more than you, I can tell you need to socialize more. Make friends with a couple girls just to get used to hanging out with them. Drink a few times a week every week for a while. Hope this helps. I was thinking of this but I learned many years ago to never take away a man's dream. You just have to work with him on it but never take it away. But I think you made an excellent point. I would be very happy just to see this guy go up and start talking to the woman. That is the main goal here. As I've said before, he is at the extreme end of shyness so just approaching her would be victory. I am cheering for you, Tyson!
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 google cajun keys to the vip zen you are off the mark on the get her coffee supplicating ****. Huh? I'd generally say, "Hey do you want anything?" if I were going to get a coffee and someone was watching my stuff. Or do you mean bringing her back a coffee---I agree that's bold, but I don't think it's a horrible thing or anyone would be against it so long as it was approached in a friendly manner. I've had a fellow grab me a coffee fairly randomly before, but that was abroad, and we're all a little friendlier her, I'll admit. There's that, "Hey! You speak English!" feeling. I wish talking to random girls worked as you described. Look dude lets just be realistic here. Instead of trying to bang this broad... an expectation which is likely very unrealistic.. have a 10 minute conversation. You arent going to go for a date or anything. Just see if you can shoot the **** like 2 friends who occasionally see each other. If you go in looking for a date I can gaurentee you will come off needy. Again success here is talking for 10 minutes... NO NUMBERS or dates... start going for those once you can get good conversations going.That's pretty much exactly what I suggested, except I don't see how getting someone's number or FB or something hurts, depending on how you do it. . . once you've got a rapport going. I agree wholeheartedly on going for the 10 minute conversation first; if it doesn't work out, you know there's no rapport. That said, I've gone out with fellows who approached me in the grocery store! Why? We had a rapport and I found them attractive, and I was available at the time. It really is that simple. Also, as someone who is socially tuned in much more than you, I can tell you need to socialize more. Make friends with a couple girls just to get used to hanging out with them. Drink a few times a week every week for a while. Hope this help. How does drinking make someone more socially tuned? I mean, I drink (I even get drunk) but some of the friendliest, most social people I know don't really drink, certainly not a few times a week. I totally agree with making platonic friends of the opposite sex (truly platonic friends!). It makes dating so much easier later since you can talk to people like people.
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Hey Tyson, Don't listen to this garbage. That's her opinion but it's wrong. If you become friends first, and by friends meaning she's delegated you to mayor of 'just friends' town while she enjoys your attention.. Just don't, ask the majority of love shack what they think about that. For someone who truly doesn't believe in the friend zone, can we give her any credibility on... well.. on anything? I won't comment on the rest, because we've already been round and round on your inanity, I said "truly platonic friends" so how on earth does the bolded part apply at all? You shouldn't want to date your truly platonic friends.
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Huh? I'd generally say, "Hey do you want anything?" if I were going to get a coffee and someone was watching my stuff. Or do you mean bringing her back a coffee---I agree that's bold, but I don't think it's a horrible thing or anyone would be against it so long as it was approached in a friendly manner. I've had a fellow grab me a coffee fairly randomly before, but that was abroad, and we're all a little friendlier her, I'll admit. There's that, "Hey! You speak English!" feeling. Do you want anything implies you are willing to buy her something. Yeah specifically the coffee. Getting a girl a coffee/beer/whatever does NOTHING to further the relationship. In fact it does the OPPOSITE. Now you are framing yourself as a potential source of income for the girl. You also put yourself in the bucket/potentially put yourself in the bucket of all those guys girls are friends with, who are just trying to get in their pants, and thus will do almost anything that's asked of them! That's pretty much exactly what I suggested, except I don't see how getting someone's number or FB or something hurts, depending on how you do it. . . once you've got a rapport going. I agree wholeheartedly on going for the 10 minute conversation first; if it doesn't work out, you know there's no rapport. That said, I've gone out with fellows who approached me in the grocery store! Why? We had a rapport and I found them attractive, and I was available at the time. It really is that simple. It actually is completely different. The reason being is that there's a completely different MINDSET associated with the two. My side, he's sitting down next to a girl, and decides to have a 10 minute conversation because it's the POLITE thing to do. It would almost be awkward not to make friendly chit chat. You aren't about to talk to her for an hour instead of studying - studying is more important. You also have no need to ask for her number or whatever. You're just being polite. On you're side he WANTS something. He wants to bang this chick. He's thinking of the steps to get there. Do I tell her she's pretty? Do I buy her fancy things? What if I tell her I go to the gym a lot? Etc. Numerous things that come off as him trying to PLEASE her. This is the opposite of what we want! Her trying to please him! How does drinking make someone more socially tuned? I mean, I drink (I even get drunk) but some of the friendliest, most social people I know don't really drink, certainly not a few times a week. I totally agree with making platonic friends of the opposite sex (truly platonic friends!). It makes dating so much easier later since you can talk to people like people. Alcohol primary ingredient is actually the dingleberry. The dingleberry is this magical fruit that makes everything awesome and great in your life ;-). Even though I truly believe and hope that's true, in all seriousness it isn't the alcohol that has to do with anything. In fact if you get loaded it's going to HURT your socializing to a certain extent. The key is going out and talking to MANY different people. Slowly you figure out how to get along with MOST of them. Social people are social because they are in social situations constantly. Obviously I can't turn your brain into this really wicked social person. But I can tell you to go hang out with large groups of people as often as possible. One way to do this is drinking!
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Hey Tyson, Don't listen to this garbage. That's her opinion but it's wrong. If you become friends first, and by friends meaning she's delegated you to mayor of 'just friends' town while she enjoys your attention.. Just don't, ask the majority of love shack what they think about that. For someone who truly doesn't believe in the friend zone, can we give her any credibility on... well.. on anything? Just go out there and try, whatever happens, happens. You may not experience the "friend-zone" as me and zengirl as speaking of. I don't exist in the "friend-zone". If a girl I'm interested in "friend-zones" me I'm not her friend. This just means we aren't hooking up. I'm also not going to be friends with her. She can get upset, frankly I don't care. I am friends with girls because quite frankly they make good friends. There is no underlying goal with these girls. I'm not trying to bang them. They are in generally mostly seperate from people I want to date. It took me a while mentally to be able to do this. edit: I agree with zengirl. I think you are misinterpreting our posts. We aren't telling him to be friends to try to trick her into sleeping with us.
meerkat stew Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 The problem with making "friends" first, as a prelude to prospective dating from a pool of friends, is that it is needlessly complex and has lots of potential for misunderstandings and hurt feelings. No one wants to feel "I only befriended you in hopes you would become attracted and date me." It can make people feel used or betrayed on both ends. No one likes to feel played with either. IMO, it's better to segregate one's dating socializing from one's friendly socializing (but DEFINITELY use one's friendly socializing to meet candidates for dating introduced by friends), and for the guy to ask out before befriending if there is any attraction on his end. Then, depending on her answer, a real friendship can be pursued or not if dating is not in the cards, but if and only if the foundation of the relationship is not unrequitted attraction. If a dating relationship results from a "friendship first" that's great and a bonus, but not the normal way things shape up, nor an expectation that should be present. Another thing is that people use the word "friend" mostly inaccurately these days to make excuses, get what they want, etc. People you meet once through others aren't "friends" without more. People whom you have a drink with or work with or share a campus with aren't "friends" without more. People who you make out with or sleep with but then decide you don't want to continue aren't "friends." I removed the "just friends" category from my relationships long ago, and suggest other men consider doing so. "Friends" is not a fallback position for someone to continue to get what they want from someone they aren't interested in dating yet still want to keep around for other advantages. Women who use phrases like "just friends" whether applied to me or some other guy, are quickly weeded out by me these days, and my success in dating and with women have increased dramatically by weeding those out. To clarify, I have lots of female friends, but they are never "just friends" and don't think in those terms or use the "pseudo-friends" concept to get what they want from men. Once you throw out the "just friends" category from relationships, you can also throw out the "friendzone" concept, which I've always found kind of bogus also. Attraction or lack thereof is usually much simpler than doing something or not that can "land one in the friendzone," and is usually a weasel term used by men who resent the fact that all the "befriending" of women they do when they should be pursuing them sexually, flirting and seducing them is not getting them what they want in their sexual life. When a man just asks women he finds attractive out on dates, there's no "friendzone" possible, she says yes or not and both move on with their lives.
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Do you want anything implies you are willing to buy her something. Yeah specifically the coffee. Getting a girl a coffee/beer/whatever does NOTHING to further the relationship. In fact it does the OPPOSITE. Now you are framing yourself as a potential source of income for the girl. You also put yourself in the bucket/potentially put yourself in the bucket of all those guys girls are friends with, who are just trying to get in their pants, and thus will do almost anything that's asked of them! Oh, dear God. I've bought people coffee for doing less than watch my things and seem interesting, and I'm a girl. People are so fussy with money. I wasn't suggesting he buy her things to woo her with material things. I didn't even think of it in that way. That said, I don't think it's tragic not to offer to buy the gal a coffee (or even pick one up, as paying may or may not be implied). . . it was something he mused about in his original post, so I addressed it. It actually is completely different. The reason being is that there's a completely different MINDSET associated with the two. My side, he's sitting down next to a girl, and decides to have a 10 minute conversation because it's the POLITE thing to do. It would almost be awkward not to make friendly chit chat. You aren't about to talk to her for an hour instead of studying - studying is more important. You also have no need to ask for her number or whatever. You're just being polite. On you're side he WANTS something. He wants to bang this chick. He's thinking of the steps to get there. Do I tell her she's pretty? Do I buy her fancy things? What if I tell her I go to the gym a lot? Etc. Numerous things that come off as him trying to PLEASE her. This is the opposite of what we want! Her trying to please him! Yeah, I get now that it is different, but here's how it is: In my side, he's a person trying to connect with another human being who he happens to think is an attractive girl. Something may or may not come of this, whatever he does. I suggest being friendly and taking social cues from there. In your side, it's a game that's about control and him getting her to please him. That becomes dangerous for a variety of reasons. One is that it makes the other person less of a person. Two is that it makes it more about getting to the goal than honestly assessing what you feel or want from any given situation. I could go on, but there's no point. To each their own, but I don't believe dating is some sort of bizarre game or power play. Alcohol primary ingredient is actually the dingleberry. The dingleberry is this magical fruit that makes everything awesome and great in your life ;-). Even though I truly believe and hope that's true, in all seriousness it isn't the alcohol that has to do with anything. In fact if you get loaded it's going to HURT your socializing to a certain extent. The key is going out and talking to MANY different people. Slowly you figure out how to get along with MOST of them. Social people are social because they are in social situations constantly. Obviously I can't turn your brain into this really wicked social person. But I can tell you to go hang out with large groups of people as often as possible. One way to do this is drinking! I definitely advise everyone be sociable and friendly, and that includes having friendly conversations with strangers. The problem with making "friends" first, as a prelude to prospective dating from a pool of friends, is that it is needlessly complex and has lots of potential for misunderstandings and hurt feelings. No one wants to feel "I only befriended you in hopes you would become attracted and date me." It can make people feel used or betrayed on both ends. No one likes to feel played with either. True. I don't think there's anything wrong with befriending someone and dating them slowly but with a clear intention. But I agree with disingenuous friendship being a bad idea. That doesn't mean you have to go whiz, bang! with things----it's really more about clear intentions than anything else. And there isn't anything wrong with verging into at least conversation! territory before deciding your intentions. It's not like they can't evolve. It's just bad to be anything but honest about them. IMO, it's better to segregate one's dating socializing from one's friendly socializing (but DEFINITELY use one's friendly socializing to meet candidates for dating introduced by friends), and for the guy to ask out before befriending if there is any attraction on his end. Then, depending on her answer, a real friendship can be pursued or not if dating is not in the cards, but if and only if the foundation of the relationship is not unrequitted attraction. If a dating relationship results from a "friendship first" that's great and a bonus, but not the normal way things shape up, nor an expectation that should be present. Another thing is that people use the word "friend" mostly inaccurately these days to make excuses, get what they want, etc. People you meet once through others aren't "friends" without more. People whom you have a drink with or work with or share a campus with aren't "friends" without more. People who you make out with or sleep with but then decide you don't want to continue aren't "friends." I don't know why you're equating being friendly. . . a normal trait. . . with a near stranger with carrying some sort of torch for a "friend." The two are vastly different. I am very much against the latter, in men or women. I just don't believe the former puts you in some sort of mythical zone that you wouldn't be in otherwise, if you have a conversation or two with the person first. How can anybody know that they even want to date someone without at least having a friendly conversation with them? At that point, they're just trying to "collect" the person because they find them physically attractive. I removed the "just friends" category from my relationships long ago, and suggest other men consider doing so. "Friends" is not a fallback position for someone to continue to get what they want from someone they aren't interested in dating yet still want to keep around for other advantages. Women who use phrases like "just friends" whether applied to me or some other guy, are quickly weeded out by me these days, and my success in dating and with women have increased dramatically by weeding those out. To clarify, I have lots of female friends, but they are never "just friends" and don't think in those terms or use the "pseudo-friends" concept to get what they want from men. That seems healthy. Friendships should be real friendships. But let's not pretend that there aren't platonic female-female or male-male friendships where it's more about using the person. What you're really saying is you don't want friends who are just using you for some reason, and you don't want to go into a friendship just using it to get a girl to go out with you. (At least that's my summary so far.) I agree entirely. What I don't see is how being friendly, in general, is bad. Or how being friendly, rather than aggressive in the briefest of beginnings, to actually assess a person, has a downside. (Or puts you in some mythical weird Friend Zone. When I say the Friend Zone is a myth, I mean, as I explained that the way men view it, as some place you get put if you're too "nice" or you don't approach a girl with enough alpha he-man attitude. . . I don't doubt many men and women stay friends with people they're really hoping to date and create unhealthy attachments. But they put themselves there. And they were never going to get anywhere with that person, for whatever reason that has more to do with the other person/compatibility/attraction than their approach being too friendly.) Once you throw out the "just friends" category from relationships, you can also throw out the "friendzone" concept, which I've always found kind of bogus also. Attraction or lack thereof is usually much simpler than doing something or not that can "land one in the friendzone," and is usually a weasel term used by men who resent the fact that all the "befriending" of women they do when they should be pursuing them sexually, flirting and seducing them is not getting them what they want in their sexual life. When a man just asks women he finds attractive out on dates, there's no "friendzone" possible, she says yes or not and both move on with their lives. That seems reasonable, in theory, though again: A brief conversation, or something, is required for me to ever go on a date with a guy, personally. If I feel like he's asking me out solely because of the way I look because he knows literally nothing else, he gets a "No." So, that's my biggest point about being friendly. As I said, I'm not saying hang out at her house and do her toenails. . . just talk to the girl before you even decide whether or not she's someone you'd like to ask out and see if she gives you any social cues to suggest she's interested. You may not experience the "friend-zone" as me and zengirl as speaking of. I don't exist in the "friend-zone". If a girl I'm interested in "friend-zones" me I'm not her friend. This just means we aren't hooking up. I'm also not going to be friends with her. She can get upset, frankly I don't care. I am friends with girls because quite frankly they make good friends. There is no underlying goal with these girls. I'm not trying to bang them. They are in generally mostly seperate from people I want to date. It took me a while mentally to be able to do this. edit: I agree with zengirl. I think you are misinterpreting our posts. We aren't telling him to be friends to try to trick her into sleeping with us. That is pretty much reasonable. Don't be friends with people you'd rather be dating. Don't act like men and women can't be friends. Have a conversation with a girl before you start trying random kino crap or coming onto her. That's my advice, at least.
meerkat stew Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Well, I have several female friends that are very attractive, and I personally find them sexually attractive whom I wouldn't bang instantly upon finding them naked in bed. Am just at a point in my life where every opportunity to have sex is not necessarily a good idea to act on and I'm not always in the mood for it either. I'm not gay, have a healthy sex drive, and probably not the only man who feels this way, so not sure I agree with the general aptness of the analogy. Maybe I'm missing the point though.
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 (edited) JadedHeart says Actually, it's you that's misinterpreting my post. I do NOT condone being friends first, or friends at all. It was actually zengirl that suggested that notion. Actually, I didn't really, before any of this came up. I suggested being friendly and treating the girl like a person, rather than simply an object of desire. This has several benefits: one being it might make the guy more comfortable approaching, and the other being it might make the girl more comfortable with his approach, and yet another being that it can make rejection a bit simpler and softer, if it occurs. JadedHeart says If you read through the old posts I said to make your intentions known from the start. If she isn't attracted to you then you can move on without having wasted your time. If she is attracted to you great! A win win situation. Okay, but maybe she has to get to know you for 5 minutes before being attracted to you. Though I suppose, as a way of weeding out those who consider rapport and personality important, even in terms of committing an evening of your life to, this is a way to weed out by going for it right away. I've certainly no worries with men who do this. It just shows: They only care what I look like. JadedHeart says I do have friend girls by the way, I'm just not physically attracted to them. So if any of your friends were to lay butt naked in bed you're telling me you would tell her no, I don't want to ruin our friendship. That's either telling me you're gay, or they're ugly. Same with zengirl, tell her to lay butt naked in her bed, and call every one of her truly 100% platonic male friends. Are you telling me they'd do the same as you? If they bang zengirl, then I'm right. If they don't, that means she's ugly as sin and horribly repulsive. I'm right again. Uh. . . I don't go laying around naked in any of my friend's beds. Do you? That's just weird. I don't know why you think only ugly people can have friends of the opposite sex. There's more to dating compatibility than looks. And here's the thing about pretty girls, honestly. . . a lot of men know this, and it's an old saying: "Tell a smart girl she's pretty. Tell a pretty girl she's smart." I don't much like lame PUA advice, or the men who say it, but this is the only true nugget I've ever heard. If you see a pretty girl, an approach that considers more than her looks is likely to be 10x more effective. Edited August 3, 2010 by zengirl
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 (edited) Actually, it's you that's misinterpreting my post. I do NOT condone being friends first, or friends at all. It was actually zengirl that suggested that notion. If you read through the old posts I said to make your intentions known from the start. If she isn't attracted to you then you can move on without having wasted your time. If she is attracted to you great! A win win situation. When in my posts do I suggest tricking a girl into sleeping with someone under the false pretense of friends? I've already said it before, I don't believe in that. I'm either dating or nothing, if she wants to be just friends that's fine, but I'm not going to waste my time. I do have friend girls by the way, I'm just not physically attracted to them. So if any of your friends were to lay butt naked in bed you're telling me you would tell her no, I don't want to ruin our friendship. That's either telling me you're gay, or they're ugly. Same with zengirl, tell her to lay butt naked in her bed, and call every one of her truly 100% platonic male friends. Are you telling me they'd do the same as you? If they bang zengirl, then I'm right. If they don't, that means she's ugly as sin and horribly repulsive. I'm right again. To answer your bolded part, I will start with the underlined part. Here is where you suggest such things. I almost thought you saw the matrix at the start there too. Tricky tricky. To your last point literally I thought of the situation, and my first reaction would be to say (not even think), "How the **** did this happen? Why are you naked in my bed?" Now whether I'd go with a friends-with-benefits situation or not is dependant on the girl. If I think she can do so without getting attached and be ok with it then yes I'd be fine with that as well. Assuming I"m also okay with it. If I think she'd want more I likely wouldn't. It would eventually result in us not being friends anymore. So yeah, in the given scenario if she was naked in my bed+she would get clingy if I went out with her I would leave. Also note that in this given situation she would be the one to persue it, as I am quite happy with where the relationship is (friends). Like I said, how you see girls as "friends" and how I see girls as "friends" is COMPLETELY different. I can't even explain it. You would have to experience my version to totally understand. Edited August 3, 2010 by dispatch3d
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Have you ever heard of the term rapid cognition? In the blink of an eye you already know you're attracted, yet you don't know how or why. Actions can increase or decrease the attraction no doubt, but attraction is a precursor not the result. Also I'm not suggesting you lay naked around your male friend's beds but.. If you did, I wonder just how platonic they would be? I understand that one can know if they are purely physical attracted to someone by looking at them, but to me, that's not enough of a reason to go out with somebody. I'm guessing to you it is. Hence the difference in worldview. I need a hint of rapport. Your obsession with this naked thing is creepy. I've no need to see under what circumstances my male friends would sleep with me; the point is that under the circumstances of our lives at present, we don't see any desire to date or sleep with each other but view each other as interesting, good people to be friends with. Why make it about sex? It's not. dispatch3d says: To your last point literally I thought of the situation, and my first reaction would be to say (not even think), "How the **** did this happen? Why are you naked in my bed?" Haha. . . I almost wrote that I hope my male friends would be freaked out if any girl was randomly naked in their beds!
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 A And here's the thing about pretty girls, honestly. . . a lot of men know this, and it's an old saying: "Tell a smart girl she's pretty. Tell a pretty girl she's smart." I don't much like lame PUA advice, or the men who say it, but this is the only true nugget I've ever heard. If you see a pretty girl, an approach that considers more than her looks is likely to be 10x more effective. lol pretty funny. I actually read a fair bit of PUA advice and share many similar thoughts to them. We usually agree on stuff too. Pretty sure you have a misconception of what they tell people are the do's and don'ts. To the ask her if she wants a coffee thing. I realize it seems super-trivial and nit picky because people regularly buy coffee's for each other. However, it actually ISNT. You're talking about where the draw the line with a random girl and how much you give her. Is a coffee okay? Is a beer okay? Is a dinner okay? Is a vacation okay? Is a car okay? Is a house okay? It's best to just draw the line above coffee and at nothing. She hasn't done anything to earn you buying her even a coffee yet. Or paying for a bus fair. Frankly if she asked for a coffee it would be a red-flag. You're reassassment of how I view things is quite fair with the power-play. I will honestly have to reasses how I view this (like actually for real view it). That being said, you would definitely want the power in this situation, since you need her to show up for a date. If she has the power it's going to be a LOT harder to get anything going.
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 If you're neither pretty or smart... How do guys approach you again zengirl? ?? your ego get hurt or something??
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 To the ask her if she wants a coffee thing. I realize it seems super-trivial and nit picky because people regularly buy coffee's for each other. However, it actually ISNT. You're talking about where the draw the line with a random girl and how much you give her. Is a coffee okay? Is a beer okay? Is a dinner okay? Is a vacation okay? Is a car okay? Is a house okay? It's best to just draw the line above coffee and at nothing. She hasn't done anything to earn you buying her even a coffee yet. Or paying for a bus fair. Frankly if she asked for a coffee it would be a red-flag. If she asked for it, yes, that'd be odd. My thought was the coffee offer could be a thank-you for watching his stuff. Not just for being an attractive female. But then, I buy people stuff all the time and currently live in a place where Westerners do this frequently because of just the way life is. . . it's hard to explain. It might be coloring my view of things. Though. . . I don't really think so. I tend to like generous people (I consider myself one) who don't worry so much about people "earning" small things like a coffee or a beer. I'm a big fan of random kindness to strangers in general. I'm not saying he needs to buy her a coffee, but your view of it strikes me as petty. You're reassassment of how I view things is quite fair with the power-play. I will honestly have to reasses how I view this (like actually for real view it). That being said, you would definitely want the power in this situation, since you need her to show up for a date. If she has the power it's going to be a LOT harder to get anything going. Why do you need random power to get a girl to show up for a date? You just need her to like you and think you're attractive and interesting (and be otherwise available herself). . . it's not really about a power play. It's about timing and compatibility.
meerkat stew Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 I definitely advise everyone be sociable and friendly, and that includes having friendly conversations with strangers. No one will disagree with this, but there is a difference between being "friendly" and "sociable" and being real "friends" as opposed to "acquaintances" or merely people one knows. The term "friend" is overused these days, and often in male/female relationships as a way to place artificial limits on a relationship, yet continue to use someone and get what one wants with "clear" conscience. What I don't see is how being friendly, in general, is bad. Or how being friendly, rather than aggressive in the briefest of beginnings, to actually assess a person, has a downside. Of course there's nothing bad about being friendly. However, what is bad is that you are using the term "aggressive" inaptly, as there is nothing whatsoever "aggressive" about a man (or woman) expressing their healthy, respectful sexual interest in another human being. There is no innate dichotomy between "friendship" and "sexual attraction," the concepts are not even polar, not even on the same scale of kinds of human interaction, but I find many women make the mistake of believing they are these days for whatever reason. There is nothing inherently "unfriendly" or hostile about seducing someone, asking them on a date, or even attempting to interest someone in having consensual sexual relations. It is not an attempt to "get something" or "take something" from you, but to involve you in a mutually satisfying experience. That this cultural misunderstanding is so entrenched currently, and runs so deep is the main reason I think asking out first is the way to go. It leaves no room for false friendly/sexual cultural/gender delineations. When a man asks a woman out, and gets to know her that way, his intentions are less subject to misinterpretation or unduly politicizing something which should be simple and direct. A brief conversation, or something, is required for me to ever go on a date with a guy, personally. If I feel like he's asking me out solely because of the way I look because he knows literally nothing else, he gets a "No." So, that's my biggest point about being friendly. As I said, I'm not saying hang out at her house and do her toenails. . . just talk to the girl before you even decide whether or not she's someone you'd like to ask out and see if she gives you any social cues to suggest she's interested. There is much difference between some initial "getting to know you" banter before asking out (which is an illusion anyway, people make dating decisions based on visceral factors for the most part, not reasoned, measured thought, regardless of what they fool themselves into believing about their selection process), and the type of lengthy involvement entailed in becoming truly acquainted. If a man has not interested you enough to go out with him in five minutes of conversation, he is not skilled in flirtation and seduction, that's his problem. But there is nothing preventing getting to know someone on a date as opposed to other means. Another mistaken perception I find in many women today is that agreeing to a simple date is some huge ordeal. It's just a date, not an invitation to marry. I weed these out, as they are usually inexperienced, boring companions anyway. The most socially aware and interesting women I know don't really think of a date as a big deal, certainly not any commitment on their part, again just a date. They understand that the guy's job is to approach them and ask them out, and theirs is to say yes or no. So simple a process, yet so encumbered by needless cultural baggasge and misconceptions.
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 If she asked for it, yes, that'd be odd. My thought was the coffee offer could be a thank-you for watching his stuff. Not just for being an attractive female. But then, I buy people stuff all the time and currently live in a place where Westerners do this frequently because of just the way life is. . . it's hard to explain. It might be coloring my view of things. Though. . . I don't really think so. I tend to like generous people (I consider myself one) who don't worry so much about people "earning" small things like a coffee or a beer. I'm a big fan of random kindness to strangers in general. I'm not saying he needs to buy her a coffee, but your view of it strikes me as petty. Why do you need random power to get a girl to show up for a date? You just need her to like you and think you're attractive and interesting (and be otherwise available herself). . . it's not really about a power play. It's about timing and compatibility. Trying to be concise here and failing. Basically he isn't at the internal game we are at. So buying her a coffee is putting yourself on dangerous territory. If he doesn't do it for a very specific reason then it's got I want ass attached to it. All of the scenarios you think up of when it's okay to buy a coffee likely WILL be. That's because you aren't doing it with a hidden agenda in mind. He's got a hidden agenda. To be fair, you're the one who interjected power here. I want him to talk to her with the goal of a 10 minute conversation (no date attached) to get him in the correct frame of mind for random hot girls. There will be other random hot girls. That said if there was a balance of power at the end of this 10 minute conversation, I'd want the balance to be in my favour or even. To me power=getting her attracted to me. I will think on what you said tho, as I could come off as petty. Especially since I'm probably quite different than a lot of guys hitting on girls (not a bad thing).
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 First off it's Your reassessment. Not you're, ya know.. sort of like you're an idiot. Second stop trying to get your points validated from zengirl. It's pretty obvious you really have no opinion but you're arguing for the sake of it to get zengirl's attention. Why don't you go take an english class then grow some balls and stop trying to please zengirl with your sissy attitude. haha alright man, you got me. My english is ****ty. I think zengirl really digs me hopefully she'll say yes to my internet date request? Kidding....
BS76 Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Where do I start? Well, today I decided to go to Barnes & Noble to do some studying. Crowded as usual, I find a table upstairs to my surprise. As I'm drinking my coffee and browsing the web, out of the corner of my eye I notice the most beautiful girl. Her face, somewhat luminous, had an alluring bronze tone to it. Her eyes were a piercingly sharp shade of brown. Eyebrows arched perfectly to help compliment her already seductive look. Voluptuous lips coupled with her gorgeous smile sent me to ecstasy, I just had to have more. Intrigued and definitely aware of her presence, I act as if I don't notice her. "Don't look at her, you can't let her get the upper hand, make her come to you." All of a sudden she gets close, my heart pulses faster and my mind begins to race. She walks over and asks, "Is this seat taken?" I cordially reply, "Oh, no." She sits down and I proceed to browse the web, we don't talk. After about ten or so minutes I open my book and begin to do my homework. I have my head phones on at this point and I'm not giving her much attention. She suddenly whips out her iPod and continues to do her work. We catch each other staring, but it's nothing drastic. Body language doesn't say much. She shifted forward a few times and put her hair up and then let it down if that makes a difference. After an hour or so of not having said one word to each other, I take my headphones off and ask her, "Excuse me, are you going to be here long? 'Yes', she replies. Do you mind watching my stuff while I go grab a drink? 'Sure.' I stand up and say, "Sorry, I never introduced myself, what's your name? 'Janet' she says as she smiles. I reach out my hand and introduce myself. She seemed fairly shy, apprehensive it seemed. I go downstairs, grab my drink and come back and take a seat. I say to her, "Thanks for watching my stuff. 'Sure.' She doesn't make eye contact with me. We sat together literally for about two hours and didn't say much. She seemed focused on her studying and I didn't want to interrupt. The majority of the time both of us had our headphones on, but as soon as I took mine off, hers were off a minute later. Time went by, and I noticed my queen was starting to pack. Frustrated that I haven't acted on my emotions, I continue to take notes and ignore her. Oxymoron, yes I know. It seems as if it took her forever to pack. She gets up, I roll my eyes up trying not to lift my head, and she walks away without look back. Sad that I had lost such a great opportunity to really get to know someone, I begin to beat myself down: "You never had a chance with her, what were you thinking. You're ugly, have no game and you're socially awkward." I go home only to find myself on 'LoveShack' complaining about an opportunity gone wry. As I reminisce on what could have been, I feel disappointed. The mystery of emotion never ceases to amaze me. Love, in itself is something that will never fade away, no matter who falls in and out of it. The concept changes, but remains a characteristic of life. Time may change many things but feelings and emotions are a part of that which remains constant. Hopefully I can express these feelings someday. Hey Mr Romance, reality check time. You didn't do a single thing to make this girl interested and were being polite to a stranger and her in return. Period. End of discussion. Also, stop putting women on such a high pedestal they pass out from lack of oxygen! You'll come off as needy, wussy, and desperate.
dispatch3d Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 That's the problem with people like zengirl, she puts ideas out there that it's wrong to express sexual interest to a girl. Not only is it wrong but it makes you a creep. The only way is to approach women with a beta attitude that doesn't get you anywhere. I don't really care what she thinks or does, but the fact that she's adversely affecting the OP in such a detrimental manner is discerning. Especially since he's so very impressionable about the whole dating idea due to lack of experience. You're essentially going to turn him into a beta chump who's going to be posting a bit down the road threads such as... "How do I get out of the friend zone?" "Why do they only want friendship?" "What does it mean when she says, I see you like a brother?" Ignore the fact that you were so turned on and flattered with the last guy who took charge and showed his interest in you. How he wasn't afraid to let his intentions be known, and make a move. I don't even know what to say. I didn't tell him to do any of that stuff+me and zengirl did disagree on several things so lumping us in together isn't right either. Actually I'm pretty sure what I told him to do was the OPPOSITE of what she said to do. At any rate I can't describe to the guy how to pickup chicks over the internet. I can tell him to go into it with the right frame of mind. Meaning just talk to her with the intention of talking to her for 10 minutes continuously. Don't have a goal in mind. Sure there's nothing wrong with telling a girl hey I like you lets go out sometime. I just think him trying to talk to her for 10 minutes without any clear goal is much better than what he is doing now (ie. nothing). I can't respond to your accusations as they aren't founded on anything I said.
zengirl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 JadedHeart, your obsession with who would and wouldn't ask me out is a bit strange. By the by, it's "English." It's a proper noun. I wouldn't say something except apparently you're going to go around correcting grammar. It's not like nobody else notices the errors. I see like 100 spelling and grammar errors here a day. Trying to be concise here and failing. Basically he isn't at the internal game we are at. So buying her a coffee is putting yourself on dangerous territory. If he doesn't do it for a very specific reason then it's got I want ass attached to it. All of the scenarios you think up of when it's okay to buy a coffee likely WILL be. That's because you aren't doing it with a hidden agenda in mind. He's got a hidden agenda. To be fair, you're the one who interjected power here. I want him to talk to her with the goal of a 10 minute conversation (no date attached) to get him in the correct frame of mind for random hot girls. There will be other random hot girls. That said if there was a balance of power at the end of this 10 minute conversation, I'd want the balance to be in my favour or even. To me power=getting her attracted to me. I will think on what you said tho, as I could come off as petty. Especially since I'm probably quite different than a lot of guys hitting on girls (not a bad thing). Thing is, I don't think you can "get" someone to be attracted to you. All you can do is be your truest and best self. Anything else is going to work out pretty poorly later, even if it works short-term. I think the correct frame of mind is just to be friendly and talk to people. Maybe he could improve his ability to read social cues. All this other stuff about internal game and such is what I find dangerous. My main suggestion is to become a friendly person who just talks to people. That would've solved the OP's main problem of inactivity that I saw in the first post. It may or may not have led to a date with the girl, but most of the factors to whether he could have ever had such a date are unknowable. I saw a power play in your initial struggle. . . I didn't interject it, so much as recognize it. I'm not saying you consciously think about power, but a lot of people who struggle for it in dating situations don't view it consciously. It's most of what causes dating frustrations.
dispatch3d Posted August 4, 2010 Posted August 4, 2010 JadedHeart, your obsession with who would and wouldn't ask me out is a bit strange. By the by, it's "English." It's a proper noun. I wouldn't say something except apparently you're going to go around correcting grammar. It's not like nobody else notices the errors. I see like 100 spelling and grammar errors here a day. Thing is, I don't think you can "get" someone to be attracted to you. All you can do is be your truest and best self. Anything else is going to work out pretty poorly later, even if it works short-term. I think the correct frame of mind is just to be friendly and talk to people. Maybe he could improve his ability to read social cues. All this other stuff about internal game and such is what I find dangerous. My main suggestion is to become a friendly person who just talks to people. That would've solved the OP's main problem of inactivity that I saw in the first post. It may or may not have led to a date with the girl, but most of the factors to whether he could have ever had such a date are unknowable. I saw a power play in your initial struggle. . . I didn't interject it, so much as recognize it. I'm not saying you consciously think about power, but a lot of people who struggle for it in dating situations don't view it consciously. It's most of what causes dating frustrations. Attraction can be genereted, yes. I'm certain it can be as I've done it and seen it done. This is the frame of mind he SHOULD be using. I set a goal for him which should also align his beliefs with this frame of mind. Suppose he starts randomly having 10 minute conversation with women regularly. Pretty soon he'll be asking some of them for numbers... You are actually suggesting an innergame change. Yeah the power thing is in subtext and in subconscious. I realize that.
DontWorryBHappy Posted August 4, 2010 Posted August 4, 2010 Ummm, I need an update! Did the OP ever talk to the girl? Fill us in ; )
Sabali Posted August 4, 2010 Posted August 4, 2010 Zengirl and Jaded, you two sound like a divorced couple fighting a custody battle in court over the kids. I will make a final judgment here: Zengirl, Tyson will follow your recommendations on weekdays. Jaded, Tyson will follow your recommendations every other weekend and every other holiday. Problem solved!
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