Theists truly bother me

[VertexSquared]

Rational is indeed in the eye of the beholder especially where faith is conceerned. Where you view my belief in God as irrational, I might view your antagonistic attitude toward all people of faith more dangereous. Just an opinion...as your's is.

 

I don't have an antagonistic attitude towards theists as long as I don't hear about things. I have an antagonistic attitude towards those who use faith as a weapon. I have antagonism for faith itself when it causes needless suffering where suffering need not occur. And so, naturally, in a debate, it angers me when people try to defend theism.

 

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying that you prefer it when the theists with whom you debate keep CLOSED minds? And that, when you debate with them, your mind is ALSO closed?

 

If so, what is your purpose for debating with theists? And, who is doing any listening?

In any case, why engage in any debates that you know ahead of time will get your blood boiling?

 

Like Seinfeld said about people who go from a pony country to a non-pony country, "It doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, not at all. I agree that people should enter a debate with open minds. The problem is that when I disagree with a theist, they simply accuse me of not being open enough. For me, an open mind is not the issue. I fully understand and comprehend every theist argument in the book. I've read the Bible and was once a theist myself.

 

I wind up in debates because I frequently encounter situations where I see theism causing some sort of interference or problem -- so yes, perhaps selfishly, I try to show them a strong counterposition. I think deep down I know it's futile. But it bothers me at the same time how deluded so many people are. It's like they're brainwashed or intentionally ignorant, and it makes me immensely sad. It's the only subject that makes me want to literally cry.

[kdark]

Again, that is how you see it. I see a lot of ignorant butt monkeys using anything and everything to justify the domination, subjegation and annihiliation of humans because they have some difference they don't like.

So, no TRUE believer in God would commit such acts.

 

I agree with you that their are a lot of ignorant butt monkeys who will use any reason to commit terrible acts, but the majority of the time it is in the name of God. All throughout history.

 

I'm sick of the abortion violence, the wars, the genocides, the gay hating, and the terrorism. To me, religion is part of the problem, not the solution.

 

And I'm not saying all things are bad with religion, I know it brings happiness and comfort to many. But, like I said before, I can live comfortably and happy without, and I think the world would be better off without it.

[D-Lish]

First thing this morning, on my first day off in I don't know how long, I woke up to someone banging on the door. The dogs woke up, so it woke me up and I dragged my ass out of bed only to answer the door to two Mormon's waving literature at me, a bible in tote. Some idiot let them into our building...

 

I was so angry. I couldn't imagine being so ignorant of other people's privacy that I'd bang on their door to disturb them and spew my belief system in their face.

 

I don't give a crap what other people choose to belive in, but don't invite yourself to my doorstep and expect to be welcomed or accomodated.

[Ronni_W]

Because it is your God that is causing a lot of pain in the world, as I mentioned earlier.

Aren't you actually saying there that you do believe in God...at least in the one who is causing all the pain in the world?

 

In any case, I must be super-dense cos, on the assumption that you do not really believe in God: Are you saying that things done by humans, in the name of God, means God is actually causing it to happen? That there is no way possible that (some of) humanity's notions of God might be partially or totally screwed-up?

 

But. Since, for you, there is no God -- who or what do YOU think-believe is really causing or responsible for all the pain that we humans are experiencing?

[VertexSquared]

But. Since, for you, there is no God -- who or what do YOU think-believe is really causing or responsible for all the pain that we humans are experiencing?

 

People who misuse faith.

[Ronni_W]

I have an antagonistic attitude towards those who use faith as a weapon.

But isn't using "anti-faith" as a weapon equally upsetting? I'm meaning more on interpersonal levels, of course -- statements that go, "You're so ignorant/delusional for believing."

 

I certainly agree that religion has not been kind to humanity. But I put that on man's misuses, abuses and misinterpretations; I am not at all sure God, if there is one, had in mind all the things we do "in His Name".

 

For me, faith itself is neutral. It takes a human-conscious mind to create and sustain suffering.

Not unlike, the emotion of anger (for example) is neutral. It takes a person to act out anger, for anger to be harmful/destructive -- but it's still on the person and not on the emotion itself. If that makes sense?

 

No, not at all. I agree that people should enter a debate with open minds. The problem is that when I disagree with a theist, they simply accuse me of not being open enough.

Ah, yes. I see what you're saying there. I suppose, though, that their accusation is to counterpoint accusations that they are stupid/ignorant or brainwashed/deluded.

 

I wind up in debates because I frequently encounter situations where I see theism causing some sort of interference or problem

You mean like trying to talk people out of starting their own religious war or crusade or inquisition or somesuch? Cos, yeah...then you are fighting a good cause.

 

Quite honestly, it is often that I feeling like weeping, myself. And also precisely for the ignorance and illusions.

 

In any case, VS, a pleasure debating with you!

[Ronni_W]

People who misuse faith.

Yes, EXACTLY! Whether or not there is a God, it is still people causing the suffering. Not faith or lack of faith. Us, we are the people. We are causing our own pain and suffering. That was my point. (And that is why I weep.)

[White Dove]

Yes, EXACTLY! Whether or not there is a God, it is still people causing the suffering. Not faith or lack of faith. Us, we are the people. We are causing our own pain and suffering. That was my point. (And that is why I weep.)

 

This is so true. People are the cause of the worlds ills. And because of this, I don't see a lot of hope that our end goal isn't to destroy ourselves.

 

Very well said. If anything, I blame the people for all the bad things happening in the world. Bible, Quran etc -- they are there to guide us but if we, as people chose not to or take it differently then yes, PEOPLE are the cause of all the hatred, mishaps, violence etc.

 

(And that is MY personal opinion).

[D-Lish]

As a child, I remember being forced to go to church (Christian- united church)- and singing about "god loving every living creature"... Then being taught- UNLESS, you were a Catholic, a Jew, or a Muslim, etc.

 

Even as a young child I was able to discern the hypocrisy these adults were spewing. My Sunday school teacher asked my parents that I be removed from Sunday school because I asked too many questions, and apparantly that was bothersome.

[D-Lish]

I had the same experience as a child. It turned me off to religion for years. Then I discovered that I could have a relationship with God without the man made crap that turned me off in the first place. I am a Christian, not a religious person.

 

Turned me off for years myself. I used to run away from home EVERY Sunday morning, lol. I was 12, and we lived in the country and I would just run into the back fields until my parents left for church, haha. Eventually my dad intervened and just laid it on the line with my mother that I was old enough to make the choice about attending church or not.

 

I haven't stepped foot in one since.

 

I respect where you are coming from BNB.

[VertexSquared]

But isn't using "anti-faith" as a weapon equally upsetting? I'm meaning more on interpersonal levels, of course -- statements that go, "You're so ignorant/delusional for believing."

 

I certainly agree that religion has not been kind to humanity. But I put that on man's misuses, abuses and misinterpretations; I am not at all sure God, if there is one, had in mind all the things we do "in His Name".

 

For me, faith itself is neutral. It takes a human-conscious mind to create and sustain suffering.

Not unlike, the emotion of anger (for example) is neutral. It takes a person to act out anger, for anger to be harmful/destructive -- but it's still on the person and not on the emotion itself. If that makes sense?

 

Ah, yes. I see what you're saying there. I suppose, though, that their accusation is to counterpoint accusations that they are stupid/ignorant or brainwashed/deluded.

 

You mean like trying to talk people out of starting their own religious war or crusade or inquisition or somesuch? Cos, yeah...then you are fighting a good cause.

 

Quite honestly, it is often that I feeling like weeping, myself. And also precisely for the ignorance and illusions.

 

In any case, VS, a pleasure debating with you!

 

I am fine with people believing as long as they have a good reason for it. On a general note I really dislike it when people hold opinions and support things without understanding both sides to the argument. A really basic example is the common Creationist misunderstanding of how evolution works.

[D-Lish]

I completely understand where you are coming from and respect your decision. I am sorry that you had that experience. I don't believe that is how it was supposed to be for either of us. Unfortunatly we as humans can't help but put our 2 cents worth in and mess up the whole deal for a lot of us. Again I am sorry. Be blessed.

 

Hey, back at you BNB

 

I am fine with people believing as long as they have a good reason for it. On a general note I really dislike it when people hold opinions and support things without understanding both sides to the argument. A really basic example is the common Creationist misunderstanding of how evolution works.

 

I have a big problem with people that claim so vehemently "THIS IS WHAT I AM", but they have never done any research. I respect people that have come to a conclusion because they have researched all sides.

[VertexSquared]

Are you theist or atheist yourself, out of curiosity?

[D-Lish]

Are you theist or atheist yourself, out of curiosity?

 

Me? I am an Atheist.

 

Oh yes, through and through. But also a Comparative Religion Major in university.

 

I grew up in an environment where I was critisized for not having faith, so I went the extra mile to research it. I think that's important for everyone. Step outside of your box before defining your box.

 

Yes, I said box.

[kdark]

This is so true. People are the cause of the worlds ills. And because of this, I don't see a lot of hope that our end goal isn't to destroy ourselves.

 

That's very sad, because we are the ones who got us into this mess. No God or Jesus, or whoever is going to come save us. It is up to us to get ourselves out of this mess.

 

Don't give up hope on humans, yet!

[kdark]

Aren't you actually saying there that you do believe in God...at least in the one who is causing all the pain in the world?

 

In any case, I must be super-dense cos, on the assumption that you do not really believe in God: Are you saying that things done by humans, in the name of God, means God is actually causing it to happen? That there is no way possible that (some of) humanity's notions of God might be partially or totally screwed-up?

 

But. Since, for you, there is no God -- who or what do YOU think-believe is really causing or responsible for all the pain that we humans are experiencing?

 

No, God is not causing these things to happen. It is whoever invented this notion of God, and everyone who is perpetuating His existence that is causing all of this religious violence in the world. Doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, or any other sect.

 

Humanity's notion of God isn't screwed up, because humanity invented the notion to begin with. IMO, God and the gods were apparitions created by humans in order to observe, judge, and punish, because human beings have an innate desire to be observed, judged, and punished. Heaven and hell is a perfect example of this judgement and punishment. And all violence committed in the name of God is usually committed to secure a favorable judgement when one leaves this life into the next. It is this fear of being judged unfavorably that is perpetuating all of the gay hate, the terrorism, the wars, the abortion violence, and the genocide, because all believers are afraid to go against the word of their God, or what they are told by others is the word of their God. Bottom line, the entire notion of God itself is what is the root of the problem.

 

And I think most of the pain and suffering in the world is more socio-economic in origin than "evil people" in origin. If people were disease free, had enough money to live, had access to clean food and shelter, and were safe, most of the crime would disappear in the world. The poor places are always the ones with the most crime. And they are also the places where religious violence occurs as well.

[JamesM]

A really basic example is the common Creationist misunderstanding of how evolution works.

 

What is the common misunderstanding?

[aerogurl87]

Couldn't it also be argued that the innate need for humans to believe in some higher power or authority, whether that be supenatural or governmental rule, is enough reason to believe in the possibility that a God or creator could exist?I have a hard time believing we just exist to exist and there's no reason for us inhabiting this planet though, and that's why although I'm agnostic, I think of myself as being more of an agnostic theist. I think our purpose on Earth is greater than just reproducing and living, or maybe that's my humanistic egocentrism kicking in. Also, when you look back in history, all the stories of various religions have some of the same themes. Reward and punishment, salvation and damnation, and the list goes on. Maybe it's a big coincidence, I don't know, but I don't think the possibility of God being real should be completely shoved out the picture as well as the possibility that there is no God.

[VertexSquared]

Couldn't it also be argued that the innate need for humans to believe in some higher power or authority, whether that be supenatural or governmental rule, is enough reason to believe in the possibility that a God or creator could exist?I have a hard time believing we just exist to exist and there's no reason for us inhabiting this planet though, and that's why although I'm agnostic, I think of myself as being more of an agnostic theist. I think our purpose on Earth is greater than just reproducing and living, or maybe that's my humanistic egocentrism kicking in. Also, when you look back in history, all the stories of various religions have some of the same themes. Reward and punishment, salvation and damnation, and the list goes on. Maybe it's a big coincidence, I don't know, but I don't think the possibility of God being real should be completely shoved out the picture as well as the possibility that there is no God.

 

We tend to look around us at the complexity of life and the cosmos in awe. It's natural to want to attribute this awesomeness to a creator or higher power. It's an emotional appeal. The problem is that people don't consider that the universe may very well be a meaningless place objectively. "Meaning" is entirely what a human makes for him/herself. I can be starving to death, but no matter how dire the matter may be, I cannot wish a stone to be made of cheese. To wish that your life has some sort of supernatural meaning is a desire tied into that initial statement of awe.

 

If you are truly to look at both sides of the coin, you need to acknowledge the possibility that the universe may have no greater plan. The universe we live in is exactly consistent with that.

[VertexSquared]

What is the common misunderstanding?

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

[VertexSquared]

Edit: Sorry, wrong thread

[aerogurl87]

 

If you are truly to look at both sides of the coin, you need to acknowledge the possibility that the universe may have no greater plan. The universe we live in is exactly consistent with that.

 

I do acknowledge that that is also a possibility, that's why I'm agnostic. But at the same time, I look at the complexity of the universe and how it works and I think there's something a bit too complex about it for it all to be just a big coincidence that everything fell into place, like so. The fact that humans have an innate desire to live forever is also puzzling to me if we're all wired to die. The biggest mysteries in this life, for me at least, aren't the physical, but the psychological desires and tendencies that spread across humanity, transcending time, distance, and culture.

[VertexSquared]

I do acknowledge that that is also a possibility, that's why I'm agnostic. But at the same time, I look at the complexity of the universe and how it works and I think there's something a bit too complex about it for it all to be just a big coincidence that everything fell into place, like so. The fact that humans have an innate desire to live forever is also puzzling to me if we're all wired to die. The biggest mysteries in this life, for me at least, aren't the physical, but the psychological desires and tendencies that spread across humanity, transcending time, distance, and culture.

 

Complexity has already been explained by concepts like evolution. We have a desire to live because if we had a desire to die, we wouldn't be here. Despite such a desire, we're still bound by our physical nature, which is unfortunately one where we cannot live forever.

 

Psychological tendencies and desires are also products of evolution.

[aerogurl87]

Complexity has already been explained by concepts like evolution. We have a desire to live because if we had a desire to die, we wouldn't be here. Despite such a desire, we're still bound by our physical nature, which is unfortunately one where we cannot live forever.

 

Psychological tendencies and desires are also products of evolution.

 

Ok and see this is where we come at a crossroads where we disagree. I do not believe evolution is a fact, as much as I don't believe creationism is a fact. Both are theories on how life began. I think when you look at the similarities in both methods your able to get to a more accurate picture of how things work.

[Trojan John]

Ok and see this is where we come at a crossroads where we disagree. I do not believe evolution is a fact, as much as I don't believe creationism is a fact. Both are theories on how life began. I think when you look at the similarities in both methods your able to get to a more accurate picture of how things work.

 

Evolution is a fact for all the reasons that creationism is not.