Was she flirting with me? If so, how should I have approached her?

[Tyson7]

Where do I start? Well, today I decided to go to Barnes & Noble to do some studying. Crowded as usual, I find a table upstairs to my surprise. As I'm drinking my coffee and browsing the web, out of the corner of my eye I notice the most beautiful girl. Her face, somewhat luminous, had an alluring bronze tone to it. Her eyes were a piercingly sharp shade of brown. Eyebrows arched perfectly to help compliment her already seductive look. Voluptuous lips coupled with her gorgeous smile sent me to ecstasy, I just had to have more. Intrigued and definitely aware of her presence, I act as if I don't notice her. "Don't look at her, you can't let her get the upper hand, make her come to you." All of a sudden she gets close, my heart pulses faster and my mind begins to race. She walks over and asks, "Is this seat taken?" I cordially reply, "Oh, no." She sits down and I proceed to browse the web, we don't talk. After about ten or so minutes I open my book and begin to do my homework. I have my head phones on at this point and I'm not giving her much attention. She suddenly whips out her iPod and continues to do her work. We catch each other staring, but it's nothing drastic. Body language doesn't say much. She shifted forward a few times and put her hair up and then let it down if that makes a difference.

 

After an hour or so of not having said one word to each other, I take my headphones off and ask her, "Excuse me, are you going to be here long? 'Yes', she replies. Do you mind watching my stuff while I go grab a drink? 'Sure.' I stand up and say, "Sorry, I never introduced myself, what's your name? 'Janet' she says as she smiles. I reach out my hand and introduce myself. She seemed fairly shy, apprehensive it seemed. I go downstairs, grab my drink and come back and take a seat. I say to her, "Thanks for watching my stuff. 'Sure.' She doesn't make eye contact with me. We sat together literally for about two hours and didn't say much. She seemed focused on her studying and I didn't want to interrupt. The majority of the time both of us had our headphones on, but as soon as I took mine off, hers were off a minute later.

 

Time went by, and I noticed my queen was starting to pack. Frustrated that I haven't acted on my emotions, I continue to take notes and ignore her. Oxymoron, yes I know. It seems as if it took her forever to pack. She gets up, I roll my eyes up trying not to lift my head, and she walks away without look back.

 

Sad that I had lost such a great opportunity to really get to know someone, I begin to beat myself down: "You never had a chance with her, what were you thinking. You're ugly, have no game and you're socially awkward." I go home only to find myself on 'LoveShack' complaining about an opportunity gone wry. As I reminisce on what could have been, I feel disappointed.

 

The mystery of emotion never ceases to amaze me. Love, in itself is something that will never fade away, no matter who falls in and out of it. The concept changes, but remains a characteristic of life. Time may change many things but feelings and emotions are a part of that which remains constant. Hopefully I can express these feelings someday.

[SpanksTheMonkey]

I would have brought her back a drink as well as a "thanks for watching my stuff" kinda thing. Just guess it doesn't matter if its the "right drink" its the thought that counts you will find with women 95% of the time unless there shallow gold diggers it really is the thought that gets our attention. Hopefully you will see her again and this time go for it you will never know until you ask dating isent a game as some would have you think games are for children.

[GordonDarkfoot]

Tyson7:

 

You didn't do anything wrong.

 

You were polite to a stranger.

 

She needed a place to sit down just like you did.

 

It doesn't sound like she was openly "flirting" with you, although you were there, I wasn't. I'm just going from your description.

 

Go back to that same place about the same time of day and if you see her around again then you'll be a familiar face. At that point strike up a conversation and that's when you offer to buy her a coffee or something.

 

She either says yes or no and you take it from there.

 

I think you're just second guessing yourself right now for no reason.

[Tyson7]

I would have brought her back a drink as well as a "thanks for watching my stuff" kinda thing. Just guess it doesn't matter if its the "right drink" its the thought that counts you will find with women 95% of the time unless there shallow gold diggers it really is the thought that gets our attention. Hopefully you will see her again and this time go for it you will never know until you ask dating isent a game as some would have you think games are for children.

 

That's exactly what I was going to do. I thought about asking her if I could get her a drink, but for some reason I second guessed myself about 30 times and concluded that I'd just come off weird.

 

The tension was so high, you could have sliced that air with a butter knife. It just seemed a bit awkward in a sense that although we didn't know each other, one of us seemed to be waiting for the other person to say something.

[GordonDarkfoot]

It just seemed a bit awkward in a sense that although we didn't know each other, one of us seemed to be waiting for the other person to say something.

 

 

BTDT like a trillion times.

 

Unfortunately, as the male, the burden is all on us to "make the first move" (if you want to call it that). You should NEVER expect the female to be the initiator because that is not what the societal expectation is (forget about feminism/equality, that's only useful for bashing men, not for dating them).

 

But I still don't think you should second guess yourself on this.

[zengirl]

That's exactly what I was going to do. I thought about asking her if I could get her a drink, but for some reason I second guessed myself about 30 times and concluded that I'd just come off weird.

 

The tension was so high, you could have sliced that air with a butter knife. It just seemed a bit awkward in a sense that although we didn't know each other, one of us seemed to be waiting for the other person to say something.

 

Man, most people need to get better at the middle game. That's what there is to learn from this. It doesn't have to be I'm-scared-to-say-anything or I-asked-her-out.

 

Bringing her back a coffee for watching your stuff (or even saying before you went, "Did you want anything?") and asking a few non-intrusive questions ("What are you studying?" and then some follow ups) would've given you much more info you'd need to decide whether or not she just wanted a place to sit and/or could have any interest in you at all. Her responses would've made it pretty clear---if she says several sentences or otherwise indicates conversation is of interest to her, you're building rapport. If not, you haven't done anything to embarrassed yourself. . . you've simply been friendly. That will bug some people, but they'll make their annoyance clear, and then you drop it. (Then, they feel silly for being annoyed at you for being friendly anyway. And really, it doesn't matter.)

 

You don't have to pick aloof or will-you-go-out-with-me. You could just talk to her like an interesting person who is sitting across from you.

[JadedHeart]

Man, most people need to get better at the middle game. That's what there is to learn from this. It doesn't have to be I'm-scared-to-say-anything or I-asked-her-out.

 

Bringing her back a coffee for watching your stuff (or even saying before you went, "Did you want anything?") and asking a few non-intrusive questions ("What are you studying?" and then some follow ups) would've given you much more info you'd need to decide whether or not she just wanted a place to sit and/or could have any interest in you at all. Her responses would've made it pretty clear---if she says several sentences or otherwise indicates conversation is of interest to her, you're building rapport. If not, you haven't done anything to embarrassed yourself. . . you've simply been friendly. That will bug some people, but they'll make their annoyance clear, and then you drop it. (Then, they feel silly for being annoyed at you for being friendly anyway. And really, it doesn't matter.)

 

You don't have to pick aloof or will-you-go-out-with-me. You could just talk to her like an interesting person who is sitting across from you.

 

Good intentions, bad results. OP be a fvking man, grow some balls and start talking to her. That's all there is to it, nothing more nothing less.

 

If you're going to talk to her like an interesting person who is sitting across from you, that's going to get you in the friend zone buddy. Don't ask her boring crap like what are you studying.

 

Be fun, ask her what she's listening to. Then you can have some banter over music and go from there. Maybe she really likes a band and they're in town for a concert. You could then ask her if she wanted to get together and check them out. The possibilities are infinite dude! When you catch her starring, don't look away!

 

Give her a glimpse of your enigmatic gaze, she'll be captivated!

*okay didn't mean to tease you there *

 

You never know, but for goodness sakes don't ask her what she's studying. She'll say a one word retort like Math. *Crickets chirping and awkward silence* I'm sure Zengirl had good intentions, but results are what we're looking for here.

 

Tyson7:

 

You didn't do anything wrong.

 

 

You're right, he just didn't do anything. Which is exponentially worse than doing something wrong in this case.

 

You've gotta flirt, eye contact, subtle kino (light touching). Stop being so beta, women love alpha males. I'm not talking about becoming a Neanderthal caveman. Alpha means making the first move, initiate the conversation. Be confident, be charming. Being shy, timid and introverted is something you can change. I used to be the exact same way.

 

You don't bring her back a coffee, that makes you look desperate and weak. You say hey, let's take a study break and get some coffee at the starbucks right next door. At this point you help her out of her chair, touch the brow of her back and start initiating kino. This will let her know you're not some chump that wants to be just friends.

 

Attract her to you, masculinity is attractive. Lead her over there, playfully tease her. Walk past the how to meet people section and say I saw you reading this before you came up to me.

Then plop down for some coffee. Ask her where she's from? Genuine questions that you're really interested in her as a person.

 

Mainly talk about her, or let her do the talking. Pause before you speak, paraphrase and repeat what she says to know you're paying attention.

 

"Time went by, and I noticed my queen was starting to pack."

 

Don't put women on a pedestal, she's a person, you're a person.

 

I like your writing style, it's very eloquent. I had a similar style which I abandoned because talking like Hamlet won't get you a girlfriend. I used to write love poems in this manner, unless she's some ugly librarian chick she's not going to find this attractive. Maybe if you're married and have been dating for a long time then yes, it may be considered romantic.

 

I would recommend using more prose as opposed to rhetoric and fluff. It's much more effective at communicating interpersonally.

 

Here's a quote you'll find to be truthful.

 

"When love is in excess it brings a man no honor nor worthiness."

Euripides, Medea, 431 B.C.

Greek tragic dramatist (484 BC - 406 BC)

 

Okay so think about that bro, you're giving too much love. Even the Ancient Greeks knew about this!! I'm not even going to begin on Ben Franklin either!

 

I'm giving you tough love here because you need it, bad. Don't listen to the incredulously horrible aforementioned advice one post above.

 

It's okay this is just one opportunity that passed by. There will be others in the future. Don't beat yourself up too bad, because feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to get ***** done.

 

You think you're ugly? start working out and groom yourself. Get a hair cut, go shopping for new clothes, buy some accessories like a watch.

 

Socially awkward? Go forth and seek out knowledge in order to increase your social intelligence. Start reading books on body language, theories on social proofs, dynamics, these are all skills anyone can acquire.

 

You have no game? Go practice, get experience. Everyone has to start somewhere!

 

This goes back to my thread on why men don't like fat chicks. They can either sit there and b!tch, or they can get off their butts to lose that flub.

 

You can either sit here and tell us your, "woes," or you can be a man, grow some fkn balls and do what you gotta do.

 

People like zengirl are the very reason why my friend stayed fat. If you seek the solace of this fiend, you too, shall be forever trapped in the dregs of social ineptitude. Wallowing in the lower echelons of love, oh how I pity thee!

 

Look, I'm going to reiterate this for you.

 

Quit being a b!tch and just do it. It's better you regret doing something than not.

 

Take care let me know how it turns out.

Edited July 31, 2010 by JadedHeart

[zengirl]

If you're going to talk to her like an interesting person who is sitting across from you, that's going to get you in the friend zone buddy. Don't ask her boring crap like what are you studying.

 

Be fun, ask her what she's listening to. Then you can have some banter over music and go from there. Maybe she really likes a band and they're in town for a concert. You could then ask her if she wanted to get together and check them out. The possibilities are infinite dude! When you catch her starring, don't look away!

 

Well, my advice doesn't suggest he not ask her what she's listening to. The question was a sample. (He could ask her both questions! Egads.) I'd be fine with either of those questions, and they still fall under friendly, which was my point. He's over-intimidating himself by thinking he either has to stay silent or ask her out. If a girl wants you to flirt with her, and you talk to her, she is going to give you the social cues to invite you to flirt with her!

 

The "friendzone" is largely a myth in terms of a specific action in approaching a woman landing you there. You get put there when you aren't attractive, and that has more to do with your looks and your pheromones than anything else (and then a bit with your general demeanor, yes, but there's nothing given here that suggests the OP should change his general demeanor to attract women). Or when a woman has another option that she's focused on but she still finds you friend-worthy and interesting.

 

Men make up all these reasons they were friendzoned because they don't want to admit the ladies just didn't find them attractive.

 

 

You never know, but for goodness sakes don't ask her what she's studying. She'll say a one word retort like Math. *Crickets chirping and awkward silence* I'm sure Zengirl had good intentions, but results are what we're looking for her.

 

You've gotta flirt, eye contact, subtle kino (light touching). Stop being so beta, women love alpha males.

 

That's how a person should act on a date maybe. Not with a stranger. I've not met any girl who would want a guy, in a coffee shop, to "lightly touch" her. It's one thing if you're flirting in a bar (even then you should get some sort of social cue that suggests she finds you attractive, or else it's still creepy!). It's creepy in the context of a Barnes and Nobles. If she doesn't like him or find him attractive, it might actively upset her.

 

Most of the guys I've met out and about (not through friends, groups, etc) in situations like this that have gone onto an actual date have been because they treated me like an interesting person and not a piece of meat. That's where my advice comes from.

 

The OP can take it or leave it, but that's the female perspective I give. I hate men who come on too strong. (Remember that list we started back in the other thread you referenced? That would definitely be on the list.)

[JadedHeart]

[quote=

If she doesn't like him or find him attractive, it might actively upset her.

 

So if she doesn't find him attractive then why did she sit next to him? She practically gravitated towards him.

 

What's the definition of attraction? Negative and positive ions attract each other? Does that mean they somehow find themselves right next to each other or repel?

 

Any girl that comes up and sits next to me in obviously attracted in a setting like this. Don't kid yourself, here comes the bad advice again.

 

[quote name= If a girl wants you to flirt with her, and you talk to her, she is going to give you the social cues to invite you to flirt with her!

[/quote]

 

So I guess the fact that she sat right next to him while they both caught each starring wasn't a social cue that she wanted him to flirt/talk with her? I don't know who's more dense, you or the OP (no offense bro)

 

You're practically telling him to be self conscious and have thoughts such as, if she doesn't like me or find me attractive I might actively upset her if I try anything. Now he might be too scared to try with the next girl.

 

Yes it's creepy if some guy just starts lightly touching you, but she was evidently attracted to the OP, agree? Or is your definition of attraction meaning she would have sat across the room?

 

About the friend zone... you'll get there only because she doesn't deem you sexually attractive. Relatively yes I agree looks and physical appearance do play a large factor but... Absolutely, it all comes down whether she wants to jump into bed with you or not.

 

You think women sleep with Jack Nicholson because of his looks?

 

From your argument I can safely assume you only meant physical attraction.

 

So what happened to these poor souls that went on a date with you? They never escalated any intimacy did they? Did you get the impression that they just weren't interested because all they did was sit there and talk to you like your girl friend? Never once exuded any romantic interest? Gave off zero sexual energy?

 

Ever had a man you thought was handsome and on a first date, just grab you by the waist, pull you by his side and walk you the restaurant? You're telling me all guys who do this are creepy? If you're, "attracted," to him then you'd eat that up like candy.

 

What about when women gently touch the forearm of a man? Do you oppose this behavior as well?

 

Get real Zengirl, you have no idea what you're talking about. How many guys have you friend zoned all because of this poison you spew, like the fiend you are.

 

Did I not say make your romantic interest known by having a little kino, playful teasing, then build comfort by having genuine conversations pertaining to her? How is that coming on too strong?

 

If you do the latter first, she'll think of you as her girl friend. Do the former now she knows that you're not some chump that'll listen to emotional woes.

 

Regardless OP do what you want, I hope the best.

 

P.S. Why do you say that list "we" made? Are you trying to make us into one entity? Perhaps this is your way of coming on to me? Dream on girly.

 

This is the perfect example of your ambiguous term attraction. You may not like me but you're definitely attracted to me since you seem to respond so quickly to all my posts. Try to ease off a bit, that way you won't look so needy.

Edited July 31, 2010 by JadedHeart

[zengirl]

So if she doesn't find him attractive then why did she sit next to him? She practically gravitated towards him.

 

We don't know why she sat next to him. (For one thing, I'm not clear on whether or not there were empty tables. If there were no empty tables, yes, it was a rather good sign her sitting there.) We definitely don't know enough to say she gravitated towards him. It's entirely possible she thought he was cute. It's also entirely possible she just thought that was the best available space to sit because he looked like a nice enough guy, there was no fully open space, and she thought it'd be a good place to do her work. We have no way of knowing her thoughts from the description given because there was so little interaction. I suggested interaction because it allows a person to assess the other.

 

What's the definition of attraction? Negative and positive ions attract each other? Does that mean they somehow find themselves right next to each other or repel?

 

I'm not going to get into random science with you. You knew what I meant: Physical attraction.

 

Any girl that comes up and sits next to me in obviously attracted in a setting like this. Don't kid yourself, here comes the bad advice again.

 

I hate guys who think like that. I've sat down next to some guys I thought were cute, but I've also struck up conversations with guys I would never ever date. Don't assume that every girl who comes near you is dying to go out with you.

 

You're practically telling him to be self conscious and have thoughts such as, if she doesn't like me or find me attractive I might actively upset her if I try anything. Now he might be too scared to try with the next girl.

 

Yes it's creepy if some guy just starts lightly touching you, but she was evidently attracted to the OP, agree? Or is your definition of attraction meaning she would have sat across the room?

 

My original advice was to feel out the situation. I'm not saying he shouldn't talk to her! I'm suggesting he be friendly and try to build a rapport. I am suggesting he not take your somewhat crazy advice and start imposing upon her personal space without some serious social cues. Friendly before flirting loses you absolutely nothing.

 

My definition of physical attraction is someone with romantic or sexual intentions. We have no idea of this girl's intentions. If I sat down next to a guy and he took that as a social cue to pull out my chair for me or lightly touch my shoulder or some such, especially without building rapport that was clearly returned (having some sort of decent conversation with me would be the first step), I would be creeped out, yes.

 

So what happened to these poor souls that went on a date with you? They never escalated any intimacy did they? Did you get the impression that they just weren't interested because all they did was sit there and talk to you like your girl friend? Never once exuded any romantic interest? Gave off zero sexual energy?

 

This guy isn't on a date with her. I would never say that flirting with a girl on a date was creepy. If you've planned a date, there is clearly some kind of social signal given to invite flirting, which should be reciprocated and develop naturally into some kind of affection.

 

At this phase: He needs to get her number and get a date with her. That's all he wants now. He can worry about the date on the date. First, he wants to seem friendly, likable, and attractive. He needs to know something about her before he starts exuding sexual energy. (This is potentially different, of course, if you're in a setting where there is alcohol. But even then, it really depends on what you're going for, and friendly rarely gets a guy a "No" he wouldn't get anyway.)

 

Ever had a man you thought was handsome and on a first date, just grab you by the waist, pull you by his side and walk you the restaurant? You're telling me all guys who do this are creepy? If you're, "attracted," to him then you'd eat that up like candy.

 

Yeah, if I'd just met him, I'd think that was creepy. Even if he was the most handsome man in the world. At the end of a very good date, that kind of physicality might be wanted (had the rapport developed) and lovely, but too much physicality too early definitely turns a girl off. At least the gals I know. Again, you're going for this crazy "All or nothing" attitude. It's not like I'm saying you have to pretend to be castrated and go shoe-shopping or something. . . just work on building a rapport where your advances are clearly invited at the level you're giving out.

 

What about when women gently touch the forearm of a man? Do you oppose this behavior as well?

 

I don't go about it in a situation like the one the OP described. A fellow and I would have to be flirting first.

 

Get real Zengirl, you have no idea what you're talking about. How many guys have you friend zoned all because of this poison you spew, like the fiend you are.

 

I've never "friend zoned" a guy as in thought he was attractive but nothing happened or things went to slowly so he wound up in some mythical zone men have developed to make themselves feel better.

 

I have male friends. There are a few fellows in my "circle of friends" who are attracted to me (or have said as much) but their attraction hasn't been reciprocated. A few of them are types that certainly come on strong. All of them are guys that I find unattractive, physically, or know to be players.

 

Did I not say make your romantic interest known by having a little kino, playful teasing, then build comfort by having genuine conversations pertaining to her? How is that coming on too strong?

 

If you do the latter first, she'll think of you as her girl friend. Do the former now she knows that you're not some chump that'll listen to emotional woes.

 

Well, that's backwards. FIRST have a conversation, before you get into a girls' personal space. If she wants to flirt with you, she'll give you some signals. Nobody expects a stranger of either gender to "listen to their emotional woes." I'm not saying the fellow should paint her toenails and listen to her boy troubles. I'm saying that being a friendly person and starting up a conversation is the way to get the introduction to flirting, her number, and a date. . . if she finds him attractive, which he can only find out by talking to her. (Or wildly inappropriately invading her space and getting an "Ew" face.)

 

Girls do not reject guys because they find it unmanly they were friendly and had a conversation. The Friend Zone is a myth.

[JadedHeart]

 

I'm not going to get into random science with you. You knew what I meant: Physical attraction.

 

 

Regardless of the context, the definition remains the same. I already stated I could safely assume you meant physical attraction. That's why you have a picture of Jack Nicholson as your wall paper right?

 

I don't know about you but if a girl doesn't want to go out with me that's completely fine. But if she comes near my proximity and I find her attractive and she doesn't like it... take a hike, I was here first you don't have to be around me.

 

Physical attraction and romantic/sexual attraction are two separate entities.

Sexual attraction is relative to physical attraction. Can physical attraction be the result of sexual attraction?

 

It amuses me that you can't comprehend the word attraction.

 

At this phase: He needs to get her number and get a date with her.

 

Why the hell would she give her his number, he didn't say or do anything. Are you getting the number to go on a date or getting it so she can talk to you like another girl friend? There's a big difference...

 

If it's not implied you have romantic interests, regardless of what she feels, he's going to call that number and only have her say something like.. I'm bringing a friend or two okay? We're going as just friends alright? etc...

 

I've never "friend zoned" a guy as in thought he was attractive but nothing happened or things went to slowly so he wound up in some mythical zone men have developed to make themselves feel better.

 

I have male friends. There are a few fellows in my "circle of friends" who are attracted to me (or have said as much) but their attraction hasn't been reciprocated. A few of them are types that certainly come on strong. All of them are guys that I find unattractive, physically, or know to be players.

 

Why do you think nothing ever happened or things went so slowly? It's because of the social conditioning that men shouldn't act like men! You're telling him not to induce any sort of light touching, playful teasing, don't make a move. That is the result, they start to think of themselves as cavemen then repress all of their romantic/sexual energy. All thanks to people like you. See how detrimental the advice is you're giving the OP?

 

You said you have male friends in your clique. Their attraction hasn't been reciprocated. So why are these guys still around? You think it's because they like having long deep conversations with you? Go lay butt nekked on a bed, would any of your guy friends ever say I don't want to ruin the friendship we shouldn't.

 

Guess what zengirl... you've effectively put these men into the friend zone. They want to have intimate relations yet with you! You're keeping them at bay by saying you're nothing more than friends.

 

You make it seem like it's an honor to be in the so called male fabricated friend zone. It's the doom pit of despair to many, it actually makes men feel worse... not better.

 

So do you want the OP to be in the same situation as your average frustrated chump friends that stick around wasting their time with you?

 

It's certainly okay you're not attracted, physically, to them. But why should they waste their time with you now? They don't gain anything from being your friend. They could be utilizing that time with girls that they actually have potential for.

 

The advice you're giving the OP is a one way ticket to the friend zone.

 

So I'll ask again, in your circle of friends have you banished to no man's land?

[Mike B.]

Jaded and zen, you both make good points. At first when jaded started with the whole kino and alpha thing I was like " oh, boy, here comes another follower of some salesman capitalizing off mens' insecurities" and it is written all over his posts but he does make some very valid points.

 

Zen, I agree withba lot of you said as well. How can you both be right in a heated discussion? Well, certain men have to pay more attention to one of you while some will have to pay more attention to the other. For instance, the OP really needs to pay attention to Jaded's Hamlet comment while most should avoid touching a stranger they meet in a studious coffee shop.

 

 

Anyway OP, you have to speak to a woman that attracts you when you out and about immediately. If you take one second to think about it, you will come off as awkward and wind up making posts like

The OP you made. Force yourself to talk immediately and learn to speak to women on your feet. If you are not experienced with this, you will surely sound silly occasionally but this wil become farc less with experience. Your "queen" likely smelled your fear and saw it as "safe" to sit by you.

 

By the way, Zen, you just have to abandon the whole "friend zone doesn't exist" stand. That's like saying outter space doesn't exist. Men know the friend zone too well. We know it like sports.

[Serenitynow]

I act as if I don't notice her. "Don't look at her, you can't let her get the upper hand, make her come to you."

 

 

Frustrated that I haven't acted on my emotions, I continue to take notes and ignore her. Oxymoron, yes I know.

 

Hows that game playing working out for you now ?

 

 

.

[JadedHeart]

Jaded and zen, you both make good points. At first when jaded started with the whole kino and alpha thing I was like " oh, boy, here comes another follower of some salesman capitalizing off mens' insecurities" and it is written all over his posts but he does make some very valid points.

 

Zen, I agree withba lot of you said as well. How can you both be right in a heated discussion? Well, certain men have to pay more attention to one of you while some will have to pay more attention to the other. For instance, the OP really needs to pay attention to Jaded's Hamlet comment while most should avoid touching a stranger they meet in a studious coffee shop.

 

 

Anyway OP, you have to speak to a woman that attracts you when you out and about immediately. If you take one second to think about it, you will come off as awkward and wind up making posts like

The OP you made. Force yourself to talk immediately and learn to speak to women on your feet. If you are not experienced with this, you will surely sound silly occasionally but this wil become farc less with experience. Your "queen" likely smelled your fear and saw it as "safe" to sit by you.

 

By the way, Zen, you just have to abandon the whole "friend zone doesn't exist" stand. That's like saying outter space doesn't exist. Men know the friend zone too well. We know it like sports.

 

I appreciate your thought on this matter. You may not necessarily agree with the whole alpha and kino thing but... I guarantee you he'll never have to deal with the just friends line this way. It's an all or nothing, either you're her romantic interest or you're not.

 

I fear once he gets trapped in the friend zone he'll wait there for eternity.

Let your romantic interests be known, if she doesn't reciprocate move on it's okay. If she does then great, this way there is no gray area.

 

Mike B, if you don't subscribe to the notion of being alpha and utilizing kino in a non creepy manner of course..

 

Not making fun but a serious question, are you in any friend zone right now?

 

I sho ain't, that's fo' damn sho.

 

Also women find insecurities, lack of confidence and fear repulsive. She didn't sit next to him because he looked like a safe bet. People go to things they are attracted to, not repulsed.

Edited July 31, 2010 by JadedHeart

[zengirl]

By the way, Zen, you just have to abandon the whole "friend zone doesn't exist" stand. That's like saying outter space doesn't exist. Men know the friend zone too well. We know it like sports.

My assertion is mostly about what gets you there. Nobody gets put into a "Friend Zone" because they didn't act fast enough. That's the myth. They get put there because the girl doesn't want to go out with them---either physical attraction or her own circumstances (she's hung up on another guy, etc).

 

I'm not saying fellows don't hang around girls trying to be their friend to get to them, but that's them being daft. It's not like something you could've done would've saved you from it except realizing the girl was never going to be into you/has other priorities.

 

It's similar to the female myth of a guy really wanting to be with them but just can't "right now."

 

Regardless of the context, the definition remains the same. I already stated I could safely assume you meant physical attraction. That's why you have a picture of Jack Nicholson as your wall paper right?

 

Dude. I don't dig Jack Nicholson, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up. I wasn't arguing with you about "conventionally" versus "unconventionally" handsome. Everybody likes their own things. That's not the point of my bringing up the role attraction plays in things.

 

(I also don't have a picture of any celebrity as my wallpaper. It's actually an awesome picture I took at the Great Wall of China, but whatever.)

 

I don't know about you but if a girl doesn't want to go out with me that's completely fine. But if she comes near my proximity and I find her attractive and she doesn't like it... take a hike, I was here first you don't have to be around me.

Wow, lovely attitude. Any attractive woman in your proximity should either vacate the premises or reciprocate your attraction immediately. Yes, that would definitely go on that list I was making back in the other thread for potentially unattractive things men could do.

 

Even if I did find a fellow attractive, if he belied any bit of that attitude, I'd think he was a controlling, egoistic jerk.

 

Physical attraction and romantic/sexual attraction are two separate entities. Sexual attraction is relative to physical attraction. Can physical attraction be the result of sexual attraction?

You're talking about classical beauty versus physical attraction. I've never wanted to sleep with a man I didn't find attractive. Whether he was classically beautiful (to others or society in general) is perhaps a different matter, but you going on about that, as though you can "trick" attraction by acting like a territorial, aggressive jerk, is just silly. That's a male myth.

 

It amuses me that you can't comprehend the word attraction.

I comprehend many definitions of the word attraction, including a few that apply.

 

Why the hell would she give her his number, he didn't say or do anything.

Yes, as I pointed out in my original post. He couldn't get up the nerve to "make a move" perse, but you don't have to go from 0 to 60 was my point.

 

Are you getting the number to go on a date or getting it so she can talk to you like another girl friend? There's a big difference...

I don't know what kind of issues you have. Generally, if you talk to a woman, and then ask for her number so you can take her out, she knows where you're going. That doesn't mean she won't decide she doesn't want to go out with you. It doesn't mean she won't go out with you and then realize she's just not that into you and doesn't want to talk to you. It doesn't mean she won't go out with you even though she's hung up on somebody else and thus never going to consider you seriously. A million things could happen. You might even [gasp] make a woman who's a friend when you realize you don't really want to date her either.

 

But there's no correlation between starting a friendly conversation with a woman and her dropping you in some mythical "zone" where you'd never be date-worthy. If she thinks you're attractive, you've just made the first steps towards getting a date. If she doesn't think you're attractive, nothing you did was going to change her mind.

 

If it's not implied you have romantic interests, regardless of what she feels, he's going to call that number and only have her say something like.. I'm bringing a friend or two okay? We're going as just friends alright? etc...

If she says that, then she's not into you. If you ask her on a date and she gives any sort of hesitation or says, "Just as friends," then you know something is up; either: (a) She doesn't find you attractive, (b) She is into someone else/has another situation and isn't considering dating anyone right now, or © She's unsure of her attraction to you.

 

In my book, © is where the Friend Zone Myth finds whatever small, shiny grain of truth it clings to. Really, there was no action that could've caused © to turn into attraction, but there might be a set of circumstances in which she'll go on a date with you, if she has other issues (needs to multi-date and fill her calendar, etc). In the case of building a relationship, © is bad news. If she does date you after ©, it's never going to go well. . . unless other factors have changed.

 

Why do you think nothing ever happened or things went so slowly? It's because of the social conditioning that men shouldn't act like men! You're telling him not to induce any sort of light touching, playful teasing, don't make a move. That is the result, they start to think of themselves as cavemen then repress all of their romantic/sexual energy. All thanks to people like you. See how detrimental the advice is you're giving the OP?

This is nonsensical. Actually, it makes me laugh to read it.

 

You said you have male friends in your clique. Their attraction hasn't been reciprocated. So why are these guys still around? You think it's because they like having long deep conversations with you? Go lay butt nekked on a bed, would any of your guy friends ever say I don't want to ruin the friendship we shouldn't.

I have sincere male friends as well who don't want to sleep with me anymore than I want to sleep with them. I have some male friends that, sure, would jump at the chance to sleep with me; they are peripheral, as I said in the earlier example. It's because it's a clique, and we are all friends together. Haven't you ever had a group of friends? A co-ed group of friends? Most people have these days.

 

We don't have long, deep conversations about our feelings (well, sometimes we have long, deep conversations about other things like Marxism or something from a Vonnegut novel, but usually we're drunk). We go bowling or hiking or play Wii or something. Actually, I don't sit around having long conversations about my feelings with my female friends usually.

 

Guess what zengirl... you've effectively put these men into the friend zone. They want to have intimate relations yet with you! You're keeping them at bay by saying you're nothing more than friends.

 

You make it seem like it's an honor to be in the so called male fabricated friend zone. It's the doom pit of despair to many, it actually makes men feel worse... not better.

 

It's certainly okay you're not attracted, physically, to them. But why should they waste their time with you now? They don't gain anything from being your friend. They could be utilizing that time with girls that they actually have potential for.

The men I was speaking of are in a clique, as you put it: a group of friends. They are not close friends of me personally. They are not hanging around because of me (or, if they are, they're daft). We don't have 1 on 1 time. Read more carefully to what I said above. I don't spend time 1 on 1 with a fellow unless (a) We're dating, or (b) We're close, truly platonic friends (i.e. he doesn't want to date me, and I don't want to date him).

 

What, in your world, men and women should all have their separate groups and never meet except to sleep together? That's nonsense. I should tell these men that they aren't allowed to be part of our group because they are attracted to me? That seems pretty mean. Or I should stop hanging out with my friends because a few fellows decided I was attractive and how dare I be in their space, attractive, and not attracted to them? Pah. So silly.

 

At any rate, this has little to do with the OP's dilemma, which is that he needs to find a way for more interaction. I would also caution that he needs appropriate interaction and to slowly build to his goal---asking the girl out. That doesn't mean being indirect or pussy-footing about going to get manicures with her, but having a conversation doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage.

 

Edited July 31, 2010 by zengirl

[Sabali]

Unintentional.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Sabali

[Tyson7]

@Jaded

 

Thanks for the reply bro. Although I may come off as extremely socially awkward, I'm not believe it or not. I'd like to think I'm a handsome young 21 year old guy. I was voted prince in high school and I currently play football for my college. I came on here to express my emotions simply because I let an opportunity pass me by. Can I hook up with girls, sure, not a problem. I've never had a girlfriend, EVER. I'm that guy that pushes his friends to stay single so we can go out and bang everything in sight. That being said, my one-on-one game is terrible! It's easy to approach a girl at a club, but extremely hard for me to do the same at a coffee shop, I just can't do it. I play mind games, and maybe I just kicked myself with this one. I know I'm supposed to be the one to engage the conversation (we're supposed to be alpha males right?), but I usually let the female do it (which I don't like because I know the man is supposed to do the dirty work). So I'm kind of at a lose/lose situation.

 

By beautiful, I mean beautiful. Definitely not your typical nice body cute face kinda girl who catches your attention. She literally had me shaking from nervousness, (which I hid by giggling nonetheless lmao). So I'll definitely take your advice and just engage in conversation next time. I'm just too afraid of rejection because it's a kick to my ego, but I know that if I ever want to get somewhere iIm going to have to kick that aside and just go for the kill.

[Tyson7]

Hows that game playing working out for you now ?

 

 

.

 

Not so great now. Generally it works, but I usually just attract a one night stand, nothing more. I guess its about quality and not quantity in this case. I'm going to need to stop over thinking situations and just play it off casually.

 

Thanks to everyone who's replied btw...

 

I'd still like to here more from the female members if possible though.

[Sabali]

Sad that I had lost such a great opportunity to really get to know someone, I begin to beat myself down: "You never had a chance with her, what were you thinking. You're ugly, have no game and you're socially awkward."

 

If you believe that you are handsome why would you say something like the above to yourself?

 

I am going to have to agree with some of the recommendations Jaded gave you since you seem to be on the extreme side of awkwardness around women. You have to take the bull by the horn on this one from now on. Two or three hours to be sitting across from a woman you are attracted to and say nothing is a long time.

 

Also, I would have to agree that you have to stop writing like you play the clarinet. It just works against things. You're still fairly young but I would be aggressive with improving your social skills with approaching women now.

 

No need to beat yourself up. Forgive yourself.

[JadedHeart]

 

In my book, © is where the Friend Zone Myth finds whatever small, shiny grain of truth it clings to. Really, there was no action that could've caused © to turn into attraction, but there might be a set of circumstances in which she'll go on a date with you, if she has other issues (needs to multi-date and fill her calendar, etc). In the case of building a relationship, © is bad news. If she does date you after ©, it's never going to go well. . . unless other factors have changed.

 

This is nonsensical. Actually, it makes me laugh to read it.

 

 

There is no action that puts you in the friend zone? What about being needy and clingy?

 

How about inaction? Those guys you said nothing ever materialized because things went too slow? How do you mean by that? I think it's because they never made a move.

 

I too have a few females friends, I don't want to have sex with them though. I don't find them physically attractive, that's why I can be their friends.

 

I'm not saying you should take your male clique to take a hike, they should leave and not waste their time. If you tell them you're not interested and they stick around that's their problem.

 

Have you seen Jack Nicholson? He's a stud, drop dead sexy. You're right, I have no idea why I ever bothered to use him as an example that physical attraction doesn't matter, only sexual attraction.

 

But there's no correlation between starting a friendly conversation with a woman and her dropping you in some mythical "zone" where you'd never be date-worthy. If she thinks you're attractive, you've just made the first steps towards getting a date. If she doesn't think you're attractive, nothing you did was going to change her mind.

 

If she thinks you're attractive, she'll go on a date with you. No getting towards a date. If she doesn't find you attractive, you find out then and there so you don't waste any time with her.

 

I believe this is the premise of our disagreement.

 

We don't have long, deep conversations about our feelings (well, sometimes we have long, deep conversations about other things like Marxism or something from a Vonnegut novel, but usually we're drunk).

 

Wow, you sound like such a fun type of gal! Man I really wish I could meet you in person and have interesting conversations like that.

 

Marxism eh? Did you get back in touch with your communistic roots in China where you also took those pictures of the Great Wall?

 

Okay I understand now... You're a communist and a lesbian. If I had known that I would've never argued with you in the first place! Silly me. :bunny:

 

To the OP if you ever read our debate then I'm sure by now you're able to assess your situation more clearly now. Best of luck dude.

[Tyson7]

If you believe that you are handsome why would you say something like the above to yourself?

 

 

I beat myself down a lot. It's just something I've taken from playing sports through out the years. You lose, you beat yourself down and train harder to win next time. I'm not here to argue and say I'm Brad Pitt, becasue I'm not. Am I fat? No. I'm not short, and I'm definitely well groomed. I'm handsome enough to where I know I can get laid if I'd like. It's just that I've been single for so many years, so to actually have feelings like this from a complete stranger caught me completely off guard to the point where I just didn't know what to do.

[Sabali]

I beat myself down a lot. It's just something I've taken from playing sports through out the years. You lose, you beat yourself down and train harder to win next time. I'm not here to argue and say I'm Brad Pitt, becasue I'm not. Am I fat? No. I'm not short, and I'm definitely well groomed. I'm handsome enough to where I know I can get laid if I'd like. It's just that I've been single for so many years, so to actually have feelings like this from a complete stranger caught me completely off guard to the point where I just didn't know what to do.

 

 

I see. You will get many more chances like this. The next woman that sits across from you will be even more appealing.

[zengirl]

There is no action that puts you in the friend zone? What about being needy and clingy?

 

Well, for me, that puts you in the not-in-my-life-hopefully zone, but I'm not all women. I get what you're saying in terms of that destroying a potential connection, but 2 things:

 

1.) That's not the "Friend Zone" myth. That's a different issue related to women and men. We'll get into this part later.

1.a) I in no way suggest anyone be needy and clingy as that suggests issues they need to deal with inside themselves.

 

2.) How is treating someone like a person and being friendly in a first meeting needy and clingy? To me, it's a greater sign of someone being needy and clingy if they feel the need to go all alpha male with your "kino" suggestions and such.

 

Now, let's get back to #1 for a minute: The Friend Zone myth is the idea that if a guy had just "acted faster" or done some alphamale crap that the girl would've been into him. This is wrong. That said, there are, of course, behaviors in any gender (and in each individual relationship) that can halt a relationship. Needy and clingy is not a male behavior that's unattractive; it's a human behavior that's unattractive, mostly because it is symptomatic of social, emotional, and spiritual bad health. I always suggest everyone get themselves into good health. There's no need to be needy and clingy.

 

How about inaction? Those guys you said nothing ever materialized because things went too slow? How do you mean by that? I think it's because they never made a move.

 

I suggested action. Of courseyou can't do nothing and expect to get someone to go out with you. I think your action is nonsensical, as are your reasons for it.

 

I don't know about your too slow comment. Generally speaking, many of my relationships have started off what some people might consider "slow." If they're slow in terms of not being able to see each other. . . well, that, of course, is going to impede developing a relationship. Everyone wants someone who has time for them. But I've never stopped digging a guy because he didn't initiate physical contact right away, and there are all sorts of respectful, normal ways to make your interest clear. I went out with a guy who didn't kiss me until the 4th date (because it was a combination of him really liking me and being someone who takes things oddly slow in some ways; he was the man I actually went quickest into a relationship, and sex, with, ironically), but I absolutely knew he was romantically interested in me. I'm not saying be wishy washy. . . I'm saying build slowly, be direct, and be a respectful person who understands that escalation of any rapport (platonic or romantic) should be mutual.

 

I'm also saying no girl stops digging a guy who is communicating his interest in a productive, healthy way, if she is interested. And no amount of alphamale posturing gets a girl who doesn't find you attractive interested.

 

I too have a few females friends, I don't want to have sex with them though. I don't find them physically attractive, that's why I can be their friends.

 

I'm not saying you should take your male clique to take a hike, they should leave and not waste their time. If you tell them you're not interested and they stick around that's their problem.

 

I don't think you understand. It's not like I have a bunch of fawning dudes around me. This is a big, co-ed group. They're not wasting their time. . . they're interacting with their friends.

 

Have you seen Jack Nicholson? He's a stud, drop dead sexy. You're right, I have no idea why I ever bothered to use him as an example that physical attraction doesn't matter, only sexual attraction.

 

Of course, I've seen him. I don't live under a rock. I don't find him sexy in the least, but I wish you the best in terms of going after him.

 

If she thinks you're attractive, she'll go on a date with you. No getting towards a date. If she doesn't find you attractive, you find out then and there so you don't waste any time with her.

 

If she finds you attractive, she might go on a date with you, if you don't act like a jerk, an idiot, or a maniac. If she doesn't find you attractive, you're going to find that out. You don't have to find it out in the most uncomfortable, forward situation possible by making the girl uncomfortable.

 

Wow, you sound like such a fun type of gal! Man I really wish I could meet you in person and have interesting conversations like that.

 

Marxism eh? Did you get back in touch with your communistic roots in China where you also took those pictures of the Great Wall?

 

Okay I understand now... You're a communist and a lesbian. If I had known that I would've never argued with you in the first place! Silly me. :bunny:

 

Yeah, I'm neither a Communist nor a lesbian. (Though I have no problem with folks who are either.) I also talk about Jesus sometimes, but I'm not a Christian either. My friends and I are educated, well-traveled young adults, living abroad. Sometimes we talk about books and philosophy, including Marxism. I'm quite content to never meet you in person, frankly.

[Tyson7]

Update: I'm at barnes & noble right nowm I grab my coffee and head on over to the second floor only to find her here again. First thing that comes to mind, walk on over and sit by her. Only one slight porblem, theirs no chair at her table. FML lmao

[meerkat stew]

"This won't do, I can't possibly sit here and -not flirt- with you for hours again if there is no extra chair here, can you help me out and switch to this table over here with two chairs?"