Theists truly bother me

[VertexSquared]

I enjoy debate, and I especially enjoy debating religion. But I have become exponentially frustrated. Every theist I ever debate seems to be exactly the same. They all seem to possess the same degree of ignorance, the same inclination to misunderstand arguments, and oftentimes they don't even fully know their own material that they supposedly believe in.

 

There's just so much evidence and understanding out there and takes a massive dump on theism (especially Creationism) that I just cannot fathom anymore why theists choose to disregard and ignore it.

 

Yes, this post may be vitriolic, but I'm ranting a bit.

[Ronni_W]

Rant away, VS -- sometimes it is healthier than a 40-day cleanse...and more satisfying, too

They all seem to possess the same degree of ignorance, the same inclination to misunderstand arguments, and oftentimes they don't even fully know their own material that they supposedly believe in.

I know it's just a rant. But the thing is that your counterparts are probably walking away from conversations/debates with you, with similar thought-judgments in their heads.

 

No matter the topic of discussion, it is so frustrating when people run out of "evidence to support" their beliefs and positions, though -- one starts to hear, "You always have to have the last word; You're so competitive; You always need to be the winner!" <wah wah wah>

 

But. Gotta love Life for its rich diversity, yes? At least it makes us think.

[VertexSquared]

Yes, sometimes people leave the arguments, but usually it's because they're getting hammered. The moment I start dismantling religion with extremely ironclad arguments, they bail and stick their fingers in their ears. It drives me insane.

[quankanne]

honey, it'd drive anyone insane when others refuse to consider the point we're trying to so eloquently make!!!

 

as a believer, it's hard to come up with concrete "reasons" for our faith, when it's something visceral, you know? And choosing to follow a particular religion, with it's rules and such, reeks of insanity to someone who cannot experience what we do ...

[JamesM]

Yes, sometimes people leave the arguments, but usually it's because they're getting hammered. The moment I start dismantling religion with extremely ironclad arguments, they bail and stick their fingers in their ears. It drives me insane.

 

Perhaps the fact that they are "leaving" has nothing to do with your alleged "ironclad" arguments but instead with your ironclad attitude that doesn't respectfully consider their view points.

 

Having debated numerous atheists, I can say that there is a big different between an atheist who can respectfully consider viewpoints differing from his or her own and an atheist who simply considers any theist ignorant and blind.

 

As was said by Ronni, you may be leaving the same impression with the theists and they decide that rather than get into an all out fight/debate which is counterproductive, they instead simply walk away. It is not because you are "dismantling" their beliefs, but it is because they recognize that any discussion will be futile.

[Feelin Frisky]

I enjoy debate, and I especially enjoy debating religion. But I have become exponentially frustrated. Every theist I ever debate seems to be exactly the same. They all seem to possess the same degree of ignorance, the same inclination to misunderstand arguments, and oftentimes they don't even fully know their own material that they supposedly believe in.

 

There's just so much evidence and understanding out there and takes a massive dump on theism (especially Creationism) that I just cannot fathom anymore why theists choose to disregard and ignore it.

 

Yes, this post may be vitriolic, but I'm ranting a bit.

 

 

You have an instant friend and ally in me. I've stopped referring to myself as an atheist. People who haven't address all of that god crap, walk through life in and invisible placenta made of fear and conventionalized mental illness--ego centrality in the extreme. To make myself a target of such foolish disgust and hatred is like stepping into the fly paper of contagious dementia. They are ignorant and/or nuts. Theists may be a majority but I think one is still a bit short of being free of that mattering by defining themselves as an atheist. And I'm past the breaking point of debating religion. It's sacred cow shi+.

[quankanne]

don't hold back, frisky :laugh:

[VertexSquared]

Perhaps the fact that they are "leaving" has nothing to do with your alleged "ironclad" arguments but instead with your ironclad attitude that doesn't respectfully consider their view points.

 

Having debated numerous atheists, I can say that there is a big different between an atheist who can respectfully consider viewpoints differing from his or her own and an atheist who simply considers any theist ignorant and blind.

 

As was said by Ronni, you may be leaving the same impression with the theists and they decide that rather than get into an all out fight/debate which is counterproductive, they instead simply walk away. It is not because you are "dismantling" their beliefs, but it is because they recognize that any discussion will be futile.

 

To me, "respectfully acknowledging other viewpoints" is like trying to entertain the notion that 1+1=3. It's just full of contradiction and error. It's usually always due to dismantling (usually in the form of unveiling the fact that the theist is not familiar with evolution, the implications with respect to events like abiogenesis, quantum mechanics, and so forth).

[quankanne]

not necessarily. While I might be interested in what you want to share, I'm going to mentally shut down and physically walk away if your delivery isn't conducive to open dialogue or open thinking.

[Ronni_W]

To me, "respectfully acknowledging other viewpoints" is like trying to entertain the notion that 1+1=3.

It's not nearly the same, though.

Consider that, at some point, entertaining the notion that the earth is anything other than flat was also believed to be just full of contradiction and error.

 

We can prove what 1 + 1 equals, and also 95,234,853 multiplied by 68,756 -- we have the technology for that. But there is currently no scientific way to disprove or to prove "god". Evolution does not, IMO, prove that theists are out to lunch. Perhaps for some theists it's an either/or, but not for all.

 

What if quantum physics is going to prove the existence of "god" -- whatever it, she or he may ultimately prove to be? What if "god" is going to turn out to be the purest and highest form of science, of the type that we (humans) can't even begin to imagine with our current limited minds? What if the earth is NOT flat?

[Feelin Frisky]

don't hold back, frisky :laugh:

 

I was.

[VertexSquared]

It's not nearly the same, though.

Consider that, at some point, entertaining the notion that the earth is anything other than flat was also believed to be just full of contradiction and error.

 

We can prove what 1 + 1 equals, and also 95,234,853 multiplied by 68,756 -- we have the technology for that. But there is currently no scientific way to disprove or to prove "god". Evolution does not, IMO, prove that theists are out to lunch. Perhaps for some theists it's an either/or, but not for all.

 

What if quantum physics is going to prove the existence of "god" -- whatever it, she or he may ultimately prove to be? What if "god" is going to turn out to be the purest and highest form of science, of the type that we (humans) can't even begin to imagine with our current limited minds? What if the earth is NOT flat?

 

If quantum physics somehow proves a God, then atheists would have to factor God into the equation. However, this is not the case with anything we've learned scientifically.

 

While evolution does not prove or disprove God, it more than adequately explains the complexities of life and how we all came to be, biologically speaking. We know that nothing on this earth was "created" intelligently -- but rather deterministically formed through a variety of processes. It boggles my mind that so many theists try to hold onto Creationist views in the present age when all the evidence slams it in the face ad infinitum.

 

To those that have a knowledge of quantum theory, you would also be able to understand how "nothing" doesn't exist on a quantum scale and what it means for "something" to come out of "nothing." There is some very sound explanation resultant of Einstein's equations regarding relativity that help elucidate the nature of the Big Bang, for instance.

[Ronni_W]

While evolution does not prove or disprove God, it more than adequately explains the complexities of life and how we all came to be, biologically speaking. We know that nothing on this earth was "created" intelligently -- but rather deterministically formed through a variety of processes.

Sorry if I'm not understanding. Are you saying that you believe that there is nothing (or very little) "intelligent" about evolution?

 

For the broader picture, what, for you, is "proof"? Does it have to be able to be measurable by some type of scientific instrument, or can it be an individual's personal experience as measured by his/her five physical senses?

 

That is, what makes scientific instrument readings more "ironclad" than physical sense readings? Though I totally get that you're also (only?) referring to persons whose beliefs in/about "god" are based solely on faith and childhood inputs, without benefit of any "proof" of any kind, personal or scientific.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Debating a concept is rarely a good idea.

[Ronni_W]

Debating a concept is rarely a good idea.

It often does broaden my own understanding and perspective, though. And it can also be fun...with the 'right' people. That is, those who don't take themselves too seriously, are respectful, and have open minds.

[LucreziaBorgia]

It often does broaden my own understanding and perspective, though. And it can also be fun...with the 'right' people. That is, those who don't take themselves too seriously, are respectful, and have open minds.

 

Completely agree. Back in the AOL days, there was a chat room called God Is A Myth that I used to hang around in and let me tell you - it was like one big circular argument every day - sometimes fun, sometimes boring but it always came down to one thing: the only thing either side could convince the other of is that they firmly believed or didn't.

 

Every once in a while you'd get some level heads on both sides who really made for an intelligent (and entertaining) debate.

[Taramere]

I enjoy debate, and I especially enjoy debating religion. But I have become exponentially frustrated. Every theist I ever debate seems to be exactly the same. They all seem to possess the same degree of ignorance, the same inclination to misunderstand arguments, and oftentimes they don't even fully know their own material that they supposedly believe in.

 

There's just so much evidence and understanding out there and takes a massive dump on theism (especially Creationism) that I just cannot fathom anymore why theists choose to disregard and ignore it.

 

You probably can't fathom it because you haven't walked in their shoes, felt what they feel...and, perhaps, experienced whatever comfort and peace their religion offers them.

 

I agree that some people are bible bashers who seek to impose their religious views onto the laws, customs and practices of a society. I agree that it's correct and necessary to prevent that kind of imposition.

 

However, others simply have a faith which they practice peacefully and unobtrusively. Something which provides them with a sense of comfort, happiness and community (if they attend a church), without wrecking their physical and mental health.

 

You're presenting yourself as a logical and rational person. What is the logic and rationality in trying to argue those people out of beliefs that bring a number of positives - and no obvious negatives - into their lives?

 

Yes, sometimes people leave the arguments, but usually it's because they're getting hammered. The moment I start dismantling religion with extremely ironclad arguments, they bail and stick their fingers in their ears. It drives me insane.

 

Knowing when it's pointless and possibly counterproductive to keep slamming another person with your disagreement (about, in this case, their faith) requires logic and rationality. Possibly in greater doses than are required to present the usual atheist arguments that must be littered on thousands of message boards by now.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Taramere

[marlena]

You probably can't fathom it because you haven't walked in their shoes, felt what they feel...and, perhaps, experienced whatever comfort and peace their religion offers them.

 

Exactly. Why would anyone want to talk a person out of his beliefs? If it offers them comfort and peace, then, I'd say it is a good thing. As long as they don't forcefully and aggressively try to push their beliefs down other people's throat, I say more power to them! In fact, there are plenty of times when I wish I had an unfailing creed to help me get through hard times. I have tried many times to adopt a faith but the truth is logic always gets in the way.

 

Anyway, both sides have to respect eachother's stance on the issue. That's what's important. Respect. And acceptance.

[sb129]

I used to be an angry atheist. My H still is one.

 

Yesterday, some more JWs knocked on my door, and instead of rolling my eyes and saying "here we go", I listened to what they had to say for a few minutes.

They presented themselves pretty well, they were older men, and they had a list of questions that they showed me. The questions were about stress, giving meaning to your life, that kind of thing.

 

They also told me that the Bible was a good resource when trying to seek answers or fulfilment.

I replied that I thought the Bible was full of contradictions- and they took that on the chin and asked if I wanted to discuss that further.

To which I replied that I was sorry, but that I sat firmly on the opposite side of the fence to them, and I didn't want to waste their time, but hoped they had a good day anyway. They smiled and wished me the same.

 

It actually felt alot better to have a civil and light hearted conversation than to send them away with a flea in their ear like I did the last time.

 

Maybe next time I will invite them in.....might be interesting to hear more.

 

I also drove past a church today and there were alot of people taking musical instruments etc in, and I felt a little bit jealous of the obvious communal nature of their activities. While I am not about to change my opinions just so i can have company on a boring Saturday afternoon, I am becoming more sympathetic to WHY people make religion such a big part of their lives.

 

And I have no problem with that.

[marlena]

I used to be an angry atheist. My H still is one.

 

Yesterday, some more JWs knocked on my door, and instead of rolling my eyes and saying "here we go", I listened to what they had to say for a few minutes.

They presented themselves pretty well, they were older men, and they had a list of questions that they showed me. The questions were about stress, giving meaning to your life, that kind of thing.

 

They also told me that the Bible was a good resource when trying to seek answers or fulfilment.

I replied that I thought the Bible was full of contradictions- and they took that on the chin and asked if I wanted to discuss that further.

To which I replied that I was sorry, but that I sat firmly on the opposite side of the fence to them, and I didn't want to waste their time, but hoped they had a good day anyway. They smiled and wished me the same.

 

It actually felt alot better to have a civil and light hearted conversation than to send them away with a flea in their ear like I did the last time.

 

Maybe next time I will invite them in.....might be interesting to hear more.

 

I also drove past a church today and there were alot of people taking musical instruments etc in, and I felt a little bit jealous of the obvious communal nature of their activities. While I am not about to change my opinions just so i can have company on a boring Saturday afternoon, I am becoming more sympathetic to WHY people make religion such a big part of their lives.

 

And I have no problem with that.

 

Interesting, sb. My neighbours are JW. It's true that they do try very hard to proselytize people, something I don't particularly like. However, they are, as a rule, very respectful and polite although adamant as mules.

 

Anyway, the woman would come down and give me all this literature. I never turned her away. I would accept and read it with much interest. Why not? It's good to know things. We even had a few chats.

 

I see nothing wrong with people making religion a big part of their lives as long as that religion does not advocate violence and aggression like both Christianity and Islam do. The scenes in there holy books make my hair stand on end.

 

I think that's why if I were to go with anything it would be buddhism. But even that is too controlling for me.

 

I think I'll come up with my own brand of religion.

[Malenfant]

thing is, there's a difference between having a conversation about religion and having a debate.

As soon as it gets into one person trying to change the other persons mind about something, its not an exchange of thoughts and feelings anymore, but an attempt from either viewpoint to show the other how what they think can't be true.

 

when it comes to religion, atheists are generally about fact, theists are generally about faith.

Thats not to say that atheists only believe in what they see, nor does it mean that theists disregard facts.

 

It just means that when it comes to the issue of faith, the two are so opposite in viewpoint that it isnt possible to 'debate' the issue.

 

The thing that annoys me is when a person tries to change someone else's mind about faith.

Our opinions and feelings are what makes us, they're totally free, they're every persons right to have, and unless they are hurting other people there is no need to justify them to anyone.

 

i understand wanting to argue back if someone is trying to convert or argue with you. there was a time when, under these circumstances I would have entered into such a debate, but now I wouldnt bother as I know its pointless. not because theists are closed minded to facts, but because its not fair to undermine someone else's views.

Just because i dont agree isnt a justifiable reason to try and change their mind.

[VertexSquared]

I think faith is inherently dangerous and yields a lower max optima than atheism is capable of, but that's another story.

 

I am not bothered by peaceful theists who live their lives rationally. It's just the debate that gets my blood boiling. It's the warped justifications. It's when I see faith getting in the way of people's lives or causing them to act irrationally in a circumstance where everyone would have been better off without the theistic underpinning.

 

Regarding debate, "Keep an open mind," to me, when concerning such a debate, is like saying "Alright, what I am about to tell you is completely BS and logically incoherent, but I want you to just concede and accept it anyway as valid rebuttal." It's like telling someone to keep an open mind before you try to persuade them that the Tooth Fairy exists.

 

To date, I've yet to hear a single theistic argument that has been reasonably well-argued.

Edited June 27, 2010 by VertexSquared

[kdark]

I've always wanted to know what theists think about the Xenu Space Opera that is a core belief of Scientology. You know, the whole thing about the evil Galactic overlord Xenu who transported humans to earth billions of years ago and blew them up with hydrogen bombs? And that all evil in the world is caused by the spirits of these people called "thetans", infecting the human body.

 

As crazy as that sounds, that is what I think whenever I hear the story of genesis from the bible, as an atheist.

 

And when we atheists always go on about logic and rationality, we aren't talking about how personal and helpful religion has been for your life, we have trouble getting over the leap of faith it takes to believe in stories such as that. I understand that theists have had feelings and experiences that to them, can only be explained by God. But when you ask an atheist to respect the validity of stories such as Noah's Ark, Xenu, and Moses, it can be kind of hard for us.

 

And when you couple that with the fact that almost all the sectarian violence in the middle east, The Israeli Palestinian conflict, and most terror attacks are conducted to day in the name of religion, a world without religion sounds like a better place.

 

The way I see it, I can live happily without a god, why can't you?

[Ronni_W]

Regarding debate, "Keep an open mind," to me, when concerning such a debate, is like saying "Alright, what I am about to tell you is completely BS and logically incoherent, but I want you to just concede and accept it anyway as valid rebuttal."

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying that you prefer it when the theists with whom you debate keep CLOSED minds? And that, when you debate with them, your mind is ALSO closed?

 

If so, what is your purpose for debating with theists? And, who is doing any listening?

In any case, why engage in any debates that you know ahead of time will get your blood boiling?

 

Like Seinfeld said about people who go from a pony country to a non-pony country, "It doesn't make any sense!"

[kdark]

There is your answer. It is the way you see it. If you can live happily without a God, why can't I live happily with God? That's how I see it.

 

Because it is your God that is causing a lot of pain in the world, as I mentioned earlier.